1) Marauders are T1,5 which means they are higher in tech compared to Zealots and a Marauder does in fact lose against a Zealot without concussive shells. Also a stalker can get away when a Marauder does not have concussive shells. 2) Marauders already get -20HP when they stim - this should be completely fine 3) A cooldown for concussive shells (how much do you have in mind) would probably really harsh nerf, because thats CS is what actually keeps terran alive pretty much I think. 4) ...? So you want to make Marauders 3 supply.. I mean... really? 5) I also think its fine
I serioulsy don't think there's anything wrong with the Marauder in battles, because in mid or lategame its actually not superior to a Protoss army with LOOOTS of AoE damage. Terran just needs the marauder because as I described earlier we really LACK alternatives which are also mobile OR not super fragile. If you can offer such an alternative you might change the marauder - but not earlier than that.
So as you can see, its a bit trickier especially because Zerg kind of has no Problem at all against Bio / Marauders and Terran basically needs to rely on Mech against good Zergs..
the main thing I'd like about this change would be giving Reavers more of a purpose in the mid and late game. Right now, Marauders are just as good at base-wrecking as Reavers are, and a helluva lot easier to incorporate into an army. If Reavers were the undisputed "base wreckers" of Terran bio, they'd serve more of a purpose even after the timeframe for their early harassment had passed.
On September 12 2010 12:05 Nightfall.589 wrote: 6 range in SC2 = 5 range in BW. Ranges are different. Marines don't cost gas. Marines don't require tech labs. Zerg don't get movement speed bonus on creep in BW. Marauders don't do too hot against lings. BW infantry upgrades are pretty critical.
The only relevant point here is that there were no Medevacs in BW... But that's not what zerg are having problems with.
Let's not forget that in SC2, 2 +1 marines have the same DPS against a building as a +1 marauder. Suppose you do make buildings lose their armory type... Marines will still kill your expansions just as quick.
Its much easier to kill marines before they kill your nexus. DPS doesn't matter as long as you can shut it down quickly.
Only building I have a problem with having the Armored tag is Spore Crawlers... Void Rays make those things useless.
TBH though I'm actually a bit more angry that Command Center, Barracks, Factory and Starport aren't massive. Corruptor definitely deserves +dmg vs those things
On September 12 2010 13:45 G.s)NarutO wrote: I will point out what I think of your suggestions
1) Marauders are T1,5 which means they are higher in tech compared to Zealots and a Marauder does in fact lose against a Zealot without concussive shells. Also a stalker can get away when a Marauder does not have concussive shells. 2) Marauders already get -20HP when they stim - this should be completely fine 3) A cooldown for concussive shells (how much do you have in mind) would probably really harsh nerf, because thats CS is what actually keeps terran alive pretty much I think. 4) ...? So you want to make Marauders 3 supply.. I mean... really? 5) I also think its fine
I serioulsy don't think there's anything wrong with the Marauder in battles, because in mid or lategame its actually not superior to a Protoss army with LOOOTS of AoE damage. Terran just needs the marauder because as I described earlier we really LACK alternatives which are also mobile OR not super fragile. If you can offer such an alternative you might change the marauder - but not earlier than that.
So as you can see, its a bit trickier especially because Zerg kind of has no Problem at all against Bio / Marauders and Terran basically needs to rely on Mech against good Zergs..
Are you joking?
You don't want marauders to be nerfed because in your opinion, with CS they have no counters? Does that seem to make even the most remote amount of sense? Does that seem balanced at all? Terrans have plenty of options to "keep them alive." I player massing marauders should be punished by having units that easily counter it (for their lack of variety) but they don't because no unit truly counters the marauder except more marauders. They're cheap and easy to mass, which would indicate a balance issue to a rational person.
That said, the issue isn't about concussive shell here, because it's about how quickly they kill buildings.
And I already explained the points about killing buildings. Marauders are easily massed which is true, but its because Terran lacks other options. If you can show me how to successfully beat Protoss without Marauders please go ahead.
If you can't counter it - its your fault. Terran vs Protoss right now is fine besides the early game, which gets really hard for Protoss since Marauder / the ability for Terran to drop early can shut down pretty much anything Protoss can do, but in lategame Storm+Chargelots or even Colossi.. / Voidray Zealot or anything like that do perfectly fine against Marauders.
Roaches are 75/25 and no one cries about them. Also Marauders lose 20HP due to stimpack which makes them 105HP. CS keeps away chargelots and we usually already have to stim multiple times.. so any PvT I recently saw which went to lategame where the Protoss wasn't completely screwed early on was either really even or won by the Protoss. I as Terran myself would really love more diversity, but its simply that other unit combinations are much more fragile or immobile.
Chargelots + Storm really doesn't do shitty against marauders and you can mix in Colossi, Stalker/Sentry or whatever you like since you are saying "massing marauders" you are speaking of 6+ barracks which leads to me thinking you are speaking of a mid or early late game WHICH! would mean any good Protoss is on 3 or more base.. leading to him having more than a few HT + Zealots.
Check out Socke.. he's playing well against Terran also defending drops really well with feedback + Storm or warping in a few Zealots. Obviously the damage output of Marauders is insanely high when you leave them unharmed, but if you for example warp in 2 zealots you get:
1) time to save your building 2) he probably won't kill the building without any casualties
Even if he kills a techbuilding and saves 1 Marauder, he still lost 300/75 in the process, not saying its disadvantageous for Terran, but its not like you drop 4 marauders and always get away with it losing nothing.
Terran just needs the marauder because as I described earlier we really LACK alternatives which are also mobile OR not super fragile. If you can offer such an alternative you might change the marauder - but not earlier than that.
And that's where I disagree with you. Having to choose between mobile-but-fragile and immobile-and-strong is what defines the Terrans. Giving the Terrans the ability to have both in one unit is the problem.
I as Terran myself would really love more diversity, but its simply that other unit combinations are much more fragile or immobile.
That's the point. Terran strategy is built around Marauders because it is their best unit. It has all strengths and no weaknesses. Because of that, it is not a good unit.
Terrans as a race could probably function just fine without Marauders. Obviously certain avenues of attack and tech patterns would be off limits. But if it makes for a better game overall... why not?
I'm not saying Marauders need to go. Any one of the following solutions could make them reasonable:
1: Remove Stim.
2: Reduce their HP to 75.
3: Reduce their damage to something like 7+7 or 6+6.
4: Make Stim cost them 50 Hp.
Why?
Well, what is the Marauder supposed to do? It's supposed to be a low-tier tanking unit that can also serve as an anti-armored attacker.
Removing stim still allows it to be this. Yes, the Marauder will be out-DoT'd by the Marine, even against the Marauder's preferred targets. But they'll still contribute to a battle with their concussive shells, which helps either slow down incoming attackers or keep escaping units from escaping the ball. And they'll still contribute their tanking abilities.
A lower Hp Marauder can still tank. Why? Because they still have more Hp than a Marine, but they don't take up the space of two Marines. And their concussive shells has a negative effect on the enemy, one that Marines are well-suited to exploiting. In short, the Marauder does not need to use their Hp to effectively tank.
Lower damage is obvious. They can still stim effectively for free, but their damage output is lowered. This makes Marines more cost-effective, but the tanking abilities of Marauders makes them vital in MMM balls. They would still be important, but you wouldn't build as many. The Marines would clearly be the damage dealers, with the Marauders simply helping out by being meatshields and slowers.
The increased stim cost still allows Marauders to be useful. But it makes stim actually cost something. -20 Hp for stim, on a unit with 125 Hp is basically free. It's not even 1/6th of their total Hp. Marines need an upgrade to get even that close. This way, when you stim with Marauders, it hurts. You're saying, "I don't want this unit to tank anymore; I want it to deal damage now." It's like Siege Mode. You go from Tank to Mobile Attacker. It's still versatile, but it can't be both Tank and Mobile Attacker at the same time like it can now.
On August 14 2010 04:13 Ndugu wrote: This is a more nuanced issue than it sounds like.
For example, I agree that buildings go down too fast under certain circumstances-- stimmed marauders being the best example. It is just ridiculous sometimes.
In fact, I think most of the time people bring this up, they're talking about Marauders. Zerg units, beyond Ultras, which are meant to, don't deal bonus to armored and therefore down wtfpwn buildings. Banelings do, but that is by design and has limitations.
As for Protoss units, only immortals really do that well against buildings. However, they are very limited by range, speed, etc. Getting two immortals in a warp prism and doing an immortal drop, imho, doesn't need a nerf. Its a cool strategy that is barely worth doing for the risk.
The more I think about this issue, the only problem I or anyone has is with how quickly stimmed marauders wtfpwn your buildings. I would be all right if a Terran massed reapers, and did a surprise drop to wtfpwn my buildings. But massing your generic, good, well-rounded ground unit for a greater effect? Too much reward with Zero risk.
Roaches are insane at taking down buildings for their cost.
All races have these units - marauders, immortals and roaches.
Immortals are expensive and slow, roaches have less range and no stim.
Yep and you can only fit 2 immortals in a slower warp prism which doesn't heal the immortal either. The Marauder is simply ridiculous - 2 stims and it just absoloutely and utterly ruins a base fast. I realise this isn't Warcraft 3 we're talking here but I've been saying since the beta - buildings go down too fast in this game as is, let alone with marauders in it.
On September 12 2010 02:33 Bibdy wrote: Immortal: (50-1) / 1.45 = 33.8 DPS to buildings = 8.45DPS per supply Zealot: (8-1) * 2 / 1.2 = 11.6 DPS to buildings = 5.83 DPS per supply Stalker = (14-1) / 1.44 = 9.03 DPS to buildings = 4.52 DPS per supply
Marauder: (20-1) / 1.5 = 12.667 DPS to buildings = 6.33 DPS per supply Stimmed Marauder: (20-1) / 1 = 19 DPS to buildings = 9.5 DPS per supply Marine: (6-1) / 0.8608 = 5.8 DPS to buildings = 5.8 DPS per supply Stimmed Marine: (6-1) / 0.574 = 8.71 DPS per supply
I did it by supply to distinguish how much raw DPS you can fit into a transport that can only carry 8 supply.
Do Terran drops need to be that strong, that early in a game? An Immortal is a dedicated building buster (its crap at everything else, after all) and yet
A) it still does less damage per drop-slot in a drop fashion B) requires 55s a pop, out of the same building constructing the dropping unit at 50s, taking forever to construct the drop C) an OC or CC can just Lift-Off...
I don't think its too much to ask for a cheap upgrade to the Medivac (raising it from carrying 4 supply to 8) to delay that kind of damage potential being thrown at your Nexus. Its a powerful tool and really cool, but its one of those things that can get thrown at you WAY too soon.
Any Terran who thinks an Immortal drop is anywhere near as deadly as a 1/1/1 MM drop is in an unbelievable amount of denial.
Thank you for providing the precise figures. Based on the position in the tech tree, I'm going to have to completely agree with you.
NicolBolas , your suggestions are terrible and only a person without any knowledge of the game would suggest Marauders with 75HP, -50HP for stim or likes of it. I'm sorry but if you cannot see, that the Marauder NEEDS to be as strong as it is to give Terran ANY chance to win games - you're being ignorant and not more than one of the other crybabies.
You want a 75 Marauder? Or -50HP for stim, so chargezealot + Storm or Colossi basically just rip through it without any chance for Terran? If you use tanks, which are 3 supply and ridiculously expensive and also getting nerfed you can't really fight the really mobile and diverse armies of Protoss or Zerg.
Its not Broodwar and its not the "immobile but strong" Terran. Tanks are still strong yes, but due to the damage output in Starcraft 2 they also die in seconds getting caught offguard. And now please don't tell me "then you have to be more careful about them" because thats not how it would worse, since Protoss just has WAY more ways to be really mobile or put pressure on you and makes you force to move.. obviously you can still play lots of Tanks and they are strong for defence, but setting up offence or even fighting (not even talking about that you always have to go to lategame for it) off the kinds of voidrays is nearly impossible.
The marauder is meant to be a strong anti-armor (not unarmored) combat fighter that gives Terran the power to keep up. Uusually that unit would be the tank, but the marauder is nearly better in any way. Its more mobile, needs less effort to be used, is cheaper and costs less supply. If you nerf tanks, please make the costs 150/100, because Terran needs insane amounts of gas to play such a tankstyle.
Stimmed Marauders A lot of people are tossing out numbers and figures for comparison, but I thought it might be helpful to have a short little video showing both Stalkers and Marauders dealing damage to a CC/Nex.
Test 1: 6 Stalkers snipe a CC 6 Marauders snipe a Nex
Test 2: 12 Stalkers snipe a CC 6 stimmed Marauders snipe a Nex
Test 3 (more like a demonstration): 6 stimmed Marauders dropped near a templar archives, gunning for the building only while there are 6 Stalkers beside it
I don't know for sure what should be done about the Marauder if anything, but I figured it would be easier to understand if people just saw it, I dunno.
You want a 75 Marauder? Or -50HP for stim, so chargezealot + Storm or Colossi basically just rip through it without any chance for Terran?
I don't understand how having stim cost 50Hp has an effect on "chargezealot + Storm or Colossi." Marauders are supposed to be tank units, right? The whole point of making stim costly is that it turns the Marauder into a damage dealer, at the cost of no longer being a tank. If you use stim vs. Chargelots + Storm, you are stupid and deserve to lose. Your Marauders should be there primarily to stand between the Zealots and Marines. The Marines get the stim, not the Marauders.
As for Colossi, well I guess you'll have to change your tech pattern. Maybe use a few Vikings instead of relying on Marauders to kill Colossi. In fact, don't Vikings have a ground form, where they can do more damage over time than Marauders?
This is nothing a competent Terran player cannot adjust to compensate for.
On September 12 2010 21:10 kyarisan wrote: Stimmed Marauders A lot of people are tossing out numbers and figures for comparison, but I thought it might be helpful to have a short little video showing both Stalkers and Marauders dealing damage to a CC/Nex.
Test 1: 6 Stalkers snipe a CC 6 Marauders snipe a Nex
Test 2: 12 Stalkers snipe a CC 6 stimmed Marauders snipe a Nex
Test 3 (more like a demonstration): 6 stimmed Marauders dropped near a templar archives, gunning for the building only while there are 6 Stalkers beside it
I don't know for sure what should be done about the Marauder if anything, but I figured it would be easier to understand if people just saw it, I dunno.
That's insane - 6 stalkers and still the archives go down so fast :/ weak.
You want a 75 Marauder? Or -50HP for stim, so chargezealot + Storm or Colossi basically just rip through it without any chance for Terran?
I don't understand how having stim cost 50Hp has an effect on "chargezealot + Storm or Colossi." Marauders are supposed to be tank units, right? The whole point of making stim costly is that it turns the Marauder into a damage dealer, at the cost of no longer being a tank. If you use stim vs. Chargelots + Storm, you are stupid and deserve to lose. Your Marauders should be there primarily to stand between the Zealots and Marines. The Marines get the stim, not the Marauders.
As for Colossi, well I guess you'll have to change your tech pattern. Maybe use a few Vikings instead of relying on Marauders to kill Colossi. In fact, don't Vikings have a ground form, where they can do more damage over time than Marauders?
This is nothing a competent Terran player cannot adjust to compensate for.
Check LucifroNNN vs Mana and check how he completely destroyes pure Marauder/Medivac with Zealot+Storm.. even holding off the pushes in the beginning with gateway units only. There's NOTHING wrong with the Marauder - get over it.
The marauder is not a tank if you can't stim / dodge storms.. and if you lose 50HP from stimming, AoE will shred you. I use vikings against Colossi - but guess what - its not as easy as you make it sound as long as Protoss is no complete idiot. Are you telling me I'm not a competent Terran, because I'd beg to differ.
lol, that vid's awesome. you basically have to have a very large part of your army somehow at every expo, or else you'll still get owned by a drop, which leaves you open for counterattacks. i'm experimenting with defensive nydus', but it's still really hard to defend. just taking away stim would probably fix the problem.
3 cannons are sufficient assuming that all 3 cannons can target the 6 marauders.
EDIT: I'd like to also point out that DPS does not factor in how long the units stay alive in combat, and it's much easier for zealots to take out marines in small numbers than marauders in small numbers - 630's HP worth in marauders vs 540 HP worth in marines. if it's army vs army, this becomes more complicated, but if your units are just trying to shoot a building down, marines will die faster than marauders for the same mineral cost.
oh and if you're warping in defense against a drop, the chargelots are insanely more cost efficient, you just lose the ability to shoot down the medivac. in fact 4~6 chargelots and 1~2 templar should be really good, or at least way better than the same cost of stalkers.
EPT
