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Personally I would think the solution is to increase the base armor of buildings by A LOT. Even Terrans only get a ridiculous +2 upgrade for their armor and Protoss rarely upgrade their shields. Buildings are immobile and can allow themselves to use heavy concrete and other really solid materials which would require more than small bullets from a machine gun to take serious damage from.
Which type of building *should be* hard to kill (high armor) and which should be easy to destroy (no / low armor)?
If I use common sense from the real world it would obviously be the defensive structures that should be very hard to kill and production structures that are easy to destroy (or make useless). From the game balance perspective that is not so easy to say, because too tough buildings could really change the style of play.
Personally I would prefer to keep all buildings armored, but to give defensive structures +3 armor and/or to give the PF a 50% damage reduction (added to the +2 building armor research?), to give the Zerg Hive a really high regeneration (only the Hive and not the Lair or Hatchery) and to give the Nexus an increased shield regeneration even in combat for as long as it has energy ... kinda like Terran healing. Sadly this makes matters a lot more complicated by adding a few new mechanics and changing the "feel" for the buildings, but if such a change was made I would think it was best to get it over with as early as possible before people have gotten used to the current state.
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On August 14 2010 14:40 DamonRJ wrote:
I feel that i speak for myself as well as the three little pigs when i say that all of the buildings should be armored. Like, its a building, built on a battle field, hundreds of years in the future.
However, this is just out curiosity, if there was to be an "un armored building", then what would happen if say hellions attacked it? would they get the damage bonus?
"Armored" is just a coefficient used for the bonus damage system. If buildings were not armored then all that would mean is that things that do +dmg vs armored would no longer do bonus damage to buildings. Thats all that would change.
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There are two kinds of targets in a base, workers and buildings. Coincidentally one is light and one is armored meaning that no matter what your bonus damage is against you can use it. Still even with the bonus damage workers are still the preferred target even for units like marauders, I think that it is fine.
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I was suggesting a different armor type for bldgs since like week one of the beta. It seems pretty absurd with certain units, specifically marauder drops.
A fortified armor type, that doesn't receive bonus damage from anything or reduce any damage from anything unless otherwise stated (ultra/baneling/reaper). So everything will do it's normal damage type to it.
Immortals, Stalkers, Marauders, Tanks, etc. would just do their non armored damage.
btw, tanks shoot too fast with their unseiged mode
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On August 14 2010 13:44 Vokasak wrote:
There are other ways to have units be effective against buildings besides having them armored. It's very possible to have a bonus vs buildings damage modifier, for example. Or in the case of reapers and ultralisks, have a secondary building-only attack.
If this was week 1 of beta, I would be all for taking the "armored" off all buildings and adding special building damage buff to things like sieged tanks, immortals, maybe colossus. But this isn't week 1 of beta, so it would probably be best if we didn't muck with the balance too much, and changing every building in the game is probably "too much".
It wasn't too much for WC3, don't see why its too much for SC2
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On August 14 2010 16:00 junemermaid wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2010 13:44 Vokasak wrote:
There are other ways to have units be effective against buildings besides having them armored. It's very possible to have a bonus vs buildings damage modifier, for example. Or in the case of reapers and ultralisks, have a secondary building-only attack.
If this was week 1 of beta, I would be all for taking the "armored" off all buildings and adding special building damage buff to things like sieged tanks, immortals, maybe colossus. But this isn't week 1 of beta, so it would probably be best if we didn't muck with the balance too much, and changing every building in the game is probably "too much". It wasn't too much for WC3, don't see why its too much for SC2
Brood War had tons of changes too. Blizzard is really good about balancing post release.
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It's easy for 8 marauders to do a wtfpwn drop and kill a pylon without risk. Even better to snipe that and a gas. If your protoss are out of position they can wtfpwn even more pylons. Maybe even a nexus.
QQ Does anyone have stats on marauder DPS vs armored?
Edit:
Marauder DPS is ~13 vs armored. With stim it's ~20. 20 * 8 = 180 damage.
Pylon killer bro.
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It's fine and should be left as is.
Though it does seem funny that being "armored" is actually detrimental to your health. You don't reduce damage from anything and instead you take extra from certain units.
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On August 14 2010 16:20 Backpack wrote:
It's fine and should be left as is.
Though it does seem funny that being "armored" is actually detrimental to your health. You don't reduce damage from anything and instead you take extra from certain units.
It's fine in every case except marauders. Reapers should be the go to building buster, they arent. Because mara's are too good at the job.
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marauders have stim, reapers dont
marauders are cheaper and with stim deal more dps than immortals to buildings. so immortal drops arent even as good.
immortal drops are alot more expensive than marauder drops. and the medivacs heal the stim lol.
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I always thought buildings crumbled a little too fast to stimmed marauders. Making buildings their own category other than "armored" would be a great fix to this.
Also when blizzard changed stim from 150/150 to 100/100 I absolutely had to face palm. It's such a versatile (affecting both marines and marauders) and extremely powerful ability, there is no way it should be that cheap. 150/150 is completely reasonable for such a ground breaking ability.
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I dislike hjow terran can drop 2 dropships full of marauders, stim then run around and kill your nexus' and you cant do a fucking thing to stop it, and every nexus they kill puts them so far ahead for almost no cost its ridiculous
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On August 14 2010 04:13 Ndugu wrote:
This is a more nuanced issue than it sounds like.
For example, I agree that buildings go down too fast under certain circumstances-- stimmed marauders being the best example. It is just ridiculous sometimes.
In fact, I think most of the time people bring this up, they're talking about Marauders. Zerg units, beyond Ultras, which are meant to, don't deal bonus to armored and therefore down wtfpwn buildings. Banelings do, but that is by design and has limitations.
As for Protoss units, only immortals really do that well against buildings. However, they are very limited by range, speed, etc. Getting two immortals in a warp prism and doing an immortal drop, imho, doesn't need a nerf. Its a cool strategy that is barely worth doing for the risk.
The more I think about this issue, the only problem I or anyone has is with how quickly stimmed marauders wtfpwn your buildings. I would be all right if a Terran massed reapers, and did a surprise drop to wtfpwn my buildings. But massing your generic, good, well-rounded ground unit for a greater effect? Too much reward with Zero risk.
Roaches are insane at taking down buildings for their cost.
All races have these units - marauders, immortals and roaches.
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On August 15 2010 07:25 gillon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2010 04:13 Ndugu wrote:
This is a more nuanced issue than it sounds like.
For example, I agree that buildings go down too fast under certain circumstances-- stimmed marauders being the best example. It is just ridiculous sometimes.
In fact, I think most of the time people bring this up, they're talking about Marauders. Zerg units, beyond Ultras, which are meant to, don't deal bonus to armored and therefore down wtfpwn buildings. Banelings do, but that is by design and has limitations.
As for Protoss units, only immortals really do that well against buildings. However, they are very limited by range, speed, etc. Getting two immortals in a warp prism and doing an immortal drop, imho, doesn't need a nerf. Its a cool strategy that is barely worth doing for the risk.
The more I think about this issue, the only problem I or anyone has is with how quickly stimmed marauders wtfpwn your buildings. I would be all right if a Terran massed reapers, and did a surprise drop to wtfpwn my buildings. But massing your generic, good, well-rounded ground unit for a greater effect? Too much reward with Zero risk. Roaches are insane at taking down buildings for their cost. All races have these units - marauders, immortals and roaches.
Immortals are expensive and slow, roaches have less range and no stim.
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-stim for mara.
but ya, in general 'vs armored' mechanics are pretty bad (or base armour values for those units to low)
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I'm a toss player and I think the problem isn't unique to marauders. A few void rays can still take out buildings incredibly fast partially due to their charging mechanic, which takes most of the blame, and partially due to the +armor damage they have. IMO buildings should have a separate armor type and T1/1.5 units definitely shouldn't get any bonus damage to buildings.
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i've wanted to use the editor to experiment with this same issue... problem is that i can't add a new unit type to the list..
i know this won't ever happen... but i'd suggest a huge overhaul and re-balancing...
start with adding a Medium armor class...
then give all Light units 0 armor... all Medium units 1 armor... and all Armored units 2 armor...
the only medium armored units would be units like the queen, infestor, raven, observer, overlord, mule, and ghost... none of your real "combat" units... just the support-ish units.
there would be no units that deal +dmg to Medium...
along with this i would propose adding a Plating category that only applies to buildings and all Plated structures would have 3 armor.... also along with this you could give units like the reaper/immortal/void ray/etc:... bonus damage to Plating so that they still fulfill their role as structure killers.
once all of this is done then you can start tweaking +light, +armored, and normal damage values to bring everything back into balance...
i know it seems kind of radical... but i don't think it would be that difficult to find a good balance again after this overhaul... and it would finally make sense of the crappy light/armored system that we have now.
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On August 14 2010 04:58 zephyredx wrote:
It might be a good idea to add a new "building" category so that only units that specifically target buildings like blings get the advantage.
This is a fantastic idea that makes so much sense. I feel that cannons, bunkers, turrets, spine and spore crawlers should remain armoured however.
OR... Nerf the effects of stim on marauders since stim marauders are the only unit that's seems to take out buildings in a ridiculously OP way.
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Simply taking away marauder's bonus damage to structures makes this a non-issue.
Perhaps add an engineering bay level upgrade to reaper's damage to buildings to compensate.
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On August 15 2010 07:25 gillon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2010 04:13 Ndugu wrote:
This is a more nuanced issue than it sounds like.
For example, I agree that buildings go down too fast under certain circumstances-- stimmed marauders being the best example. It is just ridiculous sometimes.
In fact, I think most of the time people bring this up, they're talking about Marauders. Zerg units, beyond Ultras, which are meant to, don't deal bonus to armored and therefore down wtfpwn buildings. Banelings do, but that is by design and has limitations.
As for Protoss units, only immortals really do that well against buildings. However, they are very limited by range, speed, etc. Getting two immortals in a warp prism and doing an immortal drop, imho, doesn't need a nerf. Its a cool strategy that is barely worth doing for the risk.
The more I think about this issue, the only problem I or anyone has is with how quickly stimmed marauders wtfpwn your buildings. I would be all right if a Terran massed reapers, and did a surprise drop to wtfpwn my buildings. But massing your generic, good, well-rounded ground unit for a greater effect? Too much reward with Zero risk. Roaches are insane at taking down buildings for their cost. All races have these units - marauders, immortals and roaches.
Now imagine those units arent slow, do more damage, have stim, and are getting healed from their dropship.
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EPT
