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United States13132 Posts
On September 11 2010 06:13 ltortoise wrote: Why can't a void ray be a part of the protoss army? Everybody jizzed their pants when Terrans started keeping their banshees as a part of their main army when the harassing phase was over, to fantastic effect. I see no reason why Protoss can't do that with void rays, especially if there are a lot of marauders on the field. Keep the void rays in back, firing down at the front line. They can do LOADS of damage...
Because if you go for a quick banshee i insta-lose because I won't have sight
If I get an observer and then void rays you'll either make a viking and then my void ray is useless for half the cost and on a structure you wanted anyway or you'll do some sort of infantry push and I'll lose because you have a ton more units than I do.
Getting every tech structure early on just isn't viable. When you have a solid tech tree and you can hop add-ons around for minimal costs you can afford to do such things. Protoss doesn't have that option. If I go for a robo and stargate, my army will be less than yours and if we're on equal food I already have to out-micro you to win a fight...If I'm short units on top of that I'm really screwed.
Late game air is pretty useless versus Terran. Vikings kill many times their cost without trying and you'll have a starport anyways so I'll be hard countered in a matter of moments.
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On September 11 2010 06:22 ltortoise wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2010 06:20 Jameser wrote:On September 11 2010 06:18 ltortoise wrote:On September 11 2010 06:16 Jameser wrote:On September 11 2010 06:13 ltortoise wrote:On September 11 2010 06:11 Jameser wrote:On September 11 2010 06:05 ltortoise wrote:On September 11 2010 05:47 Piy wrote:
It does feel a little tough when Marauders can snipe a nexus so fast, but I'm not willing to call it imbalanced yet. It's not like two void rays can't snipe buildings pretty damned quick, too. Actually, faster than 4 marauders! Four marauders + medivac cost 500/200. They do ((10 + 10) - 1) * 4 damage per attack, add stim and the cooldown is 1, so 76 DPS. Two void rays cost 500/300. They do (25 - 1) * 2 damage per attack, with a cooldown of .6, so 80 DPS (fully charged) Yes, they take time to charge, but the medivac has to unload, so it evens out IMO. Food for thought: 8 zerglings with 0 upgdrades do (5 - 1) * 8 damage with a cooldown of .7, so ~46 DPS to buildings (!!!). That doesn't seem like much, but it only costs 300/0, and don't Zerg's have the biggest gas problems of all races?. Of course without the upgrade overlords are slow as hell though, but still food for thought. With +1, two overlords full of lings are dishing out 115 DPS, with the modest cost of 600/0. I'm starting to think a lot of the complaints are stemming from the popularity of marauder drops. Other races can do similar things for similar costs. the big difference is void rays are pretty much useless except for voidray rushes, while marauders are part of the standard terran army anyway... (yes this matters hugely) I don't agree with this statement. Why can't a void ray be a part of the protoss army? Everybody jizzed their pants when Terrans started keeping their banshees as a part of their main army when the harassing phase was over, to fantastic effect. I see no reason why Protoss can't do that with void rays, especially if there are a lot of marauders on the field. Keep the void rays in back, firing down at the front line. They can do LOADS of damage... because starports can be used for many other units that benefit the terran army (medivac, raven, reactionary vikings etc) stargates can only build phoenix and void rays and as such are a much bigger investment. (not counting BCs and carriers, although here too BCs are clearly superior to carriers) ...? Stargate is also easier to get to, and phoenix have many uses, such as countering ALL Terran air if massed (due to their incredibly high hp and fantastic speed). I don't understand your points. I don't even know why I expect more than low silver leaguers on TL anymore... sigh... anyway marauders feel too much like wc3 units (very strong and focused on a certain damage type) What kind of post is this? Now you are insulting my skill? Well, I'm not silver league. Want to play some time? PM me.
Every time I've gone Void Ray harass, they lived and I brought them along for the main fight, they died in a split second to Stimmed Marine fire and the Viking(s) they originally built to drive off my harass (otherwise I would have kept harassing).
They have a range of 6, must accelerate and have a move speed of 2.25, which means they drop STUPID-fast to focus-fire from Marines and Vikings.
They don't work against Protoss or Zerg for exactly the same reason. They're big, slow, obvious and the acceleration rate and dependence on being ignored for 6 straight seconds just gets them killed.
They're not something you send into a straight-up battle unless the fight ended and he's got little to no AA left.
They're something you use to harass with or send in after Psi Storm does its job.
Now, when OUR Banshee harassment ending unit (Phoenix) drives you off and you thus bring it along with the main blob, has a range of 9, which wouldn't put it within direct fire of a deadly ball of GtA fire, we'll be all giddly with anticipation of the battle itself.
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On September 11 2010 06:35 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
Because if you go for a quick banshee i insta-lose because I won't have sight
Do we really need to play the rock-paper-scissors game? Every build has a counter. Why would it be different for void rays?
On September 11 2010 06:35 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
If I get an observer and then void rays you'll either make a viking and then my void ray is useless for half the cost and on a structure you wanted anyway or you'll do some sort of infantry push and I'll lose because you have a ton more units than I do.
I generally FE vs toss, so no, I can't just "make a viking." And if I do an infantry push, why couldn't you just forcefield your ramp while massing and messing with my economy with your void ray? This is stupid. I can't do everything all at once.
On September 11 2010 06:35 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Getting every tech structure early on just isn't viable. When you have a solid tech tree and you can hop add-ons around for minimal costs you can afford to do such things. Protoss doesn't have that option. If I go for a robo and stargate, my army will be less than yours and if we're on equal food I already have to out-micro you to win a fight...If I'm short units on top of that I'm really screwed.
I never said you have to "get every tech structure." Not once. Where did I say that?
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On September 11 2010 06:42 Bibdy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2010 06:22 ltortoise wrote:On September 11 2010 06:20 Jameser wrote:On September 11 2010 06:18 ltortoise wrote:On September 11 2010 06:16 Jameser wrote:On September 11 2010 06:13 ltortoise wrote:On September 11 2010 06:11 Jameser wrote:On September 11 2010 06:05 ltortoise wrote:On September 11 2010 05:47 Piy wrote:
It does feel a little tough when Marauders can snipe a nexus so fast, but I'm not willing to call it imbalanced yet. It's not like two void rays can't snipe buildings pretty damned quick, too. Actually, faster than 4 marauders! Four marauders + medivac cost 500/200. They do ((10 + 10) - 1) * 4 damage per attack, add stim and the cooldown is 1, so 76 DPS. Two void rays cost 500/300. They do (25 - 1) * 2 damage per attack, with a cooldown of .6, so 80 DPS (fully charged) Yes, they take time to charge, but the medivac has to unload, so it evens out IMO. Food for thought: 8 zerglings with 0 upgdrades do (5 - 1) * 8 damage with a cooldown of .7, so ~46 DPS to buildings (!!!). That doesn't seem like much, but it only costs 300/0, and don't Zerg's have the biggest gas problems of all races?. Of course without the upgrade overlords are slow as hell though, but still food for thought. With +1, two overlords full of lings are dishing out 115 DPS, with the modest cost of 600/0. I'm starting to think a lot of the complaints are stemming from the popularity of marauder drops. Other races can do similar things for similar costs. the big difference is void rays are pretty much useless except for voidray rushes, while marauders are part of the standard terran army anyway... (yes this matters hugely) I don't agree with this statement. Why can't a void ray be a part of the protoss army? Everybody jizzed their pants when Terrans started keeping their banshees as a part of their main army when the harassing phase was over, to fantastic effect. I see no reason why Protoss can't do that with void rays, especially if there are a lot of marauders on the field. Keep the void rays in back, firing down at the front line. They can do LOADS of damage... because starports can be used for many other units that benefit the terran army (medivac, raven, reactionary vikings etc) stargates can only build phoenix and void rays and as such are a much bigger investment. (not counting BCs and carriers, although here too BCs are clearly superior to carriers) ...? Stargate is also easier to get to, and phoenix have many uses, such as countering ALL Terran air if massed (due to their incredibly high hp and fantastic speed). I don't understand your points. I don't even know why I expect more than low silver leaguers on TL anymore... sigh... anyway marauders feel too much like wc3 units (very strong and focused on a certain damage type) What kind of post is this? Now you are insulting my skill? Well, I'm not silver league. Want to play some time? PM me. Every time I've gone Void Ray harass, they lived and I brought them along for the main fight, they died in a split second to Stimmed Marine fire and the Viking(s) they originally built to drive off my harass (otherwise I would have kept harassing). They have a range of 6, must accelerate and have a move speed of 2.25, which means they drop STUPID-fast to focus-fire from Marines and Vikings. They don't work against Protoss or Zerg for exactly the same reason. They're big, slow, obvious and the acceleration rate and dependence on being ignored for 6 straight seconds just gets them killed. They're not something you send into a straight-up battle unless the fight ended and he's got little to no AA left.
Banshees also have low hp, and a range of 6. They seem to work just fine, despite stalkers being around capable of focus firing. Maybe that's because when I do this, I actually use my ground army as a meat shield for my banshees?
The only reply I have for you is that You're Doing It Wrong.
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On September 11 2010 06:46 ltortoise wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2010 06:42 Bibdy wrote:On September 11 2010 06:22 ltortoise wrote:On September 11 2010 06:20 Jameser wrote:On September 11 2010 06:18 ltortoise wrote:On September 11 2010 06:16 Jameser wrote:On September 11 2010 06:13 ltortoise wrote:On September 11 2010 06:11 Jameser wrote:On September 11 2010 06:05 ltortoise wrote:On September 11 2010 05:47 Piy wrote:
It does feel a little tough when Marauders can snipe a nexus so fast, but I'm not willing to call it imbalanced yet. It's not like two void rays can't snipe buildings pretty damned quick, too. Actually, faster than 4 marauders! Four marauders + medivac cost 500/200. They do ((10 + 10) - 1) * 4 damage per attack, add stim and the cooldown is 1, so 76 DPS. Two void rays cost 500/300. They do (25 - 1) * 2 damage per attack, with a cooldown of .6, so 80 DPS (fully charged) Yes, they take time to charge, but the medivac has to unload, so it evens out IMO. Food for thought: 8 zerglings with 0 upgdrades do (5 - 1) * 8 damage with a cooldown of .7, so ~46 DPS to buildings (!!!). That doesn't seem like much, but it only costs 300/0, and don't Zerg's have the biggest gas problems of all races?. Of course without the upgrade overlords are slow as hell though, but still food for thought. With +1, two overlords full of lings are dishing out 115 DPS, with the modest cost of 600/0. I'm starting to think a lot of the complaints are stemming from the popularity of marauder drops. Other races can do similar things for similar costs. the big difference is void rays are pretty much useless except for voidray rushes, while marauders are part of the standard terran army anyway... (yes this matters hugely) I don't agree with this statement. Why can't a void ray be a part of the protoss army? Everybody jizzed their pants when Terrans started keeping their banshees as a part of their main army when the harassing phase was over, to fantastic effect. I see no reason why Protoss can't do that with void rays, especially if there are a lot of marauders on the field. Keep the void rays in back, firing down at the front line. They can do LOADS of damage... because starports can be used for many other units that benefit the terran army (medivac, raven, reactionary vikings etc) stargates can only build phoenix and void rays and as such are a much bigger investment. (not counting BCs and carriers, although here too BCs are clearly superior to carriers) ...? Stargate is also easier to get to, and phoenix have many uses, such as countering ALL Terran air if massed (due to their incredibly high hp and fantastic speed). I don't understand your points. I don't even know why I expect more than low silver leaguers on TL anymore... sigh... anyway marauders feel too much like wc3 units (very strong and focused on a certain damage type) What kind of post is this? Now you are insulting my skill? Well, I'm not silver league. Want to play some time? PM me. Every time I've gone Void Ray harass, they lived and I brought them along for the main fight, they died in a split second to Stimmed Marine fire and the Viking(s) they originally built to drive off my harass (otherwise I would have kept harassing). They have a range of 6, must accelerate and have a move speed of 2.25, which means they drop STUPID-fast to focus-fire from Marines and Vikings. They don't work against Protoss or Zerg for exactly the same reason. They're big, slow, obvious and the acceleration rate and dependence on being ignored for 6 straight seconds just gets them killed. They're not something you send into a straight-up battle unless the fight ended and he's got little to no AA left. Banshees also have low hp, and a range of 6. They seem to work just fine, despite stalkers being around capable of focus firing. Maybe that's because when I do this, I actually use my ground army as a meat shield for my banshees? The only reply I have for you is that You're Doing It Wrong.
Oh yes, sorry. Should be making my Zealots throw their Psi-Blades up in the air to bring them down.
Play Protoss and try it. Then you'll understand.
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On September 11 2010 06:48 Bibdy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2010 06:46 ltortoise wrote:On September 11 2010 06:42 Bibdy wrote:On September 11 2010 06:22 ltortoise wrote:On September 11 2010 06:20 Jameser wrote:On September 11 2010 06:18 ltortoise wrote:On September 11 2010 06:16 Jameser wrote:On September 11 2010 06:13 ltortoise wrote:On September 11 2010 06:11 Jameser wrote:On September 11 2010 06:05 ltortoise wrote:
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It's not like two void rays can't snipe buildings pretty damned quick, too. Actually, faster than 4 marauders!
Four marauders + medivac cost 500/200.
They do ((10 + 10) - 1) * 4 damage per attack, add stim and the cooldown is 1, so 76 DPS.
Two void rays cost 500/300.
They do (25 - 1) * 2 damage per attack, with a cooldown of .6, so 80 DPS (fully charged)
Yes, they take time to charge, but the medivac has to unload, so it evens out IMO.
Food for thought: 8 zerglings with 0 upgdrades do (5 - 1) * 8 damage with a cooldown of .7, so ~46 DPS to buildings (!!!). That doesn't seem like much, but it only costs 300/0, and don't Zerg's have the biggest gas problems of all races?. Of course without the upgrade overlords are slow as hell though, but still food for thought. With +1, two overlords full of lings are dishing out 115 DPS, with the modest cost of 600/0.
I'm starting to think a lot of the complaints are stemming from the popularity of marauder drops. Other races can do similar things for similar costs. the big difference is void rays are pretty much useless except for voidray rushes, while marauders are part of the standard terran army anyway... (yes this matters hugely) I don't agree with this statement. Why can't a void ray be a part of the protoss army? Everybody jizzed their pants when Terrans started keeping their banshees as a part of their main army when the harassing phase was over, to fantastic effect. I see no reason why Protoss can't do that with void rays, especially if there are a lot of marauders on the field. Keep the void rays in back, firing down at the front line. They can do LOADS of damage... because starports can be used for many other units that benefit the terran army (medivac, raven, reactionary vikings etc) stargates can only build phoenix and void rays and as such are a much bigger investment. (not counting BCs and carriers, although here too BCs are clearly superior to carriers) ...? Stargate is also easier to get to, and phoenix have many uses, such as countering ALL Terran air if massed (due to their incredibly high hp and fantastic speed). I don't understand your points. I don't even know why I expect more than low silver leaguers on TL anymore... sigh... anyway marauders feel too much like wc3 units (very strong and focused on a certain damage type) What kind of post is this? Now you are insulting my skill? Well, I'm not silver league. Want to play some time? PM me. Every time I've gone Void Ray harass, they lived and I brought them along for the main fight, they died in a split second to Stimmed Marine fire and the Viking(s) they originally built to drive off my harass (otherwise I would have kept harassing). They have a range of 6, must accelerate and have a move speed of 2.25, which means they drop STUPID-fast to focus-fire from Marines and Vikings. They don't work against Protoss or Zerg for exactly the same reason. They're big, slow, obvious and the acceleration rate and dependence on being ignored for 6 straight seconds just gets them killed. They're not something you send into a straight-up battle unless the fight ended and he's got little to no AA left. Banshees also have low hp, and a range of 6. They seem to work just fine, despite stalkers being around capable of focus firing. Maybe that's because when I do this, I actually use my ground army as a meat shield for my banshees? The only reply I have for you is that You're Doing It Wrong. Oh yes, sorry. Should be making my Zealots throw their Psi-Blades up in the air to bring them down. Play Protoss and try it. Then you'll understand.
It's been done to me. That's all I really want to say about the topic. Void rays are a wonderful unit and can be used just fine as part of your main army, as long as you engage in the correct spots and in the correct fashion. People who throw their units away as "simply harassment units" are pretty much stupid, IMO.
Same with reapers. You can write them off as "just a harassment unit" and suicide them to free up supply, but in the end you're better off keeping them and adding them to your army, and microing them. I have won many games in the mid game with marauder/marine/reaper composition. The reapers do an excellent job of raping zerglings.
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For comparison here are some dps numbers against a 1 armour building:
Stimmed Marauder: 19
Stimmed Marine: 8.71
Sieged Tank: 16.33
Thor: 45.31
Zergling: 5.75
Roach: 7.5
Hydralisk: 13.25
Ultralisk: 44.4 (post-patch: 39.49)
Stalker: 9.03
Dark Templar: 25.97
Immortal: 33.79
Marauders and Marines are clear outliers, though 2 Marines are not better than a Marauder unless you have +2. We can see that 10 Roaches kill buildings slower than 4 Marauders. An Immortal is clearly worse (and much more expensive) than 2 Marauders and an Ultra or a Thor are only slightly better. A DT is a little better than one Marauder but costs more than twice as much. Hydras are greatly outclassed. Zerglings have very high dps for their cost but they are obviously limited by the attack surface.
4 Marauders can kill a Hatchery in roughly 12 real seconds (about one full stim). 8 Marines are almost as fast but quite fragile in comparison and take longer to unload. If Marauders did not have any bonus damage against buildings they would be in line with the more expensive Stalkers and still significantly better than Roaches.
Unfortunately making buildings unarmoured would affect many other units, especially Immortals, and an exception only for Marauders would be an inelegant and strange solution. Perhaps the ability to snipe buildings will simply be a part of the overall balance of the Terran race down the line.
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Well then somebody doesn't produce themselves very many Marines.
Here's a fun bit of math:
Terran army with 12 Marines (that's not a lot): Total anti-air DPS capability = 6/0.8608 * 12 = 84 DPS, without Stim
Protoss army with 8 Stalkers (that's a lot): Total anti-air DPS capability (assuming shooting Banshees) = 10/1.44 * 8 =~ 56 DPS
Who's air units do you think are going to drop first?
I'm not discrediting them on the basis of the math alone. Experience has taught me that well enough. The math just supports my very well-earned pre-conceived notion.
Pretending like I'm dismissing it as just a harassment unit without having tried it as anything else is really just pretty downright hilarious.
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On September 11 2010 06:55 Bibdy wrote:
Well then somebody doesn't produce themselves very many Marines.
Here's a fun bit of math:
Terran army with 12 Marines (that's not a lot): Total anti-air DPS capability = 6/0.8608 * 12 = 84 DPS, without Stim
Protoss army with 8 Stalkers (that's a lot): Total anti-air DPS capability (assuming shooting Banshees) = 10/1.44 * 8 =~ 56 DPS
Who's air units do you think are going to drop first?
Marines only have a range of 5. If you aren't abusing that little fact, You're Doing It Wrong. You are engaging in the wrong spots and in the wrong fashion. There's no reason at all to let 12 marines get in range of a single air unit. Ever.
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On September 11 2010 06:57 ltortoise wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2010 06:55 Bibdy wrote:
Well then somebody doesn't produce themselves very many Marines.
Here's a fun bit of math:
Terran army with 12 Marines (that's not a lot): Total anti-air DPS capability = 6/0.8608 * 12 = 84 DPS, without Stim
Protoss army with 8 Stalkers (that's a lot): Total anti-air DPS capability (assuming shooting Banshees) = 10/1.44 * 8 =~ 56 DPS
Who's air units do you think are going to drop first? Marines only have a range of 5. If you aren't abusing that little fact, You're Doing It Wrong. You are engaging in the wrong spots and in the wrong fashion. There's no reason at all to let 12 marines get in range of a single air unit. Ever.
Except when they've both got a move speed of 2.25, the air unit has to accelerate and the ground guys have got this little movement speed boosting ability.
Let me guess, I'm supposed to keep my Void Ray at full Charge and doing tons of damage while using it as bait all at the same time, yes?
Let's not forget the Vikings you originally made to drive away my Void Rays from harassment in the first place, either.
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On September 11 2010 07:00 Bibdy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2010 06:57 ltortoise wrote:On September 11 2010 06:55 Bibdy wrote:
Well then somebody doesn't produce themselves very many Marines.
Here's a fun bit of math:
Terran army with 12 Marines (that's not a lot): Total anti-air DPS capability = 6/0.8608 * 12 = 84 DPS, without Stim
Protoss army with 8 Stalkers (that's a lot): Total anti-air DPS capability (assuming shooting Banshees) = 10/1.44 * 8 =~ 56 DPS
Who's air units do you think are going to drop first? Marines only have a range of 5. If you aren't abusing that little fact, You're Doing It Wrong. You are engaging in the wrong spots and in the wrong fashion. There's no reason at all to let 12 marines get in range of a single air unit. Ever. Except when they've both got a move speed of 2.25, the air unit has to accelerate and the ground guys have got this little movement speed boosting ability. Let me guess, I'm supposed to keep my Void Ray at full Charge and doing tons of damage while using it as bait all at the same time, yes? Let's not forget the Vikings you originally made to drive away my Void Rays from harassment in the first place, either.
...Or just put the Zealots in front as a shield? What am I supposed to do, target fire your void ray into a wall of zealots as all my anti-air gets instantly slaughtered? You can easily create a huge negative incentive for me to attack the void(s).
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On September 11 2010 07:02 ltortoise wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2010 07:00 Bibdy wrote:On September 11 2010 06:57 ltortoise wrote:On September 11 2010 06:55 Bibdy wrote:
Well then somebody doesn't produce themselves very many Marines.
Here's a fun bit of math:
Terran army with 12 Marines (that's not a lot): Total anti-air DPS capability = 6/0.8608 * 12 = 84 DPS, without Stim
Protoss army with 8 Stalkers (that's a lot): Total anti-air DPS capability (assuming shooting Banshees) = 10/1.44 * 8 =~ 56 DPS
Who's air units do you think are going to drop first? Marines only have a range of 5. If you aren't abusing that little fact, You're Doing It Wrong. You are engaging in the wrong spots and in the wrong fashion. There's no reason at all to let 12 marines get in range of a single air unit. Ever. Except when they've both got a move speed of 2.25, the air unit has to accelerate and the ground guys have got this little movement speed boosting ability. Let me guess, I'm supposed to keep my Void Ray at full Charge and doing tons of damage while using it as bait all at the same time, yes? Let's not forget the Vikings you originally made to drive away my Void Rays from harassment in the first place, either. ...Or just put the Zealots in front as a shield? What am I supposed to do, target fire your void ray into a wall of zealots as all my anti-air gets instantly slaughtered? You can easily create a huge negative incentive for me to attack the void(s).
Okay, let's break it down: You WILL have Vikings at this point. Guaranteed.
If you don't have Vikings at this point I'll just do what any good player does when they see their opponent massing tons of GtA units and building static defenses does: spam more air units and maintain complete air control. Marines can't be everywhere at once so if you depend on them and Missile Turrets entirely for your anti-air pleasure I'm eventually going to find a nice little cubby-hole to charge off of and then its pretty much over. You need something like 8 Marines per fully Charged Void Ray to bring it down, and if I don't like my odds, I'll just fly off and find another.
So, have we established you'll have Vikings? Yes? Okay. Ergo, your Vikings can be nailing the Void Ray(s) from complete safety above the Marine ball, meaning you get the first and continuous shots through the entire battle. The moment I approach with the Void Rays to do anything useful and start charging up on something, they get splattered by Marine fire.
So, am I to bait your Vikings to chase, with their superior range and gun them down with Stalkers and Zealots first, take out your Marines and Vikings, THEN send the Void Rays in? YES! Hence my original point that I can't use these things until you're out of AA, whether its through Collossi, Psi Storm or just raw ass kickery from Zealots and Stalkers, they're just crap.
ONLY if you're skimping on the Marines (e.g. I'm harassing with Stalkers a lot at the start of the match, forcing you to make lots of Marauders) and haven't got any Vikings can I make anything out of a Void Ray in a straight-up battle.
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I'd be more in support of creating a new armor type. Call it "Building." Stuff that's supposed to do heavier damage to buildings can have bonuses against that armor type, kinda like banelings do.
Base defenses are fine to stay as "armored," especially since from a logic standpoint it makes total sense (you're going to put "armor" on a bunker or photon cannon). That way immortals and marauders can still do what they're supposed to do, but shouldn't be able to get in a transport and snipe off a tech building in 0 seconds flat.
As for Ultras, the headbutt attack frontloads more damage but it's less DPS (if that makes sense).
Furthermore, the headbutt doesn't splash, so clumped buildings take way less damage than they would otherwise. It's kinda why Blizzard is removing the headbutt, so I guess the point is moot.
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You realize that only marauders cause this problem because they have stim. The issue is marauders having stim, not buildings being armored. Tanks, immos, stalkers, ultras, they all are fine.
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Marauders should do +8 vs armored, not +10 vs armored. Problem solved... I hope.
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On September 11 2010 07:28 Antares777 wrote:
Marauders should do +8 vs armored, not +10 vs armored. Problem solved... I hope.
That's a really bad fix as it would noticably affect their combat strength but only slightly impact their ability to snipe buildings. Changing how stim works would fall into the same category. I think a big part of the reason why Marauders are designed the way they are is to make them semi-viable against Tank/Viking. So any potential change to Marauders should be something that does not affect their ability to kill sieged tanks. In fact I think Blizzard would like Marauders to be even stronger against Tanks if possible without unbalancing the unit elsewhere.
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How about this:
Marauders now have to headbutt buildings. This does 7 damage to the buildings and has a period of three seconds in between attacks. Each headbutt has a chance to push their head back into their suit, blinding them for thirty seconds. Blinded marauders fire randomly towards anything that sounds like an enemy. This includes your own units in TvT. A viable strategy may be to building a CC outside your opponent's expansion to blind all your marauders then use the higher DPS from shells to bring down the nexus quickly (if they hear the probes and fire in their general direction and hit the nexus).
(This is a joke. Please don't hurt me.)
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On September 11 2010 07:51 OTIX wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2010 07:28 Antares777 wrote:
Marauders should do +8 vs armored, not +10 vs armored. Problem solved... I hope. That's a really bad fix as it would noticably affect their combat strength but only slightly impact their ability to snipe buildings. Changing how stim works would fall into the same category. I think a big part of the reason why Marauders are designed the way they are is to make them semi-viable against Tank/Viking. So any potential change to Marauders should be something that does not affect their ability to kill sieged tanks. In fact I think Blizzard would like Marauders to be even stronger against Tanks if possible without unbalancing the unit elsewhere.
So, why don't they change Tanks to do 35 +15 vs. Light? I don't get why Tanks need to be good against Armoured, not Light. Why aren't tanks in normal mode a counter to Sieged Tanks?
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On September 11 2010 06:22 ltortoise wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2010 06:20 Jameser wrote:On September 11 2010 06:18 ltortoise wrote:On September 11 2010 06:16 Jameser wrote:On September 11 2010 06:13 ltortoise wrote:On September 11 2010 06:11 Jameser wrote:On September 11 2010 06:05 ltortoise wrote:On September 11 2010 05:47 Piy wrote:
It does feel a little tough when Marauders can snipe a nexus so fast, but I'm not willing to call it imbalanced yet. It's not like two void rays can't snipe buildings pretty damned quick, too. Actually, faster than 4 marauders! Four marauders + medivac cost 500/200. They do ((10 + 10) - 1) * 4 damage per attack, add stim and the cooldown is 1, so 76 DPS. Two void rays cost 500/300. They do (25 - 1) * 2 damage per attack, with a cooldown of .6, so 80 DPS (fully charged) Yes, they take time to charge, but the medivac has to unload, so it evens out IMO. Food for thought: 8 zerglings with 0 upgdrades do (5 - 1) * 8 damage with a cooldown of .7, so ~46 DPS to buildings (!!!). That doesn't seem like much, but it only costs 300/0, and don't Zerg's have the biggest gas problems of all races?. Of course without the upgrade overlords are slow as hell though, but still food for thought. With +1, two overlords full of lings are dishing out 115 DPS, with the modest cost of 600/0. I'm starting to think a lot of the complaints are stemming from the popularity of marauder drops. Other races can do similar things for similar costs. the big difference is void rays are pretty much useless except for voidray rushes, while marauders are part of the standard terran army anyway... (yes this matters hugely) I don't agree with this statement. Why can't a void ray be a part of the protoss army? Everybody jizzed their pants when Terrans started keeping their banshees as a part of their main army when the harassing phase was over, to fantastic effect. I see no reason why Protoss can't do that with void rays, especially if there are a lot of marauders on the field. Keep the void rays in back, firing down at the front line. They can do LOADS of damage... because starports can be used for many other units that benefit the terran army (medivac, raven, reactionary vikings etc) stargates can only build phoenix and void rays and as such are a much bigger investment. (not counting BCs and carriers, although here too BCs are clearly superior to carriers) ...? Stargate is also easier to get to, and phoenix have many uses, such as countering ALL Terran air if massed (due to their incredibly high hp and fantastic speed). I don't understand your points. I don't even know why I expect more than low silver leaguers on TL anymore... sigh... anyway marauders feel too much like wc3 units (very strong and focused on a certain damage type) What kind of post is this? Now you are insulting my skill? Well, I'm not silver league. Want to play some time? PM me.
yoyoyo chill out.
Here's some more math, but I'm not gonna use any numbers.
Marauders + Medivacs = good army
void rays + speed = basically a waste of money.
void rays by themselves + player perseverence = easy kills to vikings and huge investment for Protoss
You can't harass Terran very well as Protoss at all, the reason it's tough is marine/maruader drops kill stalkers pretty badly in small numbers while 6 stimmed marines and a viking can kill 2 void rays. So as Protoss you actually need a pretty large army in your main to stop drops, which means if you are on the other side of the map, with good micro Terran can kill your nexus a good portion of the time.
I'm not saying it's broken, but this is why some rude people are calling you a newbie and why this thread of was started in the first place (OP lost to a bunch of people Marauder dropping and wanted to see if other people were also having trouble)
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On September 11 2010 08:03 blastedt wrote:
How about this:
Marauders now have to headbutt buildings. This does 7 damage to the buildings and has a period of three seconds in between attacks. Each headbutt has a chance to push their head back into their suit, blinding them for thirty seconds. Blinded marauders fire randomly towards anything that sounds like an enemy. This includes your own units in TvT. A viable strategy may be to building a CC outside your opponent's expansion to blind all your marauders then use the higher DPS from shells to bring down the nexus quickly (if they hear the probes and fire in their general direction and hit the nexus).
(This is a joke. Please don't hurt me.)
Very funny :p
Sounds a lot like ultralisk :p
Voidrays, esp if they enter battle fully charged, is a good addition to your army *esp* in combination with FF.
Voidrays can also be used to harass expo/give map control/make your opponent "waste" resources in AA which might otherwise be not very useful beside to take out a few VRs.
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EPT
