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Should Buildings be Armored? - Page 8

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caewil
Profile Joined August 2010
Singapore26 Posts
September 11 2010 01:29 GMT
#141
It's not simply the Marauder. It's the fact that just getting a unit to heal your army, a unit which you are getting anyway(!) automatically gives Terran access to drops. So if you're playing against a Terran, you always have to be prepared for drops. The fact that the units that make up the bulk of their army are the same units that they will use in a drop means that unlike the other two races, they pay no opportunity cost for going drops. They won't have a smaller army, they won't be building a unit or getting an upgrade just to drop.

Very different from back in BW, where if you wanted to heal your drops, you'd have to use some space for medics. Plus they required using those starports for dropships instead of science vessels.
eth3n
Profile Joined August 2010
718 Posts
September 11 2010 01:43 GMT
#142
I honestly think it is the marauder. The OP stated it well. Other units that rape buildings:

Siege Tanks
Reapers
DT drop
Immortals
VR rush
Ultralisks (which are actually getting buffed v buildings in important respects in the next patch)
Muta Snipe (outlying buildings)

The above tactics all require significant effort or a substantial risk of loss
VR/DT/Reapers/Mutas are all glass cannon and easily preventable, so their use is only if the opponent is leaving themselves vulnerable, and none of these units generally are made to work well in a 1a
Siege Tanks and Immortals don't really drop that well into a base (ignoring cliff abuse), if the player is steadily crawling with tanks or sending in Immortals with a 1a then you can't really complain.
Ultras are tier3 and Z tier3 takes forever, if you let the game go on that long you should be able to counter or should have already won/lost

Marauders however are a basic unit that has a place in every major composition. They are relatively cheap for their power (not a gas sink whatsoever) and can easily be massed to run them in with stim or drop them in main with stim. This can take out multiple tech buildings in a matter of seconds even if you have the army there to kill them.

I hate to be broken record here but the marauder unit in its current form doesn't seem right.

I think the idea of only defensive structures have armor is an interesting compromise which would leave the stimpak on the marauder yet deal with one of the most annoying aspects of the marauder.
Idra Potter: I don't use avada kedavra because i have self-respect.
cHaNg-sTa
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States1058 Posts
September 11 2010 01:52 GMT
#143
On September 11 2010 10:43 eth3n wrote:
I honestly think it is the marauder. The OP stated it well. Other units that rape buildings:

Siege Tanks
Reapers
DT drop
Immortals
VR rush
Ultralisks (which are actually getting buffed v buildings in important respects in the next patch)
Muta Snipe (outlying buildings)

The above tactics all require significant effort or a substantial risk of loss
VR/DT/Reapers/Mutas are all glass cannon and easily preventable, so their use is only if the opponent is leaving themselves vulnerable, and none of these units generally are made to work well in a 1a
Siege Tanks and Immortals don't really drop that well into a base (ignoring cliff abuse), if the player is steadily crawling with tanks or sending in Immortals with a 1a then you can't really complain.
Ultras are tier3 and Z tier3 takes forever, if you let the game go on that long you should be able to counter or should have already won/lost

Marauders however are a basic unit that has a place in every major composition. They are relatively cheap for their power (not a gas sink whatsoever) and can easily be massed to run them in with stim or drop them in main with stim. This can take out multiple tech buildings in a matter of seconds even if you have the army there to kill them.

I hate to be broken record here but the marauder unit in its current form doesn't seem right.

I think the idea of only defensive structures have armor is an interesting compromise which would leave the stimpak on the marauder yet deal with one of the most annoying aspects of the marauder.


Pretty much. Stimmed Marauders are the most retarded thing in the game right now.
Jaedong <3 HOOK'EM HORNS!
Krohm
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
Canada1857 Posts
September 11 2010 01:58 GMT
#144
I really think it's fine as is. I've never had an issue with the damage values units do to buildings. Granted I've been annoyed a few times when my static defense melts to a couple immortals, but that's really my fault for allowing them free range on my defense.
Not bad for a cat toy.
SC2Phoenix
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Canada2814 Posts
September 11 2010 02:06 GMT
#145
They need a new system verus buildings imo or just take away the armored effect. Stimmed marauders can kill 1/2 your base in 20 seconds when stimmed is a little much
Who the fuck has a family of fucking trees? This song is so god damn stupid. Fuck you song, fuck you and your stupid trees. -itmeJP
HubertFelix
Profile Joined April 2010
France631 Posts
September 11 2010 02:07 GMT
#146
The armor should be changed.
Marauders drop cannot be stopped by static defense which is kind of crazy for a unit that has such a low gas cost.

Seriously, it's like a reaver drop, it's dumb.
P00RKID
Profile Joined December 2009
United States424 Posts
September 11 2010 02:16 GMT
#147
It would be interesting to have buildings balanced by their armor type at least in some form. As it is now they are all generally under one umbrella. Could we see a change in a future patch or expansion release? I hope so. But I don't think it is needed at all, just something that could add flavor for new unit interactions.
"Does your butt hurt? 'cause you fell from heaven once the cast was over?" Artosis
hizBALLIN
Profile Joined June 2010
United States163 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-11 02:31:03
September 11 2010 02:27 GMT
#148
On September 11 2010 10:43 eth3n wrote:
I honestly think it is the marauder. The OP stated it well. Other units that rape buildings:

Siege Tanks
Reapers
DT drop
Immortals
VR rush
Ultralisks (which are actually getting buffed v buildings in important respects in the next patch)
Muta Snipe (outlying buildings)

The above tactics all require significant effort or a substantial risk of loss
VR/DT/Reapers/Mutas are all glass cannon and easily preventable, so their use is only if the opponent is leaving themselves vulnerable, and none of these units generally are made to work well in a 1a
Siege Tanks and Immortals don't really drop that well into a base (ignoring cliff abuse), if the player is steadily crawling with tanks or sending in Immortals with a 1a then you can't really complain.
Ultras are tier3 and Z tier3 takes forever, if you let the game go on that long you should be able to counter or should have already won/lost

Marauders however are a basic unit that has a place in every major composition. They are relatively cheap for their power (not a gas sink whatsoever) and can easily be massed to run them in with stim or drop them in main with stim. This can take out multiple tech buildings in a matter of seconds even if you have the army there to kill them.

I hate to be broken record here but the marauder unit in its current form doesn't seem right.

I think the idea of only defensive structures have armor is an interesting compromise which would leave the stimpak on the marauder yet deal with one of the most annoying aspects of the marauder.


Game. Set. Match. Gameover. End of Game.

I personally think taking Armored off buildings or adding a new category for them would potentially muddle things up pretty badly. Marauders without stim do really nasty things to buildings even in small numbers, but with stim four marauders can wreck a hatch faster than nearby speedlings (their most effective counter in that small of a number) can engage and kill them without losing the Hatch In my mind the solution is simply removing stim from Marauders.

People will argue that they won't be able to kite as well, but Marauders shouldn't need stim AND concussive shell to kite. Removing stim from Marauders will force terran players to make more tanks/thors, which promoted more varied unit compositions (something Blizzard loves) and punishes a terran player going marauder like they're going out of style. 60 stimmed marines can be pretty nasty to deal with but they still have counters. 30 stimmed marauders don't really have a single viable counter short of air, but with stim they can still sprint to their target, annihilate it, and have served their purpose. Some of them (if not most) will most likely survive the attack, and get back to the player's base. It's stim on marauders that I have issue with.

No units, not even the ones intended to destroy buildings, decimate structures like Marauders do. And none of the anti-building units have the availability of Marauders (not even reapers, given the building time disparity, which will only become more drastic in the upcoming patch). Marauders seemed to be a unit initially designed with a fairly specific purpose in mind, but specialized units should be something you punish an opponent for getting. There's simply no way to punish terran massing marauders short of going mass air, at which point your ground army is so weak that Marauder army can simply A-move your base and win.
That which is overdesigned, too highly specific, anticipates outcomes; the anticipation of outcome guarantees, if not failure, the absence of grace.
cyprin
Profile Joined July 2010
United States1105 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-11 02:37:43
September 11 2010 02:37 GMT
#149
Regarding stim:
I had an idea that's probably going to be shot down as terrible
but I think that the health cost shouldn't be able to be healed by medivacs.
As is, there is absolutely no downside to stimming over and over if you have a handful of medivacs over your army.
Stimming should have drawbacks, it doesn't right now.


KillerPlague
Profile Joined June 2010
United States1386 Posts
September 11 2010 02:40 GMT
#150
im gonna hold off on voting on this, but i think this is an awesome question. but what would your status on immortals and ultralisks be?
Side 1: Why no dominant players with 90% win ratio Side 2: Nerf Side 1
blitzkrieger
Profile Joined September 2010
United States512 Posts
September 11 2010 02:59 GMT
#151
Let's nerf marauders and/or medivacs and see how little complaints there are about buildings being armored after. And I'm serious here, I can't think of any other problem with buildings being armored than the marauder and its ability to be dropped cheaply, easily, in multiple locations with little effort on the attacker's part to snipe tech/main bases. If you can provide another example of why buildings shouldn't be armored I'll hear it out.
KeiQQ
Profile Joined May 2010
United States113 Posts
September 11 2010 03:07 GMT
#152
The main issue with marauder drops compared to ultralisk and immortal drops is the same issue the OP stated; almost no risk for a big reward. Toss has to get the Warp Prism, which while being nifty, serves no real combat purpose, and zerg has to spend 300/300 for overlord speed/drop, whereas terran gets their dropship from a unit that already heals their army, theres literally NO downside.If maybe medivacs needed a 200/200 or 150/150 upgrade that let them drop, it'd be less ridiculous, but as of now, the amount of risk a terran takes to drop is way, way, WAY lower than other races.
How much you wanna bet?
Chronopolis
Profile Joined April 2009
Canada1484 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-11 03:27:59
September 11 2010 03:20 GMT
#153
On September 11 2010 06:18 ltortoise wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 11 2010 06:16 Jameser wrote:
On September 11 2010 06:13 ltortoise wrote:
On September 11 2010 06:11 Jameser wrote:
On September 11 2010 06:05 ltortoise wrote:
On September 11 2010 05:47 Piy wrote:
It does feel a little tough when Marauders can snipe a nexus so fast, but I'm not willing to call it imbalanced yet.


It's not like two void rays can't snipe buildings pretty damned quick, too. Actually, faster than 4 marauders!

Four marauders + medivac cost 500/200.
They do ((10 + 10) - 1) * 4 damage per attack, add stim and the cooldown is 1, so 76 DPS.

Two void rays cost 500/300.
They do (25 - 1) * 2 damage per attack, with a cooldown of .6, so 80 DPS (fully charged)

Yes, they take time to charge, but the medivac has to unload, so it evens out IMO.

Food for thought: 8 zerglings with 0 upgdrades do (5 - 1) * 8 damage with a cooldown of .7, so ~46 DPS to buildings (!!!). That doesn't seem like much, but it only costs 300/0, and don't Zerg's have the biggest gas problems of all races?. Of course without the upgrade overlords are slow as hell though, but still food for thought. With +1, two overlords full of lings are dishing out 115 DPS, with the modest cost of 600/0.

I'm starting to think a lot of the complaints are stemming from the popularity of marauder drops. Other races can do similar things for similar costs.

the big difference is void rays are pretty much useless except for voidray rushes, while marauders are part of the standard terran army anyway...

(yes this matters hugely)


I don't agree with this statement.

Why can't a void ray be a part of the protoss army? Everybody jizzed their pants when Terrans started keeping their banshees as a part of their main army when the harassing phase was over, to fantastic effect. I see no reason why Protoss can't do that with void rays, especially if there are a lot of marauders on the field. Keep the void rays in back, firing down at the front line. They can do LOADS of damage...

because starports can be used for many other units that benefit the terran army (medivac, raven, reactionary vikings etc)

stargates can only build phoenix and void rays and as such are a much bigger investment. (not counting BCs and carriers, although here too BCs are clearly superior to carriers)


...? Stargate is also easier to get to, and phoenix have many uses, such as countering ALL Terran air if massed (due to their incredibly high hp and fantastic speed).

I don't understand your points.


First, stargate units do not have incredibly high hp. Individually a void ray may have 250 hp, but when you consider you could get 440 hp worth of marines, or 375 hp worth of marauder. Secondly, void rays have to be charged to even get their full dps out. Unless the terran is terrible, he is going to make this hard for the protoss. And even when the void rays are charged, they are not spectacular against marines, only about average. A terran player can quickly pump out vikings to out range and rape the void rays. When you have 12+ void rays, it's VERY hard to get them all charged.

Banshees are a very strong complement to a terran's army because:

-They have a very competetive damage, stalker vs banshee cost effieciency is almost the same
-They can take a lot of shots from the primary anti-air
-They can CLOAK when upgraded, and 2-shot probes
-They do not need to charge
-They're damage is better on light units
-The terran ball synergizes well with banshee, as any combination of terran ground (think tanks, marauder, marines) demolishes stalkers.

Marauders in the end-game are:

-Massable (small profile means even the back row of marauders is always shooting)
-Durable (1 base armor, 105 hp when stimmed, they can weather most aoe's and survive to be healed by the medivac)
-Fast (unthinkably fast, they are the same speed as SPEED RAYS when stimmed)
-Base razers (as this thread points out)

I think one of the above should be changed...
NicolBolas
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States1388 Posts
September 11 2010 03:24 GMT
#154
If i'm not mistaken all buildings are classified as armored. It seems like buildings fall much too fast to units that do bonus damage to armored. This means that units such as Marauders can take down buildings insanely fast especially late game in large quantities. Marauders are the main issue because they are a easily massable unit that does +damage to armored and when you combined them with stim, it causes Marauder balls to annihilate buildings with no risk since Marauders are amazing units just to have in your army. It just doesn't feel right when an army of Marauders come in, stim, and run around sniping buildings in 1 volley. I'm totally into units that do bonus damage specifically against buildings such as Reapers. What I don't like is having massable units that do +damage vs armored. Its too much reward without risk imo. This would fix marauders and give reapers more of a defined role and even give Reapers more viability as the game progresses.


I've heard this suggestion before. And it all boils down to one thing: Marauders.

If your problem is how much damage Marauders do, then fix that. Buildings don't need to be changed for the sake of one unit.
So you know, cats are interesting. They are kind of like girls. If they come up and talk to you, it's great. But if you try to talk to them, it doesn't always go so well. - Shigeru Miyamoto
Gunman_csz
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
United Arab Emirates492 Posts
September 11 2010 03:24 GMT
#155
On September 11 2010 11:07 HubertFelix wrote:
The armor should be changed.
Marauders drop cannot be stopped by static defense which is kind of crazy for a unit that has such a low gas cost.

Seriously, it's like a reaver drop, it's dumb.


You are wrong .
Marauder drops are like reavers in damage, but unlike reavers, marauders share the agility of the speedlings, hitpoints of stalkers, + the never ending slow spell...

Does anyone else thing marauders should be +5 to armor, and conshell should work similarly to chargelots cooldown.
Began Starcraft journey on 5th May 2009
ltortoise
Profile Joined August 2010
633 Posts
September 11 2010 03:25 GMT
#156
On September 11 2010 12:20 Chronopolis wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 11 2010 06:18 ltortoise wrote:
On September 11 2010 06:16 Jameser wrote:
On September 11 2010 06:13 ltortoise wrote:
On September 11 2010 06:11 Jameser wrote:
On September 11 2010 06:05 ltortoise wrote:
On September 11 2010 05:47 Piy wrote:
It does feel a little tough when Marauders can snipe a nexus so fast, but I'm not willing to call it imbalanced yet.


It's not like two void rays can't snipe buildings pretty damned quick, too. Actually, faster than 4 marauders!

Four marauders + medivac cost 500/200.
They do ((10 + 10) - 1) * 4 damage per attack, add stim and the cooldown is 1, so 76 DPS.

Two void rays cost 500/300.
They do (25 - 1) * 2 damage per attack, with a cooldown of .6, so 80 DPS (fully charged)

Yes, they take time to charge, but the medivac has to unload, so it evens out IMO.

Food for thought: 8 zerglings with 0 upgdrades do (5 - 1) * 8 damage with a cooldown of .7, so ~46 DPS to buildings (!!!). That doesn't seem like much, but it only costs 300/0, and don't Zerg's have the biggest gas problems of all races?. Of course without the upgrade overlords are slow as hell though, but still food for thought. With +1, two overlords full of lings are dishing out 115 DPS, with the modest cost of 600/0.

I'm starting to think a lot of the complaints are stemming from the popularity of marauder drops. Other races can do similar things for similar costs.

the big difference is void rays are pretty much useless except for voidray rushes, while marauders are part of the standard terran army anyway...

(yes this matters hugely)


I don't agree with this statement.

Why can't a void ray be a part of the protoss army? Everybody jizzed their pants when Terrans started keeping their banshees as a part of their main army when the harassing phase was over, to fantastic effect. I see no reason why Protoss can't do that with void rays, especially if there are a lot of marauders on the field. Keep the void rays in back, firing down at the front line. They can do LOADS of damage...

because starports can be used for many other units that benefit the terran army (medivac, raven, reactionary vikings etc)

stargates can only build phoenix and void rays and as such are a much bigger investment. (not counting BCs and carriers, although here too BCs are clearly superior to carriers)


...? Stargate is also easier to get to, and phoenix have many uses, such as countering ALL Terran air if massed (due to their incredibly high hp and fantastic speed).

I don't understand your points.


First, stargate units do not have incredibly high hp.


If you read my quote a little better you'll realize I was talking about the Phoenix, which does have fantastic hp. It's 150/100 for 180hp. Compare that to a viking, 150/75 for 125hp.
Cloak
Profile Joined October 2009
United States816 Posts
September 11 2010 03:28 GMT
#157
Everyone knows Stimmed Marauders are retarded, but why are Reapers godly at taking out CCs, Hatcheries, and Nexuses too? You leave your base for 10s and you could easily lose your base to one of the fastest units in the game.
The more you know, the less you understand.
Chronopolis
Profile Joined April 2009
Canada1484 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-11 03:36:32
September 11 2010 03:29 GMT
#158
On September 11 2010 12:25 ltortoise wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 11 2010 12:20 Chronopolis wrote:
On September 11 2010 06:18 ltortoise wrote:
On September 11 2010 06:16 Jameser wrote:
On September 11 2010 06:13 ltortoise wrote:
On September 11 2010 06:11 Jameser wrote:
On September 11 2010 06:05 ltortoise wrote:
On September 11 2010 05:47 Piy wrote:
It does feel a little tough when Marauders can snipe a nexus so fast, but I'm not willing to call it imbalanced yet.


It's not like two void rays can't snipe buildings pretty damned quick, too. Actually, faster than 4 marauders!

Four marauders + medivac cost 500/200.
They do ((10 + 10) - 1) * 4 damage per attack, add stim and the cooldown is 1, so 76 DPS.

Two void rays cost 500/300.
They do (25 - 1) * 2 damage per attack, with a cooldown of .6, so 80 DPS (fully charged)

Yes, they take time to charge, but the medivac has to unload, so it evens out IMO.

Food for thought: 8 zerglings with 0 upgdrades do (5 - 1) * 8 damage with a cooldown of .7, so ~46 DPS to buildings (!!!). That doesn't seem like much, but it only costs 300/0, and don't Zerg's have the biggest gas problems of all races?. Of course without the upgrade overlords are slow as hell though, but still food for thought. With +1, two overlords full of lings are dishing out 115 DPS, with the modest cost of 600/0.

I'm starting to think a lot of the complaints are stemming from the popularity of marauder drops. Other races can do similar things for similar costs.

the big difference is void rays are pretty much useless except for voidray rushes, while marauders are part of the standard terran army anyway...

(yes this matters hugely)


I don't agree with this statement.

Why can't a void ray be a part of the protoss army? Everybody jizzed their pants when Terrans started keeping their banshees as a part of their main army when the harassing phase was over, to fantastic effect. I see no reason why Protoss can't do that with void rays, especially if there are a lot of marauders on the field. Keep the void rays in back, firing down at the front line. They can do LOADS of damage...

because starports can be used for many other units that benefit the terran army (medivac, raven, reactionary vikings etc)

stargates can only build phoenix and void rays and as such are a much bigger investment. (not counting BCs and carriers, although here too BCs are clearly superior to carriers)


...? Stargate is also easier to get to, and phoenix have many uses, such as countering ALL Terran air if massed (due to their incredibly high hp and fantastic speed).

I don't understand your points.


First, stargate units do not have incredibly high hp.


If you read my quote a little better you'll realize I was talking about the Phoenix, which does have fantastic hp. It's 150/100 for 180hp. Compare that to a viking, 150/75 for 125hp.


And when pheonixes rapes all terran units eh? Don't use the traits of two seperate units and roll them together. Based on your previous posts, it seems you are saying:

Because terran can mix air and ground units in an effecient manner, why can't protoss?

Void rays can't use their strength, which is being charged against armored units, because they
A: are difficult to charge
B: will be shooting marines
C: will be shot by marines (high dps), and get taken out before they can do much damage.

Pheonixes, against a mixed bio ball...just don't do anything. Lifting A unit? Not going to work.

On September 11 2010 12:28 Cloak wrote:
Everyone knows Stimmed Marauders are retarded, but why are Reapers godly at taking out CCs, Hatcheries, and Nexuses too? You leave your base for 10s and you could easily lose your base to one of the fastest units in the game.


Yes, but they are very fragile units. In this respect they served a specialized role: making your opponent want to rip his hair out.
Cloak
Profile Joined October 2009
United States816 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-11 03:37:34
September 11 2010 03:36 GMT
#159
On September 11 2010 12:29 Chronopolis wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 11 2010 12:28 Cloak wrote:
Everyone knows Stimmed Marauders are retarded, but why are Reapers godly at taking out CCs, Hatcheries, and Nexuses too? You leave your base for 10s and you could easily lose your base to one of the fastest units in the game.


Yes, but they are very fragile units. In this respect they served a specialized role: making your opponent want to rip his hair out.


Imagine if Mutalisks had a 30 damage attack to buildings, everyone would be up in arms about that bullshit.
The more you know, the less you understand.
sjschmidt93
Profile Joined April 2010
United States2518 Posts
September 11 2010 03:40 GMT
#160
Of course I'm going to say no, so 4 stimmed marauders can't kill my nexus in 5 seconds.
My grandpa could've proxied better, and not only does he have arthritis, he's also dead. -Sean "Day[9]" Plott
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