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On September 11 2010 10:29 caewil wrote:
It's not simply the Marauder. It's the fact that just getting a unit to heal your army, a unit which you are getting anyway(!) automatically gives Terran access to drops. So if you're playing against a Terran, you always have to be prepared for drops. The fact that the units that make up the bulk of their army are the same units that they will use in a drop means that unlike the other two races, they pay no opportunity cost for going drops. They won't have a smaller army, they won't be building a unit or getting an upgrade just to drop.
Very different from back in BW, where if you wanted to heal your drops, you'd have to use some space for medics. Plus they required using those starports for dropships instead of science vessels.
Exactly.
To top it off, they made the decision to go medivac easier by giving ghosts the EMP ability making them walking and healable science vessels in any Protoss engagement. You rarely see ravens in the game thanks to this stupid decision. Imagine if they gave Protoss feedback on the dark templars - nobody would call that balanced now would they? I guarantee we'd get oceans of Terran tears however, the small changes that have been proposed for 1.1 change very little and solve hardly any problems and already we have quite a number of Terran players calling it game breaking. It'll be funny if one day hardly anyone plays any of the other races anymore and SC2 becomes a major flop in comparison to BW.
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On September 11 2010 12:40 sjschmidt93 wrote:
Of course I'm going to say no, so 4 stimmed marauders can't kill my nexus in 5 seconds.
So what you, and everyone else is saying is that marauders are the problem, not buildings having armor.
And don't exagerrate is not 5 seconds its actually 10 :D
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I wish I could change my vote to keeping buildings armored. Giving them a new type is a shortsighted decision. I like that armored buildings add extra value to units like immortals and void rays (lol) for building snipes. Only marauders need to be changed, they're way too massable to be building snipers too. I'd rather see a reaper squad sniping buildings because they're weaker in battles at that stage, but marauders took their jobs!
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i mean reaper drops would be awesome for building snipes, fragile, but a lot of dmg. that would actually be pretty balanced imo, unlike the bullshit how it is right now with drops.
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On September 11 2010 13:00 Lucius2 wrote:
i mean reaper drops would be awesome for building snipes, fragile, but a lot of dmg. that would actually be pretty balanced imo, unlike the bullshit how it is right now with drops.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Reaper
Reaper
50hp 0 armor
1.8 attack speed 30dmg 16.66dps (16.1 b.c of building armor)
Stimmed Marauder
125hp 1 armor
1.0 attack speed 20dmg =20dps (or 19 b/c building armor)
Both are fast but Marauders do more damage, take less time to build, are more durable, are just as fast while stimmed, can slow, can counter many more unit types, cost less gas (1/2 as much), and form into many army comps.
2 medivacs with 8 marauders cost:
1000min 400gas
1 medivac with 8 reapers (and twice the unloading time) cost:
500min 500gas
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I've seen too many games with limitless potential for epicness ended because a stimmed marauder drop killed a nexus and the defender didn't have 400 minerals to replace it with, thus ending the game.
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Yeah, I too find that buildings go down way too fast in this game. Heck, they usually go down too fast even to normal units and just die stupidly fast vs anything that does +armored.
I would personally find it more fun if buildings were actually tough to kill and required some planning as opposed to dropping a single dropship worth of units and sniping whatever you like in a few seconds before the opponent might even notice.
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Yeah I don't think buildings should be armored, especially if the only unit for me that take down buildings fast is ultras even though none of our units do bonus to armored. -.-
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On September 11 2010 12:49 Rah wrote:
I wish I could change my vote to keeping buildings armored. Giving them a new type is a shortsighted decision. I like that armored buildings add extra value to units like immortals and void rays (lol) for building snipes. Only marauders need to be changed, they're way too massable to be building snipers too. I'd rather see a reaper squad sniping buildings because they're weaker in battles at that stage, but marauders took their jobs!
I think although we love void rays and immortals, most protoss players would be willing to bite the bullet to end the marauder slaughter on nexuses.
edit: wrong quote
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there was a prolonged excitement in groups of units sniping buildings in a main in brood war, but in the GSL and in a lot of other games the effect is somewhat lost when two medivacs full of marauders stim and kill town halls before the observer even has a chance to move the screen to watch it
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An interesting side-grade with this would be a 1 second morph for supply depots. It makes them armored but allows them to pop up and down. Just putting it out there.
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On September 11 2010 13:38 Chronopolis wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2010 12:49 Rah wrote:
I wish I could change my vote to keeping buildings armored. Giving them a new type is a shortsighted decision. I like that armored buildings add extra value to units like immortals and void rays (lol) for building snipes. Only marauders need to be changed, they're way too massable to be building snipers too. I'd rather see a reaper squad sniping buildings because they're weaker in battles at that stage, but marauders took their jobs! I think although we love void rays and immortals, most protoss players would be willing to bite the bullet to end the marauder slaughter on nexuses. edit: wrong quote
A handful of marines or a single viking can deal with void rays easily and these are accessible and cheap counters not even considering missle turrets.
Immortals are nowhere near as effective as marauders (well nothing is effective as marauder drops) and can't heal, kite, move fast, and kill a large number of unit types with ease.
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On September 11 2010 11:37 cyprin wrote:
Regarding stim:
I had an idea that's probably going to be shot down as terrible
but I think that the health cost shouldn't be able to be healed by medivacs.
As is, there is absolutely no downside to stimming over and over if you have a handful of medivacs over your army.
Stimming should have drawbacks, it doesn't right now.
I don't think this will fix the issue, but I have LOVED the idea of stim affecting the MAXIMUM health of the unit for a long time (meaning permanent -10hp). I highly doubt this will come to pass, but right now medivacs TRIVIALIZE stimpak.
This isn't completely germane (sorry), but I couldn't resist.
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On September 11 2010 13:53 eth3n wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2010 11:37 cyprin wrote:
Regarding stim:
I had an idea that's probably going to be shot down as terrible
but I think that the health cost shouldn't be able to be healed by medivacs.
As is, there is absolutely no downside to stimming over and over if you have a handful of medivacs over your army.
Stimming should have drawbacks, it doesn't right now.
I don't think this will fix the issue, but I have LOVED the idea of stim affecting the MAXIMUM health of the unit for a long time (meaning permanent -10hp). I highly doubt this will come to pass, but right now medivacs TRIVIALIZE stimpak. This isn't completely germane (sorry), but I couldn't resist.
http://www.wowwiki.com/Vindication
Basically like this, it might help and seems fair for marauders but I don't think it would be fair for marines tbh.
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On September 11 2010 13:19 RavenNevermore wrote:
I've seen too many games with limitless potential for epicness ended because a stimmed marauder drop killed a nexus and the defender didn't have 400 minerals to replace it with, thus ending the game.
Yes this is not a L2P issue, plenty of Pros are losing because of the speed with which Marauders kill buildings.
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Yeah, the issue is really with the marauders. Even if marines can do similar dps they are more vulnerable to a multitude of defenses (speedlings, queens, mutas, zealots, ht, cannons) that are not really a significant threat to marauders in low numbers. Combine this with the fact that Medivacs are the best dropships by far (faster, tougher and a legitimate combat unit) and it is just insane.
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Just want to throw this in there, planetary fortress would become even better than it currently is.
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1. remove stim from marauders
2. armor damage nerf
one or the other imo
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On September 11 2010 16:11 AcrossFiveJulys wrote:
Just want to throw this in there, planetary fortress would become even better than it currently is.
Agreed. I'd say that the problem seems to be more with the Marauder than any core mechanic.
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Not only Marauders but Reaper's damage to building is ridiculous, 30dmg.. why?
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EPT
