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On June 20 2010 16:18 billyX333 wrote:Adderall ![[image loading]](http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/amphetamines/images/archive/amphetamine_3d.jpg) Versus Meth ![[image loading]](http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/meth/images/archive/methamphetamine_3d.jpg) First saw and read about the very close comparison of these two molecules when I was a freshman in high school. Essentially the two complex substances differ by just one bond. ADD and ADHD is a complete joke of a disorder. Treating it with amphetamines just makes it a bigger joke in my mind. My friends and many other people have many of the 'symptoms' of ADD/ADHD, yet we all live our lives completely free of any sort of medications. Who honestly does not get side tracked when performing simple tasks from time to time? Every single symptom seems completely normal of every single high school student I have ever known.
The extra methyl group makes a world of difference.
Just because the structure looks similiar doesn't mean the effect is proportionally similiar.
Chemistry don't work like that.
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On June 20 2010 12:44 ordos wrote:
I've been taking SSRI drugs (serotonin re-uptake inhibitors) for depression for years, and the drugs work to a similar effect to Ritalin, causing increased focus. They do this by stopping the brains ability to receive serotonin from the body, which is the chemical responsible for mood changes.
Actually, if anything it works the other way around... sort-of. In an over-simplified explanation, what happens is that SSRI's inhibit the re-uptake of serotonin thus "increasing" the concentration or amount of serotonin in the "area" of the brain in which they act... basically, serotonin is "sent" to an "area" where it is meant to cause a certain stimulus, by inhibiting its re-uptake, it remains in that "area" longer and thus can continue to provide the stimulus.
The extra methyl group makes a world of difference.
Just because the structure looks similiar doesn't mean the effect is proportionally similiar.
Chemistry don't work like that.
Sometimes small differences do make a huge difference, but just as frequently they don't. Honestly, the fact of the matter is that compounds with similar structures and slight differences in biochemistry quite often elicit similar bodily responses or have identical functions, but the small differences make the appreciable effect much larger or much smaller. But again, sometimes the small differences can make a world of difference... (and sometimes that world of difference is just that it makes it 100x stronger).
And as per the topic... I believe that drugs, especially "mind-altering" drugs should be avoided if possible... but of course some situations may warrant their use, but gaming is not one of those situations. It's also interesting to think about how drugs used to gain "unfair" advantages in athletics, esports, or just studying, all can have pretty serious detrimental effects if abused.
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+ Show Spoiler +On June 20 2010 17:03 sob3k wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2010 16:18 billyX333 wrote:Adderall Versus Meth First saw and read about the very close comparison of these two molecules when I was a freshman in high school. Essentially the two complex substances differ by just one bond. ADD and ADHD is a complete joke of a disorder. Treating it with amphetamines just makes it a bigger joke in my mind. My friends and many other people have many of the 'symptoms' of ADD/ADHD, yet we all live our lives completely free of any sort of medications. Who honestly does not get side tracked when performing simple tasks from time to time? Every single symptom seems completely normal of every single high school student I have ever known. Where the hell did you go to school man? The fact that you can look at the molecular structure of two substances and they look similar has NOTHING to do with how they act in a complex system such as the human body. Look at Thalidomide: ![[image loading]](http://www.nature.com/nrc/journal/v4/n4/images/nrc1323-i1.jpg) These two are the EXACTLY same molecular structures, one is simply a mirrored isomer of the other. However, R-Thalidomide is a nice sedative drug, and S-Thalidomide makes your kids look like this: ![[image loading]](http://politicolnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/20060321_thalidomidebaby_3.jpg) Thats a pretty significant difference eh? Before you decide to get all irate and opinionated on ADHD and say things like: Show nested quote +ADD and ADHD is a complete joke of a disorder. Treating it with amphetamines just makes it a bigger joke You may want to actually read into the subject and talk to people who are involved in the treatment and science behind the condition.
The only real point made here was the fact that a chemical bond can make a big difference in a substance's effects. You're right.
Where the hell did you go to school man? The fact that you can look at the molecular structure of two substances and they look similar has NOTHING to do with how they act in a complex system such as the human body.
I just like showing that graphical image for shock value and to give interest. I was not really attempting to make a point here. Although the effects of the two substances are similar, the magnitude differs greatly.
It's kind of like how many people like to point out the bond separating rubbing alcohol with drinking alcohol to elucidate the fact that drinking alcohol is a poison. Perhaps not a valid way to illustrate a point, but its interesting if just food for thought.
You might want to lighten up on the personal attacks there, buddy.
+ Show Spoiler +"Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned."
-Buddha
"In a controversy the instant we feel anger we have already ceased striving for the truth, and have begun striving for ourselves." -Buddha
Before you decide to get all irate and opinionated on ADHD and say things like: Show nested quote +ADD and ADHD is a complete joke of a disorder. Treating it with amphetamines just makes it a bigger joke You may want to actually read into the subject and talk to people who are involved in the treatment and science behind the condition.
I have, and honestly, have you? There is a significant number of very experienced doctors, psychiatrists, and drug counselors who absolutely abhor the usage of amphetamines to treat kids.
And I like how you've brought science into this, even though it was not used to invent this disorder. Psychiatry is not considered science and its debatable whether psychology is.
Scientists use empirical data to precisely predict and replicate specific results. Psychologists don't and can't.
See more:: http://www.arachnoid.com/psychology/index.html
note: not to be confused with neurology which actually is a science.
+ Show Spoiler +According to psychology, I have amotivational syndrome (accepted as bogus at this point), "Non-24-hour sleep-wake syndrome" (probably bogus), and perhaps even a schizoid personality disorder (very controversial, many geniuses of the past would have been considered schizoid) to boot.
note- I take no medications, don't see doctors besides for physical checkup 1-2 times a year, and take no treatments. I live, in my opinion, a perfectly normal and healthy life.
My aunt who works in the medical field personally thinks half of all disorders invented by psychologists are controversial if not downright bogus
Adderall isn't going anywhere anyways, so you can use that fact alone to somehow validate your (implied) argument. The substance is too big of a cash cow in the pharmaceutical industry to ever be actually challenged at this point.
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On June 20 2010 20:27 billyX333 wrote:Show nested quote ++ Show Spoiler +On June 20 2010 17:03 sob3k wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2010 16:18 billyX333 wrote:Adderall Versus Meth First saw and read about the very close comparison of these two molecules when I was a freshman in high school. Essentially the two complex substances differ by just one bond. ADD and ADHD is a complete joke of a disorder. Treating it with amphetamines just makes it a bigger joke in my mind. My friends and many other people have many of the 'symptoms' of ADD/ADHD, yet we all live our lives completely free of any sort of medications. Who honestly does not get side tracked when performing simple tasks from time to time? Every single symptom seems completely normal of every single high school student I have ever known. Where the hell did you go to school man? The fact that you can look at the molecular structure of two substances and they look similar has NOTHING to do with how they act in a complex system such as the human body. Look at Thalidomide: These two are the EXACTLY same molecular structures, one is simply a mirrored isomer of the other. However, R-Thalidomide is a nice sedative drug, and S-Thalidomide makes your kids look like this: Thats a pretty significant difference eh? Before you decide to get all irate and opinionated on ADHD and say things like: Show nested quote +ADD and ADHD is a complete joke of a disorder. Treating it with amphetamines just makes it a bigger joke You may want to actually read into the subject and talk to people who are involved in the treatment and science behind the condition. The only real point made here was the fact that a chemical bond can make a big difference in a substance's effects. You're right. Show nested quote +
Where the hell did you go to school man? The fact that you can look at the molecular structure of two substances and they look similar has NOTHING to do with how they act in a complex system such as the human body.
I just like showing that graphical image for shock value and to give interest. I was not really attempting to make a point here. Although the effects of the two substances are similar, the magnitude differs greatly. It's kind of like how many people like to point out the bond separating rubbing alcohol with drinking alcohol to elucidate the fact that drinking alcohol is a poison. Perhaps not a valid way to illustrate a point, but its interesting if just food for thought. You might want to lighten up on the personal attacks there, buddy. + Show Spoiler +"Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned."
-Buddha
"In a controversy the instant we feel anger we have already ceased striving for the truth, and have begun striving for ourselves." -Buddha Show nested quote +Before you decide to get all irate and opinionated on ADHD and say things like: ADD and ADHD is a complete joke of a disorder. Treating it with amphetamines just makes it a bigger joke You may want to actually read into the subject and talk to people who are involved in the treatment and science behind the condition. I have, and honestly, have you? There is a significant number of very experienced doctors, psychiatrists, and drug counselors who absolutely abhor the usage of amphetamines to treat kids. And I like how you've brought science into this, even though it was not used to invent this disorder. Psychiatry is not considered science and its debatable whether psychology is. Scientists use empirical data to precisely predict and replicate specific results. Psychologists don't and can't. See more:: http://www.arachnoid.com/psychology/index.htmlnote: not to be confused with neurology which actually is a science. Adderall isn't going anywhere anyways, so you can use that fact alone to somehow validate your (implied) argument. The substance is too big of a cash cow in the pharmaceutical industry to ever be actually challenged at this point.
Whatever, have your opinion, but don't throw pictures out there that you admit show absolutely nothing to support your argument and exist only for "shock value". Its just a matter of intellectual honesty....
Its like arguing about the latest election and then just throwing out an enormous picture of Hitler....the connection is tenuous at best and destroys any chance of a practical discussion.
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On June 20 2010 21:02 sob3k wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2010 20:27 billyX333 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 20 2010 17:03 sob3k wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2010 16:18 billyX333 wrote:Adderall Versus Meth First saw and read about the very close comparison of these two molecules when I was a freshman in high school. Essentially the two complex substances differ by just one bond. ADD and ADHD is a complete joke of a disorder. Treating it with amphetamines just makes it a bigger joke in my mind. My friends and many other people have many of the 'symptoms' of ADD/ADHD, yet we all live our lives completely free of any sort of medications. Who honestly does not get side tracked when performing simple tasks from time to time? Every single symptom seems completely normal of every single high school student I have ever known. Where the hell did you go to school man? The fact that you can look at the molecular structure of two substances and they look similar has NOTHING to do with how they act in a complex system such as the human body. Look at Thalidomide: These two are the EXACTLY same molecular structures, one is simply a mirrored isomer of the other. However, R-Thalidomide is a nice sedative drug, and S-Thalidomide makes your kids look like this: Thats a pretty significant difference eh? Before you decide to get all irate and opinionated on ADHD and say things like: Show nested quote +ADD and ADHD is a complete joke of a disorder. Treating it with amphetamines just makes it a bigger joke You may want to actually read into the subject and talk to people who are involved in the treatment and science behind the condition. The only real point made here was the fact that a chemical bond can make a big difference in a substance's effects. You're right.
Where the hell did you go to school man? The fact that you can look at the molecular structure of two substances and they look similar has NOTHING to do with how they act in a complex system such as the human body.
I just like showing that graphical image for shock value and to give interest. I was not really attempting to make a point here. Although the effects of the two substances are similar, the magnitude differs greatly. It's kind of like how many people like to point out the bond separating rubbing alcohol with drinking alcohol to elucidate the fact that drinking alcohol is a poison. Perhaps not a valid way to illustrate a point, but its interesting if just food for thought. You might want to lighten up on the personal attacks there, buddy. + Show Spoiler +"Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned."
-Buddha
"In a controversy the instant we feel anger we have already ceased striving for the truth, and have begun striving for ourselves." -Buddha Before you decide to get all irate and opinionated on ADHD and say things like: ADD and ADHD is a complete joke of a disorder. Treating it with amphetamines just makes it a bigger joke You may want to actually read into the subject and talk to people who are involved in the treatment and science behind the condition. I have, and honestly, have you? There is a significant number of very experienced doctors, psychiatrists, and drug counselors who absolutely abhor the usage of amphetamines to treat kids. And I like how you've brought science into this, even though it was not used to invent this disorder. Psychiatry is not considered science and its debatable whether psychology is. Scientists use empirical data to precisely predict and replicate specific results. Psychologists don't and can't. See more:: http://www.arachnoid.com/psychology/index.htmlnote: not to be confused with neurology which actually is a science. Adderall isn't going anywhere anyways, so you can use that fact alone to somehow validate your (implied) argument. The substance is too big of a cash cow in the pharmaceutical industry to ever be actually challenged at this point. Whatever, have your opinion, but don't throw pictures out there that you admit show absolutely nothing to support your argument and exist only for "shock value". Its just a matter of intellectual honesty.... Its like arguing about the latest election and then just throwing out an enormous picture of Hitler....the connection is tenuous at best and destroys any chance of a practical discussion.
You're right; the images by themselves don't complete the comparison. With the addition of text I could have easily made a legitimate comparison about what the difference was and why it has its effects, but I didn't feel it were necessary to clarify.
I did not expect somebody would take drastically different comparisons to somehow falsify my legitimate comparison. I'll take the time to do that now then.
For many of the known psychoactives, adding a methyl group slightly alters the effects, duration, and/or potency. As you start to pay attention to other chemical names, you'll see "meth" show up in many names and this will almost always indicate that there is a methyl group on the molecule somewhere. For Methamphetamine, the methyl allows it a little better fat solubility and thus better penetration into the brain.
Chemicals are always compared in chemistry to learn of the whats and the whys; that is science.
Taking a picture of Hitler to somehow illustrate similarities between him and a president is not.
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On June 19 2010 20:12 lolaloc wrote:
Is this legal in huge tournaments?
No, because taking these drugs, buying, and selling them without a prescription is illegal.
I would not be shocked at all if most of the pro players used them though.
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I used to take adderall twice daily on prescription. I've come to the conclusion that I play starcraft better when not using it.
Also, amphetamine psychosis - essentially drug-induced schizophrenia - is a real risk with adderall (though not as likely as with meth). Having gone through it, I can't recommend adderall to anybody unless they see a psychiatrist once a month. I guarantee you won't know you have the symptoms, in the same way schizophrenics won't recognize their own mental illness.
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On June 21 2010 00:53 PanzerDragoon wrote:No, because taking these drugs, buying, and selling them without a prescription is illegal. I would not be shocked at all if most of the pro players used them though.
Amphetamine is totally illegal in SK. No prescriptions, no OTC, no nothing. Harsh penalties for having, buying, selling, importing, etc. I doubt any of the pro players have even seen or know about Adderall.
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Does playing SC on Adderall or Ritalin make you a Marine IRL?
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I used to have "manic" episodes way back when I was in college (10 years ago). Sounds wild, but it was triggered by taking other drugs (mainly Marijuana).
Took a long time to figure out what it was, but the effects were almost 100% the same. I really had trouble sleeping. I could read 3 chapters in my book and practically memorize them. I had 100% in all my classes, and a lot of free time. I set the curve in my biology class with 100% many times. Needless to say, people didn't like that very much.
I heard the same about Mike Tyson, that he had "manic" episodes, and when he would box off his "meds" he would just destroy people. He was thinking way faster.
Any sort of dopamine agonist will improve your performance short term, there is no doubt. But don't stay on it for more than 2 or 3 days. And have MONTHS between usage. Because I know first hand, the long term effects of too much dopamine (ask any meth addict) are delusions, hallucinations and full on psychotic symptoms. Be careful!
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On June 21 2010 00:53 PanzerDragoon wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 19 2010 20:12 lolaloc wrote:
Is this legal in huge tournaments? No, because taking these drugs, buying, and selling them without a prescription is illegal. I would not be shocked at all if most of the pro players used them though.
Pros have inhuman training schedule, it wouldn't be surprising if some took drugs.
it's the kind of thing you dont want to know to early, after the match fixing scandal esport really dont need to be involved in this.
Just imagine if one day on a newspaper headline you could read:
"They told me it would help me to stay focused"
'Player X tells us everything about the medication given to progamers'
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And I like how you've brought science into this, even though it was not used to invent this disorder. Psychiatry is not considered science and its debatable whether psychology is. Scientists use empirical data to precisely predict and replicate specific results. Psychologists don't and can't. See more:: http://www.arachnoid.com/psychology/index.htmlnote: not to be confused with neurology which actually is a science. + Show Spoiler +According to psychology, I have amotivational syndrome (accepted as bogus at this point), "Non-24-hour sleep-wake syndrome" (probably bogus), and perhaps even a schizoid personality disorder (very controversial, many geniuses of the past would have been considered schizoid) to boot.
note- I take no medications, don't see doctors besides for physical checkup 1-2 times a year, and take no treatments. I live, in my opinion, a perfectly normal and healthy life.
My aunt who works in the medical field personally thinks half of all disorders invented by psychologists are controversial if not downright bogus Adderall isn't going anywhere anyways, so you can use that fact alone to somehow validate your (implied) argument. The substance is too big of a cash cow in the pharmaceutical industry to ever be actually challenged at this point.
There are two different types of science, hard science(which is derived from hard, empirical data and statistics) such as Physics and engineering, and soft science(derived from more observation and theory, which is hard to directly prove due to lack of hardcore evidence directly supporting it.) But they are both sciences and both have led to many new ideas and views. They are both sciences, just different in how they function.
Also, to people who are saying how ADD/ADHD is a "joke" disorder simply overused in diagnosis, ADD/ADHD is a REAL disorder which can have DRASTIC effects on the lives of those effected. I personally have ADD/ADHD and let me tell you, without medicine I
cannot function. Its as if theres a beast inside me.
Just because ADD/ADHD is hard to diagnose and sadly can be overused in diagnosis does not mean people can say that it does not exist.
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I remember taking adderall for about 3 months being diagnosed with ADD but I stopped taking it because I would be staying up all night and I could feel my heart beating constantly very quickly and it'd take awhile for it to stop and it was quite unsettling. I mean I really liked the feeling of it but honestly when it came to playing games it didn't help at all in fact it gave me more tunnel vision however when it came to reading and doing work it really helped out alot.
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On June 19 2010 21:10 nttea wrote:
i've recently been diagnosed with add/adhd... i can get this if i want to! maybe ill become superpro sc player cause of it ^_^
If not you can deal to the rest of us 
EDIT:
I'd only use it for studying though, can't imagine that it would help a gamer much. Doesn't it make you focus on one single thing? While SC is all about splitting your focus?
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its simply amazing, i take this reguarly for school and when i need to get anything done as i have been diagnosed with add
they are both good.
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Sorry to sort of derail the thread a bit but does anyone have experience playing starcraft while on oxycodone or hydrocodone? I have been on them both after two separate knee surgeries and as I was stuck on the couch for a few weeks I played a ton of Call of Duty 4 and found that I did much better while I was doped up. I doubled my kill/death ratio in the time it took to start walking again. I know that CoD and starcraft are not even remotely similar but I'm just wondering if the "in the zone" feeling I got from the vicodin might also positively affect one's starcraft skills.
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If not you can deal to the rest of us
EDIT:
I'd only use it for studying though, can't imagine that it would help a gamer much. Doesn't it make you focus on one single thing? While SC is all about splitting your focus?
That seems like a very good point to me. SC is all about multitasking, after all.
Furthermore, the point must be made that you can't just take some drug and become a supergamer. It takes hours and hours of practice. Like many people have said, just drink some damn coffee if you're feeling groggy! Or simply get some rest.
Also, if you're even thinking about ways of doping for a game then you're a fool, and you've lost sight of the real reason to compete.
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On June 21 2010 05:55 pontrjagin wrote:Show nested quote +If not you can deal to the rest of us
EDIT:
I'd only use it for studying though, can't imagine that it would help a gamer much. Doesn't it make you focus on one single thing? While SC is all about splitting your focus? That seems like a very good point to me. SC is all about multitasking, after all. Furthermore, the point must be made that you can't just take some drug and become a supergamer. It takes hours and hours of practice. Like many people have said, just drink some damn coffee if you're feeling groggy! Or simply get some rest. Also, if you're even thinking about ways of doping for a game then you're a fool, and you've lost sight of the real reason to compete.
And what about doping for school?, it's not just doping for games that isn't right You shouldn't take adderall unless you have a medical condition.
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Um, I'm sorry to intrude on what appears by all means to be a very educated and intense discussion, but what exactly is different between amphetamines and methamphetamines? I immediately thought of the horrible, horrible latter when I read about the former, and I also saw the picture comparison, but about the post which stated that the extra bond makes those chemicals immensely different:
What exactly is different (effect-wise I suppose) with amphetamines and methamphetamines?
Thanks!
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On June 21 2010 10:24 Z3kk wrote:
Um, I'm sorry to intrude on what appears by all means to be a very educated and intense discussion, but what exactly is different between amphetamines and methamphetamines? I immediately thought of the horrible, horrible latter when I read about the former, and I also saw the picture comparison, but about the post which stated that the extra bond makes those chemicals immensely different:
What exactly is different (effect-wise I suppose) with amphetamines and methamphetamines?
Thanks!
Amphetamines - appropriate doses illicit a calming, focusing effect with incredibly high energy.
methamphetamines - INCREDIBLY HIGH ENERGY, ALSO YOU'RE HIGH AS SHIT AND CAN'T STAY AWAY FROM CANDY LIKE WHOA
In scientific terms.
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EPT
