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[QUOTE]On June 21 2010 05:55 pontrjagin wrote:
Furthermore, the point must be made that you can't just take some drug and become a supergamer. It takes hours and hours of practice. Like many people have said, just drink some damn coffee if you're feeling groggy! Or simply get some rest.
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Is there any reason why widely availible commonly used drugs (caffeine, refined sugar, etc) with similiar energizing and focusing effects are any better then the "bad" ones? Seems like a rather two-faced approached given that things like caffeine addiction and withdrawel are very real and all too common.
Additionally, there seems to be a large number of people who are all for ADHD med usage provided they have a subscription for it. Wouldn't this give a majoradvantage to the huge number of overdiagnosed ADHD kids?
I think certain drugs are obviously going to get used if we make them commercially availible. Most people seem to argue their use should solo be used to equalize the playing field (how could it possibly be equal in that regard?)
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While I can't really put much input into the use of Ritalin/Adderal for gaming, I just hope that people recognize that some people do have conditions and that for some, drugs are absolutely necessary to live an enjoyable and productive life. ADD/ADHD are probably overprescribed, but I'm sure that there are people who need more than a positive attitude to help them be happy and productive. I do not have ADD/ADHD, but I do have a different condition.
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I was diagnosed with ADHD when I was a child. Whether or not that diagnoses was accurate, I don't really know, however I'm prescribed adderal currently and it does help; especially with gaming  Not only does it make you relatively better, but imo, it just makes it more fun. However, if you do it all the time, then your body develops a tolerance to it, and it no longer has the effects you desire. Moderation is key, like everything in life, and if you are mindful of your adderal intake then you should be fine. Just don't abuse it and your body and mind should be fine.
However, I don't condone the use of adderall for anyone else. Especially if you're gaming against me !
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On June 20 2010 17:47 ShadeR wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2010 16:18 billyX333 wrote:Adderall ![[image loading]](http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/amphetamines/images/archive/amphetamine_3d.jpg) Versus Meth ![[image loading]](http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/meth/images/archive/methamphetamine_3d.jpg) First saw and read about the very close comparison of these two molecules when I was a freshman in high school. Essentially the two complex substances differ by just one bond. ADD and ADHD is a complete joke of a disorder. Treating it with amphetamines just makes it a bigger joke in my mind. My friends and many other people have many of the 'symptoms' of ADD/ADHD, yet we all live our lives completely free of any sort of medications. Who honestly does not get side tracked when performing simple tasks from time to time? Every single symptom seems completely normal of every single high school student I have ever known. The extra methyl group makes a world of difference. Just because the structure looks similiar doesn't mean the effect is proportionally similiar. Chemistry don't work like that.
Adderall is a mixture of four amphetamine salts.
* 1/4 dextroamphetamine saccharate
* 1/4 dextroamphetamine sulfate
* 1/4 (racemic dextro/levo-)amphetamine aspartate monohydrate
* 1/4 (racemic dextro/levo-)amphetamine sulfate
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adderall
and methamphetamine is also prescribed for ADD/ADHD as brand name Desoxyn
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desoxyn
People going psychotic because of the drug really depends on the dosage, route of administration, and how well they care of themselves. Someone with no to low tolerance that uses 100mg~ everyday for a week will definitely have temporary psychosis (assuming little food and sleep) and will likely be back to baseline after catching up on food and sleep. Now if the (ab)user is genetically predisposed to a mental illness (i.e. schizophrenia) then the symptoms will be more extreme and maybe even permanent.
People are RARELY prescribed 100mg~ of stimulants a day though. The usual range seems to be from 5-30mg. I'm guessing it'll still leave you with permanent effects if you're prescribed for years even at those doses...
Amphetamines seem to be better for gaming (or for anything in fact) than Ritalin and Focalin imho. It lasts longer and has an easier come down.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focalin
Dexedrine > Adderall > Focalin > Ritalin
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On June 22 2010 03:24 Offhand wrote:
Is there any reason why widely availible commonly used drugs (caffeine, refined sugar, etc) with similiar energizing and focusing effects are any better then the "bad" ones? Seems like a rather two-faced approached given that things like caffeine addiction and withdrawel are very real and all too common.
Additionally, there seems to be a large number of people who are all for ADHD med usage provided they have a subscription for it. Wouldn't this give a majoradvantage to the huge number of overdiagnosed ADHD kids?
I think certain drugs are obviously going to get used if we make them commercially availible. Most people seem to argue their use should solo be used to equalize the playing field (how could it possibly be equal in that regard?)
I don't believe refined sugar is considered a drug. Popular wisdom says that non-prescription drugs are generally safer than prescription drugs. In the case of caffeine vs. amphetamine, this is almost surely true. Amphetamine triggers reward centers in your brain (it gets you high) whereas caffeine doesn't really. Amphetamine is naturally more addictive.
When you say "major advantage", I don't think using speed gives a person an advantage at all, really. For a person stricken with ADHD, yeah, maybe without medication they couldn't play video games at all. But for a person without that disorder, speed (which is what amphetamine is called) is not necessary. Some people have used speed and have led productive lives, but I think these people are the exception rather than the rule.
I don't trust drugs at all, really, and I don't believe most doctors do either. I'd let my doctor decide what's best for me, since doctors should be trustworthy (they take the Hippocratic Oath, after all). I don't mess with my body's chemistry any more than I have to.
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Comparing caffeine to amphetamines is like comparing protein supplements to steroids.
And I do believe it gives a major advantage to those prescribed to amphetamines in the short term. Really, those who haven't tried amphetamines wouldn't understand how much of an edge it gives you. You can sit for hours completing tasks with quality and enjoy doing it. It clears any 'brain fog' and your mind becomes so much clearer. Complicated things become so much easier to grasp. The main reason why I think it gets people hooked is the motivation factor it gives you. You WANT to be productive. Of course once you get dependent though it's going to be extremely hard to work without the speed until you recover, which may take months.
Caffeine withdrawal is real, but you can't compare it to the feeling of getting off amphetamines after doing it everyday for even just a week.
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On June 22 2010 11:57 danmooj1 wrote:
Comparing caffeine to amphetamines is like comparing protein supplements to steroids.
And I do believe it gives a major advantage to those prescribed to amphetamines in the short term. Really, those who haven't tried amphetamines wouldn't understand how much of an edge it gives you. You can sit for hours completing tasks with quality and enjoy doing it. It clears any 'brain fog' and your mind becomes so much clearer. Complicated things become so much easier to grasp. The main reason why I think it gets people hooked is the motivation factor it gives you. You WANT to be productive. Of course once you get dependent though it's going to be extremely hard to work without the speed until you recover, which may take months.
Caffeine withdrawal is real, but you can't compare it to the feeling of getting off amphetamines after doing it everyday for even just a week.
I <3 Danmooj
This guy knows what he's talking about... seriously...
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On June 22 2010 12:09 Chupacabra(UCSD) wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2010 11:57 danmooj1 wrote:
Comparing caffeine to amphetamines is like comparing protein supplements to steroids.
And I do believe it gives a major advantage to those prescribed to amphetamines in the short term. Really, those who haven't tried amphetamines wouldn't understand how much of an edge it gives you. You can sit for hours completing tasks with quality and enjoy doing it. It clears any 'brain fog' and your mind becomes so much clearer. Complicated things become so much easier to grasp. The main reason why I think it gets people hooked is the motivation factor it gives you. You WANT to be productive. Of course once you get dependent though it's going to be extremely hard to work without the speed until you recover, which may take months.
Caffeine withdrawal is real, but you can't compare it to the feeling of getting off amphetamines after doing it everyday for even just a week. I <3 Danmooj This guy knows what he's talking about... seriously...
<3
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On June 22 2010 11:51 pontrjagin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2010 03:24 Offhand wrote:
Is there any reason why widely availible commonly used drugs (caffeine, refined sugar, etc) with similiar energizing and focusing effects are any better then the "bad" ones? Seems like a rather two-faced approached given that things like caffeine addiction and withdrawel are very real and all too common.
Additionally, there seems to be a large number of people who are all for ADHD med usage provided they have a subscription for it. Wouldn't this give a majoradvantage to the huge number of overdiagnosed ADHD kids?
I think certain drugs are obviously going to get used if we make them commercially availible. Most people seem to argue their use should solo be used to equalize the playing field (how could it possibly be equal in that regard?) I don't believe refined sugar is considered a drug.
Eat a few spoonfulls on an empty stomach and report back.
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Sorry for bumping this, but I thought that there are some serious misunderstandings about ADHD and Ritalin that I hope to clarify.
I myself has been diagnosed with ADHD in my early childhood. I took Ritalin for a few days and didn't like it - so I stopped. Now I'M 24 years old, and believe it or not my ADHD symptoms are WORSE then what it were back then. don't believe anyone telling you that ADHD 'disappears' Into adulthood, it's not necessarily True (it's quite subjective), and NOW I'M taking Ritalin and it's having good Effect. ADHD simply manifests differently in adulthood (though it's rare that symptoms are getting worse).
As for using Ritalin while gaming, I don't think it's cheating. using Ritalin in an ADHD diagnosed person would elevate their concentration to what it was supposed to be like if they didn't had ADHD. there are, however, NO tests (as much as I know, feel free to correct me) Who prove that Ritalin improve cognition in non-ADHD (i.e Healthy) people. meaning, don't expect Ritalin and Adderall to TurN your brain Into a Super computer, regardless of your neurological deficiencies (or lack of).
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On June 19 2010 21:01 Aphelion wrote:
You're talking about drugs for a video game...
where you can earn tens of thousands of dollars per year...it's only a matter of time.
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don't expect Ritalin and Adderall to TurN your brain Into a Super computer, regardless of your neurological deficiencies (or lack of).
It doesn't turn me into a super computer, but it sure a hell helps concentration and focus in an extreme sense.
They are mental steroids.
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On April 16 2011 20:59 Stoids wrote:Show nested quote +don't expect Ritalin and Adderall to TurN your brain Into a Super computer, regardless of your neurological deficiencies (or lack of). It doesn't turn me into a super computer, but it sure a hell helps concentration and focus in an extreme sense. They are mental steroids.
And just like regular steroids they should be illegal to use unless you've got a diagnosis which warrants it. A parallel would be to tell athletes with asthma that they weren't allowed to use their inhalers....
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On April 16 2011 21:15 Ghostcom wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2011 20:59 Stoids wrote:don't expect Ritalin and Adderall to TurN your brain Into a Super computer, regardless of your neurological deficiencies (or lack of). It doesn't turn me into a super computer, but it sure a hell helps concentration and focus in an extreme sense. They are mental steroids. And just like regular steroids they should be illegal to use unless you've got a diagnosis which warrants it. A parallel would be to tell athletes with asthma that they weren't allowed to use their inhalers....
Ambiguity in diagnosis creates a large gray area. I agree with you that some people legitimately need it, but I haven't met many people in college that I believe have a deficiency that would require a daily use for it.
I know some kids who take it purely for the competitive edge. Their parents even aid them in getting the prescription. My parents were advised that I should take it, but my dad disliked the idea of putting me on speed.
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The above problem that you describe is called drug abuse and it is possible to achieve with any drug.
however, please try to avoid generalizations, as it should be obvious that people who require it medically should be allowed to take it regardless of the circumstances, while people who just use it to improve their performance is abusing the drug and shouldn't be allowed to.
The Grey area is not only how to diagnose, but how to enforce this sort of drug abuse.
I'll explain what I mean. SInce it's a medical drug (at least in purpose) you can't just come to someone and ask:" Hi, do you abuse Ritalin by any chance?". You'll agree that this will be awkward.
you also can't come to someone who won a tournament and call him a cheater because of Ritalin use. if someone would come to me and say it to me, I would next see him at court, as this is considered as slanderous (at least where I live). you can't know why is a person is using a medication, and neither should you.
EVEN if we'll assume that it's cheating (and as I claim it is not), there's no way to prove it. the only thing I can say is that using Ritalin is VERY dangerous unless you are with a diagnosis.
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On April 17 2011 02:09 Skeith86 wrote:
The above problem that you describe is called drug abuse and it is possible to achieve with any drug.
however, please try to avoid generalizations, as it should be obvious that people who require it medically should be allowed to take it regardless of the circumstances, while people who just use it to improve their performance is abusing the drug and shouldn't be allowed to.
The Grey area is not only how to diagnose, but how to enforce this sort of drug abuse.
I'll explain what I mean. SInce it's a medical drug (at least in purpose) you can't just come to someone and ask:" Hi, do you abuse Ritalin by any chance?". You'll agree that this will be awkward.
you also can't come to someone who won a tournament and call him a cheater because of Ritalin use. if someone would come to me and say it to me, I would next see him at court, as this is considered as slanderous (at least where I live). you can't know why is a person is using a medication, and neither should you.
EVEN if we'll assume that it's cheating (and as I claim it is not), there's no way to prove it. the only thing I can say is that using Ritalin is VERY dangerous unless you are with a diagnosis.
Enforcement wouldn't be a grey area. Obviously the same rules should apply to E-SPORTS as to "real" sports where the sportsman have to report what drugs they are doing and then you make random tests coupled with testing nr 1-3 or something like that. And this goes even pretty far down the ranks - I've had to report my asthma to the danish badminton association and whilst I'm definitely in the upper 30% I'm nowhere close to winning money to live off.
And yes, Ritalin is a performanceenhancing drug and it is dangerous to abuse, so just like steroids it should be considered cheating unless you have a good reason (diagnosis) for using it.
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If we found out someone like HuK used adderall specifically for matches would you think any less of him? I don't think I would unless it was expressly forbidden and he knowing broke the rules, I can't see losing respect for a gray area matter.
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It would be interesting to see tournament promoters try to regulate amphetamine use. However, we are many years a way from that happening. Not enough $ or concern involved atm.
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On April 17 2011 02:19 Ghostcom wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2011 02:09 Skeith86 wrote:
The above problem that you describe is called drug abuse and it is possible to achieve with any drug.
however, please try to avoid generalizations, as it should be obvious that people who require it medically should be allowed to take it regardless of the circumstances, while people who just use it to improve their performance is abusing the drug and shouldn't be allowed to.
The Grey area is not only how to diagnose, but how to enforce this sort of drug abuse.
I'll explain what I mean. SInce it's a medical drug (at least in purpose) you can't just come to someone and ask:" Hi, do you abuse Ritalin by any chance?". You'll agree that this will be awkward.
you also can't come to someone who won a tournament and call him a cheater because of Ritalin use. if someone would come to me and say it to me, I would next see him at court, as this is considered as slanderous (at least where I live). you can't know why is a person is using a medication, and neither should you.
EVEN if we'll assume that it's cheating (and as I claim it is not), there's no way to prove it. the only thing I can say is that using Ritalin is VERY dangerous unless you are with a diagnosis. Enforcement wouldn't be a grey area. Obviously the same rules should apply to E-SPORTS as to "real" sports where the sportsman have to report what drugs they are doing and then you make random tests coupled with testing nr 1-3 or something like that. And this goes even pretty far down the ranks - I've had to report my asthma to the danish badminton association and whilst I'm definitely in the upper 30% I'm nowhere close to winning money to live off. And yes, Ritalin is a performanceenhancing drug and it is dangerous to abuse, so just like steroids it should be considered cheating unless you have a good reason (diagnosis) for using it.
I don't think that you can agree to your own argument.
let's assume there is a guy that really likes to run, yet due to a muscle problem, he can only properly run with a specific medicine. Do you REALLY think that he should be banned for using a medication? do you REALLY think that it gives him an unfair advantage?
the only unfair think would be NOT to let him run, since all the medication does is even out the chances, not provide an unfair one.
The same goes with ritalin, the only diffrence being the origin of the problem (muscle in the first case, cognitive in the second). If someone believes that Ritalin provides an unfair advantage, he does not know how Ritalin wotks. so Unless you are a Ph.d in a relevent field I'd expect people to act with a little bit of decency and don't claim to know things that is beyond them.
Ritalin is only performance enhancing to the level you would have been able to reach without ADHD. as I have said, there are NO tests that PROVE effectiveness (and let alone safety) of Ritalin in non-ADHD people. If you claim otherwise, the burden of proof lies on you.
BTW: have you even conceived the option that Ritalin also treats OTHER kinds of illnesses? such as Narcolepsy? would you ban a narcoleptic because he uses Ritalin? I don't think so.
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EPT
