I wonder what your experiences are concerning the use of ritalin/adderall and gaming. how does it affect your gaming?
for those who dont know it:
Adderall
"Adderall is a brand-name psychostimulant medication composed of racemic amphetamine aspartate monohydrate, racemic amphetamine sulfate, dextroamphetamine saccharide and dextroamphetamine sulfate, which is thought to work by increasing the amount of dopamine and norepinephrine in the brain.[1] Adderall is widely reported to increase alertness, libido, concentration and overall cognitive performance while decreasing user fatigue. It is available in two formulations: IR (Instant Release) and XR (eXtended Release). The immediate release formulation is indicated for use in Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD) and narcolepsy,[2] while the XR formulation is approved for use only with ADHD.[1] In the United States, Adderall is a Schedule II drug under the Controlled Substance Act due to having significant abuse and addiction potential."
Ritalin
"Methylphenidate (MPH; Ritalin, Concerta, Metadate or Methylin) is a psychostimulant drug approved for treatment of attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder, Postural Orthostatic Tachycardia Syndrome, and narcolepsy. It may also be prescribed for off-label use in treatment-resistant cases of lethargy, depression, neural insult, obesity, and rarely other psychiatric disorders such as Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder. Methylphenidate belongs to the piperidine class of compounds and increases the levels of dopamine and norepinephrine in the brain through reuptake inhibition of the monoamine transporters. MPH possesses structural similarities to amphetamine, and, though it is less potent, its pharmacological effects are even more closely related to those of cocaine.[1][2] MPH is most commonly known by the Novartis trademark name Ritalin, which is an instant-release racemic mixture, although a variety of formulations and generic brand names exist."
I've taken Adderall and Ritalin while cramming for finals before and the results were simply amazing. Could concentrate for incredible amount of time. Very rarely though I'd become fixated on a minor distraction (like watching my dog sleep would suddenly seem like the most interesting thing in the world and it'd take a bit of effort to get my focus back on studying). I'd say the effects for gaming would be like taking steroids for athletes and would definitely give lots of advantages.
Yes an upside is amphetamines increase alertness, now list all the cons.. which there are quite a few. Just drink a cup of coffee bro, It's cheaper/safer!
Me and my buds used to have "Doterall" or "Honerall" nights where we just plays hours of dota/hon for hours on Aderall. Concentration is definitely boosted noticeably.
"Speed is a psychostimulant medication composed of racemic amphetamine aspartate monohydrate, racemic amphetamine sulfate, dextroamphetamine saccharide and dextroamphetamine sulfate, which is thought to work by increasing the amount of dopamine and norepinephrine in the brain.[1] Speed is widely reported to increase alertness, libido, concentration and overall cognitive performance while decreasing user fatigue."
I've also used adderall numerous times in freshmen year of college and I think the cons outweigh the pros by far. Although everyone has different experiences, I just don't think the addiction, dependence, and come downs are worth it at all. I did have a definite increase in alertness but I can't really recall any details on whatever I was doing. When the effects finally wore off, comedown was just so miserable that I wanted to take more and more. And during the comedown, I wasn't able to eat anything at all or the following day. After some months of abusing, I saw how this was becoming problematic (which I should have realized after first time). It was sad and scary how I became so dependent on the drug so I ended up quitting cold turkey and never saw it again. oh almost forgot, the XR definitely hits harder and lasts longer imo but i really wouldn't recommend any of them for any reason :p
umm... I take adderall whenever i need to work long hours. The people above talk about how addicting it is but I have found the opposite to be true. I never feel like i need the substance or have become dependent on it. When i stop taking it am a bit worn out for a day or two but nothing intense. It is incredible for studying but i find it really intrusive for gaming. For the record i take 30mg xr. All of my friends that try it love it for studying and none of them have become addicted or any garbage like that. Def some huge over exaggeration going on in this thread.
I thought taking my Ritalin while gaming would improve my performance, then i found I cannot i mean cannot play starcraft with Ritalin. When i play using it im so slow its not even funny, I just focus on 1 thing way to much which is horrible in a rts game. If you have ADHD its ironically easier to multi task.
Maybe in fps or something it might be better. I never tested it on thos
I think this is actually a very important subject (especially concerning e-sports) that goes mostly undiscussed, probably because most people are completely unaware (especially those outside the US).
In the US pretty much every retard is prescribed Adderall,Ritalin,etc to make them not so braindead zombie-like. Outside the US you probably have to smoke meth or snort cocaine to get similar benefits. The difference is that you can pretty much take these cognitive enhancers every day without the expense of taking a huge toll on you body like illegal substances.
I am pretty much against its use in competitive play (real sports and e-sports) because it gives one player a huge advantage. it won't make you better by itself of course, but it'll make you much more hungry for the win which makes a HUGE difference (i'm sure most people who play competitive games seriously can understand this). in other words, you'll be using 100% of your capability instead of 70% or whatever... But of course, there is absolutely no way to regulate this kind of prescribed drug use, so there is nothing we can do about it.
I take it for school use only (since I think it is very dangerous if you are not a responsible user), but I used to take it for recreational use during my competitive CS days, and it makes an enormous difference. I like to think of it like this: If I could play myself while on adderall against myself not on adderall, my adderall-self would destroy my nonadderall-self, consistently, every time. if I could do this on SC2 I would prob end up winning something like 15-2 against my non-adderall self.
I know that most competitive CS players use these substances, especially during important matches, etc but I really admire the players who don't. The problem is that most competitive games require a ridiculous amount of hours of practice to become an outstanding player, and oftentimes our body becomes bored, especially those who play 10+hrs a day, and it stops providing the juice we need to get an edge over the other players.
On June 19 2010 21:23 Smu wrote: I know that most competitive CS players use these substances
Really. Can you back up that bold statement with something ?
Those of you that take antiphetamins for fun, watch Requiem for a Dream (if you haven't already), you'll love it.
I know gaming isn't really about healthy living, but taking drugs in order to win now ... come the fucking on.
actually i can't really back that up, im mostly speculating. I know i've seen a few gotfrag articles about it if you want to try to dig them up, but i played in cal-p and although I can't speak for everyone, pretty much everyone in my entourage talked about it
I can't really see how it could help you in Poker, unless you are zerging the small tables to try to make a profit from playing long hours. What a waste..
its doping.... so why the fuck would you do that? just because there is no rule against it (yet). You wouldn't use maphacks either (i hope). so anyone who thinks he has to dope gets a big FUCK YOU from my end!
On June 19 2010 21:23 Smu wrote: I know that most competitive CS players use these substances
Really. Can you back up that bold statement with something ?
Those of you that take antiphetamins for fun, watch Requiem for a Dream (if you haven't already), you'll love it.
I know gaming isn't really about healthy living, but taking drugs in order to win now ... come the fucking on.
actually i can't really back that up, im mostly speculating. I know i've seen a few gotfrag articles about it if you want to try to dig them up, but i played in cal-p and although I can't speak for everyone, pretty much everyone in my entourage talked about it
I can't really see how it could help you in Poker, unless you are zerging the small tables to try to make a profit from playing long hours. What a waste..
poker is a game that always requires a lot of focus and attention.. you can't see how it could help in poker? also, if you're masstabling you can also choose to play higher limits.. no need to "zerg small tables". :p
What you gain in concentration now, you will lose later on in your life. Don't think using this shit is free, because it isn't. Wait until you get to your 30s-40s and watch depression and feelings of meaninglessness set in. Emotional states that you will not understand from where they are coming, and that you will have a fucking miserably hard time doing anything about.
And don't even think about it if you have any sort of heart condition in your genes (most will not be aware of having this).
Not saying this is true for everyone, but I'd definitely say the majority. If you want to sharpen your awareness, find a natural way to practice it. Pay for it with your efforts now, instead of your ability to live a normal life later on. There are plenty of ways to do this.
EDIT: Taking it as a prescribed medication for ADD/ADHD is a different story, that is not what I'm talking about here.
On June 19 2010 22:09 AlgeriaT wrote: What you gain in concentration now, you will lose later on in your life. Don't think using this shit is free, because it isn't. Wait until you get to your 30s-40s and watch depression and feelings of meaninglessness set in. Emotional states that you will not understand from where they are coming, and that you will have a fucking miserably hard time doing anything about.
And don't even think about it if you have any sort of heart condition in your genes (most will not be aware of having this).
Not saying this is true for everyone, but I'd definitely say the majority. If you want to sharpen your awareness, find a natural way to practice it. Pay for it with your efforts now, instead of your ability to live a normal life later on. There are plenty of ways to do this.
What about all the people with ADHD who take this medication their entire lives?
On June 19 2010 22:09 AlgeriaT wrote: What you gain in concentration now, you will lose later on in your life. Don't think using this shit is free, because it isn't. Wait until you get to your 30s-40s and watch depression and feelings of meaninglessness set in. Emotional states that you will not understand from where they are coming, and that you will have a fucking miserably hard time doing anything about.
And don't even think about it if you have any sort of heart condition in your genes (most will not be aware of having this).
Not saying this is true for everyone, but I'd definitely say the majority. If you want to sharpen your awareness, find a natural way to practice it. Pay for it with your efforts now, instead of your ability to live a normal life later on. There are plenty of ways to do this.
What about all the people with ADHD who take this medication their entire lives?
For a lot of ADHD sufferers, ADHD disappears going into adulthood (at least enough to stop taking medication and lead a reasonably normal life).
For the rest, who knows! Apparently Ritalin can lead to all sorts of psychosis, though for most people any psychotic symptoms will stop following ceasing use of the drug. It has also been shown to bring the onset of Schizophrenia earlier.
From Wikipedia: "Methylphenidate is a drug of abuse. Methylphenidate like other stimulants increases dopamine levels but at therapeutic doses the increase is slow and thus euphoria does not typically occur except in rare instances. The abuse potential is increased when methylphenidate is crushed and snorted or when it is injected producing effects almost identical to cocaine. Cocaine-like effects can also occur with very large doses taken orally. The dose, however, that produces euphoric effects varies between individuals. Methylphenidate is actually more potent than cocaine in its effect on dopamine transporters. Methylphenidate should not be viewed as a weak stimulant as has previously been hypothesised. The primary source of methylphenidate for abuse is diversion from legitimate prescriptions rather than illicit synthesis. Those who use it to stay awake do so by taking it orally, while intranasal and intravenous are the preferred means for inducing euphoria. IV users tend to be adults whose use may cause panlobular pulmonary emphysema. Methylphenidate has a high potential for drug dependence and addictive abuse due to its similar pharmacologically to cocaine and amphetamines. Abuse of prescription stimulants is higher amongst college students than non-college attending young adults. College students use methylphenidate either as a study aid or to stay awake longer. Increased alcohol consumption due to stimulant misuse has additional negative effects on health.
Methylphenidate's pharmacological effect on the central nervous system is almost identical to that of cocaine. Studies have shown that the two drugs are nearly indistinguishable when administered intravenously to cocaine addicts. However, cocaine has a slightly higher affinity for the dopamine receptor in comparison to methylphenidate, which is thought to be the mechanism of the euphoria associated with the relatively short-lived cocaine high."
On June 19 2010 22:09 AlgeriaT wrote: What you gain in concentration now, you will lose later on in your life. Don't think using this shit is free, because it isn't. Wait until you get to your 30s-40s and watch depression and feelings of meaninglessness set in. Emotional states that you will not understand from where they are coming, and that you will have a fucking miserably hard time doing anything about.
And don't even think about it if you have any sort of heart condition in your genes (most will not be aware of having this).
Not saying this is true for everyone, but I'd definitely say the majority. If you want to sharpen your awareness, find a natural way to practice it. Pay for it with your efforts now, instead of your ability to live a normal life later on. There are plenty of ways to do this.
What about all the people with ADHD who take this medication their entire lives?
I can only presume they would be doing so to correct an imbalance, not to create one. And on prescription from doctors who know what they're doing, thus minimizing any risks. Quite a different situation from what the op was about.
This is a very interesting topic. Maybe Redbull would be willing to sponsor the next HDH Tourny? Just a thought, but their prime market is the younger crowd and Sc2 fanatics are mostly the younger crowd.
On June 20 2010 00:10 Melt wrote: ritalin only works if you have ADHD, otherwise it has a quite contrary effect and is used often if you have to stay awake for a long time.
Sounds like it's having the same effect on ADHD and those without...it makes them concentrate more easlily....I have an ADHD diagnosis and have been on all of these drugs, they made me hyperfocused and energetic, I definitely couldn't sleep for a while after taking them. Isn't this the same thing people taking them for studying or SC are going for?
On June 19 2010 22:09 AlgeriaT wrote: What you gain in concentration now, you will lose later on in your life. Don't think using this shit is free, because it isn't. Wait until you get to your 30s-40s and watch depression and feelings of meaninglessness set in. Emotional states that you will not understand from where they are coming, and that you will have a fucking miserably hard time doing anything about.
And don't even think about it if you have any sort of heart condition in your genes (most will not be aware of having this).
Not saying this is true for everyone, but I'd definitely say the majority. If you want to sharpen your awareness, find a natural way to practice it. Pay for it with your efforts now, instead of your ability to live a normal life later on. There are plenty of ways to do this.
What about all the people with ADHD who take this medication their entire lives?
For a lot of ADHD sufferers, ADHD disappears going into adulthood (at least enough to stop taking medication and lead a reasonably normal life).
For the rest, who knows! Apparently Ritalin can lead to all sorts of psychosis, though for most people any psychotic symptoms will stop following ceasing use of the drug. It has also been shown to bring the onset of Schizophrenia earlier.
From Wikipedia: "Methylphenidate is a drug of abuse. Methylphenidate like other stimulants increases dopamine levels but at therapeutic doses the increase is slow and thus euphoria does not typically occur except in rare instances. The abuse potential is increased when methylphenidate is crushed and snorted or when it is injected producing effects almost identical to cocaine. Cocaine-like effects can also occur with very large doses taken orally. The dose, however, that produces euphoric effects varies between individuals. Methylphenidate is actually more potent than cocaine in its effect on dopamine transporters. Methylphenidate should not be viewed as a weak stimulant as has previously been hypothesised. The primary source of methylphenidate for abuse is diversion from legitimate prescriptions rather than illicit synthesis. Those who use it to stay awake do so by taking it orally, while intranasal and intravenous are the preferred means for inducing euphoria. IV users tend to be adults whose use may cause panlobular pulmonary emphysema. Methylphenidate has a high potential for drug dependence and addictive abuse due to its similar pharmacologically to cocaine and amphetamines. Abuse of prescription stimulants is higher amongst college students than non-college attending young adults. College students use methylphenidate either as a study aid or to stay awake longer. Increased alcohol consumption due to stimulant misuse has additional negative effects on health.
Methylphenidate's pharmacological effect on the central nervous system is almost identical to that of cocaine. Studies have shown that the two drugs are nearly indistinguishable when administered intravenously to cocaine addicts. However, cocaine has a slightly higher affinity for the dopamine receptor in comparison to methylphenidate, which is thought to be the mechanism of the euphoria associated with the relatively short-lived cocaine high."
In conclusion, taking Ritalin is a great idea!
Wtf is this, sure you can abuse Ritalin...but I know several people including my dad who take Ritalin with great positive effects and have been doing so for years. They did go through clinical trials for these pharmaceuticals you know....They are certainly safe in some quantity.
As for the dosing thing...the funny part is, the doctor doesn't painstakingly calculate you out a dose based on metabolic statistics or anything...Basically you start on a standard low dosage and Increase or decrease it by a few mg at a time until you feel you have a dose that allows you to concentrate without feeling jittery and wierd.
On June 19 2010 22:09 AlgeriaT wrote: What you gain in concentration now, you will lose later on in your life. Don't think using this shit is free, because it isn't. Wait until you get to your 30s-40s and watch depression and feelings of meaninglessness set in. Emotional states that you will not understand from where they are coming, and that you will have a fucking miserably hard time doing anything about.
this definitely isn't true for me considering i took adderal for 5 years for ADD, and now I am off of it and I've pretty much been cured
my opinion on this is: taking it for games is retarded, unless you're just taking drugs to feel good. but then why does it matter if ur gaming. if you can't focus on your games you are playing the wrong games or you actually have ADD or some other mental issues and need to deal with that.
On June 19 2010 22:09 AlgeriaT wrote: What you gain in concentration now, you will lose later on in your life. Don't think using this shit is free, because it isn't. Wait until you get to your 30s-40s and watch depression and feelings of meaninglessness set in. Emotional states that you will not understand from where they are coming, and that you will have a fucking miserably hard time doing anything about.
this definitely isn't true for me considering i took adderal for 5 years for ADD, and now I am off of it and I've pretty much been cured
my opinion on this is: taking it for games is retarded, unless you're just taking drugs to feel good. but then why does it matter if ur gaming. if you can't focus on your games you are playing the wrong games or you actually have ADD or some other mental issues and need to deal with that.
Read up a few posts mate, I wasn't talking about these drugs as prescribed medication (editing my first post for clarity)
On June 20 2010 00:10 Melt wrote: ritalin only works if you have ADHD, otherwise it has a quite contrary effect and is used often if you have to stay awake for a long time.
Sounds like it's having the same effect on ADHD and those without...it makes them concentrate more easlily....I have an ADHD diagnosis and have been on all of these drugs, they made me hyperfocused and energetic, I definitely couldn't sleep for a while after taking them. Isn't this the same thing people taking them for studying or SC are going for?
That assumes that you (and others) are correctly diagnosed. ADHD is believed to be the most over-diagnosed affliction in the world and doesn't even meet a number of the standards for the DSM, but managed to get in anyway. There's quite a bit of controversy involved with ADD/ADHD.
To those people arguing about negative long time effects, do you have any case studies proving these "assumptions"? It sounds like a bromide "drugs are bad", isn't it a question of classification? what about caffeine et cetera..
On June 20 2010 00:10 Melt wrote: ritalin only works if you have ADHD, otherwise it has a quite contrary effect and is used often if you have to stay awake for a long time.
Sounds like it's having the same effect on ADHD and those without...it makes them concentrate more easlily....I have an ADHD diagnosis and have been on all of these drugs, they made me hyperfocused and energetic, I definitely couldn't sleep for a while after taking them. Isn't this the same thing people taking them for studying or SC are going for?
That assumes that you (and others) are correctly diagnosed. ADHD is believed to be the most over-diagnosed affliction in the world and doesn't even meet a number of the standards for the DSM, but managed to get in anyway. There's quite a bit of controversy involved with ADD/ADHD.
Sure, but whats not controversial is that these drugs work, and that they are safe for the people being prescribed them.
On June 20 2010 02:30 BillClinton wrote: To those people arguing about negative long time effects, do you have any case studies proving these "assumptions"? It sounds like a bromide "drugs are bad", isn't it a question of classification? what about caffeine et cetera..
neuroscience is pretty young. i guess you just need to wait and see.
I would never take drugs to help me with gaming. Simply because i find it unnatural, and because of the fact that i do not, and will not, take gaming that seriously. Ever.
If i ever feel like I'm getting sloppy or something, i take a break. Before every gaming session, i go for a 30+ minute run, and that gives me great concentration and focus.
As for tournaments, i think any kind of pharmaceutical stimulant should be banned. From what i read in this thread, it clearly gives you an advantage over an opponent who's not on the shit.
On June 19 2010 23:39 Rekrul wrote: ive played SC on it too and it wasn't good, i kept becoming too focused on micro or something to remember to macro lol
Yeah, I don't see how Adderall could really be beneficial for a game that requires multi-tasking.
For FPSes it probably helps, although I recall at most CPLs CS players were more likely to be baked out of their mind or hungover, than to be ultra focused. Plus energy drinks are huge there, and I can't imagine that it plays well with a bottle or 12 of Bawls.
On June 20 2010 02:36 sob3k wrote: Sure, but whats not controversial is that these drugs work, and that they are safe for the people being prescribed them.
The drug companies said that about the amphetamines and anti-depressants that were prescribed to huge of the female population during the 1950s.
I took them from about age 8 until this year (senior year of high school. ADHD, lol). I have noticed since I stopped taking them (I started to hate the way they made me feel and found i no longer needed them to concentrate) that I actually seem to be better at any games I play. I took them before I played SC so I can't comment on how it affects that, but when I played WoW when using them I tunnel visioned a lot and my teammates always died because I couldn't focus on healing them and keeping track of enemy movement/casting etc. Stopped taking them and improved a good bit.
Anyway, yeah, risks of taking them are quite high so I'd avoid it (unless you like cardiac issues 20-30 years too early).
Its just a placebo effect. Lots of people will feel like they should be doing better, so they do. I actually do need it to go about my schooling, and I've played with and without it. Does not make a real difference. I felt weird playing without it at first, then once it stopped feeling weird, I was doing just as well as I always do. People just trick themselves into thinking it makes a difference. Or they hear about other people using it and do too.
Just look at how some people will spend hundreds of dollars on a keyboard or mouse and think that they are in a better position to win than they were before the purchase. Us as a competitive gamers are always looking for something to help give us a en edge. Don't get me wrong there. I think an average nice mouse and an average nice keyboard will make a difference over total garbage, but you all get what I mean. All that spending tons of money or taking ADD medication does *really* does, is give us the confidence that we are better.
EDIT: Just to add, I think it is also worth noting that people who recently started taking ADD medication will usually have a hard time being as spontaneous or creative or "naturally flowing" as they were before the medication. ADD medication makes people a bit robotic and inexpressive, and it certainly hurts someone's play in a game like Starcraft. The most important skill to have in RTS games is your own cunning, strategic creativity, and overall tactics and strategy sorta stuff. You can't just mindlessly macro and win games.
Overall, as someone who has taken this medication for the past 8 years, I think the argument that aderall can make someone a better gamer is really stupid. I do not doubt that the confidence and placebo effect will make people perform better, but its not like taking steroids and being able to hit a ball farther in baseball. Even as someone who needs ADD medication to do well in school, my play in BW/SC2 is unchanged. Whether I was taking it or not, once I am used to which ever circumstance it is, I do just as well as the other circumstance. I was a 1700 platinum player before this whole Diamond nonsense and the matchmaking going screwy, so its not like I am just bad to where any big change makes no difference.
I also believe that we as a community have an obligation to be more "clean" and not encourage this sort of thought. "What kind of prescription medications can I take to make myself do better at Starcraft?" is a really scary mindset. Its no surprise that the Halo 3 community would get caught up in this sort of thing, but just look at those kids. The TeamLiquid community should be way above that sort of thing.
On June 20 2010 02:30 BillClinton wrote: To those people arguing about negative long time effects, do you have any case studies proving these "assumptions"? It sounds like a bromide "drugs are bad", isn't it a question of classification? what about caffeine et cetera..
To answer this: In canada several years ago, there were several cases of premature (as in, teenagers) heart attacks/cardiac issues linked to Adderal use. I'm sure some googling will find you further info on this.
edit:
On June 20 2010 05:19 Mohdoo wrote: EDIT: Just to add, I think it is also worth noting that people who recently started taking ADD medication will usually have a hard time being as spontaneous or creative or "naturally flowing" as they were before the medication. ADD medication makes people a bit robotic and inexpressive, and it certainly hurts someone's play in a game like Starcraft. The most important skill to have in RTS games is your own cunning, strategic creativity, and overall tactics and strategy sorta stuff. You can't just mindlessly macro and win games.
Overall, as someone who has taken this medication for the past 8 years, I think the argument that aderall can make someone a better gamer is really stupid. I do not doubt that the confidence and placebo effect will make people perform better, but its not like taking steroids and being able to hit a ball farther in baseball. Even as someone who needs ADD medication to do well in school, my play in BW/SC2 is unchanged. Whether I was taking it or not, once I am used to which ever circumstance it is, I do just as well as the other circumstance. I was a 1700 platinum player before this whole Diamond nonsense and the matchmaking going screwy, so its not like I am just bad to where any big change makes no difference.
I also believe that we as a community have an obligation to be more "clean" and not encourage this sort of thought. "What kind of prescription medications can I take to make myself do better at Starcraft?" is a really scary mindset. Its no surprise that the Halo 3 community would get caught up in this sort of thing, but just look at those kids. The TeamLiquid community should be way above that sort of thing.
This precisely mirrors my thoughts. The way ADHD medications make you feel is NOT good - It gets to the point where you have to force yourself to be expressive or excited about anything. It's a completely dreadful feeling to experience and really quite not worth going through.
I also have to express agreement with the rest of what's quoted - especially the last paragraph.
I hope you find you don't need it soon - the shit's terrible.
On June 20 2010 02:30 BillClinton wrote: To those people arguing about negative long time effects, do you have any case studies proving these "assumptions"? It sounds like a bromide "drugs are bad", isn't it a question of classification? what about caffeine et cetera..
To answer this: In canada several years ago, there were several cases of premature (as in, teenagers) heart attacks/cardiac issues linked to Adderal use. I'm sure some googling will find you further info on this.
This is all true. When you go in to be perscribed, your doctor will tell you about all of this. The way that some medications work is that they just get your blood pumping. This can be bad for your heart. Higher doseages means bigger impact. And the worst part is that people who take ADD pills for the sake of feeling faster or more aware or any of those sorts of things, tend to also be the kind of person who starts taking more and more at a time. Its similar to Cocaine in a way. It is easily addictive and can have really negative consequences if used with the wrong mindset. Some people start out thinking "This stuff can make me better and faster" then develop a mindset of "The more I take, the better I am. I myself know someone who fell into that sort of thing, and it was a tough journey for him to beat his addiction. This of course is not the case for everyone. But you guys gotta be careful.
On June 20 2010 02:30 BillClinton wrote: To those people arguing about negative long time effects, do you have any case studies proving these "assumptions"? It sounds like a bromide "drugs are bad", isn't it a question of classification? what about caffeine et cetera..
To answer this: In canada several years ago, there were several cases of premature (as in, teenagers) heart attacks/cardiac issues linked to Adderal use. I'm sure some googling will find you further info on this.
This is all true. When you go in to be perscribed, your doctor will tell you about all of this. The way that some medications work is that they just get your blood pumping. This can be bad for your heart. Higher doseages means bigger impact. And the worst part is that people who take ADD pills for the sake of feeling faster or more aware or any of those sorts of things, tend to also be the kind of person who starts taking more and more at a time. Its similar to Cocaine in a way. It is easily addictive and can have really negative consequences if used with the wrong mindset. Some people start out thinking "This stuff can make me better and faster" then develop a mindset of "The more I take, the better I am. I myself know someone who fell into that sort of thing, and it was a tough journey for him to beat his addiction. This of course is not the case for everyone. But you guys gotta be careful.
Yep. Probably the biggest reason that I stopped taking it is that I became aware of the fact that I could feel my heartbeat constantly. I can't really explain it, but it was very unsettling and, coupled with the fact that it made me fucking robot, made me decide to stop medicating.
On June 20 2010 00:10 Melt wrote: ritalin only works if you have ADHD, otherwise it has a quite contrary effect and is used often if you have to stay awake for a long time.
Sounds like it's having the same effect on ADHD and those without...it makes them concentrate more easlily....I have an ADHD diagnosis and have been on all of these drugs, they made me hyperfocused and energetic, I definitely couldn't sleep for a while after taking them. Isn't this the same thing people taking them for studying or SC are going for?
That assumes that you (and others) are correctly diagnosed. ADHD is believed to be the most over-diagnosed affliction in the world and doesn't even meet a number of the standards for the DSM, but managed to get in anyway. There's quite a bit of controversy involved with ADD/ADHD.
Sure, but whats not controversial is that these drugs work, and that they are safe for the people being prescribed them.
His argument is that the drug had the effect on him that people without ADHD get, therefore there's no difference between the two. However, given the expected level of over-diagnosis, it's completely possible he doesn't actually have ADHD or has a very mild form. That the drugs do something I have no argument against. Whether or not people taking them actually should be is another story.
Mohdoo how can you call taking adderall a placebo effect? I can't even make sense of that.. But yes I completely agree that it makes you inexpressive and curbs your creativity.
Anyway i've found that most people who defend it tend to be regular users and feel they are entitled to it because of their 'condition'. To me the whole "ADHD" thing is a joke, but i'm also not a doctor. It's hard to take it seriously when you see how Doctors diagnose it, and how easily they prescribe it to their patients (im sure pharmaceutical companies have a little part in this ADHD epidemic in America..). the symptons sound straight out of astrology
"A person with ADHD may have some or all of the following symptoms:
difficulty paying attention to details and tendency to make careless mistakes in school or other activities; producing work that is often messy and careless
easily distracted by irrelevant stimuli and frequently interrupting ongoing tasks to attend to trivial noises or events that are usually ignored by others
inability to sustain attention on tasks or activities
difficulty finishing schoolwork or paperwork or performing tasks that require concentration
frequent shifts from one uncompleted activity to another
procrastination
disorganized work habits
forgetfulness in daily activities (for example, missing appointments, forgetting to bring lunch)
failure to complete tasks such as homework or chores
frequent shifts in conversation, not listening to others, not keeping one's mind on conversations, and not following details or rules of activities in social situations"
I took adderall for for my finals and I think it's pretty safe to say it's like "hacking" your brain. It's hard to explain how easy it makes everything that is scholastic. BUT It did make my hands jittery and gave me a general feeling of not wanting to move, just to sit and relax and read. So I don't know how beneficial it would be to starcraft play.
On June 20 2010 06:32 zizou21 wrote: Mohdoo how can you call taking adderall a placebo effect? I can't even make sense of that.. But yes I completely agree that it makes you inexpressive and curbs your creativity.
I was not saying that the entire effect is a placebo. It is extremely helpful for me to keep my motivation and attention on things that I am not interested in. But it doesn't make me some kinda brainiac. It just lets me focus and keep attention on something I may not be excited for to begin with.
What I was saying is a placebo is when people will take ADD medication and think "Hell yeah, I am a fuckin' genius now!" So they go into a game extremely confident in themselves. As a result, they play well. Why? Because they had a ton of confidence, not because of a micro pill or something. Sorry to be unclear, I can see how my post came off the wrong way.
On June 20 2010 07:12 Chupacabra(UCSD) wrote: I took adderall for for my finals and I think it's pretty safe to say it's like "hacking" your brain. It's hard to explain how easy it makes everything that is scholastic. BUT It did make my hands jittery and gave me a general feeling of not wanting to move, just to sit and relax and read. So I don't know how beneficial it would be to starcraft play.
Anyone else feel this?
Yes, me too. But I think it is more so that all of us *really* want to do well in school, yet we get bored or tired of it. Perhaps a lack of interest makes our brains simply not process it as well as we do stuff we care about. Many of us here have no problems analyzing replays, trying out strategies over and over. Yet we struggle to focus on school. Its not that we suck at focusing, since we can focus easily in RTS games. Its that we lose interest and get too easily distracted when doing school work. ADD medications make it so that people can just kinda do whatever they want to do and they won't get bored of it. So as a result, since we already *WANTED* to do well in school, we just fucking dominate all our school work since we can finally focus.
On June 20 2010 06:32 zizou21 wrote: Mohdoo how can you call taking adderall a placebo effect? I can't even make sense of that.. But yes I completely agree that it makes you inexpressive and curbs your creativity.
I was not saying that the entire effect is a placebo. It is extremely helpful for me to keep my motivation and attention on things that I am not interested in. But it doesn't make me some kinda brainiac. It just lets me focus and keep attention on something I may not be excited for to begin with.
What I was saying is a placebo is when people will take ADD medication and think "Hell yeah, I am a fuckin' genius now!" So they go into a game extremely confident in themselves. As a result, they play well. Why? Because they had a ton of confidence, not because of a micro pill or something. Sorry to be unclear, I can see how my post came off the wrong way.
On June 20 2010 07:12 Chupacabra(UCSD) wrote: I took adderall for for my finals and I think it's pretty safe to say it's like "hacking" your brain. It's hard to explain how easy it makes everything that is scholastic. BUT It did make my hands jittery and gave me a general feeling of not wanting to move, just to sit and relax and read. So I don't know how beneficial it would be to starcraft play.
Anyone else feel this?
Yes, me too. But I think it is more so that all of us *really* want to do well in school, yet we get bored or tired of it. Perhaps a lack of interest makes our brains simply not process it as well as we do stuff we care about. Many of us here have no problems analyzing replays, trying out strategies over and over. Yet we struggle to focus on school. Its not that we suck at focusing, since we can focus easily in RTS games. Its that we lose interest and get too easily distracted when doing school work. ADD medications make it so that people can just kinda do whatever they want to do and they won't get bored of it. So as a result, since we already *WANTED* to do well in school, we just fucking dominate all our school work since we can finally focus.
While I agree with you that this might be the case sometimes, I think I should take the time to say that it isn't the case all the time. We gotta remember people with actual ADD, and consider it a serious problem affecting brain chemistry/biology that no amount of interest in a topic can solve. The argument is often given that people with ADD can concentrate, so long as they are interested in something. This is basically a feel good argument that tries to make people feel as if they can surmount their problems through will alone, but it is completely misguided, and that's because there's a lot of false information out there about ADD. While a person with ADD can seem to function like a normal person when they are interested in something, this ability is limited in its scope. That is, any task that requires the sufferer to use strategical or long term planning, to delay gratification, to be aware of time, to name a few, are going to suffer significant disadvantages compared to their non-ADD peers.
The effect that ADD has on a person's life is huge. It can be as as much as disability as autism, and I'm not talking about extreme cases either. People need to see it this way because both disabilities disable the sufferer at similar levels, only ADD isn't take as seriously because it's a lot difficult to measure it without the right knowledge or professional help. Part of the reason is that the side effects of ADD can be explained by a lot of other factors, and people would rather believe those factors then accept the fact that they, or their son or daughter etc, have something wrong with them.
Again, the negative effects are HUGE, and people should start recognizing it so that they can greatly improve the quality of their life, and right now the best and only proven method to deal with it are with drugs like Ritalin. The negative effects of Ritalin are also greatly exaggerated. There are a lot of different drugs out there for ADD and finding the right dosage isn't always easy. The fact is that people with ADD who take these drugs and are on the right dosages, experience significant improvements in their life.
Man, I'd love to talk about this subject with people, but discussing thing on the internet just never works, I have banned myself from getting into online debates because with the lack of physical cues and slow One-person-speaks-then-the-other format its just end up that nobody can tell you are serious and not just trolling them. Nobody is ever convinced of anything because there are constantly new people driving by the thread and not reading it, firing off a response and fucking over the flow while people who have been talking for hours then go back and have to restate stuff they talked about hours ago. Then the one real idiot show up and everyone addresses his moronic opinion for the rest of the thread. I have come to the conclusion that debating complex topics on the internet is a complete and utter waste of time. Without the instantaneous, point/counter of RL discussion and the constantly varying participant pool, it just doesn't work...
I would love to talk to you guys about religion and creationism vs evolution and politics and ADD and philosophy, but I just cant do it here. I used to do it all the time, but after a few years I realized that it just doesn't work at all. Now I see 8 page threads with some idiot arguing against intelligent design using Lamarkian Evolution or a religion "discussion" primarily involving Pascal's Wager and I just keeeeeeeeeeep on browsing...
On June 19 2010 22:09 AlgeriaT wrote: What you gain in concentration now, you will lose later on in your life. Don't think using this shit is free, because it isn't. Wait until you get to your 30s-40s and watch depression and feelings of meaninglessness set in. Emotional states that you will not understand from where they are coming, and that you will have a fucking miserably hard time doing anything about.
And don't even think about it if you have any sort of heart condition in your genes (most will not be aware of having this).
Not saying this is true for everyone, but I'd definitely say the majority. If you want to sharpen your awareness, find a natural way to practice it. Pay for it with your efforts now, instead of your ability to live a normal life later on. There are plenty of ways to do this.
EDIT: Taking it as a prescribed medication for ADD/ADHD is a different story, that is not what I'm talking about here.
read stuff like this makes me sad ;_;.
I'm pretty dependent on this stuff, taking upwards to 40-50 mg a day....
[QUOTE]On June 19 2010 21:12 zizou21 wrote: In the US pretty much every retard is prescribed Adderall,Ritalin,etc to make them not so braindead zombie-like. Outside the US you probably have to smoke meth or snort cocaine to get similar benefits.
I really dont have to read anymore..... P.S : US isnt a planet, your not alone....
I've been taking SSRI drugs (serotonin re-uptake inhibitors) for depression for years, and the drugs work to a similar effect to Ritalin, causing increased focus. They do this by stopping the brains ability to receive serotonin from the body, which is the chemical responsible for mood changes.
Used the stuff for my licensure test. Made a 12 hour study session a breeze where as normally my brain starts to feel like jelly after 6 or so.
I don't see it having a significant benefit in improving game performance over a short period of time. It's not going to make a progamer focus much better during there first couple games, you can only focus so hard and they have excellent focus anyways. Stimulants will help during an all day practice session or all day tournament, or basically stuff that requires lots of focus for relatively long amounts of time when normally your brain wants to stop and rest after a while.
I think its pretty sad that people feel the need to risk their health for anything like a competitive sport- but it exists everywhere, I suppose. I'll leave the rest to Mr.Mackey.
First saw and read about the very close comparison of these two molecules when I was a freshman in high school. Essentially the two complex substances differ by just one bond.
ADD and ADHD is a complete joke of a disorder. Treating it with amphetamines just makes it a bigger joke in my mind. My friends and many other people have many of the 'symptoms' of ADD/ADHD, yet we all live our lives completely free of any sort of medications. Who honestly does not get side tracked when performing simple tasks from time to time? Every single symptom seems completely normal of every single high school student I have ever known.
Damn, that molecule bond is pretty interesting (and frightening)
Also, to the guy taking 40mg-50mg a day: try every week or 2 to reduce your dosage by 5mg. It's gonna suck, and you won't feel "cracked out" anymore, but it'll be tolerable and you won't spiral down into harsh depression. Try to do this until you can get down to a healthy 5mg a day...even if it takes a year
First saw and read about the very close comparison of these two molecules when I was a freshman in high school. Essentially the two complex substances differ by just one bond.
ADD and ADHD is a complete joke of a disorder. Treating it with amphetamines just makes it a bigger joke in my mind. My friends and many other people have many of the 'symptoms' of ADD/ADHD, yet we all live our lives completely free of any sort of medications. Who honestly does not get side tracked when performing simple tasks from time to time? Every single symptom seems completely normal of every single high school student I have ever known.
Where the hell did you go to school man? The fact that you can look at the molecular structure of two substances and they look similar has NOTHING to do with how they act in a complex system such as the human body.
Look at Thalidomide:
These two are the EXACTLY same molecular structures, one is simply a mirrored isomer of the other. However, R-Thalidomide is a nice sedative drug, and S-Thalidomide makes your kids look like this: Thats a pretty significant difference eh?
Before you decide to get all irate and opinionated on ADHD and say things like:
ADD and ADHD is a complete joke of a disorder. Treating it with amphetamines just makes it a bigger joke
You may want to actually read into the subject and talk to people who are involved in the treatment and science behind the condition.
On June 19 2010 22:09 AlgeriaT wrote: What you gain in concentration now, you will lose later on in your life. Don't think using this shit is free, because it isn't. Wait until you get to your 30s-40s and watch depression and feelings of meaninglessness set in. Emotional states that you will not understand from where they are coming, and that you will have a fucking miserably hard time doing anything about.
And don't even think about it if you have any sort of heart condition in your genes (most will not be aware of having this).
Not saying this is true for everyone, but I'd definitely say the majority. If you want to sharpen your awareness, find a natural way to practice it. Pay for it with your efforts now, instead of your ability to live a normal life later on. There are plenty of ways to do this.
EDIT: Taking it as a prescribed medication for ADD/ADHD is a different story, that is not what I'm talking about here.
To be quite honest, I don't think ADD/ADHD is a disease/condition (whatever). I've been diagnosed with it and quite honestly, I think of it as a blessing. The inability to focus means bad shit can never bring you down, and your mind is always jumping around to different places. It also can help with boredom.
First saw and read about the very close comparison of these two molecules when I was a freshman in high school. Essentially the two complex substances differ by just one bond.
ADD and ADHD is a complete joke of a disorder. Treating it with amphetamines just makes it a bigger joke in my mind. My friends and many other people have many of the 'symptoms' of ADD/ADHD, yet we all live our lives completely free of any sort of medications. Who honestly does not get side tracked when performing simple tasks from time to time? Every single symptom seems completely normal of every single high school student I have ever known.
The extra methyl group makes a world of difference. Just because the structure looks similiar doesn't mean the effect is proportionally similiar. Chemistry don't work like that.
On June 20 2010 12:44 ordos wrote: I've been taking SSRI drugs (serotonin re-uptake inhibitors) for depression for years, and the drugs work to a similar effect to Ritalin, causing increased focus. They do this by stopping the brains ability to receive serotonin from the body, which is the chemical responsible for mood changes.
Actually, if anything it works the other way around... sort-of. In an over-simplified explanation, what happens is that SSRI's inhibit the re-uptake of serotonin thus "increasing" the concentration or amount of serotonin in the "area" of the brain in which they act... basically, serotonin is "sent" to an "area" where it is meant to cause a certain stimulus, by inhibiting its re-uptake, it remains in that "area" longer and thus can continue to provide the stimulus.
The extra methyl group makes a world of difference. Just because the structure looks similiar doesn't mean the effect is proportionally similiar. Chemistry don't work like that.
Sometimes small differences do make a huge difference, but just as frequently they don't. Honestly, the fact of the matter is that compounds with similar structures and slight differences in biochemistry quite often elicit similar bodily responses or have identical functions, but the small differences make the appreciable effect much larger or much smaller. But again, sometimes the small differences can make a world of difference... (and sometimes that world of difference is just that it makes it 100x stronger).
And as per the topic... I believe that drugs, especially "mind-altering" drugs should be avoided if possible... but of course some situations may warrant their use, but gaming is not one of those situations. It's also interesting to think about how drugs used to gain "unfair" advantages in athletics, esports, or just studying, all can have pretty serious detrimental effects if abused.
First saw and read about the very close comparison of these two molecules when I was a freshman in high school. Essentially the two complex substances differ by just one bond.
ADD and ADHD is a complete joke of a disorder. Treating it with amphetamines just makes it a bigger joke in my mind. My friends and many other people have many of the 'symptoms' of ADD/ADHD, yet we all live our lives completely free of any sort of medications. Who honestly does not get side tracked when performing simple tasks from time to time? Every single symptom seems completely normal of every single high school student I have ever known.
Where the hell did you go to school man? The fact that you can look at the molecular structure of two substances and they look similar has NOTHING to do with how they act in a complex system such as the human body.
Look at Thalidomide:
These two are the EXACTLY same molecular structures, one is simply a mirrored isomer of the other. However, R-Thalidomide is a nice sedative drug, and S-Thalidomide makes your kids look like this: Thats a pretty significant difference eh?
Before you decide to get all irate and opinionated on ADHD and say things like:
ADD and ADHD is a complete joke of a disorder. Treating it with amphetamines just makes it a bigger joke
You may want to actually read into the subject and talk to people who are involved in the treatment and science behind the condition.
The only real point made here was the fact that a chemical bond can make a big difference in a substance's effects. You're right.
Where the hell did you go to school man? The fact that you can look at the molecular structure of two substances and they look similar has NOTHING to do with how they act in a complex system such as the human body.
I just like showing that graphical image for shock value and to give interest. I was not really attempting to make a point here. Although the effects of the two substances are similar, the magnitude differs greatly. It's kind of like how many people like to point out the bond separating rubbing alcohol with drinking alcohol to elucidate the fact that drinking alcohol is a poison. Perhaps not a valid way to illustrate a point, but its interesting if just food for thought.
You might want to lighten up on the personal attacks there, buddy. + Show Spoiler +
"Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned." -Buddha "In a controversy the instant we feel anger we have already ceased striving for the truth, and have begun striving for ourselves." -Buddha
Before you decide to get all irate and opinionated on ADHD and say things like:
ADD and ADHD is a complete joke of a disorder. Treating it with amphetamines just makes it a bigger joke
You may want to actually read into the subject and talk to people who are involved in the treatment and science behind the condition.
I have, and honestly, have you? There is a significant number of very experienced doctors, psychiatrists, and drug counselors who absolutely abhor the usage of amphetamines to treat kids.
And I like how you've brought science into this, even though it was not used to invent this disorder. Psychiatry is not considered science and its debatable whether psychology is. Scientists use empirical data to precisely predict and replicate specific results. Psychologists don't and can't. See more:: http://www.arachnoid.com/psychology/index.html note: not to be confused with neurology which actually is a science. + Show Spoiler +
According to psychology, I have amotivational syndrome (accepted as bogus at this point), "Non-24-hour sleep-wake syndrome" (probably bogus), and perhaps even a schizoid personality disorder (very controversial, many geniuses of the past would have been considered schizoid) to boot. note- I take no medications, don't see doctors besides for physical checkup 1-2 times a year, and take no treatments. I live, in my opinion, a perfectly normal and healthy life. My aunt who works in the medical field personally thinks half of all disorders invented by psychologists are controversial if not downright bogus
Adderall isn't going anywhere anyways, so you can use that fact alone to somehow validate your (implied) argument. The substance is too big of a cash cow in the pharmaceutical industry to ever be actually challenged at this point.
First saw and read about the very close comparison of these two molecules when I was a freshman in high school. Essentially the two complex substances differ by just one bond.
ADD and ADHD is a complete joke of a disorder. Treating it with amphetamines just makes it a bigger joke in my mind. My friends and many other people have many of the 'symptoms' of ADD/ADHD, yet we all live our lives completely free of any sort of medications. Who honestly does not get side tracked when performing simple tasks from time to time? Every single symptom seems completely normal of every single high school student I have ever known.
Where the hell did you go to school man? The fact that you can look at the molecular structure of two substances and they look similar has NOTHING to do with how they act in a complex system such as the human body.
Look at Thalidomide:
These two are the EXACTLY same molecular structures, one is simply a mirrored isomer of the other. However, R-Thalidomide is a nice sedative drug, and S-Thalidomide makes your kids look like this: Thats a pretty significant difference eh?
Before you decide to get all irate and opinionated on ADHD and say things like:
Where the hell did you go to school man? The fact that you can look at the molecular structure of two substances and they look similar has NOTHING to do with how they act in a complex system such as the human body.
I just like showing that graphical image for shock value and to give interest. I was not really attempting to make a point here. Although the effects of the two substances are similar, the magnitude differs greatly. It's kind of like how many people like to point out the bond separating rubbing alcohol with drinking alcohol to elucidate the fact that drinking alcohol is a poison. Perhaps not a valid way to illustrate a point, but its interesting if just food for thought.
You might want to lighten up on the personal attacks there, buddy. + Show Spoiler +
"Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned." -Buddha "In a controversy the instant we feel anger we have already ceased striving for the truth, and have begun striving for ourselves." -Buddha
Before you decide to get all irate and opinionated on ADHD and say things like:
ADD and ADHD is a complete joke of a disorder. Treating it with amphetamines just makes it a bigger joke
You may want to actually read into the subject and talk to people who are involved in the treatment and science behind the condition.
I have, and honestly, have you? There is a significant number of very experienced doctors, psychiatrists, and drug counselors who absolutely abhor the usage of amphetamines to treat kids.
And I like how you've brought science into this, even though it was not used to invent this disorder. Psychiatry is not considered science and its debatable whether psychology is. Scientists use empirical data to precisely predict and replicate specific results. Psychologists don't and can't. See more:: http://www.arachnoid.com/psychology/index.html note: not to be confused with neurology which actually is a science.
Adderall isn't going anywhere anyways, so you can use that fact alone to somehow validate your (implied) argument. The substance is too big of a cash cow in the pharmaceutical industry to ever be actually challenged at this point.
Whatever, have your opinion, but don't throw pictures out there that you admit show absolutely nothing to support your argument and exist only for "shock value". Its just a matter of intellectual honesty....
Its like arguing about the latest election and then just throwing out an enormous picture of Hitler....the connection is tenuous at best and destroys any chance of a practical discussion.
First saw and read about the very close comparison of these two molecules when I was a freshman in high school. Essentially the two complex substances differ by just one bond.
ADD and ADHD is a complete joke of a disorder. Treating it with amphetamines just makes it a bigger joke in my mind. My friends and many other people have many of the 'symptoms' of ADD/ADHD, yet we all live our lives completely free of any sort of medications. Who honestly does not get side tracked when performing simple tasks from time to time? Every single symptom seems completely normal of every single high school student I have ever known.
Where the hell did you go to school man? The fact that you can look at the molecular structure of two substances and they look similar has NOTHING to do with how they act in a complex system such as the human body.
Look at Thalidomide:
These two are the EXACTLY same molecular structures, one is simply a mirrored isomer of the other. However, R-Thalidomide is a nice sedative drug, and S-Thalidomide makes your kids look like this: Thats a pretty significant difference eh?
Before you decide to get all irate and opinionated on ADHD and say things like:
ADD and ADHD is a complete joke of a disorder. Treating it with amphetamines just makes it a bigger joke
You may want to actually read into the subject and talk to people who are involved in the treatment and science behind the condition.
The only real point made here was the fact that a chemical bond can make a big difference in a substance's effects. You're right.
Where the hell did you go to school man? The fact that you can look at the molecular structure of two substances and they look similar has NOTHING to do with how they act in a complex system such as the human body.
I just like showing that graphical image for shock value and to give interest. I was not really attempting to make a point here. Although the effects of the two substances are similar, the magnitude differs greatly. It's kind of like how many people like to point out the bond separating rubbing alcohol with drinking alcohol to elucidate the fact that drinking alcohol is a poison. Perhaps not a valid way to illustrate a point, but its interesting if just food for thought.
You might want to lighten up on the personal attacks there, buddy. + Show Spoiler +
"Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned." -Buddha "In a controversy the instant we feel anger we have already ceased striving for the truth, and have begun striving for ourselves." -Buddha
Before you decide to get all irate and opinionated on ADHD and say things like:
ADD and ADHD is a complete joke of a disorder. Treating it with amphetamines just makes it a bigger joke
You may want to actually read into the subject and talk to people who are involved in the treatment and science behind the condition.
I have, and honestly, have you? There is a significant number of very experienced doctors, psychiatrists, and drug counselors who absolutely abhor the usage of amphetamines to treat kids.
And I like how you've brought science into this, even though it was not used to invent this disorder. Psychiatry is not considered science and its debatable whether psychology is. Scientists use empirical data to precisely predict and replicate specific results. Psychologists don't and can't. See more:: http://www.arachnoid.com/psychology/index.html note: not to be confused with neurology which actually is a science.
Adderall isn't going anywhere anyways, so you can use that fact alone to somehow validate your (implied) argument. The substance is too big of a cash cow in the pharmaceutical industry to ever be actually challenged at this point.
Whatever, have your opinion, but don't throw pictures out there that you admit show absolutely nothing to support your argument and exist only for "shock value". Its just a matter of intellectual honesty....
Its like arguing about the latest election and then just throwing out an enormous picture of Hitler....the connection is tenuous at best and destroys any chance of a practical discussion.
You're right; the images by themselves don't complete the comparison. With the addition of text I could have easily made a legitimate comparison about what the difference was and why it has its effects, but I didn't feel it were necessary to clarify. I did not expect somebody would take drastically different comparisons to somehow falsify my legitimate comparison. I'll take the time to do that now then.
For many of the known psychoactives, adding a methyl group slightly alters the effects, duration, and/or potency. As you start to pay attention to other chemical names, you'll see "meth" show up in many names and this will almost always indicate that there is a methyl group on the molecule somewhere. For Methamphetamine, the methyl allows it a little better fat solubility and thus better penetration into the brain.
Chemicals are always compared in chemistry to learn of the whats and the whys; that is science. Taking a picture of Hitler to somehow illustrate similarities between him and a president is not.
I used to take adderall twice daily on prescription. I've come to the conclusion that I play starcraft better when not using it.
Also, amphetamine psychosis - essentially drug-induced schizophrenia - is a real risk with adderall (though not as likely as with meth). Having gone through it, I can't recommend adderall to anybody unless they see a psychiatrist once a month. I guarantee you won't know you have the symptoms, in the same way schizophrenics won't recognize their own mental illness.
On June 19 2010 20:12 lolaloc wrote: Is this legal in huge tournaments?
No, because taking these drugs, buying, and selling them without a prescription is illegal.
I would not be shocked at all if most of the pro players used them though.
Amphetamine is totally illegal in SK. No prescriptions, no OTC, no nothing. Harsh penalties for having, buying, selling, importing, etc. I doubt any of the pro players have even seen or know about Adderall.
I used to have "manic" episodes way back when I was in college (10 years ago). Sounds wild, but it was triggered by taking other drugs (mainly Marijuana).
Took a long time to figure out what it was, but the effects were almost 100% the same. I really had trouble sleeping. I could read 3 chapters in my book and practically memorize them. I had 100% in all my classes, and a lot of free time. I set the curve in my biology class with 100% many times. Needless to say, people didn't like that very much.
I heard the same about Mike Tyson, that he had "manic" episodes, and when he would box off his "meds" he would just destroy people. He was thinking way faster.
Any sort of dopamine agonist will improve your performance short term, there is no doubt. But don't stay on it for more than 2 or 3 days. And have MONTHS between usage. Because I know first hand, the long term effects of too much dopamine (ask any meth addict) are delusions, hallucinations and full on psychotic symptoms. Be careful!
On June 19 2010 20:12 lolaloc wrote: Is this legal in huge tournaments?
No, because taking these drugs, buying, and selling them without a prescription is illegal.
I would not be shocked at all if most of the pro players used them though.
Pros have inhuman training schedule, it wouldn't be surprising if some took drugs.
it's the kind of thing you dont want to know to early, after the match fixing scandal esport really dont need to be involved in this.
Just imagine if one day on a newspaper headline you could read: "They told me it would help me to stay focused" 'Player X tells us everything about the medication given to progamers'
And I like how you've brought science into this, even though it was not used to invent this disorder. Psychiatry is not considered science and its debatable whether psychology is. Scientists use empirical data to precisely predict and replicate specific results. Psychologists don't and can't. See more:: http://www.arachnoid.com/psychology/index.html note: not to be confused with neurology which actually is a science. + Show Spoiler +
According to psychology, I have amotivational syndrome (accepted as bogus at this point), "Non-24-hour sleep-wake syndrome" (probably bogus), and perhaps even a schizoid personality disorder (very controversial, many geniuses of the past would have been considered schizoid) to boot. note- I take no medications, don't see doctors besides for physical checkup 1-2 times a year, and take no treatments. I live, in my opinion, a perfectly normal and healthy life. My aunt who works in the medical field personally thinks half of all disorders invented by psychologists are controversial if not downright bogus
Adderall isn't going anywhere anyways, so you can use that fact alone to somehow validate your (implied) argument. The substance is too big of a cash cow in the pharmaceutical industry to ever be actually challenged at this point.
There are two different types of science, hard science(which is derived from hard, empirical data and statistics) such as Physics and engineering, and soft science(derived from more observation and theory, which is hard to directly prove due to lack of hardcore evidence directly supporting it.) But they are both sciences and both have led to many new ideas and views. They are both sciences, just different in how they function.
Also, to people who are saying how ADD/ADHD is a "joke" disorder simply overused in diagnosis, ADD/ADHD is a REAL disorder which can have DRASTIC effects on the lives of those effected. I personally have ADD/ADHD and let me tell you, without medicine I cannot function. Its as if theres a beast inside me.
Just because ADD/ADHD is hard to diagnose and sadly can be overused in diagnosis does not mean people can say that it does not exist.
I remember taking adderall for about 3 months being diagnosed with ADD but I stopped taking it because I would be staying up all night and I could feel my heart beating constantly very quickly and it'd take awhile for it to stop and it was quite unsettling. I mean I really liked the feeling of it but honestly when it came to playing games it didn't help at all in fact it gave me more tunnel vision however when it came to reading and doing work it really helped out alot.
On June 19 2010 21:10 nttea wrote: i've recently been diagnosed with add/adhd... i can get this if i want to! maybe ill become superpro sc player cause of it ^_^
If not you can deal to the rest of us
EDIT:
I'd only use it for studying though, can't imagine that it would help a gamer much. Doesn't it make you focus on one single thing? While SC is all about splitting your focus?
Sorry to sort of derail the thread a bit but does anyone have experience playing starcraft while on oxycodone or hydrocodone? I have been on them both after two separate knee surgeries and as I was stuck on the couch for a few weeks I played a ton of Call of Duty 4 and found that I did much better while I was doped up. I doubled my kill/death ratio in the time it took to start walking again. I know that CoD and starcraft are not even remotely similar but I'm just wondering if the "in the zone" feeling I got from the vicodin might also positively affect one's starcraft skills.
I'd only use it for studying though, can't imagine that it would help a gamer much. Doesn't it make you focus on one single thing? While SC is all about splitting your focus?
That seems like a very good point to me. SC is all about multitasking, after all.
Furthermore, the point must be made that you can't just take some drug and become a supergamer. It takes hours and hours of practice. Like many people have said, just drink some damn coffee if you're feeling groggy! Or simply get some rest.
Also, if you're even thinking about ways of doping for a game then you're a fool, and you've lost sight of the real reason to compete.
I'd only use it for studying though, can't imagine that it would help a gamer much. Doesn't it make you focus on one single thing? While SC is all about splitting your focus?
That seems like a very good point to me. SC is all about multitasking, after all.
Furthermore, the point must be made that you can't just take some drug and become a supergamer. It takes hours and hours of practice. Like many people have said, just drink some damn coffee if you're feeling groggy! Or simply get some rest.
Also, if you're even thinking about ways of doping for a game then you're a fool, and you've lost sight of the real reason to compete.
And what about doping for school?, it's not just doping for games that isn't right You shouldn't take adderall unless you have a medical condition.
Um, I'm sorry to intrude on what appears by all means to be a very educated and intense discussion, but what exactly is different between amphetamines and methamphetamines? I immediately thought of the horrible, horrible latter when I read about the former, and I also saw the picture comparison, but about the post which stated that the extra bond makes those chemicals immensely different:
What exactly is different (effect-wise I suppose) with amphetamines and methamphetamines?
On June 21 2010 10:24 Z3kk wrote: Um, I'm sorry to intrude on what appears by all means to be a very educated and intense discussion, but what exactly is different between amphetamines and methamphetamines? I immediately thought of the horrible, horrible latter when I read about the former, and I also saw the picture comparison, but about the post which stated that the extra bond makes those chemicals immensely different:
What exactly is different (effect-wise I suppose) with amphetamines and methamphetamines?
Thanks!
Amphetamines - appropriate doses illicit a calming, focusing effect with incredibly high energy.
methamphetamines - INCREDIBLY HIGH ENERGY, ALSO YOU'RE HIGH AS SHIT AND CAN'T STAY AWAY FROM CANDY LIKE WHOA
[QUOTE]On June 21 2010 05:55 pontrjagin wrote: Furthermore, the point must be made that you can't just take some drug and become a supergamer. It takes hours and hours of practice. Like many people have said, just drink some damn coffee if you're feeling groggy! Or simply get some rest. QUOTE]
Is there any reason why widely availible commonly used drugs (caffeine, refined sugar, etc) with similiar energizing and focusing effects are any better then the "bad" ones? Seems like a rather two-faced approached given that things like caffeine addiction and withdrawel are very real and all too common.
Additionally, there seems to be a large number of people who are all for ADHD med usage provided they have a subscription for it. Wouldn't this give a majoradvantage to the huge number of overdiagnosed ADHD kids?
I think certain drugs are obviously going to get used if we make them commercially availible. Most people seem to argue their use should solo be used to equalize the playing field (how could it possibly be equal in that regard?)
While I can't really put much input into the use of Ritalin/Adderal for gaming, I just hope that people recognize that some people do have conditions and that for some, drugs are absolutely necessary to live an enjoyable and productive life. ADD/ADHD are probably overprescribed, but I'm sure that there are people who need more than a positive attitude to help them be happy and productive. I do not have ADD/ADHD, but I do have a different condition.
I was diagnosed with ADHD when I was a child. Whether or not that diagnoses was accurate, I don't really know, however I'm prescribed adderal currently and it does help; especially with gaming Not only does it make you relatively better, but imo, it just makes it more fun. However, if you do it all the time, then your body develops a tolerance to it, and it no longer has the effects you desire. Moderation is key, like everything in life, and if you are mindful of your adderal intake then you should be fine. Just don't abuse it and your body and mind should be fine.
However, I don't condone the use of adderall for anyone else. Especially if you're gaming against me !
First saw and read about the very close comparison of these two molecules when I was a freshman in high school. Essentially the two complex substances differ by just one bond.
ADD and ADHD is a complete joke of a disorder. Treating it with amphetamines just makes it a bigger joke in my mind. My friends and many other people have many of the 'symptoms' of ADD/ADHD, yet we all live our lives completely free of any sort of medications. Who honestly does not get side tracked when performing simple tasks from time to time? Every single symptom seems completely normal of every single high school student I have ever known.
The extra methyl group makes a world of difference. Just because the structure looks similiar doesn't mean the effect is proportionally similiar. Chemistry don't work like that.
People going psychotic because of the drug really depends on the dosage, route of administration, and how well they care of themselves. Someone with no to low tolerance that uses 100mg~ everyday for a week will definitely have temporary psychosis (assuming little food and sleep) and will likely be back to baseline after catching up on food and sleep. Now if the (ab)user is genetically predisposed to a mental illness (i.e. schizophrenia) then the symptoms will be more extreme and maybe even permanent.
People are RARELY prescribed 100mg~ of stimulants a day though. The usual range seems to be from 5-30mg. I'm guessing it'll still leave you with permanent effects if you're prescribed for years even at those doses...
Amphetamines seem to be better for gaming (or for anything in fact) than Ritalin and Focalin imho. It lasts longer and has an easier come down. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focalin
On June 22 2010 03:24 Offhand wrote: Is there any reason why widely availible commonly used drugs (caffeine, refined sugar, etc) with similiar energizing and focusing effects are any better then the "bad" ones? Seems like a rather two-faced approached given that things like caffeine addiction and withdrawel are very real and all too common.
Additionally, there seems to be a large number of people who are all for ADHD med usage provided they have a subscription for it. Wouldn't this give a majoradvantage to the huge number of overdiagnosed ADHD kids?
I think certain drugs are obviously going to get used if we make them commercially availible. Most people seem to argue their use should solo be used to equalize the playing field (how could it possibly be equal in that regard?)
I don't believe refined sugar is considered a drug. Popular wisdom says that non-prescription drugs are generally safer than prescription drugs. In the case of caffeine vs. amphetamine, this is almost surely true. Amphetamine triggers reward centers in your brain (it gets you high) whereas caffeine doesn't really. Amphetamine is naturally more addictive.
When you say "major advantage", I don't think using speed gives a person an advantage at all, really. For a person stricken with ADHD, yeah, maybe without medication they couldn't play video games at all. But for a person without that disorder, speed (which is what amphetamine is called) is not necessary. Some people have used speed and have led productive lives, but I think these people are the exception rather than the rule.
I don't trust drugs at all, really, and I don't believe most doctors do either. I'd let my doctor decide what's best for me, since doctors should be trustworthy (they take the Hippocratic Oath, after all). I don't mess with my body's chemistry any more than I have to.
Comparing caffeine to amphetamines is like comparing protein supplements to steroids.
And I do believe it gives a major advantage to those prescribed to amphetamines in the short term. Really, those who haven't tried amphetamines wouldn't understand how much of an edge it gives you. You can sit for hours completing tasks with quality and enjoy doing it. It clears any 'brain fog' and your mind becomes so much clearer. Complicated things become so much easier to grasp. The main reason why I think it gets people hooked is the motivation factor it gives you. You WANT to be productive. Of course once you get dependent though it's going to be extremely hard to work without the speed until you recover, which may take months.
Caffeine withdrawal is real, but you can't compare it to the feeling of getting off amphetamines after doing it everyday for even just a week.
On June 22 2010 11:57 danmooj1 wrote: Comparing caffeine to amphetamines is like comparing protein supplements to steroids.
And I do believe it gives a major advantage to those prescribed to amphetamines in the short term. Really, those who haven't tried amphetamines wouldn't understand how much of an edge it gives you. You can sit for hours completing tasks with quality and enjoy doing it. It clears any 'brain fog' and your mind becomes so much clearer. Complicated things become so much easier to grasp. The main reason why I think it gets people hooked is the motivation factor it gives you. You WANT to be productive. Of course once you get dependent though it's going to be extremely hard to work without the speed until you recover, which may take months.
Caffeine withdrawal is real, but you can't compare it to the feeling of getting off amphetamines after doing it everyday for even just a week.
I <3 Danmooj
This guy knows what he's talking about... seriously...
On June 22 2010 11:57 danmooj1 wrote: Comparing caffeine to amphetamines is like comparing protein supplements to steroids.
And I do believe it gives a major advantage to those prescribed to amphetamines in the short term. Really, those who haven't tried amphetamines wouldn't understand how much of an edge it gives you. You can sit for hours completing tasks with quality and enjoy doing it. It clears any 'brain fog' and your mind becomes so much clearer. Complicated things become so much easier to grasp. The main reason why I think it gets people hooked is the motivation factor it gives you. You WANT to be productive. Of course once you get dependent though it's going to be extremely hard to work without the speed until you recover, which may take months.
Caffeine withdrawal is real, but you can't compare it to the feeling of getting off amphetamines after doing it everyday for even just a week.
I <3 Danmooj
This guy knows what he's talking about... seriously...
On June 22 2010 03:24 Offhand wrote: Is there any reason why widely availible commonly used drugs (caffeine, refined sugar, etc) with similiar energizing and focusing effects are any better then the "bad" ones? Seems like a rather two-faced approached given that things like caffeine addiction and withdrawel are very real and all too common.
Additionally, there seems to be a large number of people who are all for ADHD med usage provided they have a subscription for it. Wouldn't this give a majoradvantage to the huge number of overdiagnosed ADHD kids?
I think certain drugs are obviously going to get used if we make them commercially availible. Most people seem to argue their use should solo be used to equalize the playing field (how could it possibly be equal in that regard?)
I don't believe refined sugar is considered a drug.
Eat a few spoonfulls on an empty stomach and report back.
Sorry for bumping this, but I thought that there are some serious misunderstandings about ADHD and Ritalin that I hope to clarify. I myself has been diagnosed with ADHD in my early childhood. I took Ritalin for a few days and didn't like it - so I stopped. Now I'M 24 years old, and believe it or not my ADHD symptoms are WORSE then what it were back then. don't believe anyone telling you that ADHD 'disappears' Into adulthood, it's not necessarily True (it's quite subjective), and NOW I'M taking Ritalin and it's having good Effect. ADHD simply manifests differently in adulthood (though it's rare that symptoms are getting worse).
As for using Ritalin while gaming, I don't think it's cheating. using Ritalin in an ADHD diagnosed person would elevate their concentration to what it was supposed to be like if they didn't had ADHD. there are, however, NO tests (as much as I know, feel free to correct me) Who prove that Ritalin improve cognition in non-ADHD (i.e Healthy) people. meaning, don't expect Ritalin and Adderall to TurN your brain Into a Super computer, regardless of your neurological deficiencies (or lack of).
don't expect Ritalin and Adderall to TurN your brain Into a Super computer, regardless of your neurological deficiencies (or lack of).
It doesn't turn me into a super computer, but it sure a hell helps concentration and focus in an extreme sense.
They are mental steroids.
And just like regular steroids they should be illegal to use unless you've got a diagnosis which warrants it. A parallel would be to tell athletes with asthma that they weren't allowed to use their inhalers....
don't expect Ritalin and Adderall to TurN your brain Into a Super computer, regardless of your neurological deficiencies (or lack of).
It doesn't turn me into a super computer, but it sure a hell helps concentration and focus in an extreme sense.
They are mental steroids.
And just like regular steroids they should be illegal to use unless you've got a diagnosis which warrants it. A parallel would be to tell athletes with asthma that they weren't allowed to use their inhalers....
Ambiguity in diagnosis creates a large gray area. I agree with you that some people legitimately need it, but I haven't met many people in college that I believe have a deficiency that would require a daily use for it.
I know some kids who take it purely for the competitive edge. Their parents even aid them in getting the prescription. My parents were advised that I should take it, but my dad disliked the idea of putting me on speed.
The above problem that you describe is called drug abuse and it is possible to achieve with any drug. however, please try to avoid generalizations, as it should be obvious that people who require it medically should be allowed to take it regardless of the circumstances, while people who just use it to improve their performance is abusing the drug and shouldn't be allowed to. The Grey area is not only how to diagnose, but how to enforce this sort of drug abuse.
I'll explain what I mean. SInce it's a medical drug (at least in purpose) you can't just come to someone and ask:" Hi, do you abuse Ritalin by any chance?". You'll agree that this will be awkward. you also can't come to someone who won a tournament and call him a cheater because of Ritalin use. if someone would come to me and say it to me, I would next see him at court, as this is considered as slanderous (at least where I live). you can't know why is a person is using a medication, and neither should you.
EVEN if we'll assume that it's cheating (and as I claim it is not), there's no way to prove it. the only thing I can say is that using Ritalin is VERY dangerous unless you are with a diagnosis.
On April 17 2011 02:09 Skeith86 wrote: The above problem that you describe is called drug abuse and it is possible to achieve with any drug. however, please try to avoid generalizations, as it should be obvious that people who require it medically should be allowed to take it regardless of the circumstances, while people who just use it to improve their performance is abusing the drug and shouldn't be allowed to. The Grey area is not only how to diagnose, but how to enforce this sort of drug abuse.
I'll explain what I mean. SInce it's a medical drug (at least in purpose) you can't just come to someone and ask:" Hi, do you abuse Ritalin by any chance?". You'll agree that this will be awkward. you also can't come to someone who won a tournament and call him a cheater because of Ritalin use. if someone would come to me and say it to me, I would next see him at court, as this is considered as slanderous (at least where I live). you can't know why is a person is using a medication, and neither should you.
EVEN if we'll assume that it's cheating (and as I claim it is not), there's no way to prove it. the only thing I can say is that using Ritalin is VERY dangerous unless you are with a diagnosis.
Enforcement wouldn't be a grey area. Obviously the same rules should apply to E-SPORTS as to "real" sports where the sportsman have to report what drugs they are doing and then you make random tests coupled with testing nr 1-3 or something like that. And this goes even pretty far down the ranks - I've had to report my asthma to the danish badminton association and whilst I'm definitely in the upper 30% I'm nowhere close to winning money to live off.
And yes, Ritalin is a performanceenhancing drug and it is dangerous to abuse, so just like steroids it should be considered cheating unless you have a good reason (diagnosis) for using it.
If we found out someone like HuK used adderall specifically for matches would you think any less of him? I don't think I would unless it was expressly forbidden and he knowing broke the rules, I can't see losing respect for a gray area matter.
It would be interesting to see tournament promoters try to regulate amphetamine use. However, we are many years a way from that happening. Not enough $ or concern involved atm.
On April 17 2011 02:09 Skeith86 wrote: The above problem that you describe is called drug abuse and it is possible to achieve with any drug. however, please try to avoid generalizations, as it should be obvious that people who require it medically should be allowed to take it regardless of the circumstances, while people who just use it to improve their performance is abusing the drug and shouldn't be allowed to. The Grey area is not only how to diagnose, but how to enforce this sort of drug abuse.
I'll explain what I mean. SInce it's a medical drug (at least in purpose) you can't just come to someone and ask:" Hi, do you abuse Ritalin by any chance?". You'll agree that this will be awkward. you also can't come to someone who won a tournament and call him a cheater because of Ritalin use. if someone would come to me and say it to me, I would next see him at court, as this is considered as slanderous (at least where I live). you can't know why is a person is using a medication, and neither should you.
EVEN if we'll assume that it's cheating (and as I claim it is not), there's no way to prove it. the only thing I can say is that using Ritalin is VERY dangerous unless you are with a diagnosis.
Enforcement wouldn't be a grey area. Obviously the same rules should apply to E-SPORTS as to "real" sports where the sportsman have to report what drugs they are doing and then you make random tests coupled with testing nr 1-3 or something like that. And this goes even pretty far down the ranks - I've had to report my asthma to the danish badminton association and whilst I'm definitely in the upper 30% I'm nowhere close to winning money to live off.
And yes, Ritalin is a performanceenhancing drug and it is dangerous to abuse, so just like steroids it should be considered cheating unless you have a good reason (diagnosis) for using it.
I don't think that you can agree to your own argument. let's assume there is a guy that really likes to run, yet due to a muscle problem, he can only properly run with a specific medicine. Do you REALLY think that he should be banned for using a medication? do you REALLY think that it gives him an unfair advantage? the only unfair think would be NOT to let him run, since all the medication does is even out the chances, not provide an unfair one. The same goes with ritalin, the only diffrence being the origin of the problem (muscle in the first case, cognitive in the second). If someone believes that Ritalin provides an unfair advantage, he does not know how Ritalin wotks. so Unless you are a Ph.d in a relevent field I'd expect people to act with a little bit of decency and don't claim to know things that is beyond them. Ritalin is only performance enhancing to the level you would have been able to reach without ADHD. as I have said, there are NO tests that PROVE effectiveness (and let alone safety) of Ritalin in non-ADHD people. If you claim otherwise, the burden of proof lies on you. BTW: have you even conceived the option that Ritalin also treats OTHER kinds of illnesses? such as Narcolepsy? would you ban a narcoleptic because he uses Ritalin? I don't think so.
EPT
![[image loading]](http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/amphetamines/images/archive/amphetamine_3d.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/meth/images/archive/methamphetamine_3d.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.nature.com/nrc/journal/v4/n4/images/nrc1323-i1.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://politicolnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/20060321_thalidomidebaby_3.jpg)
Not only does it make you relatively better, but imo, it just makes it more fun. However, if you do it all the time, then your body develops a tolerance to it, and it no longer has the effects you desire. Moderation is key, like everything in life, and if you are mindful of your adderal intake then you should be fine. Just don't abuse it and your body and mind should be fine. 
