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New Mechanic
I think BL should have just their initial attack BUT have an auto-cast ability that you can activate that costs a certain amount of energy per shot. This ability will be what spawns the broodlings so when the ability is not activated then the BL just does its initial attack but does not spawn the broodlings. I think this would give much more depth to the BL because you would have to manage the ability and you wouldnt be able to put on a crazy amount of pressure right away but rather wait a little longer for the energy to build up... or not... that would depend on the choice the player has to make.
*also note that giving BL energy will make them susceptible to Feedback from HTs*
just a factor to consider to any solutions via giving BL energy
EDIT: ooh EMP too, forgot about that one 
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On April 19 2010 17:16 Johoseph wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 17:09 lowlypawn wrote:
First off let me say that I don’t have a beta key (I think Blizzard hates me) so I could be way off on my observations but I have been keeping up with SC2 and watching a lot of Youtube videos. So with that said.
The consensus seems to be the main issue is the broodlings is how it screws up the AI. Wasn’t one of the main bitches about SC2 was the AI was too good? It was TOO easy to attack, surround units and that every player will now be able to focus on macro? Aren’t Broodlords big and slow? Can’t you just focus fire them and ignore the broodlings? Can’t you simply run away ground units that can’t attack air? Can’t you simply mass Air to Air units and take them out? It seems with the proper units and a little bit of micro they should be fairly easy to counter? Now we have a unit that forces the other player to micro and suddenly it’s called “imbalords”…
Broodlords reminds me of Chimaeras in WC3. Yes they are powerful but they are also easy to counter if you see them coming.
Shhh. Stop talking about air units. Lets just keep talking about how ground units die to them, it keeps the "nerf BLs" argument stronger!
Starcraft should not require you to get air to counter something. Generally each race has 1 air vs air specialist (protoss has zero in this case since phoenix doesn't do great damage against non-light) and requiring a specific unit to counter something leaves people incredibly vulnerable if they haven't invested heavily in the production facilities needed for the counter.
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Ryuu314, you seem to be hating the BLs as they consistently poonage you but i play zerg and let me tell you, i am very frustrated with sentries and immortals. The reason you always see BL's in your games is because as a zerg, there is no answer to a large toss army that is microed well. zerg just fails. how about we nerf BLs (which we see every game) if we nerf collosis, sentries and immortals (which we also see every game) ^^ ok thats not constructive, i guess im saying the game needs a lot of work wich i guess is redundant cause its the beta. just a rant then.
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If it hasn't been suggested, just broodlings pushable, like how you can push your own units around, or the units of a disconnected player. Broodlings could still be as effective units in their own right, they just wouldn't be able to spawn a permanent movement obstructing wall, which is something that should be reserved for the protoss race
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On April 19 2010 17:22 No_Roo wrote:If it hasn't been suggested, just broodlings pushable, like how you can push your own units around, or the units of a disconnected player. Broodlings could still be as effective units in their own right, they just wouldn't be able to spawn a permanent movement obstructing wall, which is something that should be reserved for the protoss race
Actually, that wouldn't be a bad fix for ultras. Let them push any non-massive units out of the way. It might fix some of their micro without shitting on collosi.
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edit: Read through bullet points 1-4 since the first two doesn't quite make sense each on their own
These are changes that I propose be made if there turns out to be a general cause for concern regarding broodlords. But right now I'm asking for a few replays from OP to substantiate the proposed claim of imbalords(no I'm not saying you arent a recognised member or something such). Anywho:
- Change clipping size(?) of the broodlings so that they don't completely wall of any units that want to go forward.
- Increase the movement speed of the broodlords just a bit(since units being fired upon can now move much easier through the mass of broodlings).
- Change the attack speed of broodlords and the spawn time of broodlings so that if a zerg player has four or less broodlords they can't create a "wall" of broodlings that hinders enemy units from going forward(although the broodlings bunching up will create small chokes but enemy units can still get past the broodlings with some micro). Attack speed and spawn time is of course balanced against the changed clipping size. Also need to change the damage done by broodlings so the dps of broodlords isnt lessened(imho they deal the right amount of dmg for a T3 unit).
- If a zerg player investes enough resources into five or more broodlords the attack speed of broodlords and clipping size of the broodlings will now have the effect of walling of the enemy units path so they either have to go around the broodlings or go back and wait for the proper units(or just having enough units) to deal with the broodlords(yeah that's right, you are getting punished for not getting the right units to deal with the broodlords and letting the zerg mass up a huge amount of resources and time to just spend on getting broodlords).
Quick facts about the broodlord(and how I came to the conclusion about four and five broodlords):
* Cost of Corruptor in mineral/gas/build time: 150/100/40
* Cost of Broodlord morph in mineral/gas/build time: 150/150/34
* Total cost of 1 broodlord: 300/250/74
* Total cost of 4 broodlords: 1200/1000/74 (build time will vary from 74 seconds up to 74x4 seconds depending on if you get them at the same time or in succession, duh  )
* Total cost of 5 broodlords: 1500/1250/74(again with the spawning at the same time or in succession, but probably in succession otherwise ground army will suffer too much).
Having invested this much minerals and gas and time into getting broodlords(which is also quite late in the game) you should be getting an advantage just like you do when getting bc's of equal amount of resources or carriers. Which directly leads to another question:
Do the broodlords really need to change from what they are now?
Maybe some sort of tweak is needed and what I proposed just isnt it, but imho players need to flank more during battles becuase what you see now on streams are huge balls meeting up and just going at it until one ball is smaller than the other, or small skirmishes which end early or mid game with one player being declared winner. In other words we need time for players to get used to units and start being creative with their positioning. And like someone else said in this thread, you hardly ever see broodlords so maybe they arent as imba as alot of people want to think.
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Ryuu314 wrote:
Generally, I counter BL+hydra with blink stalkers, sentries, and colossi. It works pretty well, but the only problem is that your colossi can't focus the hydras when they're trying to kill off all the broodlings. Also, you have to blink your stalkers pretty much right into the hydras in order to focus fire the broodlords. A good zerg will just move away with his broodlords while laughing at your stalkers getting raped by his hydras.
Wait... You blink directly to his BLs........ and he moves them away? MOVES THEM AWAY!? It takes a BL about a month and a half to move the distance one blink can move. Seriously, no, I just can't believe anything you say anymore. Apparently these Zerg are busting out some incredible micro with BLs, moving them away from your much much faster units.
BUT WAIT. He just moved them away... aka the broodling line is gone. New strategy in the making !???? Wowie.
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On April 19 2010 17:14 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 17:08 HeyheyLBJ wrote:On April 19 2010 17:00 Ryuu314 wrote:
And for the record, BLs are not the most expensive unit in the game for everyone who's screaming that (Heyhey). Carriers cost 550/300 (more minerals) and the Mothership costs 400/400 (more gas). Additionally, you're completely retarded if you think coruptors are useless. They are very good AA units (in PvZ I can't speak for TvZ as I don't play that matchup) and also act as a very solid counter against Colossi. It's not uncommon for a Zerg to have some Corruptors lying around for earlier anti-Colossi measures or even just simple air superiority (they're pretty good against Phoenix and passable against Void Rays.) Yeah, while Carriers don't cost 550/300 even with interceptors they are arguably more expensive than Brood Lords if you count the intercetptor cost. Battlecruisers are too. My mistake. Still I stand by that they are BY FAR the hardest unit to get in a real game. 8 interceptors at 25 minerals each is 200. They cost 350/300 regularly. Hence 550/300 and often you'll have to rebuild interceptors constantly as hydralisk are very good at killing them. Every single late game PvZ I've played had BLs in it. I was previously rank1 gold and got promoted so now I'm top 30 platinum. It's not just in iunno, non-real games or low-ranked games where they appear. I don't auto-lose every time the Zerg gets them, but the amount of damage they do is just incredibly disproportionate. The difficulty of getting them is incredibly overstated. Corruptors are pretty common in PvZ as a very good counter to not only colossi but protoss air in general. Furthermore, getting a hive and later, a greater spire, is not uncommon either. Infestation pits are very common as infestors are still very useful with their fungal growth ability even after the neural parasite nerf. Morphing a Hive and Greater Spire is an additional 250/350 in resource cost. That's not that expensive at all. Yes, it takes time for those buildings to morph, but it's not like Zerg production is completely stopped or anything during the building upgrade time.
You can't just make up that Carriers cost 50 extra gas, or that they don't start with 4 interceptors already, and claim they're more expensive. Sorry.
And you don't get to say that just because some buildings can be useful, the cost can be neglected completely. Zerg players don't build all those buildings just for fun. They certainly don't build a Spire AND an Infestation Pit if they're not going for a Hive, and they don't go for a Hive unless they're going for Brood Lords.
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On April 19 2010 17:24 FarbrorAbavna wrote:
.....And like someone else said in this thread, you hardly ever see broodlords so maybe they arent as imba as alot of people want to think.
lol what?
love how this BS argument keeps popping up.
its like saying carriers suck balls vs terran cause you only see them in 1/10 of the games, if that.
Broodlords are late-game units, so you can only take into account games that go into late-game. if a game ends in 10 minutes you can't say well broodlords weren't used here because___. if you only look at games that go late, broodlords appear VERY often.
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On April 19 2010 17:21 Novembermike wrote:
Starcraft should not require you to get air to counter something. Generally each race has 1 air vs air specialist (protoss has zero in this case since phoenix doesn't do great damage against non-light) and requiring a specific unit to counter something leaves people incredibly vulnerable if they haven't invested heavily in the production facilities needed for the counter.
Air (vikings/mutas/corruptors) is pretty much the standard counter to colossi... besides more colossi in pvp.
Ceteris paribus, if broodlords are nerfed, there'd be no reason to go to hive at all. Zerg would be like orc in war3.
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Broodlord can be compared to the Collosus in terms of cost, health, damage w/e. The only significant problem is broodlings as a wall.
I think an easy fix would be to limit each broodlord to two broodlings. The broodlord's initial attack would be two broodlings and then only when one dies will the broodlord attack with another broodling. If we look at damage, (if the broodlings are not attacked and last full duration) one broodling will deal 40 dmg (4dmg*10times) in 8 seconds, which is a DPS of 5. The broodlord itself has a dps of 10, and now with the addition of 2 broodlings with 5 dps each, the broodlord will have a total dps of 20. A Collosus also has a dps of about 20, but it does splash so it is even stronger.
That's my brilliant idea. Good or Bad? Like?
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On April 19 2010 17:31 Rucky wrote:
Broodlord can be compared to the Collosus in terms of cost, health, damage w/e. The only significant problem is broodlings as a wall.
I think an easy fix would be to limit each broodlord to two broodlings. The broodlord's initial attack would be two broodlings and then only when one dies will the broodlord attack with another broodling. If we look at damage, (if the broodlings are not attacked and last full duration) one broodling will deal 40 dmg (4dmg*10times) in 8 seconds, which is a DPS of 5. The broodlord itself has a dps of 10, and now with the addition of 2 broodlings with 5 dps each, the broodlord will have a total dps of 20. A Collosus also has a dps of about 20, but it does splash so it is even stronger.
That's my brilliant idea. Good or Bad? Like?
You'd have to up their base dps then. The actual damage they do right now is fine, they are a final tier unit like carriers and BC but they don't shoot up.
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ccou: Ceteris paribus, if broodlords are nerfed, there'd be no reason to go to hive at all. Zerg would be like orc in war3.
exactly. maybe if you are winning by far you would get an ultra for humiliation purposes.
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I mainly get Broodlords to harass a few expansions. IMO they should just nerf Broodlord HP and Broodling attack speed so that they won't be practical to bring along every clash. Gives Zerg the reason to go Ultralisks for that late-game army.
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On April 19 2010 17:24 FarbrorAbavna wrote:These are changes that I propose be made if there turns out to be a general cause for concern regarding broodlords. But right now I'm asking for a few replays from OP to substantiate the proposed claim of imbalords(no I'm not saying you arent a recognised member or something such). Anywho: - Change clipping size(?) of the broodlings so that they don't completely wall of any units that want to go forward.
- Increase the movement speed of the broodlords just a bit(since units being fired upon can now move much easier through the mass of broodlings).
- Change the attack speed of broodlords and the spawn time of broodlings so that if a zerg player has four or less broodlords they can't create a "wall" of broodlings that hinders enemy units from going forward(although the broodlings bunching up will create small chokes but enemy units can still get past the broodlings with some micro). Attack speed and spawn time is of course balanced against the changed clipping size. Also need to change the damage done by broodlings so the dps of broodlords isnt lessened(imho they deal the right amount of dmg for a T3 unit).
- If a zerg player investes enough resources into five or more broodlords the attack speed of broodlords and clipping size of the broodlings will now have the effect of walling of the enemy units path so they either have to go around the broodlings or go back and wait for the proper units(or just having enough units) to deal with the broodlords(yeah that's right, you are getting punished for not getting the right units to deal with the broodlords and letting the zerg mass up a huge amount of resources and time to just spend on getting broodlords).
Quick facts about the broodlord(and how I came to the conclusion about four and five broodlords): * Cost of Corruptor in mineral/gas/build time: 150/100/40 * Cost of Broodlord morph in mineral/gas/build time: 150/150/34 * Total cost of 1 broodlord: 300/250/74 * Total cost of 4 broodlords: 1200/1000/74 (build time will vary from 74 seconds up to 74x4 seconds depending on if you get them at the same time or in succession, duh ) * Total cost of 5 broodlords: 1500/1250/74(again with the spawning at the same time or in succession, but probably in succession otherwise ground army will suffer too much). Having invested this much minerals and gas and time into getting broodlords(which is also quite late in the game) you should be getting an advantage just like you do when getting bc's of equal amount of resources or carriers. Which directly leads to another question: Do the broodlords really need to change from what they are now?Maybe some sort of tweak is needed and what I proposed just isnt it, but imho players need to flank more during battles becuase what you see now on streams are huge balls meeting up and just going at it until one ball is smaller than the other, or small skirmishes which end early or mid game with one player being declared winner. In other words we need time for players to get used to units and start being creative with their positioning. And like someone else said in this thread, you hardly ever see broodlords so maybe they arent as imba as alot of people want to think.
I agree with this... wait, no I don't!
If you make build time for BCs 73 seconds then I would agree (they take massive 110 seconds). Wait I still won't agree. If I don't have to build a starport for every BC to be made simultaneously then I would agree.
Either way Broodlords build time is way too short. If a Terran or Toss player has the same resources they can't spam them nearly as fast. You may say that's the strength of the zerg, I'd have to agree. However other zerg units are still restricted to build time proportions to their tier. 73 seconds build time for broodlords is just r-e-d-i-c-u-l-o-u-s. I'm a random player btw, unbiased.
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Anyways before I hit the bed I still think way more strategies need to be developed before the imba threads keep rolling out. I mean, I remember a guy talking about Hellions vs. broodlords. Sound funny? Kind of. Until you realize that a few helions with pre-igniter upgrade would lay waste to any number of broodlings present at the front line, letting your units move forward.
Viable strategy? Who knows, but the idea seems to have vanished and was never talked about again.
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On April 19 2010 17:27 HeyheyLBJ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 17:14 Ryuu314 wrote:On April 19 2010 17:08 HeyheyLBJ wrote:On April 19 2010 17:00 Ryuu314 wrote:
And for the record, BLs are not the most expensive unit in the game for everyone who's screaming that (Heyhey). Carriers cost 550/300 (more minerals) and the Mothership costs 400/400 (more gas). Additionally, you're completely retarded if you think coruptors are useless. They are very good AA units (in PvZ I can't speak for TvZ as I don't play that matchup) and also act as a very solid counter against Colossi. It's not uncommon for a Zerg to have some Corruptors lying around for earlier anti-Colossi measures or even just simple air superiority (they're pretty good against Phoenix and passable against Void Rays.) Yeah, while Carriers don't cost 550/300 even with interceptors they are arguably more expensive than Brood Lords if you count the intercetptor cost. Battlecruisers are too. My mistake. Still I stand by that they are BY FAR the hardest unit to get in a real game. 8 interceptors at 25 minerals each is 200. They cost 350/300 regularly. Hence 550/300 and often you'll have to rebuild interceptors constantly as hydralisk are very good at killing them. Every single late game PvZ I've played had BLs in it. I was previously rank1 gold and got promoted so now I'm top 30 platinum. It's not just in iunno, non-real games or low-ranked games where they appear. I don't auto-lose every time the Zerg gets them, but the amount of damage they do is just incredibly disproportionate. The difficulty of getting them is incredibly overstated. Corruptors are pretty common in PvZ as a very good counter to not only colossi but protoss air in general. Furthermore, getting a hive and later, a greater spire, is not uncommon either. Infestation pits are very common as infestors are still very useful with their fungal growth ability even after the neural parasite nerf. Morphing a Hive and Greater Spire is an additional 250/350 in resource cost. That's not that expensive at all. Yes, it takes time for those buildings to morph, but it's not like Zerg production is completely stopped or anything during the building upgrade time. You can't just make up that Carriers cost 50 extra gas, or that they don't start with 4 interceptors already, and claim they're more expensive. Sorry. And you don't get to say that just because some buildings can be useful, the cost can be neglected completely. Zerg players don't build all those buildings just for fun. They certainly don't build a Spire AND an Infestation Pit if they're not going for a Hive, and they don't go for a Hive unless they're going for Brood Lords.
Such a hypocrite. It's not like the spire or infestation pit unlocks any useful tech for the zerg right? like Corrupter's are terrible vs Collosi and mutas suck as a harass unit plus infestors fungal growth in terrible vs Terran Bio blobs, Oh an how can we forget how useless Neural parasite is vs thors? I mean those buildings and units are just so damn useless.
On April 19 2010 17:25 Johoseph wrote:Show nested quote +Ryuu314 wrote:
Generally, I counter BL+hydra with blink stalkers, sentries, and colossi. It works pretty well, but the only problem is that your colossi can't focus the hydras when they're trying to kill off all the broodlings. Also, you have to blink your stalkers pretty much right into the hydras in order to focus fire the broodlords. A good zerg will just move away with his broodlords while laughing at your stalkers getting raped by his hydras. Wait... You blink directly to his BLs........ and he moves them away? MOVES THEM AWAY!? It takes a BL about a month and a half to move the distance one blink can move. Seriously, no, I just can't believe anything you say anymore. Apparently these Zerg are busting out some incredible micro with BLs, moving them away from your much much faster units. BUT WAIT. He just moved them away... aka the broodling line is gone. New strategy in the making !???? Wowie.
Why do zergs in this thread seem to not have a brain? yes they are slow but by the time you kill 2 of them the others are out of range (unless you've never played the Beta and never tried this out, and are just randomly theorycrafting). plus while your stalkers are trying to kill the broodlords they are getting massacred by the zerg ground army that they just blinked directly into the middle of.
btw, after the stalkers are dead he doesnt need a broodling line, since there is no AA left. Stalkers work well if BL's are unprotected by ground army, not so much otherwise
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On April 19 2010 17:31 Rucky wrote:
Broodlord can be compared to the Collosus in terms of cost, health, damage w/e. The only significant problem is broodlings as a wall.
I think an easy fix would be to limit each broodlord to two broodlings. The broodlord's initial attack would be two broodlings and then only when one dies will the broodlord attack with another broodling. If we look at damage, (if the broodlings are not attacked and last full duration) one broodling will deal 40 dmg (4dmg*10times) in 8 seconds, which is a DPS of 5. The broodlord itself has a dps of 10, and now with the addition of 2 broodlings with 5 dps each, the broodlord will have a total dps of 20. A Collosus also has a dps of about 20, but it does splash so it is even stronger.
That's my brilliant idea. Good or Bad? Like?
not a bad idea but i personally would like to see changes that make the unit more in depth and help it to be used more strategically rather than just a-move... i like my idea better ^_^
i think most people are thinking too linear with most solutions...
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Chen wrote:
Why do zergs in this thread seem to not have a brain? yes they are slow but by the time you kill 2 of them the others are out of range (unless you've never played the Beta and never tried this out, and are just randomly theorycrafting). plus while your stalkers are trying to kill the broodlords they are getting massacred by the zerg ground army that they just blinked directly into the middle of.
btw, after the stalkers are dead he doesnt need a broodling line, since there is no AA left. Stalkers work well if BL's are unprotected by ground army, not so much otherwise
How about... Blink under them, and spam FFs to push his hydra line toward your own army, giving the stalkers free rein on the BLs?
See, we're expanding the strategy already!!! Thanks for making me come up with another facet of the strategy! Good work sir!
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On April 19 2010 17:39 R0YAL wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 17:31 Rucky wrote:
Broodlord can be compared to the Collosus in terms of cost, health, damage w/e. The only significant problem is broodlings as a wall.
I think an easy fix would be to limit each broodlord to two broodlings. The broodlord's initial attack would be two broodlings and then only when one dies will the broodlord attack with another broodling. If we look at damage, (if the broodlings are not attacked and last full duration) one broodling will deal 40 dmg (4dmg*10times) in 8 seconds, which is a DPS of 5. The broodlord itself has a dps of 10, and now with the addition of 2 broodlings with 5 dps each, the broodlord will have a total dps of 20. A Collosus also has a dps of about 20, but it does splash so it is even stronger.
That's my brilliant idea. Good or Bad? Like?
not a bad idea but i personally would like to see changes that make the unit more in depth and help it to be used more strategically rather than just a-move... i like my idea better ^_^
Okay, depth. I got it. Give Broodlords energy like you said and require 50 energy to shoot out 1 broodling so that broodlords will have to sit around before they can spawn more than the initial 2+1(starts with 50 energy)=3. HERE'S my addition to make it even crazier. Give broodlords the consume ability so that they can consume zerglings giving them 50 energy each so that they can shoot out more broodlings. With full 200 energy, you got 4 broodling shots and you can consume during the battle to effectively trade a zergling on the battlefield into a broodling which messes with the AI way more than a zergling.
I started out serious about this, but i just realized how funny it sounds LOL
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EPT
