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HeyheyLBJ
Sweden160 Posts
On April 19 2010 18:41 Inori wrote: Yeah, because pure Carrier or BC tech is totally viable and awesome. Oh wait... But... he just said that it's a terrible way to speculate... Are you able to read AND comprehend or do you just read for fun and then write whatever comes to mind? | ||
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Deleted User 61629
1664 Posts
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zomgzergrush
United States923 Posts
Teh reps? | ||
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HeyheyLBJ
Sweden160 Posts
On April 19 2010 18:46 Inori wrote: I suggest you actually read the whole thing with quotes and then answer your own question. I just did. Answer: Yes, I can read. Yes, I can comprehend. The one who said it was a terrible way to speculate was NOT the one who began to speculate in that manner, he just said it's a terrible way to do things... and then someone agreeing with him disagreed with him... That's not very clever at all. | ||
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R0YAL
United States1768 Posts
On April 19 2010 18:41 Inori wrote: Yeah, because pure Carrier or BC tech is totally viable and awesome. Oh wait... actually there is a difference because the tech required for T also allows you to get marauders, hellions, tanks, banshees, medivacs, vikings... and P can get zeals, sentries, stalkers, phoenixs, VR... its all about the transitioning... | ||
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valaki
Hungary2476 Posts
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ComradeDover
Bulgaria758 Posts
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R0YAL
United States1768 Posts
On April 19 2010 18:56 ComradeDover wrote: I just noticed this thread doesn't meet the new standards for threads in the SC2 section. Anyone want to start taking bets on how long till this thread gets closed? probably before they bring back 2v2's | ||
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Silent_Tao
Israel87 Posts
I know i'm not the the best player (Low Gold league) - but the replay really shows how 6-7 broodlords just annhilate a huge army of thors and MM, and completley turning the game. http://jump.fm/MJWRO (Press save file to your pc) | ||
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R0YAL
United States1768 Posts
On April 19 2010 19:06 Silent_Tao wrote: I got a replay I know i'm not the the best player (Low Gold league) - but the replay really shows how 6-7 broodlords just annhilate a huge army of thors and MM, and completley turning the game. http://jump.fm/MJWRO (Press save file to your pc) nice effort to help contribute but the rules are 8+ plat level reps... its the thought that counts tho n_n (if only...) | ||
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Ziel
Malaysia241 Posts
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Silent_Tao
Israel87 Posts
On April 19 2010 19:09 R0YAL wrote: nice effort to help contribute but the rules are 8+ plat level reps... its the thought that counts tho n_n (if only...) The rules are for the OP, I'm just trying to demonstrate the point better  - everyone is free to judge themself. | ||
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InFiNitY[pG]
Germany3474 Posts
The other game a guy went for mass speedlings with a couple roaches into pretty fast broodlords. And while again I had a huge economic lead and a big enough army I just couldn't kill his broodlords. Storm doesn't do much damage to them, stalkers with blink is pretty much suicide against the massive amount of zerglings underneath the broodlords. and void rays/phoenix just suck against other air units (or just putting like 10 hydras under your broodlords). Of course I didn't use the timing windows which I'm sure I had during those games to finish the z off, but I still feel that there is no efficient counter to air even with a big economic lead. compare what protoss had against air in sc1 to sc2 Archons had splash damage Storm was more powerful against mutas (easier to dodge now) Corsairs had splash AND a useful anti-ground ability. even scouts were strong against devourers and guardians possible solutions from the top of my head: -Give archons or phoenixes splash damage -add a damage bonus against air to storm or a certain unit (maybe the phoenix, can't think of any other) or give phoenix back the overload ability. -add an anti-air unit or ability (which would be very tricky, because a unit that can counter mutas effectively might suck against broodlords and vice-versa, it would have to be a goliath kind of unit with low damage to ground and high damage/range to air) | ||
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Adeeler
United Kingdom764 Posts
Terran have: Vikings Thors Marines Ravens Ghosts Battlecruisers (6 units) & Protoss have : Stalker Sentry High Templar Archon Pheonix Void Ray Carrier Mothership (8 units) They can all target air so what is the problem? Before you scream for nerfs try and use those units. Just cos your current ball owns zerg so hard except for broodlord you can't expect a nerf its just ridiculous at this point. Its like saying Zerg can never have a good long range unit even though toss & terran have insane long range units that do splash much earlier in the tech tree. The only concern I would have as a toss or terran is with Broodling interfering with the Attack AI and taking priority from attacking units, but with the splash in both races I don't see it being a problem anyway. Ways you can deal with broodlings for terran are hellions and seige tanks or enough of a bio ball to just mince the lings instantly which isn't that big of a ball at all. For Protoss its a bit more tricky but just having enough stuff is enough to deal with broodlings, colossi, mince them np's. I just don't think they are as OP as people say they are, if you let the zerg get to the point of getting broodlords you've pretty much given them a hell of a lot of time to get there and you probably should use your many options more effectively. | ||
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Motion
Germany183 Posts
And they are cool and good for sc2 as they are... On April 19 2010 19:18 Adeeler wrote: Terran have: Vikings Thors Marines Ravens Ghosts Battlecruisers (6 units) & Protoss have : Stalker Sentry High Templar Archon Pheonix Void Ray Carrier Mothership (8 units) They can all target air so what is the problem? Yes there is no problem! Close | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12032 Posts
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Nuclear
Bulgaria17 Posts
They are similar to the Guardians in SC1. - they require the same tech level, they cost a lot of money, move slow and attack ground only. There were several counters to Guardians in SC1, but they are removed/changed is SC2. I'll tell about ground units, because anti-air is responsibility to Devourers in SC1 and Corruptors in SC2. Protoss has one major counter to Guardians - psi storm. It needs 2 to kill a Guardian. Now in SC2 the psi storm is too weak - it has smaller radius and does less damage. In SC2, 4-5 storms are needed to kill a Brood Lord. The other counter vs Guardians are the Goons. But their range is smaller, they are big and their AI is stupid. Maybe they are as good against Guardians, as stalkers are good against Brood Lords. Also the Maelstorm could be helpfull (which doesn't exist in sc2). So, if the storm was so weak in SC1 and if there was no maelstorm, the protoss would have no good counter against Guardians. Terran has great counters vs Guardians in SC1. First is irradiate. It costs 75 energy and can easily kill a guardian (and damage nearby enemy units). But there is no irradiate in SC2. Seeker missiles maybe can do something, but they require more energy and do less damage. The second counter in SC1 is the Goliath - it has the same range as the Guardian. But in SC2 it is replaced by the big, expensive and slow Thor. So, without irradiate and Goliaths, terrans would have trouble against Guardians. Zerg - vs Guardians they have Hydras+Dark Swarm and Plague. Both Swarm and Plague don't exist in SC2. The problem is not that BLs are too strong (thei HP is MAYBE too high), but the (ground) counters against big air ranged slow units (Guardian in SC1 and Brood Lord in SC2) from SC1 are removed in SC2 (Goliaths, Maelstorm, Irradiate, Plague, Dark Swarm) or are too weak (psi storm, Thor). | ||
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Garrl
Scotland1977 Posts
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Chen
United States6344 Posts
On April 19 2010 19:18 Adeeler wrote: So nerf broodlords so that zerg can't engage a terran or protoss ball in any way? I don't agree Broodlords take forever to get to and cost a tonne considering what they do. Terran have: Vikings Thors Marines Ravens Ghosts Battlecruisers (6 units) & Protoss have : Stalker Sentry High Templar Archon Pheonix Void Ray Carrier Mothership (8 units) They can all target air so what is the problem? Before you scream for nerfs try and use those units. Just cos your current ball owns zerg so hard except for broodlord you can't expect a nerf its just ridiculous at this point. Its like saying Zerg can never have a good long range unit even though toss & terran have insane long range units that do splash much earlier in the tech tree. The only concern I would have as a toss or terran is with Broodling interfering with the Attack AI and taking priority from attacking units, but with the splash in both races I don't see it being a problem anyway. Ways you can deal with broodlings for terran are hellions and seige tanks or enough of a bio ball to just mince the lings instantly which isn't that big of a ball at all. For Protoss its a bit more tricky but just having enough stuff is enough to deal with broodlings, colossi, mince them np's. I just don't think they are as OP as people say they are, if you let the zerg get to the point of getting broodlords you've pretty much given them a hell of a lot of time to get there and you probably should use your many options more effectively. .... do you have beta/ever even SEEN a game of sc2? have you read a single page of this thread? or are you just spouting random bullshit? the fact that you even mention sentries, archons, carriers, motherships, and phoenix as possible counters to BL's is laughable, not to mention ravens(if z is retarded these work) and ghosts. stop doing your bullshit theorycraft if you have no idea what you are talking about. retards like you deserve to be banned. | ||
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Attica
United States277 Posts
On April 19 2010 18:30 Chen wrote: Carriers require: Pylon Gateway Cybernetics Core Stargates (yes plural, unlike zerg) Fleet beacon BC's: Barracks Factory Starports Tech lab Fusion core Armory for upgrades so they can do something. Plus the build/morph corrupter mechanic is an advantage. A) it takes significantly less time to build at the cost of 1 more click, omg thats soo fucking hard. B)you get a return on your investment much faster plus you automatically get the unit that covers the BL's weakness Zerg:6 buildings needed Toss:5 buildings, 6-7 in reality since 1 stargate carriers is just bullshit Terran: 6, 7-8 for the same reasons as above. Broodlords are not excessively expensive as compared to the other races top units, yet can't be compared in effectiveness. I like how you counted a Pylon in there as if zerg and terran don't get overlords and supply depots. Let's try this out so you can understand better. m = minerals g= gas t= time Zerg Spawning Pool - 200 m 65t Lair- 150m 100g 80t Spire -200m 200g 100t Infestation pit- 100m 100g 50t Hive- 200m 150g 100t Greater Spire- 100m 150g 100t Total Building Cost - 950 m 700g 495t Corruptor- 150m 100g 2food 40t Broodlord- 150m 150g 34t Total Unit Cost- 300m 250g 4 food 74t Protoss Gateway- 150m 65t Cyber core- 150m 50t Stargate- 150m 150g 60t Flight beacon- 300m 200g 60t Total Building Cost- 750m 350g 235t Carrier- 350m 250g 6 food 120t Terran Barracks- 150m 60t Tech Lab- 50m 25g 25t Factory- 150m 100g 60t Starport- 150m 100g 50t Fusion Core- 150m 150g 80t Total Building Cost- 650m 375g 275t Battle Cruiser- 400m 300g 6 food 110t It takes twice or almost twice as long to get to broodlords than it does for toss or terran to get to their tier 3 air. One might argue that you could lay your spire while upgrading to Hive but if you want to be realistic no zerg is going to have that much gas lying around to immediately spend unless it's much later in the game. I'd also like to add that zerg tech even slower than those numbers due to the style of the race (fast expo, mass units due to inability to block chokes, etc). | ||
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