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![[image loading]](http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_doCF-bXM978/SIFLvVHe8cI/AAAAAAAAAF4/jsJgqnikl7c/s400/VulcanMindMeld.png)
Ok, everyone and their mom knows about Imbalords. Nuff said about that. It seems that blizzard has not discovered a solution to this end game tyrant yet.
We need to work together and figure out a possible nerf that works well without ruining the role of the unit, which is a massive heavy assault DPS/Range Sieger. Which I'm sure blizzard is struggling with. Let's help them out.
Broodlord Unit Stats:
275 HP Bio/massive
Armor: 2+1
Range: 9
Sight: 12
Speed : Normal 1.4
Dmg 20+3
(broodlord carries 2 broodling on his back, which are released upon attack. One will constantly refill for each consequential attack.)
Broodling Unit Stats:
30 HP Bio
Melee
Dmg: 4+1
Armor: 0+1
Speed: very fast (not sure #)
Self destructs after 8 seconds.
Problems/Concerns:
- DPS
- Range
- Broodling production rate
- Reduce the duration of a broodling
- Broodling interfering with the Attack AI
- HP of broodlings
- Unit type of broodlings
- Broodlings interfering with the movement of units
- Allow broodlings to be fired upon as they fly in the air (like interceptors)
- (if you have another please post)
Possible Solutions:
- Lower the damage output of broodlings heavily.
- Reduce the range of the broodlord slightly.
- Reduce the amount of broodlings fired and replenished.
- Allow units to clip through broodlings. (possibly make them burrow but not be cloaked and can give and receive damage)
- Give all armor types to broodlings
- Lower HP to 15 or 20
- Change the way broodlings work. Instead of creating a unit, make the unit stick to the head of the target (like in alien lol) but it can still be killed and dies after X time.
- Remove the bonuses from upgrades they receive (or at least just the armor).
- Lower attack priority of broodlings
- (if you have another please post)
Please feel free to voice opinions about my suggestions as well as give ideas for some of your own concerns or suggestions. Keep the bullshit to a minimum. Don't mean to be elitist but, please refrain from posting if you are in the lower ranks and/or don't have any real in game experience troubleshooting this unit.
PS- If by chance you disagree with them being imbalanced. Please post your strategies etc on dealing with them for others to test out for themselves.
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It would be much better to lay out a supported case for why you think that they are imbalanced rather than trying to figure out an appropriate nerf. It only results in silly unworkable proposals (e.g., to give broodlings all armor types)
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On April 19 2010 15:32 nodule wrote:
It would be much better to lay out a supported case for why you think that they are imbalanced rather than trying to figure out an appropriate nerf. It only results in silly unworkable proposals (e.g., to give broodlings all armor types)
Do I really have to do this? The main problem lies within the fact that broodlings screw with the AI and movement of the ground AA units.
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Just take broodling out and take hp down by 25 that would do it just fine
Nooo!!! I just losse my marine = (
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I think broodlords should have a base attack, and you can augment it by purchasing broodlords, similar to SC1's reavers.
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They should fire at the rate of a sieged siege tank, or only fire 1 broodling per shot so that way a good sized army should be able to take out the broodling and focus back on the broodlord. The fact of the matter is you can't kill the broodlings faster than they are thrown at you once 3-4 broodlords are out.
Overall its just a stupid unit though. They make BC's and Carrier's look like complete pussies.
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If memory serves correctly I believe that the consensus among top players (artosis, louder, LZ, Day9) was that the best way to fix the unit was to simply make it so that broodlings did no damage, and that just messing with the auto target was enough.
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Good thread. Might want to include some replays of broodlords causing a zerg to win when they arguably shouldn't have.
I'd say make it do splash air->ground rather than spawn ground units... like, imagine it tossing out a ton of explosive broodling creatures.
Another idea could be to make broodlings cost a small amount of energy so that it regenerates energy fast enough to operate at about half its normal attack speed... but of course if it had a reasonable amount of energy it would be able to last the whole fight. This would allow ghosts and HT to be a viable soft counter (slow down their attack rate) in combination with other units.
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If people keep complaining, blizzard is going to nerf them. As it stand they only appear in maybe 1 out of 15 games. If you strip them of 100 hp, or remove broodlings, or make them even more expensive, they'll be used in 0 out of 15. And that would be a real shame.
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On April 19 2010 15:35 checo wrote:
Just take broodling out and take hp down by 25 that would do it just fine
Nooo!!! I just losse my marine = (
that is not a good solution imho. The broodlings shouldn't just be removed, there has to be a less drastic option.
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Aren't there some rules for topics like this ?
Anyway, they have weaknesses, mainly the thing that they can't attack top of the tree units like BC and Carriers, which is what they should be compared to. Also, don't forget that if you nerf them too much, there is simply no other go-to unit for zerg beyond mass of hydras/roaches spiced with some other stuff and people are getting sick of that already.
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Just slowing the attack speed of Broodlords would be enough to ease the massive broodling spam and general dmg output..
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On April 19 2010 15:38 CharlieMurphy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 15:35 checo wrote:
Just take broodling out and take hp down by 25 that would do it just fine
Nooo!!! I just losse my marine = ( that is not a good solution imho. The broodlings shouldn't just be removed, there has to be a less drastic option.
So the main problem with this guys is that they make AI look more stupid that it really is, unless you want them to redo the pathing of units for the whole game best solucion is just to take them out or like some others said make just 1 of 5 atacks send a broodling or make them cost minerals or stuff like that(this way it won't be that much brodlings and less AI fuck)
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Even with storm/archon/collosus the broodlings still trouble the ground units by walling them.
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Broodlings are essential for zerg in lategame. If Broodlords only dealt damage without any other effects nobody would make them because they wouldn't help at all. Zerg has way less viable/effective splash options than the other races, so they rely on tanking a ton damage for their hydralisks. Pure lings/roaches isn't enough for that, you don't get enough HP per supply to compensate for the insane splash that protoss has in lategame.
So that rules a few of your possible fixes out.
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From what I've seen so far, the Broodlords' range is what's really bothering players. Before you even get a glimpse of them, you got a thick wall of Broodlings choking up your ground army. Kind of reminds me of the BW Vulture/Tank mix, except both roles have been conveniently thrown into one unit.
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On April 19 2010 15:41 checo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 15:38 CharlieMurphy wrote:On April 19 2010 15:35 checo wrote:
Just take broodling out and take hp down by 25 that would do it just fine
Nooo!!! I just losse my marine = ( that is not a good solution imho. The broodlings shouldn't just be removed, there has to be a less drastic option. So the main problem with this guys is that they make AI look more stupid that it really is, unless you want them to redo the pathing of units for the whole game best solucion is just to take them out or like some others said make just 1 of 5 atacks send a broodling or make them cost minerals or stuff like that(this way it won't be that much brodlings and less AI fuck)
Even if broodlings had a cost like interceptors it wouldn't change the fact that they screw with the AI. Also, this is a dumb idea because they die after 8 seconds. What would they cost 1 mineral each or something?
On April 19 2010 15:41 zazen wrote:
Just slowing the attack speed of Broodlords would be enough to ease the massive broodling spam and general dmg output..
They will still drop 2 broodlings upon first attack and create that wall for 8~ seconds.
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@ Spinehealth Good point what about less rate of trowing broodlings, what are your thoughts??? Like lets say 1:2 atacks or even 1:3atacks
@Smokeeblade Nice suggestion but as colosi has 9 range les range for Broolords would mean they must be closser to the P ball and then get stormed or sniped by AA fire, but it would be nice to see how this will work
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Make them spawn banelings instead of broodlings. The banelings blow up right away, so no ai-screw-upage.
+ Show Spoiler +I don't think Broodlords need a nerf, they require a lot of time and resources to get, even motherships come out before them.
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i notice you totally neglect using cost/resources as a possible solution. if could be made more expensive or take longer to build
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United States4126 Posts
Change the way broodlings work. Instead of creating a unit, make the unit stick to the head of the target (like in alien lol) but it can still be killed and dies after X time.
That sounds like an interesting solution. The broodlings more or less become a DoT spell like fungal growth/plague and there wouldn't be some impenetrable meat shield to stop ground AA from attacking the broodlords.
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On April 19 2010 15:51 Simple wrote:
i notice you totally neglect using cost/resources as a possible solution. if could be made more expensive or take longer to build
This isnt a opion cause we want units that can be killed or countered effectly if you just make them more expensive that doesn't mean the units es better balance... is just means that would take longer for the user to get the imba unit
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To my mind, broodlords are big air as it was meant to be. Rather than nerfing broodlords, I'd like to see carriers and battlecruisers brought up to the same level of fearsomeness somehow.
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On April 19 2010 15:51 Kinky wrote:Show nested quote +Change the way broodlings work. Instead of creating a unit, make the unit stick to the head of the target (like in alien lol) but it can still be killed and dies after X time. That sounds like an interesting solution. The broodlings more or less become a DoT spell like fungal growth/plague and there wouldn't be some impenetrable meat shield to stop ground AA from attacking the broodlords.
which is essentially the same thing as making broodlings clip through all units.
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On April 19 2010 15:39 Zaphid wrote:
Aren't there some rules for topics like this ?
Anyway, they have weaknesses, mainly the thing that they can't attack top of the tree units like BC and Carriers, which is what they should be compared to. Also, don't forget that if you nerf them too much, there is simply no other go-to unit for zerg beyond mass of hydras/roaches spiced with some other stuff and people are getting sick of that already.
I disagree that they are weak to BC and Carriers. Corruptors are probably the most cost effective thing in the game vs BC and Carriers. Since you kinda have to get corruptors to get BLs, if you scout capital ships you just have to morph 5-6 BL to stop any ground counter and then keep your corruptors around.
The only things that I have seen work against BL are stalkers with blink to get underneath them and avoud the broodling wall supported by collosi to reduce the dps of the broodlings. Even this strat is probably not cost effective but idk.
No other go-to unit? I kinda miss seeing ultras. I realize they kinda suck, but from what I can tell thats mostly because if you are going to invest that many resources into teching you might as well get the imbalord. Ultra-hydra-ling sounds kinda nasty actually... if a little gas heavy. I might have to try it out vs a friend.
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if you take BL's out, then zerg will have absolutely no answer to late game other than massing roaches/hydras/mutas. Zerg is such a linear boring race, please dont remove the one tier 3 zerg unit that is ever made (anyone ever seen ultras? I havent). man, i really feel zerg is a fail race atm. if you nerf bl's, then please, give zerg SOMETHING...
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On April 19 2010 15:55 CharlieMurphy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 15:51 Kinky wrote:Change the way broodlings work. Instead of creating a unit, make the unit stick to the head of the target (like in alien lol) but it can still be killed and dies after X time. That sounds like an interesting solution. The broodlings more or less become a DoT spell like fungal growth/plague and there wouldn't be some impenetrable meat shield to stop ground AA from attacking the broodlords. which is essentially the same thing as making broodlings clip through all units.
I think there is a difference. A DoT doenst attack other units after its first target dies while a unit with clipping does. Against a terran bio ball i could see this becoming a pretty significant difference.
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I think something that may help to balance the issue would be to make the broodlings move much slower on the ground. This will prevent the broodling from pursuing attackers and stacking on a considerable amount of extra damage and will also get in the way of the main zerg army as it tries to pursue attackers. This way, if you are engaged by broodlords, you can retreat your army and the broodlings will actually be detrimental to the zerg player.
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I like the zero-collision idea.
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As many people have pointed out, the problem with the broodlords seem to be the broodlings that mess up the targetting ai and the amount of damage that they tank for the zerg army. While i do think something needs to be changed, the functionality of the broodlings must not be removed from the unit as it is what makes it unique and it fills the niche that zerg army is missing, being aoe damage.
My suggestion for a fix would be make the broodlings an autocast spell. This changes two things: Firstly, broodlings are no longer spawning indefinitely, you have to make a conscious decision of when to use them. Secondly it gives other players another way to counter them other than having to bum rush the broodlords with their entire army, with emp or feedback as the broodlords now operate on energy, and cannot reach full damage potential without the energy to cast broodlings.
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The real problem is that the broodlings mess up the AI so that the broodlords can attack large army with complete impunity. I've hard armies of 50+ hydralisks die to broodlords simply because clicking on the broodlords causes the hydras to not attack the broodlings and just die and doing an attack move causes them to attack the broodlings and die to the lords. This is 50+ hydras vs ~5 broodlords as well.
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I like those possible solutions
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On April 19 2010 15:37 Two_DoWn wrote:
If memory serves correctly I believe that the consensus among top players (artosis, louder, LZ, Day9) was that the best way to fix the unit was to simply make it so that broodlings did no damage, and that just messing with the auto target was enough.
By that logic, the carrier interceptors should be low priority and all units should automatically attack the carriers.
Mass stalkers -> blink
MM/thors/vikings -> no explanation needed here.
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Jesus Christ. Aren't there new forum rules that require you to post 8 Platin replays? DO SO NOW!
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For those who think it shouldn't be changed, I think a major area of concern should be how BL's destroy the utility of ultralisks. There isn't really a role for ultras now because if you get to the late game, the Broodlord is the obvious choice (from my experience). There should be at least some choice in the matter, with the best option being some way of balancing the two so that the choice becomes largely map dependent, like the dynamic between carriers and arbiters in SC:BW (or even the choice between ultras and guardians to a lesser extent, but many, excluding Day[9] might say that guardians also have limited utility in BW).
I don't want to redesign the scope of your thread Charlie, but I think this issue should be addressed alongside. To me, it's not so much that Broodlords are completely imbalanced vis-a-vis the other races, but that they are imbalanced compared to the ultralisk. If there was a better balance between them, I think zerg as a whole would be more interesting.
Now balancing the ultra and the broodlord together might involved a broodlord nerf (imo probably so) but I think we shouldn't just focus on the broodlord in isolation with the other races, but also in it's role in the zerg race as a whole.
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No nerf needed imo. Broodlords are pretty much the latest unit in the game and need to be morphed and don't atack air and cost a bunch.
As for countering them I'll say what tossplayers said to me when I lost to Carriers as terran: "Well....just don't let me get them in a larger number..."
The only thing a Boordlordnerf would be good for, is so that Zergplayers start to appreciate Ultralisks.
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Broodlings are definitely a bit excessive but holy christ how durable broodlords are is also just ridiculous. I've had battles where I have a massive fleet of vikings I made specifically to counter broodlords and it will still take what feels like 20 vikings 2 shots to take out individual broodlords... It's really hard to counter a flying siege-range unit when you can't kill them faster than they can kill your ground army.
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I agree, ultra sucks. but that's another thread
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On April 19 2010 16:19 CharlieMurphy wrote:
I agree, ultra sucks. but that's another thread
I dunno, I think the balance between the two third tier units is of vital importance, and shouldn't really be discussed separately, but it's your thread, I won't derail it anymore (: (:
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give broodlings a ranged attack. main problem about them is not damage i think, they fracking up formation of ground armies. also sieged tanks works for zerg when broodlords in game.
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to me, the broodlord shares the same flaw as the immortal in that it is an extreme hard counter (in design not necessarily stats) to things that both the zerg and protoss struggle with. i.e. for zerg, all late game balls-of-death such as the mmm's and sentry force-field immortal push -> cue broodlord; and for protoss, mass roaches -> cue immortal. imo, nerf both bls and immortals (and marauders but thats another topic) BUT give the race's something else to deal with the problems. just nerfing the unit will introduce a shortcoming in other areas.
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I think the point of the broodlord/broodling is to screw up AI while dealing some small damage over time.
I personally think that the best way to nerf the broodlord is to just lower damage output of broodlings. It already only deals 4(+1) damage per attack, but perhaps lower its attack speed from "fast" to "normal." Also, nerfing broodling hp to 15 or even 20 would greatly help. Currently, unupgraded zealots require 2 hits to kill a broodling. Making broodling hp 15 would lower it so that zealots can kill it in 1 hit. Terran has the worse time dealing with broodlings; marines take 5 hits and Marauder needs 3 hits. Although arguably it's less detrimental to Terran as it doesn't screw with their AI as much due to Terran not being melee.
@trueg0x: You can't compare BLs to Immortals in that they weren't designed as a "hard counter" unit to anything. Immortals clearly have the role as anti-armored but they absolutely die to mass T1 and are not as cost-effective against T1. Broodlords pretty much rape anything ground based. They are, in essence, Zerg's ultimate "screw you" unit. Terran and Protoss both have a "screw you" unit in the Battlecruiser, Carrier, and Mothership but the effectiveness of those three units simply just pale in comparison to what the BL can do.
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I think they need a very (VERY!) tight fix in order to be balanced. With balance I mean zerg internal, so Ultralisk (which are if you ask me, much stronger than you might except but noone really used them in a reasonable combo...) becomes an alternative path in tier 3 tech.
I would suggest the broodling count should be somewhat limited, either by output per shot (-1 for instance) or by a max ammount per broodlord (dunno 6-8 may be) at the same time (like carriers).
Furthermore, slightly decrease their health so it takes one shot less to kill them (someone mentioned the vikings in this thread), so like -10 HP or sth...
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I think we should change the way broodlords' attack works.
Broolords should not be able to shoot two shots at once for their first attack. That's an extra bonus that opens up no additional lines of strategy and the opponent will do nothing different because of it. When protoss gets stalkers to deal with the broodlords, broodlords should get the first attack due to their long range, but they should not be able to kill several stalkers before they even get to attack. This is the most sensible nerf and may or may not fix broodlords, but it will at least make them realistic.
One thing we can do is make broodlord shots cost 10 minerals each. That way you can mass up as many broodlords as you did before, and they would be just as effective in battles. The difference is that during a battle, you will have to pay for their shots, so you can't mass hydras or corrupters while you are fighting. T'hat way, protoss has a slightly easier time taking on broodlords since there are less hydras and corrupters to counter everything you're throwing at the broodlords, and secondly, there is a consequence for using broodlords in that if you lose the battle and all your broodlords die, you don't have another huge army ready immediately.
The last thing I could think of is to lower their HP to 250. No supporting evidence behind this, 250 just seems like a really nice number. 275 is a bit random.
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Do Thors do absolutely nothing against BLs or something? Honest question as I don't really know. But Thors outrange BLs, only thing I might see is that they don't do enough damage to them or something.
Although by the time BLs came out thors could be pretty heavily upgraded. Maybe if they balance Terran mech vs. light ground units it'll almost provide a small fix itself.
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On April 19 2010 15:38 onmach wrote:
If people keep complaining, blizzard is going to nerf them. As it stand they only appear in maybe 1 out of 15 games. If you strip them of 100 hp, or remove broodlings, or make them even more expensive, they'll be used in 0 out of 15. And that would be a real shame.
LOL? you must be watching different games or taking into account games where a zerg doesnt play. the only time broodlords arnt used is basically when it doesnt get to late-game. I have never seen a competent zerg player in late-game not get or at least try to get broodlords.
On April 19 2010 16:12 Na_Dann_Ma_GoGo wrote:
Jesus Christ. Aren't there new forum rules that require you to post 8 Platin replays? DO SO NOW!
I think this thread gets a pass in that regard since its common knowledge that broodlords are extremely powerful and it only takes a few to drastically change the flow of a game.
On April 19 2010 16:35 Johoseph wrote:
Do Thors do absolutely nothing against BLs or something? Honest question as I don't really know. But Thors outrange BLs, only thing I might see is that they don't do enough damage to them or something.
Thors DPS vs broodlords sucks cause lords arn't light and splash doesnt work too well since they are so huge. plus thors will usually waste shots on the broodlings, which they can't kill faster than they spawned. pretty sure 1 broodlord rapes 1 thor handily
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The two extra broodlings do seem excessive. It seems like they should either generate broodlings over time and then have them to throw down in a burst, or else hit the enemy to make broodlings at a steady rate, but not both.
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Probably biased since i am a zerg player but I am glad they arn't as useless as Gaurdians and people actually tech to them.
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No doubt the Brood Lord is an incredibly game-shifting unit that can dominate battles if the opponent isn't prepared. For some evidence of this, check out qxc vs Sheth from the most recent gosucoaching tournament, Diggity recently uploaded a commentary of this game to youtube. During the live broadcast, I think it was LzGamer and Machine(???) casting, the two were joking that the game was over the moment that the greater spire started morphing. That's the strength of the Brood Lord, a small number of them will disrupt and demolish a 200/200 army that isn't specifically prepared to counter a Zerg ground force supplemented by Brood Lords.
That being said, I think it's fair that an expensive late-tier unit has huge DPS and high HP. I don't think a massive nerf or re-working of the Brood Lord is especially necessary, but there is one huge problem I see with them and that is their base armor.
Zerg players can just morph 4-6 Brood Lords and transform a near-maxed army from formidable to unstoppable. The most basic "grunt" units that comprise the majority of the other player's near-maxed army don't do nearly enough damage to feasibly pick off Brood Lords (Hydras, Marines, Stalkers even with blink micro). Other late-game army staples, such as HSM or Psi Storm, hardly phase Brood Lords because of their high HP.
So, the only way to win against Brood Lords is to get the units that specifically counter Brood Lords, either Vikings, Void Rays, or a huge number of Stalkers. Well that's simple enough, right? Not in a typical late-game scenario when Brood Lords become part of a Zerg army. When moving into the late-game, resources begin to dwindle and much of the focus of the players turns towards harassing new expos and taking map control. There really is no vespene gas left to expend on Vikings after getting Siege Tanks/Ravens for Terran, and likewise the tech switch to Starport for Void Rays or even just getting 20+ Stalkers is too gas-intensive for a Protoss player with Colossi and High Templar.
So, the answer I see being most effective is lowering Brood Lord base armor from 2 -> 1, leaving the HP, range, and damage unchanged. Maybe change the broodling mechanic so they don't shoot two at once. This would allow lower-tier units the ability to kill Brood Lords before their own army gets decimated.
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Instead of nerfing only good unit in zerg arsenal, nerf toss/terr casters and their ultimates aka Collossi/Thors, thanks ~~'
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You forgot 40 seconds build time +33 morph time total of 73 seconds build time.
Compare that with BC which takes 110 seconds to build and can only produce one BC per starport. Same with Carriers but longer and chronoboost consuming. Carriers still take longer even it's chronoboosted from start to finish.
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On April 19 2010 16:36 Chen wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 16:12 Na_Dann_Ma_GoGo wrote:
Jesus Christ. Aren't there new forum rules that require you to post 8 Platin replays? DO SO NOW! I think this thread gets a pass in that regard since its common knowledge that broodlords are extremely powerful and it only takes a few to drastically change the flow of a game.
Oh yeah? So where's the problem showing that with some Platinum replays hm? Because I've never had a game and have never seen one where Broodlords are the game breaking factor. Maybe noobs get totally screwed by the AI but on higher level I don't see any problems facing Broodlords.
So just follow the god damn rules and post at least some replays.
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Please provide 8 Platinum replays showing that Broodlords are imba. Personally, I haven't seen one. I don't understand why this thread is not closed and OP is not banned.
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On April 19 2010 16:36 Chen wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 16:12 Na_Dann_Ma_GoGo wrote:
Jesus Christ. Aren't there new forum rules that require you to post 8 Platin replays? DO SO NOW! I think this thread gets a pass in that regard since its common knowledge that broodlords are extremely powerful and it only takes a few to drastically change the flow of a game. Also, this thread was started by someone with a pretty nice post count and I'm pretty sure we can rest assured that it's not going to be a trash thread.
On April 19 2010 16:36 Chen wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 16:35 Johoseph wrote:
Do Thors do absolutely nothing against BLs or something? Honest question as I don't really know. But Thors outrange BLs, only thing I might see is that they don't do enough damage to them or something. Thors DPS vs broodlords sucks cause lords arn't light and splash doesnt work too well since they are so huge. plus thors will usually waste shots on the broodlings, which they can't kill faster than they spawned. pretty sure 1 broodlord rapes 1 thor handily
Also want to add that BL comes with 2 armor default so Thors only do (8-2)*4 = 24 damage per shot. BLs do (20-1)= 19 damage per shot, while the Broodling will do (4-1)= 3 damage per hit. I'm not sure how many times a broodling will hit during it's lifespan but all it needs to do is to hit at least twice per life span and the BL will out-damage a Thor. That said, a straight up 1v1 Thor v. BL battle will be in the favor of the Thor due to the Thor's massive 400 hp but the Thor is still not ideal counter for them.
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@Ryuu314: yea i see what you mean, i agree with you 100%. the fact of the matter is, that atm zerg have nothing other than massing tier 1 -> 2 units. there is no 'punch unit' to work towards such as collosis, immortals, thors, etc. making zerg feel kind of directionless. as a result i think that blizzard thought that it could fill these holes by making an answer to all of zergs problems in one unit, like you said, a screw you unit. some evidence to this is just how friggen hard it is to get BL's. you need to tech to tier 3, then upgrade spire, then build corrupter then upgrade corrupter. jesus christ, after all that you deserve a screw you unit! really that is all that zerg has late game. zerg plays out as follows: expand -> mass tier 1 -> mass tier 1.5 -> mass tier 2 -> repeat (try to tech)- > repeat (try to tech) - > repeat (try to tech) -> FINALLY get BL's. all the other races have inbetween units that have a place and a function during the tech to tier 3. i guess my point is that zerg have had all of their late game functions rolled into one unit. but hey, maybe thats how bliz want them to be...
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I by the way fail to see how Broodlords can deal much damage in lower numbers. Unupgraded it requires 8 shots to take down a single stalker and the amount of damage dealt by the broodlings isn't high either unless you upgrade them. But then again I fail to see an imbalance when people complain about 5 3-3 Broodlords + their 3-3 Broodling beat up 10 1-1-1 Stalker or even better 10 unmicroed Stalker.
Hopefully the OPs creating threads now following the rules will get banned :0
Edit: Though maybe not this one, as he got indeed a lot posts and activity I suppose. Yet this thread should be closed unless replays are posted.
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On April 19 2010 16:45 trueg0x wrote:
@Ryuu314: yea i see what you mean, i agree with you 100%. the fact of the matter is, that atm zerg have nothing other than massing tier 1 -> 2 units. there is no 'punch unit' to work towards such as collosis, immortals, thors, etc. making zerg feel kind of directionless. as a result i think that blizzard thought that it could fill these holes by making an answer to all of zergs problems in one unit, like you said, a screw you unit. some evidence to this is just how friggen hard it is to get BL's. you need to tech to tier 3, then upgrade spire, then build corrupter then upgrade corrupter. jesus christ, after all that you deserve a screw you unit! really that is all that zerg has late game. zerg plays out as follows: expand -> mass tier 1 -> mass tier 1.5 -> mass tier 2 -> repeat (try to tech)- > repeat (try to tech) - > repeat (try to tech) -> FINALLY get BL's. all the other races have inbetween units that have a place and a function during the tech to tier 3. i guess my point is that zerg have had all of their late game functions rolled into one unit. but hey, maybe thats how bliz want them to be...
While I agree with what you said, the fact of the matter is that BLs are just simply too effective. Maybe Zerg's other T1/2 units need buffing, I don't know and that's not the point of this thread. But even after all the teching, it's really hard to argue that BLs don't essentially end up paying for themselves. Especially in PvZ. Protoss has a very hard time dealing with Zerg air already. Adding BLs to a well-mixed Zerg army is just brutal. The only reliable Protoss counter to BL are blink stalkers, but they will get raped by pretty much every other ground unit in the Zerg's arsenal and a good Zerg will never let his BLs get caught out in the open without ground support (usually hydras).
@Na_dann_ma_gogo: The power of the BL relies not only in their high dps, but also their ability to screw AI. BLs basically make all melee units useless as the auto-surround on the broodlings will keep them from moving forward to attack the Zerg's ground army. Also, I'm sure many Terran players have experienced their Tanks killing their own army when a BL fires a broodling and the tank auto-aquires the broodlings as a target. Boom, x number of marines dead, not from the BL, but from friendly fire due to Tanks auto-aquiring the broodling as a target.
Also I'm pretty sure a BL can kill a stalker in less than 8 hits. You can't neglect the broodling's damage output. 4 damage done at a "fast" speed is pretty good damage.
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I'm still confused by this thread. All we're talking about is how ground units get screwed over by this high high high tier 3 air to GROUND unit. I mean, why aren't we talking about harassing them with your own air units? I would think things like vikings and voidrays(maybe?) would pose a threat to them. Hell even if you have to sacrifice a few of your air units, it would almost be worth it, BLs are by no means easy to get.
Oh and I guess it's ok for a tier 1.5 protoss unit to completely screw your ground unit formations and pathing, but something that costs like 15x as much as that unit....... BLASPHEMY
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I love Broodlords :D
The weakness I think they have is their speed. Makes my army go very slowly. Maybe I should use them differently.
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They're the hardest unit to get in the game by far so it's only fair that they are overpowered. First, it requires teching to Hive ONLY for them, then to upgrade your spire which takes about a year or two, then you have to produce a completely useless unit just to morph them into imbalords. All this with a race that will get run over whenever they take a break in unit production. Imbalords are also the most expensive unit in the game, and has the longest build time.
Whenever they're made easier to get (like when they're morphed from mutas) I'd propose something like giving them an energy bar and make each broodling shot cost a small amount of energy. As it is now, they are the sole reason the Hive is even a building, so it would be kinda hilarious if they were nerfed.
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sorry to be posting so much, but ALSO the thor friggen demolishes ALL ZERG. my god ive seen plat replays where 4-5 thors just annihilate all zerg has to offer (roaches, hydras, mutas, infestors and then there are some hellions to mop up and lings). my point: BL's SHOULD BE the counter to thors. thors should not be able to stand toe to toe with them (and they dont which is good). if thors destroyed BL's then the thor + hellions >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>. zerg.
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On April 19 2010 16:12 Na_Dann_Ma_GoGo wrote:
Jesus Christ. Aren't there new forum rules that require you to post 8 Platin replays? DO SO NOW!
charlie's a resident poster with 20k posts. just something to consider before telling people what to do ^_^ besides this is a WIDELY accepted imbalance
i'm really digging this zero collision idea. it should either be the only nerf, or should come paired with an HP/armor nerf. not sure if the armor/hp thing would be overkill or not though..
Also, this thread was started by someone with a pretty nice post count and I'm pretty sure we can rest assured that it's not going to be a trash thread.
lol this is only funny because its charlie ^___^
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On April 19 2010 16:43 goszar wrote:
Please provide 8 Platinum replays showing that Broodlords are imba. Personally, I haven't seen one. I don't understand why this thread is not closed and OP is not banned.
The rule was made so that we don't get a large influx of posts regarding unsupported imbalance when most of those people didn't bother finding a solution themselves. This topic does not infringe upon that. Team Liquid staff has a reputation of upholding rules for their purpose rather than for the rules themselves in order to maintain a high quality community.
The broodlord balance issue is something that the entire community is well aware about, and does not require 8 replays to make people aware of its existence. This thread is a discussion regarding how to fix broodlords, and not to make people aware of the issue.
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I'm thinking of adding a bit to liquipedia, what do you guys think? Isn't the Brood lord the only zerg unit (besides maybe unupgraded overlords) that can't run away from an HSM? I think HSM's are a reasonable counter for Terran for BL's. There was a tournament or competitive match where a massive "I WIN" brood lord wave was stopped dead in its tracks by 3 HSM's if I recall. Can't remember which game it was but it was Metalopolis.
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On April 19 2010 16:45 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 16:36 Chen wrote:On April 19 2010 16:12 Na_Dann_Ma_GoGo wrote:
Jesus Christ. Aren't there new forum rules that require you to post 8 Platin replays? DO SO NOW! I think this thread gets a pass in that regard since its common knowledge that broodlords are extremely powerful and it only takes a few to drastically change the flow of a game. Also, this thread was started by someone with a pretty nice post count and I'm pretty sure we can rest assured that it's not going to be a trash thread. Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 16:36 Chen wrote:On April 19 2010 16:35 Johoseph wrote:
Do Thors do absolutely nothing against BLs or something? Honest question as I don't really know. But Thors outrange BLs, only thing I might see is that they don't do enough damage to them or something. Thors DPS vs broodlords sucks cause lords arn't light and splash doesnt work too well since they are so huge. plus thors will usually waste shots on the broodlings, which they can't kill faster than they spawned. pretty sure 1 broodlord rapes 1 thor handily Also want to add that BL comes with 2 armor default so Thors only do (8-2)*4 = 24 damage per shot. BLs do (20-1)= 19 damage per shot, while the Broodling will do (4-1)= 3 damage per hit. I'm not sure how many times a broodling will hit during it's lifespan but all it needs to do is to hit at least twice per life span and the BL will out-damage a Thor. That said, a straight up 1v1 Thor v. BL battle will be in the favor of the Thor due to the Thor's massive 400 hp but the Thor is still not ideal counter for them.
someone did the math and broodlings attack 10 times before they time out. 1v1 broodlord destroys thor cause you have like 5-10 broodlings constantly chipping away at it
On April 19 2010 16:45 trueg0x wrote:
@Ryuu314: yea i see what you mean, i agree with you 100%. the fact of the matter is, that atm zerg have nothing other than massing tier 1 -> 2 units. there is no 'punch unit' to work towards such as collosis, immortals, thors, etc. making zerg feel kind of directionless. as a result i think that blizzard thought that it could fill these holes by making an answer to all of zergs problems in one unit, like you said, a screw you unit. some evidence to this is just how friggen hard it is to get BL's. you need to tech to tier 3, then upgrade spire, then build corrupter then upgrade corrupter. jesus christ, after all that you deserve a screw you unit! really that is all that zerg has late game. zerg plays out as follows: expand -> mass tier 1 -> mass tier 1.5 -> mass tier 2 -> repeat (try to tech)- > repeat (try to tech) - > repeat (try to tech) -> FINALLY get BL's. all the other races have inbetween units that have a place and a function during the tech to tier 3. i guess my point is that zerg have had all of their late game functions rolled into one unit. but hey, maybe thats how bliz want them to be...
Why do people keep citing tech requirements for keeping them OP? Carriers/BC/Mothership arn't nearly as strong and require arguably MORE tech investment since the tech tree that they come from isnt usually touched in normal play (BC less so than Toss heavy air) they should be strong, but 5 of them should not auto-win you a game
Zerg will very often already have a spire (muta harass/corrupter's vs Colossi), Infestation pit for infestors vs terran, and eventually hive for ups. It's not like you need more production facilities or a drastic input of resources to get to BL's.
Plus you cite the need to morph stuff, well guess what the combined time for making a corrupter then a broodlord is not more than it takes to make a carrier/BC. that is an ADVANTAGE, since you get an intermediate unit that makes your investment return yields much faster and gives you more flexibility while the other races just sink their money and wait for the unit to pop out.
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Probably because getting an air army requires a significant investment from the other two races in terms of buildings alone and pretty much no other unit is uncounterable from two different unit producing buildings. Battlecruisers do a lot, but thors and marines can do a lot against them, and protoss have void rays and stalkers. Carriers die to the same set of units. Ultras lose to air and thors or immortals, banshees die to marines, thors, vikings, stalkers, void rays, phoenix and sentries.
Pretty much every unit in this game has multiple soft counters that you can use except for Broodlords, and pretty much the only reason they do this is because 3-5 can produce enough broodlings to stop up an entire army. It isn't like their DPS is overpowered or they are legitimately too hard to kill from a health/armor standpoint it's just that they and their broodlings act like a 2 unit combo all in one.
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On April 19 2010 16:50 Johoseph wrote:
I'm still confused by this thread. All we're talking about is how ground units get screwed over by this high high high tier 3 air to GROUND unit. I mean, why aren't we talking about harassing them with your own air units? I would think things like vikings and voidrays(maybe?) would pose a threat to them. Hell even if you have to sacrifice a few of your air units, it would almost be worth it, BLs are by no means easy to get.
Oh and I guess it's ok for a tier 1.5 protoss unit to completely screw your ground unit formations and pathing, but something that costs like 15x as much as that unit....... BLASPHEMY
Force field doesn't do damage over time and it cost energy. At most, a sentry will cast 4 force fields. A BL can shoot forever and ever and broodlings do good damage.
And for the record, BLs are not the most expensive unit in the game for everyone who's screaming that (Heyhey). Carriers cost 550/300 (more minerals) and the Mothership costs 400/400 (more gas). Additionally, you're completely retarded if you think coruptors are useless. They are very good AA units (in PvZ I can't speak for TvZ as I don't play that matchup) and also act as a very solid counter against Colossi. It's not uncommon for a Zerg to have some Corruptors lying around for earlier anti-Colossi measures or even just simple air superiority (they're pretty good against Phoenix and passable against Void Rays.)
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Ryuu314 i agree with you man. nerf BL's, give something back in return. I also agree with Johoseph though. like he said - collosis = antiground unit that just annihilates all ground. all bio, all mech, all everything + huge mobility and crazy range. no one is complaining that the protoss anti ground destroys ground. i mean come on, we have all seen those replays with forcefield wielding tosses using collosis to simply mop up everything, leaving you going "huh, what?"... the thing about collosis is that many things can kill it (ground and air) where as with BL's, nothing seems to kill them...
I would say, lower BL armour, make them shoot out one bloodling at a time, make broodlings have 0 clipping.
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I think the armor nerf would do the trick, tbh. They'll still be a pain to kill while sitting over a zerg army, and they won't be take years to destroy. OFC changing how broodlings affect ground unit pathing would be a nice nerf aswell, i'm not sure how great of a change that would be if say.. zealots stopped to kill them at the front of the line: they'd still block the stalkers/sentries behind them.
Could always give them energy and make them vulnerable to EMP/feedback. =x
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On April 19 2010 16:57 Chen wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 16:45 Ryuu314 wrote:On April 19 2010 16:36 Chen wrote:On April 19 2010 16:12 Na_Dann_Ma_GoGo wrote:
Jesus Christ. Aren't there new forum rules that require you to post 8 Platin replays? DO SO NOW! I think this thread gets a pass in that regard since its common knowledge that broodlords are extremely powerful and it only takes a few to drastically change the flow of a game. Also, this thread was started by someone with a pretty nice post count and I'm pretty sure we can rest assured that it's not going to be a trash thread. On April 19 2010 16:36 Chen wrote:On April 19 2010 16:35 Johoseph wrote:
Do Thors do absolutely nothing against BLs or something? Honest question as I don't really know. But Thors outrange BLs, only thing I might see is that they don't do enough damage to them or something. Thors DPS vs broodlords sucks cause lords arn't light and splash doesnt work too well since they are so huge. plus thors will usually waste shots on the broodlings, which they can't kill faster than they spawned. pretty sure 1 broodlord rapes 1 thor handily Also want to add that BL comes with 2 armor default so Thors only do (8-2)*4 = 24 damage per shot. BLs do (20-1)= 19 damage per shot, while the Broodling will do (4-1)= 3 damage per hit. I'm not sure how many times a broodling will hit during it's lifespan but all it needs to do is to hit at least twice per life span and the BL will out-damage a Thor. That said, a straight up 1v1 Thor v. BL battle will be in the favor of the Thor due to the Thor's massive 400 hp but the Thor is still not ideal counter for them. someone did the math and broodlings attack 10 times before they time out. 1v1 broodlord destroys thor cause you have like 5-10 broodlings constantly chipping away at it
Holy shit...that's a lot of attacks. I never expected it to be that high, lol. So essentially the BL dps per hit is 20+(4*10) = 60. O_O That out-damages an Immortal with bonus added...
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On April 19 2010 17:00 Ryuu314 wrote:
And for the record, BLs are not the most expensive unit in the game for everyone who's screaming that (Heyhey). Carriers cost 550/300 (more minerals) and the Mothership costs 400/400 (more gas). Additionally, you're completely retarded if you think coruptors are useless. They are very good AA units (in PvZ I can't speak for TvZ as I don't play that matchup) and also act as a very solid counter against Colossi. It's not uncommon for a Zerg to have some Corruptors lying around for earlier anti-Colossi measures or even just simple air superiority (they're pretty good against Phoenix and passable against Void Rays.)
Yeah, while Carriers don't cost 550/300 even with interceptors they are arguably more expensive than Brood Lords if you count the intercetptor cost. Battlecruisers are too.
My mistake.
Still I stand by that they are BY FAR the hardest unit to get in a real game.
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First off let me say that I don’t have a beta key (I think Blizzard hates me) so I could be way off on my observations but I have been keeping up with SC2 and watching a lot of Youtube videos. So with that said.
The consensus seems to be the main issue is the broodlings is how it screws up the AI. Wasn’t one of the main bitches about SC2 was the AI was too good? It was TOO easy to attack, surround units and that every player will now be able to focus on macro? Aren’t Broodlords big and slow? Can’t you just focus fire them and ignore the broodlings? Can’t you simply run away ground units that can’t attack air? Can’t you simply mass Air to Air units and take them out? It seems with the proper units and a little bit of micro they should be fairly easy to counter? Now we have a unit that forces the other player to micro and suddenly it’s called “imbalords”…
Broodlords reminds me of Chimaeras in WC3. Yes they are powerful but they are also easy to counter if you see them coming.
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I don't know if anyone has stated something similar to this, but maybe they could make the broodling similar to the old mechanic as the queen in SC 1, except the rather than the broodlings causing instant death, the broodling ONLY spawn if the unit dies either from the broodlord, or is killed for a given time after being attacked by the broodlord. This was, the rate of spawning is lower, and a possible counter is to avoid producing low HP units, such as lings or rines. And if you really want the spawn mechanic for buildings, rather than have broodlings pop everytime it hits the building, the building should instead spawn 8 or so broodlings upon death, very much as when a hatchery dies.
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I would like collision to be removed from the broodlings. The constant non-cloacked burrow sounds like an easy code fix. As a Terran player this is what makes it impossible to counter even very small numbers of broodlords with any ground unit. I don't like having 30 marines and 4 thors and cannot beat 4 broodlords. If I could charge into them I feel this would change.
Also the broodlings should be an upgrade, and they just shoot a normal projectile until researched. They would not have the double damage on first attack until this was researched. Or just put the double damage on first attack as a researchable upgrade.
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On April 19 2010 17:08 HeyheyLBJ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 17:00 Ryuu314 wrote:
And for the record, BLs are not the most expensive unit in the game for everyone who's screaming that (Heyhey). Carriers cost 550/300 (more minerals) and the Mothership costs 400/400 (more gas). Additionally, you're completely retarded if you think coruptors are useless. They are very good AA units (in PvZ I can't speak for TvZ as I don't play that matchup) and also act as a very solid counter against Colossi. It's not uncommon for a Zerg to have some Corruptors lying around for earlier anti-Colossi measures or even just simple air superiority (they're pretty good against Phoenix and passable against Void Rays.) Yeah, while Carriers don't cost 550/300 even with interceptors they are arguably more expensive than Brood Lords if you count the intercetptor cost. Battlecruisers are too. My mistake. Still I stand by that they are BY FAR the hardest unit to get in a real game.
8 interceptors at 25 minerals each is 200. They cost 350/300 regularly. Hence 550/300 and often you'll have to rebuild interceptors constantly as hydralisk are very good at killing them.
Every single late game PvZ I've played had BLs in it. I was previously rank1 gold and got promoted so now I'm top 30 platinum. It's not just in iunno, non-real games or low-ranked games where they appear. I don't auto-lose every time the Zerg gets them, but the amount of damage they do is just incredibly disproportionate. The difficulty of getting them is incredibly overstated. Corruptors are pretty common in PvZ as a very good counter to not only colossi but protoss air in general. Furthermore, getting a hive and later, a greater spire, is not uncommon either. Infestation pits are very common as infestors are still very useful with their fungal growth ability even after the neural parasite nerf. Morphing a Hive and Greater Spire is an additional 250/350 in resource cost. That's not that expensive at all. Yes, it takes time for those buildings to morph, but it's not like Zerg production is completely stopped or anything during the building upgrade time.
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Has anyone tried stalkers + 2-3 colossi against broodlords? Use colossi to constantly deplete broodlings and stalkers to kill. If every broodling can only get off 1-2 attacks at most, the dps of broodlords wouldn't be so high. Broodlords cannot attack colossi because of distance so you wouldn't have to worry about colossi dying. The perfect complement to broodlords is hydras since hydras counter anything Protoss can throw at broodlords, and colossi counter hydras.
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On April 19 2010 17:09 lowlypawn wrote:
First off let me say that I don’t have a beta key (I think Blizzard hates me) so I could be way off on my observations but I have been keeping up with SC2 and watching a lot of Youtube videos. So with that said.
The consensus seems to be the main issue is the broodlings is how it screws up the AI. Wasn’t one of the main bitches about SC2 was the AI was too good? It was TOO easy to attack, surround units and that every player will now be able to focus on macro? Aren’t Broodlords big and slow? Can’t you just focus fire them and ignore the broodlings? Can’t you simply run away ground units that can’t attack air? Can’t you simply mass Air to Air units and take them out? It seems with the proper units and a little bit of micro they should be fairly easy to counter? Now we have a unit that forces the other player to micro and suddenly it’s called “imbalords”…
Broodlords reminds me of Chimaeras in WC3. Yes they are powerful but they are also easy to counter if you see them coming.
Shhh. Stop talking about air units. Lets just keep talking about how ground units die to them, it keeps the "nerf BLs" argument stronger!
Furthermore, getting a hive and later, a greater spire, is not uncommon either.
What? The ONLY reason people get those are for BLs... You act like that's a natural tech for Zerg players. It's not like we just make those buildings for shits and giggles, then say "Weellllll, since I'm here I might as well make BLs". Those are pretty much exclusively for BLs.
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On April 19 2010 17:09 lowlypawn wrote:
First off let me say that I don’t have a beta key (I think Blizzard hates me) so I could be way off on my observations but I have been keeping up with SC2 and watching a lot of Youtube videos. So with that said.
The consensus seems to be the main issue is the broodlings is how it screws up the AI. Wasn’t one of the main bitches about SC2 was the AI was too good? It was TOO easy to attack, surround units and that every player will now be able to focus on macro? Aren’t Broodlords big and slow? Can’t you just focus fire them and ignore the broodlings? Can’t you simply run away ground units that can’t attack air? Can’t you simply mass Air to Air units and take them out? It seems with the proper units and a little bit of micro they should be fairly easy to counter? Now we have a unit that forces the other player to micro and suddenly it’s called “imbalords”…
Broodlords reminds me of Chimaeras in WC3. Yes they are powerful but they are also easy to counter if you see them coming.
The problem is that the ground based AA just isn't going to reach them. Stalkers can blink, which works, but marines or hydras just aren't going to reach them within a reasonable time frame (possibly never). If 5 broodlords catch 50 marines in a fairly narrow region, like the choke to a base, it is entirely possible for the broodlords to never get hit because the broodlings will block movement for the entire front line and will be replenished as fast as they die. Basically you can click on the broodlord and never get to it or attack the broodlings and never get past them. I've had them stop two players who were both going tier 1 units that shoot up exclusively.
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On April 19 2010 17:15 Chairman Ray wrote:
Has anyone tried stalkers + 2-3 colossi against broodlords? Use colossi to constantly deplete broodlings and stalkers to kill. If every broodling can only get off 1-2 attacks at most, the dps of broodlords wouldn't be so high. Broodlords cannot attack colossi because of distance so you wouldn't have to worry about colossi dying. The perfect complement to broodlords is hydras since hydras counter anything Protoss can throw at broodlords, and colossi counter hydras.
Generally, I counter BL+hydra with blink stalkers, sentries, and colossi. It works pretty well, but the only problem is that your colossi can't focus the hydras when they're trying to kill off all the broodlings. Also, you have to blink your stalkers pretty much right into the hydras in order to focus fire the broodlords. A good zerg will just move away with his broodlords while laughing at your stalkers getting raped by his hydras.
I can't speak for Terran, but Protoss AA is simply not that effective against BLs. Phoenix do ridiculously little damage to them (5-2)*2 = 6 damage per shot. Void rays would work but hydras, which is the usual complement to broodlords just rape hydras very easily and quickly. In addition, Void Rays are pretty expensive so to get a good number number of them to act as a reasonable counter will seriously deplete your ground army.
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On April 19 2010 17:09 lowlypawn wrote:
First off let me say that I don’t have a beta key (I think Blizzard hates me) so I could be way off on my observations but I have been keeping up with SC2 and watching a lot of Youtube videos. So with that said.
The consensus seems to be the main issue is the broodlings is how it screws up the AI. Wasn’t one of the main bitches about SC2 was the AI was too good? It was TOO easy to attack, surround units and that every player will now be able to focus on macro? Aren’t Broodlords big and slow? Can’t you just focus fire them and ignore the broodlings? Can’t you simply run away ground units that can’t attack air? Can’t you simply mass Air to Air units and take them out? It seems with the proper units and a little bit of micro they should be fairly easy to counter? Now we have a unit that forces the other player to micro and suddenly it’s called “imbalords”…
Broodlords reminds me of Chimaeras in WC3. Yes they are powerful but they are also easy to counter if you see them coming.
this is the problem. you can't walk through the broodlings so you cant get in range of the broodlords to focus them.
Broodlords are made from corrupter's, a very good AA unit. while terran can feasibly use vikings to counter toss cant, cause corrupter's shit on every air unit the toss has, plus the toss has to make a MAJOR investment to get air, and usually will be unable to mass a decent force to fight effectively.
People redesign their entire army composition to counter 5 broodlords and still lose. it is definitely not "easy to counter" and most people assume its coming when it gets really late-game
It has been said many times, people without Beta experience should not comment on the game or watch what they say. many high level platinum players who go very far in tournaments are having extreme troubles, for you to say just micro and it'll all work is extremely arrogant and naive, not to mention insulting.
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New Mechanic
I think BL should have just their initial attack BUT have an auto-cast ability that you can activate that costs a certain amount of energy per shot. This ability will be what spawns the broodlings so when the ability is not activated then the BL just does its initial attack but does not spawn the broodlings. I think this would give much more depth to the BL because you would have to manage the ability and you wouldnt be able to put on a crazy amount of pressure right away but rather wait a little longer for the energy to build up... or not... that would depend on the choice the player has to make.
*also note that giving BL energy will make them susceptible to Feedback from HTs*
just a factor to consider to any solutions via giving BL energy
EDIT: ooh EMP too, forgot about that one 
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On April 19 2010 17:16 Johoseph wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 17:09 lowlypawn wrote:
First off let me say that I don’t have a beta key (I think Blizzard hates me) so I could be way off on my observations but I have been keeping up with SC2 and watching a lot of Youtube videos. So with that said.
The consensus seems to be the main issue is the broodlings is how it screws up the AI. Wasn’t one of the main bitches about SC2 was the AI was too good? It was TOO easy to attack, surround units and that every player will now be able to focus on macro? Aren’t Broodlords big and slow? Can’t you just focus fire them and ignore the broodlings? Can’t you simply run away ground units that can’t attack air? Can’t you simply mass Air to Air units and take them out? It seems with the proper units and a little bit of micro they should be fairly easy to counter? Now we have a unit that forces the other player to micro and suddenly it’s called “imbalords”…
Broodlords reminds me of Chimaeras in WC3. Yes they are powerful but they are also easy to counter if you see them coming.
Shhh. Stop talking about air units. Lets just keep talking about how ground units die to them, it keeps the "nerf BLs" argument stronger!
Starcraft should not require you to get air to counter something. Generally each race has 1 air vs air specialist (protoss has zero in this case since phoenix doesn't do great damage against non-light) and requiring a specific unit to counter something leaves people incredibly vulnerable if they haven't invested heavily in the production facilities needed for the counter.
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Ryuu314, you seem to be hating the BLs as they consistently poonage you but i play zerg and let me tell you, i am very frustrated with sentries and immortals. The reason you always see BL's in your games is because as a zerg, there is no answer to a large toss army that is microed well. zerg just fails. how about we nerf BLs (which we see every game) if we nerf collosis, sentries and immortals (which we also see every game) ^^ ok thats not constructive, i guess im saying the game needs a lot of work wich i guess is redundant cause its the beta. just a rant then.
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If it hasn't been suggested, just broodlings pushable, like how you can push your own units around, or the units of a disconnected player. Broodlings could still be as effective units in their own right, they just wouldn't be able to spawn a permanent movement obstructing wall, which is something that should be reserved for the protoss race
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On April 19 2010 17:22 No_Roo wrote:If it hasn't been suggested, just broodlings pushable, like how you can push your own units around, or the units of a disconnected player. Broodlings could still be as effective units in their own right, they just wouldn't be able to spawn a permanent movement obstructing wall, which is something that should be reserved for the protoss race
Actually, that wouldn't be a bad fix for ultras. Let them push any non-massive units out of the way. It might fix some of their micro without shitting on collosi.
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edit: Read through bullet points 1-4 since the first two doesn't quite make sense each on their own
These are changes that I propose be made if there turns out to be a general cause for concern regarding broodlords. But right now I'm asking for a few replays from OP to substantiate the proposed claim of imbalords(no I'm not saying you arent a recognised member or something such). Anywho:
- Change clipping size(?) of the broodlings so that they don't completely wall of any units that want to go forward.
- Increase the movement speed of the broodlords just a bit(since units being fired upon can now move much easier through the mass of broodlings).
- Change the attack speed of broodlords and the spawn time of broodlings so that if a zerg player has four or less broodlords they can't create a "wall" of broodlings that hinders enemy units from going forward(although the broodlings bunching up will create small chokes but enemy units can still get past the broodlings with some micro). Attack speed and spawn time is of course balanced against the changed clipping size. Also need to change the damage done by broodlings so the dps of broodlords isnt lessened(imho they deal the right amount of dmg for a T3 unit).
- If a zerg player investes enough resources into five or more broodlords the attack speed of broodlords and clipping size of the broodlings will now have the effect of walling of the enemy units path so they either have to go around the broodlings or go back and wait for the proper units(or just having enough units) to deal with the broodlords(yeah that's right, you are getting punished for not getting the right units to deal with the broodlords and letting the zerg mass up a huge amount of resources and time to just spend on getting broodlords).
Quick facts about the broodlord(and how I came to the conclusion about four and five broodlords):
* Cost of Corruptor in mineral/gas/build time: 150/100/40
* Cost of Broodlord morph in mineral/gas/build time: 150/150/34
* Total cost of 1 broodlord: 300/250/74
* Total cost of 4 broodlords: 1200/1000/74 (build time will vary from 74 seconds up to 74x4 seconds depending on if you get them at the same time or in succession, duh  )
* Total cost of 5 broodlords: 1500/1250/74(again with the spawning at the same time or in succession, but probably in succession otherwise ground army will suffer too much).
Having invested this much minerals and gas and time into getting broodlords(which is also quite late in the game) you should be getting an advantage just like you do when getting bc's of equal amount of resources or carriers. Which directly leads to another question:
Do the broodlords really need to change from what they are now?
Maybe some sort of tweak is needed and what I proposed just isnt it, but imho players need to flank more during battles becuase what you see now on streams are huge balls meeting up and just going at it until one ball is smaller than the other, or small skirmishes which end early or mid game with one player being declared winner. In other words we need time for players to get used to units and start being creative with their positioning. And like someone else said in this thread, you hardly ever see broodlords so maybe they arent as imba as alot of people want to think.
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Ryuu314 wrote:
Generally, I counter BL+hydra with blink stalkers, sentries, and colossi. It works pretty well, but the only problem is that your colossi can't focus the hydras when they're trying to kill off all the broodlings. Also, you have to blink your stalkers pretty much right into the hydras in order to focus fire the broodlords. A good zerg will just move away with his broodlords while laughing at your stalkers getting raped by his hydras.
Wait... You blink directly to his BLs........ and he moves them away? MOVES THEM AWAY!? It takes a BL about a month and a half to move the distance one blink can move. Seriously, no, I just can't believe anything you say anymore. Apparently these Zerg are busting out some incredible micro with BLs, moving them away from your much much faster units.
BUT WAIT. He just moved them away... aka the broodling line is gone. New strategy in the making !???? Wowie.
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On April 19 2010 17:14 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 17:08 HeyheyLBJ wrote:On April 19 2010 17:00 Ryuu314 wrote:
And for the record, BLs are not the most expensive unit in the game for everyone who's screaming that (Heyhey). Carriers cost 550/300 (more minerals) and the Mothership costs 400/400 (more gas). Additionally, you're completely retarded if you think coruptors are useless. They are very good AA units (in PvZ I can't speak for TvZ as I don't play that matchup) and also act as a very solid counter against Colossi. It's not uncommon for a Zerg to have some Corruptors lying around for earlier anti-Colossi measures or even just simple air superiority (they're pretty good against Phoenix and passable against Void Rays.) Yeah, while Carriers don't cost 550/300 even with interceptors they are arguably more expensive than Brood Lords if you count the intercetptor cost. Battlecruisers are too. My mistake. Still I stand by that they are BY FAR the hardest unit to get in a real game. 8 interceptors at 25 minerals each is 200. They cost 350/300 regularly. Hence 550/300 and often you'll have to rebuild interceptors constantly as hydralisk are very good at killing them. Every single late game PvZ I've played had BLs in it. I was previously rank1 gold and got promoted so now I'm top 30 platinum. It's not just in iunno, non-real games or low-ranked games where they appear. I don't auto-lose every time the Zerg gets them, but the amount of damage they do is just incredibly disproportionate. The difficulty of getting them is incredibly overstated. Corruptors are pretty common in PvZ as a very good counter to not only colossi but protoss air in general. Furthermore, getting a hive and later, a greater spire, is not uncommon either. Infestation pits are very common as infestors are still very useful with their fungal growth ability even after the neural parasite nerf. Morphing a Hive and Greater Spire is an additional 250/350 in resource cost. That's not that expensive at all. Yes, it takes time for those buildings to morph, but it's not like Zerg production is completely stopped or anything during the building upgrade time.
You can't just make up that Carriers cost 50 extra gas, or that they don't start with 4 interceptors already, and claim they're more expensive. Sorry.
And you don't get to say that just because some buildings can be useful, the cost can be neglected completely. Zerg players don't build all those buildings just for fun. They certainly don't build a Spire AND an Infestation Pit if they're not going for a Hive, and they don't go for a Hive unless they're going for Brood Lords.
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On April 19 2010 17:24 FarbrorAbavna wrote:
.....And like someone else said in this thread, you hardly ever see broodlords so maybe they arent as imba as alot of people want to think.
lol what?
love how this BS argument keeps popping up.
its like saying carriers suck balls vs terran cause you only see them in 1/10 of the games, if that.
Broodlords are late-game units, so you can only take into account games that go into late-game. if a game ends in 10 minutes you can't say well broodlords weren't used here because___. if you only look at games that go late, broodlords appear VERY often.
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On April 19 2010 17:21 Novembermike wrote:
Starcraft should not require you to get air to counter something. Generally each race has 1 air vs air specialist (protoss has zero in this case since phoenix doesn't do great damage against non-light) and requiring a specific unit to counter something leaves people incredibly vulnerable if they haven't invested heavily in the production facilities needed for the counter.
Air (vikings/mutas/corruptors) is pretty much the standard counter to colossi... besides more colossi in pvp.
Ceteris paribus, if broodlords are nerfed, there'd be no reason to go to hive at all. Zerg would be like orc in war3.
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Broodlord can be compared to the Collosus in terms of cost, health, damage w/e. The only significant problem is broodlings as a wall.
I think an easy fix would be to limit each broodlord to two broodlings. The broodlord's initial attack would be two broodlings and then only when one dies will the broodlord attack with another broodling. If we look at damage, (if the broodlings are not attacked and last full duration) one broodling will deal 40 dmg (4dmg*10times) in 8 seconds, which is a DPS of 5. The broodlord itself has a dps of 10, and now with the addition of 2 broodlings with 5 dps each, the broodlord will have a total dps of 20. A Collosus also has a dps of about 20, but it does splash so it is even stronger.
That's my brilliant idea. Good or Bad? Like?
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On April 19 2010 17:31 Rucky wrote:
Broodlord can be compared to the Collosus in terms of cost, health, damage w/e. The only significant problem is broodlings as a wall.
I think an easy fix would be to limit each broodlord to two broodlings. The broodlord's initial attack would be two broodlings and then only when one dies will the broodlord attack with another broodling. If we look at damage, (if the broodlings are not attacked and last full duration) one broodling will deal 40 dmg (4dmg*10times) in 8 seconds, which is a DPS of 5. The broodlord itself has a dps of 10, and now with the addition of 2 broodlings with 5 dps each, the broodlord will have a total dps of 20. A Collosus also has a dps of about 20, but it does splash so it is even stronger.
That's my brilliant idea. Good or Bad? Like?
You'd have to up their base dps then. The actual damage they do right now is fine, they are a final tier unit like carriers and BC but they don't shoot up.
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ccou: Ceteris paribus, if broodlords are nerfed, there'd be no reason to go to hive at all. Zerg would be like orc in war3.
exactly. maybe if you are winning by far you would get an ultra for humiliation purposes.
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I mainly get Broodlords to harass a few expansions. IMO they should just nerf Broodlord HP and Broodling attack speed so that they won't be practical to bring along every clash. Gives Zerg the reason to go Ultralisks for that late-game army.
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On April 19 2010 17:24 FarbrorAbavna wrote:These are changes that I propose be made if there turns out to be a general cause for concern regarding broodlords. But right now I'm asking for a few replays from OP to substantiate the proposed claim of imbalords(no I'm not saying you arent a recognised member or something such). Anywho: - Change clipping size(?) of the broodlings so that they don't completely wall of any units that want to go forward.
- Increase the movement speed of the broodlords just a bit(since units being fired upon can now move much easier through the mass of broodlings).
- Change the attack speed of broodlords and the spawn time of broodlings so that if a zerg player has four or less broodlords they can't create a "wall" of broodlings that hinders enemy units from going forward(although the broodlings bunching up will create small chokes but enemy units can still get past the broodlings with some micro). Attack speed and spawn time is of course balanced against the changed clipping size. Also need to change the damage done by broodlings so the dps of broodlords isnt lessened(imho they deal the right amount of dmg for a T3 unit).
- If a zerg player investes enough resources into five or more broodlords the attack speed of broodlords and clipping size of the broodlings will now have the effect of walling of the enemy units path so they either have to go around the broodlings or go back and wait for the proper units(or just having enough units) to deal with the broodlords(yeah that's right, you are getting punished for not getting the right units to deal with the broodlords and letting the zerg mass up a huge amount of resources and time to just spend on getting broodlords).
Quick facts about the broodlord(and how I came to the conclusion about four and five broodlords): * Cost of Corruptor in mineral/gas/build time: 150/100/40 * Cost of Broodlord morph in mineral/gas/build time: 150/150/34 * Total cost of 1 broodlord: 300/250/74 * Total cost of 4 broodlords: 1200/1000/74 (build time will vary from 74 seconds up to 74x4 seconds depending on if you get them at the same time or in succession, duh ) * Total cost of 5 broodlords: 1500/1250/74(again with the spawning at the same time or in succession, but probably in succession otherwise ground army will suffer too much). Having invested this much minerals and gas and time into getting broodlords(which is also quite late in the game) you should be getting an advantage just like you do when getting bc's of equal amount of resources or carriers. Which directly leads to another question: Do the broodlords really need to change from what they are now?Maybe some sort of tweak is needed and what I proposed just isnt it, but imho players need to flank more during battles becuase what you see now on streams are huge balls meeting up and just going at it until one ball is smaller than the other, or small skirmishes which end early or mid game with one player being declared winner. In other words we need time for players to get used to units and start being creative with their positioning. And like someone else said in this thread, you hardly ever see broodlords so maybe they arent as imba as alot of people want to think.
I agree with this... wait, no I don't!
If you make build time for BCs 73 seconds then I would agree (they take massive 110 seconds). Wait I still won't agree. If I don't have to build a starport for every BC to be made simultaneously then I would agree.
Either way Broodlords build time is way too short. If a Terran or Toss player has the same resources they can't spam them nearly as fast. You may say that's the strength of the zerg, I'd have to agree. However other zerg units are still restricted to build time proportions to their tier. 73 seconds build time for broodlords is just r-e-d-i-c-u-l-o-u-s. I'm a random player btw, unbiased.
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Anyways before I hit the bed I still think way more strategies need to be developed before the imba threads keep rolling out. I mean, I remember a guy talking about Hellions vs. broodlords. Sound funny? Kind of. Until you realize that a few helions with pre-igniter upgrade would lay waste to any number of broodlings present at the front line, letting your units move forward.
Viable strategy? Who knows, but the idea seems to have vanished and was never talked about again.
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On April 19 2010 17:27 HeyheyLBJ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 17:14 Ryuu314 wrote:On April 19 2010 17:08 HeyheyLBJ wrote:On April 19 2010 17:00 Ryuu314 wrote:
And for the record, BLs are not the most expensive unit in the game for everyone who's screaming that (Heyhey). Carriers cost 550/300 (more minerals) and the Mothership costs 400/400 (more gas). Additionally, you're completely retarded if you think coruptors are useless. They are very good AA units (in PvZ I can't speak for TvZ as I don't play that matchup) and also act as a very solid counter against Colossi. It's not uncommon for a Zerg to have some Corruptors lying around for earlier anti-Colossi measures or even just simple air superiority (they're pretty good against Phoenix and passable against Void Rays.) Yeah, while Carriers don't cost 550/300 even with interceptors they are arguably more expensive than Brood Lords if you count the intercetptor cost. Battlecruisers are too. My mistake. Still I stand by that they are BY FAR the hardest unit to get in a real game. 8 interceptors at 25 minerals each is 200. They cost 350/300 regularly. Hence 550/300 and often you'll have to rebuild interceptors constantly as hydralisk are very good at killing them. Every single late game PvZ I've played had BLs in it. I was previously rank1 gold and got promoted so now I'm top 30 platinum. It's not just in iunno, non-real games or low-ranked games where they appear. I don't auto-lose every time the Zerg gets them, but the amount of damage they do is just incredibly disproportionate. The difficulty of getting them is incredibly overstated. Corruptors are pretty common in PvZ as a very good counter to not only colossi but protoss air in general. Furthermore, getting a hive and later, a greater spire, is not uncommon either. Infestation pits are very common as infestors are still very useful with their fungal growth ability even after the neural parasite nerf. Morphing a Hive and Greater Spire is an additional 250/350 in resource cost. That's not that expensive at all. Yes, it takes time for those buildings to morph, but it's not like Zerg production is completely stopped or anything during the building upgrade time. You can't just make up that Carriers cost 50 extra gas, or that they don't start with 4 interceptors already, and claim they're more expensive. Sorry. And you don't get to say that just because some buildings can be useful, the cost can be neglected completely. Zerg players don't build all those buildings just for fun. They certainly don't build a Spire AND an Infestation Pit if they're not going for a Hive, and they don't go for a Hive unless they're going for Brood Lords.
Such a hypocrite. It's not like the spire or infestation pit unlocks any useful tech for the zerg right? like Corrupter's are terrible vs Collosi and mutas suck as a harass unit plus infestors fungal growth in terrible vs Terran Bio blobs, Oh an how can we forget how useless Neural parasite is vs thors? I mean those buildings and units are just so damn useless.
On April 19 2010 17:25 Johoseph wrote:Show nested quote +Ryuu314 wrote:
Generally, I counter BL+hydra with blink stalkers, sentries, and colossi. It works pretty well, but the only problem is that your colossi can't focus the hydras when they're trying to kill off all the broodlings. Also, you have to blink your stalkers pretty much right into the hydras in order to focus fire the broodlords. A good zerg will just move away with his broodlords while laughing at your stalkers getting raped by his hydras. Wait... You blink directly to his BLs........ and he moves them away? MOVES THEM AWAY!? It takes a BL about a month and a half to move the distance one blink can move. Seriously, no, I just can't believe anything you say anymore. Apparently these Zerg are busting out some incredible micro with BLs, moving them away from your much much faster units. BUT WAIT. He just moved them away... aka the broodling line is gone. New strategy in the making !???? Wowie.
Why do zergs in this thread seem to not have a brain? yes they are slow but by the time you kill 2 of them the others are out of range (unless you've never played the Beta and never tried this out, and are just randomly theorycrafting). plus while your stalkers are trying to kill the broodlords they are getting massacred by the zerg ground army that they just blinked directly into the middle of.
btw, after the stalkers are dead he doesnt need a broodling line, since there is no AA left. Stalkers work well if BL's are unprotected by ground army, not so much otherwise
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On April 19 2010 17:31 Rucky wrote:
Broodlord can be compared to the Collosus in terms of cost, health, damage w/e. The only significant problem is broodlings as a wall.
I think an easy fix would be to limit each broodlord to two broodlings. The broodlord's initial attack would be two broodlings and then only when one dies will the broodlord attack with another broodling. If we look at damage, (if the broodlings are not attacked and last full duration) one broodling will deal 40 dmg (4dmg*10times) in 8 seconds, which is a DPS of 5. The broodlord itself has a dps of 10, and now with the addition of 2 broodlings with 5 dps each, the broodlord will have a total dps of 20. A Collosus also has a dps of about 20, but it does splash so it is even stronger.
That's my brilliant idea. Good or Bad? Like?
not a bad idea but i personally would like to see changes that make the unit more in depth and help it to be used more strategically rather than just a-move... i like my idea better ^_^
i think most people are thinking too linear with most solutions...
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Chen wrote:
Why do zergs in this thread seem to not have a brain? yes they are slow but by the time you kill 2 of them the others are out of range (unless you've never played the Beta and never tried this out, and are just randomly theorycrafting). plus while your stalkers are trying to kill the broodlords they are getting massacred by the zerg ground army that they just blinked directly into the middle of.
btw, after the stalkers are dead he doesnt need a broodling line, since there is no AA left. Stalkers work well if BL's are unprotected by ground army, not so much otherwise
How about... Blink under them, and spam FFs to push his hydra line toward your own army, giving the stalkers free rein on the BLs?
See, we're expanding the strategy already!!! Thanks for making me come up with another facet of the strategy! Good work sir!
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On April 19 2010 17:39 R0YAL wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 17:31 Rucky wrote:
Broodlord can be compared to the Collosus in terms of cost, health, damage w/e. The only significant problem is broodlings as a wall.
I think an easy fix would be to limit each broodlord to two broodlings. The broodlord's initial attack would be two broodlings and then only when one dies will the broodlord attack with another broodling. If we look at damage, (if the broodlings are not attacked and last full duration) one broodling will deal 40 dmg (4dmg*10times) in 8 seconds, which is a DPS of 5. The broodlord itself has a dps of 10, and now with the addition of 2 broodlings with 5 dps each, the broodlord will have a total dps of 20. A Collosus also has a dps of about 20, but it does splash so it is even stronger.
That's my brilliant idea. Good or Bad? Like?
not a bad idea but i personally would like to see changes that make the unit more in depth and help it to be used more strategically rather than just a-move... i like my idea better ^_^
Okay, depth. I got it. Give Broodlords energy like you said and require 50 energy to shoot out 1 broodling so that broodlords will have to sit around before they can spawn more than the initial 2+1(starts with 50 energy)=3. HERE'S my addition to make it even crazier. Give broodlords the consume ability so that they can consume zerglings giving them 50 energy each so that they can shoot out more broodlings. With full 200 energy, you got 4 broodling shots and you can consume during the battle to effectively trade a zergling on the battlefield into a broodling which messes with the AI way more than a zergling.
I started out serious about this, but i just realized how funny it sounds LOL
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I would vote for reducing broodling hp to 5 or 6 so they die in one shot to anything. Either that or make the brood lord into a semi-reaver. Make the unit build and hold the broodlings (say max 10), double the firing delay, but make the broodlings last 20 seconds instead of 8. It is kind of ridiculous to think that a unit can make free zerglings, when you have to pay for them and have supply to support them normally.
It's a great concept but ya, no one goes ultras since BL own so hard.
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On April 19 2010 17:42 Johoseph wrote:Show nested quote +Chen wrote:
Why do zergs in this thread seem to not have a brain? yes they are slow but by the time you kill 2 of them the others are out of range (unless you've never played the Beta and never tried this out, and are just randomly theorycrafting). plus while your stalkers are trying to kill the broodlords they are getting massacred by the zerg ground army that they just blinked directly into the middle of.
btw, after the stalkers are dead he doesnt need a broodling line, since there is no AA left. Stalkers work well if BL's are unprotected by ground army, not so much otherwise How about... Blink under them, and spam FFs to push his hydra line toward your own army, giving the stalkers free rein on the BLs? See, we're expanding the strategy already!!! Thanks for making me come up with another facet of the strategy! Good work sir!
Could replace FFs with storm or probably colossi. Colossi is usually the reason I end up with broodlords instead of a purely roach/hydra army because I'd have a bunch of otherwise worthless corruptors.
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The only problem I see with Broodlords is that their armor type is Armored if memory serves correct.
There is no air unit that can handle armored air units properly, hence why broodlords are so hard to kill using anti air, it is the armor type nothing else.
Give each race 1 air unit that does +armored damage, well modify one of the existing air units to do +armored damage is all.
Protoss Stalkers have the best chance at killing broodlords = Blink+ranged+shoots air+armored damage, matching each broodlord with a Voidray is also another way to handle them, broodlords movement is very slow.
Terran Vikings are pretty effective at handling them only for the simple reason that you can produce vikings for so much cheaper and so much faster, reactor for the win
Zerg vs Broodlords, well can go muta/corruptor yourself to combat the broodlords.
The game is about matching up strategy/unit, if you see or suspect your opponent going broodlords you should prepare for that, start making your own anti air units, whatever they might be.
Cant expect to stick with ground units and win vs air
Brroodlords are annoying yes, they are powerful yes, imbalanced hard to say, since they cost alot, take alot of time to build and move slowly.
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On April 19 2010 17:47 Rucky wrote:
Okay, depth. I got it. Give Broodlords energy like you said and require 50 energy to shoot out 1 broodling so that broodlords will have to sit around before they can spawn more than the initial 2+1(starts with 50 energy)=3. HERE'S my addition to make it even crazier. Give broodlords the consume ability so that they can consume zerglings giving them 50 energy each so that they can shoot out more broodlings. With full 200 energy, you got 4 broodling shots and you can consume during the battle to effectively trade a zergling on the battlefield into a broodling which messes with the AI way more than a zergling.
I started out serious about this, but i just realized how funny it sounds LOL
haha well at least your thinkin out of the box! :D
we could even think of better ways the BL functions like giving it an ability that "sucks up" your units and then the BL can shoot that unit at the enemy instead of broodlings lol
probably would only be realistic for it to only work with lings
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On April 19 2010 17:51 Random69 wrote:
The only problem I see with Broodlords is that their armor type is Armored if memory serves correct.
There is no air unit that can handle armored air units properly, hence why broodlords are so hard to kill using anti air, it is the armor type nothing else.
Biological and massive.
not armored
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I personally think that Broodlords are the only reason why Zerg has chances of winning in the lategame (in case of huge armies on both sides), so if you nerf them again, it should only be a very small nerf, or the ultralisk has to be buffed at the same time.
Lowering the hp of the broodlings from 20 to 15 seems like the smallest of the proposed nerfs, and thats what i guess would be ok.
What many people have not yet managed to do very well is to just outmaneuver the Broodlords, as they are extremely slow, and just attack the mainbase or an expansion once they move out to attack.
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You guys saying broodlords build time need to take into account that they are practically tier 5 units. They require...
Spawning pool
Lair
Infestor Pit
Spire
Make Corruptors
Hive
Upgrade Spire
Upgrade Corruptors
I think the latest tech in the game deserves to be pretty good no? You can't expect them to be just a little better than a carrier or cruiser when they can't hit air and take much longer to build.
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This isn't my idea but I read it off another site can't remember which though...
Someone said giving the Consume-like ability to the Broodlord. Giving the Broodlord a certain capacity would force the Zerg user to use the Broodlord with their main army so they can constantly replenish their broodlings in order to attack. Also, this makes Zerg make a decision whether to sacrifice mobility for firepower.
I thought this was a pretty neat idea~
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I think Broodlords are fine. Late game, Zerg units melt way too fast to splash without them.
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On April 19 2010 17:58 Ozarugold wrote:
This isn't my idea but I read it off another site can't remember which though...
Someone said giving the Consume-like ability to the Broodlord. Giving the Broodlord a certain capacity would force the Zerg user to use the Broodlord with their main army so they can constantly replenish their broodlings in order to attack. Also, this makes Zerg make a decision whether to sacrifice mobility for firepower.
I thought this was a pretty neat idea~
only problem is that i cant really think of a good reason to sacrifice units just so your BL can shoot broodlings :\
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ill tell you all what the problem is. sc2 players suck and are not creative and have bad micro =D just think about how all these games play out. players get HUGE balls of units and move out. the end. doesnt that sound, well, noobish. surely its not a bad thing that your one huge ball of units dies to something? doesnt this require you to... SPLIT YOUR ARMY. oh my lord, i need to breath...a sc2 game where there isnt just one big army late game that moves around... who would have thunk it? never mind, this idea is too radical... lets rather adjust the game to fit a 1 big ball of death style of play...
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On April 19 2010 17:53 FictionJV wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 17:51 Random69 wrote:
The only problem I see with Broodlords is that their armor type is Armored if memory serves correct.
There is no air unit that can handle armored air units properly, hence why broodlords are so hard to kill using anti air, it is the armor type nothing else.
Biological and massive. not armored
Im sorry but my memory is too good even for you...
here are the stats
Race
Zerg
Armament
Broodling strike[1]
Properties
Hit points
275[1]
Type
Air
Massive[1]
Armor type
Armored[1]
Production
Minerals
150[1] Image:Minerals Terran SC1.png
Gas
150[1]
Control
2[1] Control
Build time
34[1] time
Evolves from
Corruptor[1]
Requires
Greater spire[1]
Hot key
B[1]
Combat
Ground attack
20 (unleashes 1-2 broodlings, +3 damage per upgrade)[1]
Cooldown
Normal[1]
Armor
2[1]
Attack range
9[1]
Unit speed
Normal[1]
As you can all now see, Broodlords armor type is the issue, since alot of air units and anti air units damage is designed for +light armor they are useless versus Broodlords and the same goes for Battlecruisers to be honest.
1 Battle cruiser can kill 2 carriers, 1 battlecruiser can solo 4-5 phoenix
So ye Cruisers are also imbalanced, Yamato Cannon OP vs Carriers
and Phoenix damage vs BC are just a joke and same vs Broodlords
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Broodlords might not necessarily need a nerf; the units that counter them may need a buff.
I don't believe in nerfing stronger units all the time; If the AA ground units that should counter them are having issues against them, then it isn't the broodlord's fault. The ground units may need something to do better damage against them. Broodlord's are seen as "imbalanced" because of their ability to exert so much ground control at the moment.
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On April 19 2010 15:33 CharlieMurphy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 15:32 nodule wrote:
It would be much better to lay out a supported case for why you think that they are imbalanced rather than trying to figure out an appropriate nerf. It only results in silly unworkable proposals (e.g., to give broodlings all armor types) Do I really have to do this? The main problem lies within the fact that broodlings screw with the AI and movement of the ground AA units.
Well if that's the main problem then at least from a protoss persepctive blink fixes everything. "Broodlords are too strong because I have to tell my units to attack them or they'll attack broodlings instead" isn't really much of an argument =P. It's supposed to be a game that requires skill afterall. And blink makes positioning your stalkers trivial.
Honestly I don't have much to say about broodlords, because I don't encounter them often enough. But I do find that that's the same for everyone else. People are much too quick to scream nerfstick as soon as something seems to be "hard" in the game. I mean, these are the top tier of zerg tech, they're supposed to pack a heck of a punch. From the time I have encountered broodlords they seemed about as hard to beat as a carrier switch was in TvP in SC:BW. Meaning borderline broken, definitely frustrating, but with experience it can be handled.
I think the bigger problem people have with the broodlord is the fact that it spawns from the corruptor, essentially resulting in both a dedicated anti-air and a dedicated anti-ground army flying around the map with massive HP. Like I said I don't have any insight on how to most efficiently deal with that kind of an army composition, but I would wager that the same is true for almost anyone else. Even the top players.
For example in broodwar you handled carrier switches by expanding all over the map. And i know I've heard people say that enough hellions will roast any broodlings before they can do damage.
Are broodlords strong and annoying? yes. Are they overpowered? I'm not convinced yet.
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On April 19 2010 17:57 Attica wrote:
You guys saying broodlords build time need to take into account that they are practically tier 5 units. They require...
Spawning pool
Lair
Infestor Pit
Spire
Make Corruptors
Hive
Upgrade Spire
Upgrade Corruptors
I think the latest tech in the game deserves to be pretty good no? You can't expect them to be just a little better than a carrier or cruiser when they can't hit air and take much longer to build.
How many times do I have to post this, BC takes 110 seconds and 120 seconds for Carriers (even if you manage to save up infinite amount of chrono boost the stargates it still builds slower than Broodlords).
Broodlords have build time of 40+33 and can be built simultaneously without building multiple starports or stargates. sighz. The irony is that they are practically tier 5 but builds so so fast, it's insane. Actually it makes no sense what so ever =_=;
So basically if you go up to tier five, you can make units that build in 73 seconds and own ground units.
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On April 19 2010 17:57 Attica wrote:
You guys saying broodlords build time need to take into account that they are practically tier 5 units. They require...
Spawning pool
Lair
Infestor Pit
Spire
Make Corruptors
Hive
Upgrade Spire
Upgrade Corruptors
I think the latest tech in the game deserves to be pretty good no? You can't expect them to be just a little better than a carrier or cruiser when they can't hit air and take much longer to build.
Carriers require:
Pylon
Gateway
Cybernetics Core
Stargates (yes plural, unlike zerg)
Fleet beacon
BC's:
Barracks
Factory
Starports
Tech lab
Fusion core
Armory for upgrades so they can do something.
Plus the build/morph corrupter mechanic is an advantage. A) it takes significantly less time to build at the cost of 1 more click, omg thats soo fucking hard. B)you get a return on your investment much faster plus you automatically get the unit that covers the BL's weakness
Zerg:6 buildings needed
Toss:5 buildings, 6-7 in reality since 1 stargate carriers is just bullshit
Terran: 6, 7-8 for the same reasons as above.
Broodlords are not excessively expensive as compared to the other races top units, yet can't be compared in effectiveness.
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On April 19 2010 18:30 Chen wrote:
Carriers require:
Pylon
Gateway
Cybernetics Core
Stargates (yes plural, unlike zerg)
Fleet beacon
BC's:
Barracks
Factory
Starports
Tech lab
Fusion core
Armory for upgrades so they can do something.
Plus the build/morph corrupter mechanic is an advantage. A) it takes significantly less time to build at the cost of 1 more click, omg thats soo fucking hard. B)you get a return on your investment much faster plus you automatically get the unit that covers the BL's weakness
Zerg:6 buildings needed
Toss:5 buildings, 6-7 in reality since 1 stargate carriers is just bullshit
Terran: 6, 7-8 for the same reasons as above.
Broodlords are not excessively expensive as compared to the other races top units, yet can't be compared in effectiveness.
this is a terrible way to speculate imho because you cant tech straight to broodlords... pure lings cant hold u up until BL pop -.-
on paper your right but ingame is totally different
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It's strange how I don't see Broodlords tearing it up at the highest levels of play. If they really were this amazing, you would think the people who use them would skyrocket right to the top levels and own everybody for all to see, right? Unless Broodlords aren't really all that deserving of a nerf...
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On April 19 2010 17:38 Chen wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 17:27 HeyheyLBJ wrote:On April 19 2010 17:14 Ryuu314 wrote:On April 19 2010 17:08 HeyheyLBJ wrote:On April 19 2010 17:00 Ryuu314 wrote:
And for the record, BLs are not the most expensive unit in the game for everyone who's screaming that (Heyhey). Carriers cost 550/300 (more minerals) and the Mothership costs 400/400 (more gas). Additionally, you're completely retarded if you think coruptors are useless. They are very good AA units (in PvZ I can't speak for TvZ as I don't play that matchup) and also act as a very solid counter against Colossi. It's not uncommon for a Zerg to have some Corruptors lying around for earlier anti-Colossi measures or even just simple air superiority (they're pretty good against Phoenix and passable against Void Rays.) Yeah, while Carriers don't cost 550/300 even with interceptors they are arguably more expensive than Brood Lords if you count the intercetptor cost. Battlecruisers are too. My mistake. Still I stand by that they are BY FAR the hardest unit to get in a real game. 8 interceptors at 25 minerals each is 200. They cost 350/300 regularly. Hence 550/300 and often you'll have to rebuild interceptors constantly as hydralisk are very good at killing them. Every single late game PvZ I've played had BLs in it. I was previously rank1 gold and got promoted so now I'm top 30 platinum. It's not just in iunno, non-real games or low-ranked games where they appear. I don't auto-lose every time the Zerg gets them, but the amount of damage they do is just incredibly disproportionate. The difficulty of getting them is incredibly overstated. Corruptors are pretty common in PvZ as a very good counter to not only colossi but protoss air in general. Furthermore, getting a hive and later, a greater spire, is not uncommon either. Infestation pits are very common as infestors are still very useful with their fungal growth ability even after the neural parasite nerf. Morphing a Hive and Greater Spire is an additional 250/350 in resource cost. That's not that expensive at all. Yes, it takes time for those buildings to morph, but it's not like Zerg production is completely stopped or anything during the building upgrade time. You can't just make up that Carriers cost 50 extra gas, or that they don't start with 4 interceptors already, and claim they're more expensive. Sorry. And you don't get to say that just because some buildings can be useful, the cost can be neglected completely. Zerg players don't build all those buildings just for fun. They certainly don't build a Spire AND an Infestation Pit if they're not going for a Hive, and they don't go for a Hive unless they're going for Brood Lords. Such a hypocrite. It's not like the spire or infestation pit unlocks any useful tech for the zerg right? like Corrupter's are terrible vs Collosi and mutas suck as a harass unit plus infestors fungal growth in terrible vs Terran Bio blobs, Oh an how can we forget how useless Neural parasite is vs thors? I mean those buildings and units are just so damn useless.
I don't believe I said anything of the usefulness of any of those units. I also don't see what Hive and Greater Spire has to do with Mutas, Infestors and Corruptors.
Just because Mutas and Infestors can be useful doesn't mean every Zerg throws down a Spire and Infestation Pit in EVERY game, or that the buildings suddenly don't cost anything.
I don't understand why threads such a these are allowed. It's not a consensus that Brood Lords are imba, and I don't really see any proof that they are. Not one replay have been posted.
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On April 19 2010 18:41 Inori wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 18:34 R0YAL wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 19 2010 18:30 Chen wrote:
Carriers require:
Pylon
Gateway
Cybernetics Core
Stargates (yes plural, unlike zerg)
Fleet beacon
BC's:
Barracks
Factory
Starports
Tech lab
Fusion core
Armory for upgrades so they can do something.
Plus the build/morph corrupter mechanic is an advantage. A) it takes significantly less time to build at the cost of 1 more click, omg thats soo fucking hard. B)you get a return on your investment much faster plus you automatically get the unit that covers the BL's weakness
Zerg:6 buildings needed
Toss:5 buildings, 6-7 in reality since 1 stargate carriers is just bullshit
Terran: 6, 7-8 for the same reasons as above.
Broodlords are not excessively expensive as compared to the other races top units, yet can't be compared in effectiveness. this is a terrible way to speculate imho because you cant tech straight to broodlords... pure lings cant hold u up until BL pop -.- on paper your right but ingame is totally different Yeah, because pure Carrier or BC tech is totally viable and awesome. Oh wait...
But... he just said that it's a terrible way to speculate...
Are you able to read AND comprehend or do you just read for fun and then write whatever comes to mind?
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Yeah, weren't there new rules about suggesting imba?
Teh reps?
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On April 19 2010 18:46 Inori wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 18:42 HeyheyLBJ wrote:On April 19 2010 18:41 Inori wrote:On April 19 2010 18:34 R0YAL wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 19 2010 18:30 Chen wrote:
Carriers require:
Pylon
Gateway
Cybernetics Core
Stargates (yes plural, unlike zerg)
Fleet beacon
BC's:
Barracks
Factory
Starports
Tech lab
Fusion core
Armory for upgrades so they can do something.
Plus the build/morph corrupter mechanic is an advantage. A) it takes significantly less time to build at the cost of 1 more click, omg thats soo fucking hard. B)you get a return on your investment much faster plus you automatically get the unit that covers the BL's weakness
Zerg:6 buildings needed
Toss:5 buildings, 6-7 in reality since 1 stargate carriers is just bullshit
Terran: 6, 7-8 for the same reasons as above.
Broodlords are not excessively expensive as compared to the other races top units, yet can't be compared in effectiveness. this is a terrible way to speculate imho because you cant tech straight to broodlords... pure lings cant hold u up until BL pop -.- on paper your right but ingame is totally different Yeah, because pure Carrier or BC tech is totally viable and awesome. Oh wait... But... he just said that it's a terrible way to speculate... Are you able to read AND comprehend or do you just read for fun and then write whatever comes to mind? I suggest you actually read the whole thing with quotes and then answer your own question.
I just did.
Answer: Yes, I can read. Yes, I can comprehend.
The one who said it was a terrible way to speculate was NOT the one who began to speculate in that manner, he just said it's a terrible way to do things... and then someone agreeing with him disagreed with him... That's not very clever at all.
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On April 19 2010 18:41 Inori wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 18:34 R0YAL wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 19 2010 18:30 Chen wrote:
Carriers require:
Pylon
Gateway
Cybernetics Core
Stargates (yes plural, unlike zerg)
Fleet beacon
BC's:
Barracks
Factory
Starports
Tech lab
Fusion core
Armory for upgrades so they can do something.
Plus the build/morph corrupter mechanic is an advantage. A) it takes significantly less time to build at the cost of 1 more click, omg thats soo fucking hard. B)you get a return on your investment much faster plus you automatically get the unit that covers the BL's weakness
Zerg:6 buildings needed
Toss:5 buildings, 6-7 in reality since 1 stargate carriers is just bullshit
Terran: 6, 7-8 for the same reasons as above.
Broodlords are not excessively expensive as compared to the other races top units, yet can't be compared in effectiveness. this is a terrible way to speculate imho because you cant tech straight to broodlords... pure lings cant hold u up until BL pop -.- on paper your right but ingame is totally different Yeah, because pure Carrier or BC tech is totally viable and awesome. Oh wait...
actually there is a difference because the tech required for T also allows you to get marauders, hellions, tanks, banshees, medivacs, vikings... and P can get zeals, sentries, stalkers, phoenixs, VR... its all about the transitioning...
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I'm OK with the broodlords as they are now, but with protoss, there's no, NO way to deal with them. Stalkers vs Broodlors is like goliaths vs sunkens, phoenix, void ray bah...so that leaves carriers only. Which is absurd vs zerg.
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I just noticed this thread doesn't meet the new standards for threads in the SC2 section. Anyone want to start taking bets on how long till this thread gets closed?
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On April 19 2010 18:56 ComradeDover wrote:
I just noticed this thread doesn't meet the new standards for threads in the SC2 section. Anyone want to start taking bets on how long till this thread gets closed?
probably before they bring back 2v2's
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I got a replay
I know i'm not the the best player (Low Gold league) - but the replay really shows how 6-7 broodlords just annhilate a huge army of thors and MM, and completley turning the game.
http://jump.fm/MJWRO
(Press save file to your pc)
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On April 19 2010 19:06 Silent_Tao wrote:I got a replay I know i'm not the the best player (Low Gold league) - but the replay really shows how 6-7 broodlords just annhilate a huge army of thors and MM, and completley turning the game. http://jump.fm/MJWRO(Press save file to your pc)
nice effort to help contribute but the rules are 8+ plat level reps... its the thought that counts tho n_n (if only...)
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Make the Broodlords require energy every time it attacks, say 15 energy (Give Broodlords a total of 200 energy)? This way Z has to prioritize its targets for the Broodlord. Plus, allows Ghost's EMP and HT's Feedback to soft counter them.
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On April 19 2010 19:09 R0YAL wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 19:06 Silent_Tao wrote:I got a replay I know i'm not the the best player (Low Gold league) - but the replay really shows how 6-7 broodlords just annhilate a huge army of thors and MM, and completley turning the game. http://jump.fm/MJWRO(Press save file to your pc) nice effort to help contribute but the rules are 8+ plat level reps... its the thought that counts tho n_n (if only...)
The rules are for the OP, I'm just trying to demonstrate the point better - everyone is free to judge themself.
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I feel that the real power of broodlords comes less from their power itsself and moreso from protoss' lack of antiair. Granted I have not had many games against this yet, I still had HUGE problems when someone went air. I remeber one game, some guy play 1hatch muta with just a shitton of sunkens, getting his nat eventually and just going for pure sunk/drone/upped muta with a few corruptors to stop cannons. I outexpanded him and went for mass gateway units with a couple phoenixes, but i saw virtually no way to defend any expo without having pretty much my whole army there, while he happily took out the ones that were "only" guarded by 5 or 6 cannons.
The other game a guy went for mass speedlings with a couple roaches into pretty fast broodlords. And while again I had a huge economic lead and a big enough army I just couldn't kill his broodlords. Storm doesn't do much damage to them, stalkers with blink is pretty much suicide against the massive amount of zerglings underneath the broodlords. and void rays/phoenix just suck against other air units (or just putting like 10 hydras under your broodlords).
Of course I didn't use the timing windows which I'm sure I had during those games to finish the z off, but I still feel that there is no efficient counter to air even with a big economic lead.
compare what protoss had against air in sc1 to sc2
Archons had splash damage
Storm was more powerful against mutas (easier to dodge now)
Corsairs had splash AND a useful anti-ground ability.
even scouts were strong against devourers and guardians
possible solutions from the top of my head:
-Give archons or phoenixes splash damage
-add a damage bonus against air to storm or a certain unit (maybe the phoenix, can't think of any other) or give phoenix back the overload ability.
-add an anti-air unit or ability (which would be very tricky, because a unit that can counter mutas effectively might suck against broodlords and vice-versa, it would have to be a goliath kind of unit with low damage to ground and high damage/range to air)
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So nerf broodlords so that zerg can't engage a terran or protoss ball in any way? I don't agree Broodlords take forever to get to and cost a tonne considering what they do.
Terran have:
Vikings
Thors
Marines
Ravens
Ghosts
Battlecruisers
(6 units)
& Protoss have :
Stalker
Sentry
High Templar
Archon
Pheonix
Void Ray
Carrier
Mothership (8 units)
They can all target air so what is the problem? Before you scream for nerfs try and use those units. Just cos your current ball owns zerg so hard except for broodlord you can't expect a nerf its just ridiculous at this point. Its like saying Zerg can never have a good long range unit even though toss & terran have insane long range units that do splash much earlier in the tech tree.
The only concern I would have as a toss or terran is with Broodling interfering with the Attack AI and taking priority from attacking units, but with the splash in both races I don't see it being a problem anyway.
Ways you can deal with broodlings for terran are hellions and seige tanks or enough of a bio ball to just mince the lings instantly which isn't that big of a ball at all.
For Protoss its a bit more tricky but just having enough stuff is enough to deal with broodlings, colossi, mince them np's.
I just don't think they are as OP as people say they are, if you let the zerg get to the point of getting broodlords you've pretty much given them a hell of a lot of time to get there and you probably should use your many options more effectively.
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Protoss has psistorm and z has broodlords, both are imba but in the game, life with that!
And they are cool and good for sc2 as they are...
On April 19 2010 19:18 Adeeler wrote:
Terran have:
Vikings
Thors
Marines
Ravens
Ghosts
Battlecruisers
(6 units)
& Protoss have :
Stalker
Sentry
High Templar
Archon
Pheonix
Void Ray
Carrier
Mothership (8 units)
They can all target air so what is the problem?
Yes there is no problem! Close
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
One thing that I think would make the brood lord perfectly fine, is keep broodlings how they are, but have the broodlord not do damage on hit, or atleast significantly less, that gives armies the chance to pick off the broodlings.
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The problem is not with the Broodlords, but with their counters.
They are similar to the Guardians in SC1. - they require the same tech level, they cost a lot of money, move slow and attack ground only.
There were several counters to Guardians in SC1, but they are removed/changed is SC2. I'll tell about ground units, because anti-air is responsibility to Devourers in SC1 and Corruptors in SC2.
Protoss has one major counter to Guardians - psi storm. It needs 2 to kill a Guardian. Now in SC2 the psi storm is too weak - it has smaller radius and does less damage. In SC2, 4-5 storms are needed to kill a Brood Lord.
The other counter vs Guardians are the Goons. But their range is smaller, they are big and their AI is stupid. Maybe they are as good against Guardians, as stalkers are good against Brood Lords.
Also the Maelstorm could be helpfull (which doesn't exist in sc2).
So, if the storm was so weak in SC1 and if there was no maelstorm, the protoss would have no good counter against Guardians.
Terran has great counters vs Guardians in SC1. First is irradiate. It costs 75 energy and can easily kill a guardian (and damage nearby enemy units).
But there is no irradiate in SC2. Seeker missiles maybe can do something, but they require more energy and do less damage.
The second counter in SC1 is the Goliath - it has the same range as the Guardian. But in SC2 it is replaced by the big, expensive and slow Thor.
So, without irradiate and Goliaths, terrans would have trouble against Guardians.
Zerg - vs Guardians they have Hydras+Dark Swarm and Plague. Both Swarm and Plague don't exist in SC2.
The problem is not that BLs are too strong (thei HP is MAYBE too high), but the (ground) counters against big air ranged slow units (Guardian in SC1 and Brood Lord in SC2) from SC1 are removed in SC2 (Goliaths, Maelstorm, Irradiate, Plague, Dark Swarm) or are too weak (psi storm, Thor).
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I feel that you probably need to beat mass Broodlords like you would as a Zerg vs Terran Mech army in SC1 - they're relatively slow (same speed as BCs), so constantly threaten to backstab as soon as they try to move out, then outmass them. Haven't really played against many broodlord-heavy zergs, so I might be wrong, but to me, that seems like a good idea.
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On April 19 2010 19:18 Adeeler wrote:
So nerf broodlords so that zerg can't engage a terran or protoss ball in any way? I don't agree Broodlords take forever to get to and cost a tonne considering what they do.
Terran have:
Vikings
Thors
Marines
Ravens
Ghosts
Battlecruisers
(6 units)
& Protoss have :
Stalker
Sentry
High Templar
Archon
Pheonix
Void Ray
Carrier
Mothership (8 units)
They can all target air so what is the problem? Before you scream for nerfs try and use those units. Just cos your current ball owns zerg so hard except for broodlord you can't expect a nerf its just ridiculous at this point. Its like saying Zerg can never have a good long range unit even though toss & terran have insane long range units that do splash much earlier in the tech tree.
The only concern I would have as a toss or terran is with Broodling interfering with the Attack AI and taking priority from attacking units, but with the splash in both races I don't see it being a problem anyway.
Ways you can deal with broodlings for terran are hellions and seige tanks or enough of a bio ball to just mince the lings instantly which isn't that big of a ball at all.
For Protoss its a bit more tricky but just having enough stuff is enough to deal with broodlings, colossi, mince them np's.
I just don't think they are as OP as people say they are, if you let the zerg get to the point of getting broodlords you've pretty much given them a hell of a lot of time to get there and you probably should use your many options more effectively.
....
do you have beta/ever even SEEN a game of sc2? have you read a single page of this thread? or are you just spouting random bullshit?
the fact that you even mention sentries, archons, carriers, motherships, and phoenix as possible counters to BL's is laughable, not to mention ravens(if z is retarded these work) and ghosts.
stop doing your bullshit theorycraft if you have no idea what you are talking about.
retards like you deserve to be banned.
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On April 19 2010 18:30 Chen wrote:
Carriers require:
Pylon
Gateway
Cybernetics Core
Stargates (yes plural, unlike zerg)
Fleet beacon
BC's:
Barracks
Factory
Starports
Tech lab
Fusion core
Armory for upgrades so they can do something.
Plus the build/morph corrupter mechanic is an advantage. A) it takes significantly less time to build at the cost of 1 more click, omg thats soo fucking hard. B)you get a return on your investment much faster plus you automatically get the unit that covers the BL's weakness
Zerg:6 buildings needed
Toss:5 buildings, 6-7 in reality since 1 stargate carriers is just bullshit
Terran: 6, 7-8 for the same reasons as above.
Broodlords are not excessively expensive as compared to the other races top units, yet can't be compared in effectiveness.
I like how you counted a Pylon in there as if zerg and terran don't get overlords and supply depots. Let's try this out so you can understand better.
m = minerals
g= gas
t= time
Zerg
Spawning Pool - 200 m 65t
Lair- 150m 100g 80t
Spire -200m 200g 100t
Infestation pit- 100m 100g 50t
Hive- 200m 150g 100t
Greater Spire- 100m 150g 100t
Total Building Cost - 950 m 700g 495t
Corruptor- 150m 100g 2food 40t
Broodlord- 150m 150g 34t
Total Unit Cost- 300m 250g 4 food 74t
Protoss
Gateway- 150m 65t
Cyber core- 150m 50t
Stargate- 150m 150g 60t
Flight beacon- 300m 200g 60t
Total Building Cost- 750m 350g 235t
Carrier- 350m 250g 6 food 120t
Terran
Barracks- 150m 60t
Tech Lab- 50m 25g 25t
Factory- 150m 100g 60t
Starport- 150m 100g 50t
Fusion Core- 150m 150g 80t
Total Building Cost- 650m 375g 275t
Battle Cruiser- 400m 300g 6 food 110t
It takes twice or almost twice as long to get to broodlords than it does for toss or terran to get to their tier 3 air. One might argue that you could lay your spire while upgrading to Hive but if you want to be realistic no zerg is going to have that much gas lying around to immediately spend unless it's much later in the game. I'd also like to add that zerg tech even slower than those numbers due to the style of the race (fast expo, mass units due to inability to block chokes, etc).
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Late game units should be powerful but one of the problems is that carrier and cattlebruiser arent at the same level..
Especially carriers since bcs have yamato to 1shot all their air counters from all 3 races and have more armor and hp to deal with GtA attacks from marines, hydras, stalkers.. And good air support raven with point defence.
Its not all about stats either, its how they fit in your army and what counter other races have..
Also ultras have awesome stats but they dont work well..
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I would say since the broodling messes with the ai just lower the attack of the broodling to 1 damage (upgradable to 4 (1+3)
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I think they need to be easier to kill. A unit with that kind of range with that kind of damage shouldnt also have good survivability. Getting in range to target them (which is difficult in and of itself) with any ground force is suicidal because by the time you get in range the rest of their army is in ur face.
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why is it that i am scared of protoss and zerg t3 units while my terran t3 units are just meh? 
on the BL: the spawn broodling ability needs to go. just make it a buffed guardian and buff ultralisk speed and make the armor upgrade free.
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Broodlings only spawn upon the killing of a unit or structure.
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On April 19 2010 19:46 Powda wrote:
Broodlings only spawn upon the killing of a unit or structure.
no?
edit: oh, that was a suggestion of yours, i'm sorry.
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On April 19 2010 19:41 Attica wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 18:30 Chen wrote:
Carriers require:
Pylon
Gateway
Cybernetics Core
Stargates (yes plural, unlike zerg)
Fleet beacon
BC's:
Barracks
Factory
Starports
Tech lab
Fusion core
Armory for upgrades so they can do something.
Plus the build/morph corrupter mechanic is an advantage. A) it takes significantly less time to build at the cost of 1 more click, omg thats soo fucking hard. B)you get a return on your investment much faster plus you automatically get the unit that covers the BL's weakness
Zerg:6 buildings needed
Toss:5 buildings, 6-7 in reality since 1 stargate carriers is just bullshit
Terran: 6, 7-8 for the same reasons as above.
Broodlords are not excessively expensive as compared to the other races top units, yet can't be compared in effectiveness. I like how you counted a Pylon in there as if zerg and terran don't get overlords and supply depots. Let's try this out so you can understand better. m = minerals g= gas t= time ZergSpawning Pool - 200 m 65t Lair- 150m 100g 80t Spire -200m 200g 100t Infestation pit- 100m 100g 50t Hive- 200m 150g 100t Greater Spire- 100m 150g 100t Total Building Cost - 950 m 700g 495tCorruptor- 150m 100g 2food 40t Broodlord- 150m 150g 34t Total Unit Cost- 300m 250g 4 food 74t ProtossGateway- 150m 65t Cyber core- 150m 50t Stargate- 150m 150g 60t Flight beacon- 300m 200g 60t Total Building Cost- 750m 350g 235tCarrier- 350m 250g 6 food 120t TerranBarracks- 150m 60t Tech Lab- 50m 25g 25t Factory- 150m 100g 60t Starport- 150m 100g 50t Fusion Core- 150m 150g 80t Total Building Cost- 650m 375g 275tBattle Cruiser- 400m 300g 6 food 110t It takes twice or almost twice as long to get to broodlords than it does for toss or terran to get to their tier 3 air. One might argue that you could lay your spire while upgrading to Hive but if you want to be realistic no zerg is going to have that much gas lying around to immediately spend unless it's much later in the game. I'd also like to add that zerg tech even slower than those numbers due to the style of the race (fast expo, mass units due to inability to block chokes, etc).
+1
thats the math i was waiting for someone else to do!
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On April 19 2010 19:41 iounas wrote:
Late game units should be powerful but one of the problems is that carrier and cattlebruiser arent at the same level..
Especially carriers since bcs have yamato to 1shot all their air counters from all 3 races and have more armor and hp to deal with GtA attacks from marines, hydras, stalkers.. And good air support raven with point defence.
Its not all about stats either, its how they fit in your army and what counter other races have..
Also ultras have awesome stats but they dont work well..
super emphasis on the bold part
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Rofl, if your opponent has time and resources to tech to broodlords, you've already lost or deserve to lose. It's both ridiculously expensive and time consuming (even compared to other races' high tier units as someone else adequately pointed out).
And no, you can't build a hive and infestation pit at the same time. lol.
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On April 19 2010 20:04 Lollersauce wrote:
Rofl, if your opponent has time and resources to tech to broodlords, you've already lost or deserve to lose. It's both ridiculously expensive and time consuming (even compared to other races' high tier units as someone else adequately pointed out).
So you say if both players have half the map it should be auto-win for Zerg?
Regardless of their cost or tech requirements, end-all units are bad design.
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If you put the same amount of resources into units that are faster than broodlords and don't have to engage them, you can push their bases and win.
Edit: and it's not an auto win, broodlords die rather easily to air, even ground if they're caught in open areas. You definitely have a chance with air when all the corruptors have just morphed, unless you let your opponent get a greater spire which takes about a year to complete without having any air yourself...
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On April 19 2010 19:57 Inori wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 19 2010 19:41 Attica wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 18:30 Chen wrote:
Carriers require:
Pylon
Gateway
Cybernetics Core
Stargates (yes plural, unlike zerg)
Fleet beacon
BC's:
Barracks
Factory
Starports
Tech lab
Fusion core
Armory for upgrades so they can do something.
Plus the build/morph corrupter mechanic is an advantage. A) it takes significantly less time to build at the cost of 1 more click, omg thats soo fucking hard. B)you get a return on your investment much faster plus you automatically get the unit that covers the BL's weakness
Zerg:6 buildings needed
Toss:5 buildings, 6-7 in reality since 1 stargate carriers is just bullshit
Terran: 6, 7-8 for the same reasons as above.
Broodlords are not excessively expensive as compared to the other races top units, yet can't be compared in effectiveness. I like how you counted a Pylon in there as if zerg and terran don't get overlords and supply depots. Let's try this out so you can understand better. m = minerals g= gas t= time ZergSpawning Pool - 200 m 65t Lair- 150m 100g 80t Spire -200m 200g 100t Infestation pit- 100m 100g 50t Hive- 200m 150g 100t Greater Spire- 100m 150g 100t Total Building Cost - 950 m 700g 495tCorruptor- 150m 100g 2food 40t Broodlord- 150m 150g 34t Total Unit Cost- 300m 250g 4 food 74t ProtossGateway- 150m 65t Cyber core- 150m 50t Stargate- 150m 150g 60t Flight beacon- 300m 200g 60t Total Building Cost- 750m 350g 235tCarrier- 350m 250g 6 food 120t TerranBarracks- 150m 60t Tech Lab- 50m 25g 25t Factory- 150m 100g 60t Starport- 150m 100g 50t Fusion Core- 150m 150g 80t Total Building Cost- 650m 375g 275tBattle Cruiser- 400m 300g 6 food 110t It takes twice or almost twice as long to get to broodlords than it does for toss or terran to get to their tier 3 air. One might argue that you could lay your spire while upgrading to Hive but if you want to be realistic no zerg is going to have that much gas lying around to immediately spend unless it's much later in the game. I'd also like to add that zerg tech even slower than those numbers due to the style of the race (fast expo, mass units due to inability to block chokes, etc). You can build Hive, Spire and Infestator Pit at the same time. As you said yourself, Zerg gets a fast expo, so doing this in later game isn't a problem. It's not like protoss or terran can get away with early carrier/bc tech, so it will happen in late-game as well. I'd also like to add that you can build BLs simultaneously, whereas Carriers/BCs is 3 at a time max (+about 20 seconds and 100 mineral for each carrier because of interseptors).
actually iv seen lz do a super fast bc build and he raped shit with it O_O
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Guys, I have the obvious solution.
Make Broodlords shoot banelings that transform into Zerglings after explosion. Now, Broodlords would also function like Reavers. You buy their ammo. Each baneling into Zergling shot would cost 75 minerals and 25 Gas. This will make Zerg think twice before doing anything.
Otherwise I think their fine. Yeah, they are insanely strong, but seriously, I like never get to the point where they actually save me or are useful to me. Everytime I get Broodlords it functions as a finisher where I clearly had won the game but the opponent is being stubborn.
Considering it's new damage, it's incredibly slow speed, and in-capability of shooting air, and it's massive tech requierement and cost, I think it is relatively balanced.
It's similiar to Ravens, if you let a Terran get tons of Ravens you did something wrong, or you should have something to counter it ready.
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On April 19 2010 20:10 NonFactor wrote:
Guys, I have the obvious solution.
Make Broodlords shoot banelings that transform into Zerglings after explosion. Now, Broodlords would also function like Reavers. You buy their ammo. Each baneling into Zergling shot would cost 75 minerals and 25 Gas. This will make Zerg think twice before doing anything.
Otherwise I think their fine. Yeah, they are insanely strong, but seriously, I like never get to the point where they actually save me or are useful to me. Everytime I get Broodlords it functions as a finisher where I clearly had won the game but the opponent is being stubborn.
Considering it's new damage, it's incredibly slow speed, and in-capability of shooting air, and it's massive tech requierement and cost, I think it is relatively balanced.
It's similiar to Ravens, if you let a Terran get tons of Ravens you did something wrong, or you should have something to counter it ready.
nah i think they should shoot banelings and then transform into another broodlord!
but ya i agree, its also like in sc1 in zvt if t builds up too many vessels then the z is pretty much screwed
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On April 19 2010 15:39 Zaphid wrote:
Aren't there some rules for topics like this ?
Anyway, they have weaknesses, mainly the thing that they can't attack top of the tree units like BC and Carriers, which is what they should be compared to. Also, don't forget that if you nerf them too much, there is simply no other go-to unit for zerg beyond mass of hydras/roaches spiced with some other stuff and people are getting sick of that already.
well, Carriers and Battlecruisers just suck at the moment. They are weak for how much they cost and no1 seems to get them because of the gas investment if you count the fact that u must research some upgrades, it's not worth the switch of tech, unless you have alot of resources accumulated, in which case you can win anyways
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Id like to see them be more like carriers in PvT in SC1. something that is really good and takes long to build. and if you have a critical mass its really hard to kill them. but if you scout early there is a viable counter.
also i think an ultralisk buff could make nerfing them more plausible
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Make the AI so units will prioritize attacking other units before broodlings
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I think they should just make it an energy based autocast ability so protoss can feedback it and terran can EMP and it will eventually run out of broodlords if you use it too much in a battle ( blizz could balance out the mana cost/total mana pool of the broodlord as needed).
whoops: several people already mentioned this...
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On April 19 2010 20:35 Orpheos wrote:
Id like to see them be more like carriers in PvT in SC1. something that is really good and takes long to build. and if you have a critical mass its really hard to kill them. but if you scout early there is a viable counter.
also i think an ultralisk buff could make nerfing them more plausible
Lets see: something that is really good(well Broodlords are good no mistaking that) and takes long to build(74 seconds minimum. 40 seconds to spawn a corruptor and then another 34 seconds to morph into broodlord). and if you have a critical mass(roughly 4 or 5) its really hard to kill them(they've got 275hp 2 armor, 20dmg 9 range). but if you scout early(scout the spire turning into greater spire which takes 100 seconds) there is a viable counter(anything air but first and foremost Vikings for T and Stalkers, with blink, for P).
This isn't meant as a dis or anything just found it funny how you basically described the Broodlord in its current state, imho.
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On April 19 2010 19:41 Attica wrote:
this post is FULL of flaws.
First of all, as you already said, zerg can get spire and hivetech at the same time. They can also get corruptors out before the greater spire finishes AND they can morph every brood lord at the same time.
So if you put this into the equation, for 6 tier3 flying units, assuming the toss/terran has two starports/stargates, it takes:
Zerg
time to get 6 Broodlods: 429
Protoss
time to get 6 carriers: 715
Terran
time to get 6 BCs: 615
also, zerg can effectively fight with tier1 units for much much longer than the other races, which means they have plenty of vespine, while terran and protoss need to use their vespine gas for other units in order to be able to compete in the midgame.
And as previously stated, broodlords are the strongest tier3 unit right now and the most difficult one to counter because of their range and the way the mess up the unit AI
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On April 19 2010 19:40 Chen wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 19:18 Adeeler wrote:
So nerf broodlords so that zerg can't engage a terran or protoss ball in any way? I don't agree Broodlords take forever to get to and cost a tonne considering what they do.
Terran have:
Vikings
Thors
Marines
Ravens
Ghosts
Battlecruisers
(6 units)
& Protoss have :
Stalker
Sentry
High Templar
Archon
Pheonix
Void Ray
Carrier
Mothership (8 units)
They can all target air so what is the problem? Before you scream for nerfs try and use those units. Just cos your current ball owns zerg so hard except for broodlord you can't expect a nerf its just ridiculous at this point. Its like saying Zerg can never have a good long range unit even though toss & terran have insane long range units that do splash much earlier in the tech tree.
The only concern I would have as a toss or terran is with Broodling interfering with the Attack AI and taking priority from attacking units, but with the splash in both races I don't see it being a problem anyway.
Ways you can deal with broodlings for terran are hellions and seige tanks or enough of a bio ball to just mince the lings instantly which isn't that big of a ball at all.
For Protoss its a bit more tricky but just having enough stuff is enough to deal with broodlings, colossi, mince them np's.
I just don't think they are as OP as people say they are, if you let the zerg get to the point of getting broodlords you've pretty much given them a hell of a lot of time to get there and you probably should use your many options more effectively. .... do you have beta/ever even SEEN a game of sc2? have you read a single page of this thread? or are you just spouting random bullshit? the fact that you even mention sentries, archons, carriers, motherships, and phoenix as possible counters to BL's is laughable, not to mention ravens(if z is retarded these work) and ghosts. stop doing your bullshit theorycraft if you have no idea what you are talking about. retards like you deserve to be banned.
Yes I have beta and i've watched an insane number of games. Everytime I see broodlords "win" the game for zerg its always cos the opponent gets tunnel vision and forgets broodlords could come out.
The fact I mention all those units is that they are able to hit the broodlords not to mention the broodlings. But do ppl build those in preperation to counter the broodlords that late into the game? No they get tunnel vision and expect there standard balls to win versus everything in the game hands down.
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Brood lords can only fire against ground units Carriers can fire against both ground and air Battle cruisers can fire against both ground and air with a 300 damage nuke spell. Brood lords are fine, the problem is the inability of players to micro.
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I believe the best solution should make "sense", and so I don't like solutions like having units clip through broodlings, applying all armor types to broodlings, or giving broodlords energy. Although those might make for an interesting game, they're still a little "wtf" from a gameplay/lore perspective
One thing that doesn't make sense is why broodlings fly next the the broodlord. Like, wtf are these guys doing bobbing around like balloons next to the guy? This suggests an easy nerf:
* Get rid of the floating broodlings. Have broodlords "spit" a single broodling at a time (no waiting for double damage).
Another easy nerf that makes sense is:
* Allow broodlings to be fired upon as they fly in the air (like interceptors)
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On April 19 2010 20:50 InFiNitY[pG] wrote:this post is FULL of flaws. First of all, as you already said, zerg can get spire and hivetech at the same time. They can also get corruptors out before the greater spire finishes AND they can morph every brood lord at the same time. So if you put this into the equation, for 6 tier3 flying units, assuming the toss/terran has two starports/stargates, it takes: Zergtime to get 6 Broodlods: 429 Protosstime to get 6 carriers: 715 Terrantime to get 6 BCs: 615 also, zerg can effectively fight with tier1 units for much much longer than the other races, which means they have plenty of vespine, while terran and protoss need to use their vespine gas for other units in order to be able to compete in the midgame. And as previously stated, broodlords are the strongest tier3 unit right now and the most difficult one to counter because of their range and the way the mess up the unit AI
those numbers are incredibly subjective -_-
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Replays... we're still waiting
User was warned for this post.
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Eh, from a Terran point of view, Vikings FTW v Brood Lords. Actually, pretty much all of my TvZ games, I *WANT* my Zerg opponent to go Brood Lords since all I do then is grab some Vikings and that is a crapton of resources pretty much instantly wasted for the Zerg. On the ground, preparations consider of just grabbing some Hellions to burn away any Broodlings that do manage to land.
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On April 19 2010 20:57 palanq wrote:
* Allow broodlings to be fired upon as they fly in the air (like interceptors)
units that do no damage are awesome.
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I saw a post recently discussing the fact that Broodlords and Ultralisks are essentially making each other redundant.
I'm a newb so I'm not really in a position to make any relevant comments but this guy did sound on the money basically.
As for BL being too strong, it certainly can be frustrating as a P player but I've read void rays own them so really, my opinion on their strength isn't worth much.
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Comparing Brood lords with banshees ... the other air to ground unit.
They have comparable dps. Brood Lord is slow, tough and has long range, but Banshee is fast and can be invisible (and still outrange hydras, their only ground threat). So they are comparable in their utility.
time to get your first brood lord: ~550s (e.g. only viable in very long macro games)
cost to get to brood lord tech: 950/700 (of which 300/300 are solely for brood lords)
cost per brood lord: 300/250
time to get your first banshee: ~250s (e.g it's viable, and actually done quite often to rush with them, before any anti air can be out)
cost to get to banshee tech: 500/225 (which are all usable for other tech too)
cost per banshee: 150/100
So if you wanna nerf brood lord, you must nerf banshee too. You can't be surprised by brood lords (unless you suck), you can be rushed by banshees.
You can't get map control with brood lords, but with banshees you can, and also destroy bases and harass.
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And it will be more realistic. Now the Brood Lord produces an alive creature every time it attacks without paying anything (resources or energy). Make it cost energy, the same way the queen's spawn larva requires energy.
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On April 19 2010 21:48 imbecile wrote:
Comparing Brood lords with banshees ... the other air to ground unit.
They have comparable dps. Brood Lord is slow, tough and has long range, but Banshee is fast and can be invisible (and still outrange hydras, their only ground threat). So they are comparable in their utility.
time to get your first brood lord: ~550s (e.g. only viable in very long macro games)
cost to get to brood lord tech: 950/700 (of which 300/300 are solely for brood lords)
cost per brood lord: 300/250
time to get your first banshee: ~250s (e.g it's viable, and actually done quite often to rush with them, before any anti air can be out)
cost to get to banshee tech: 500/225 (which are all usable for other tech too)
cost per banshee: 150/100
So if you wanna nerf brood lord, you must nerf banshee too. You can't be surprised by brood lords (unless you suck), you can be rushed by banshees.
You can't get map control with brood lords, but with banshees you can, and also destroy bases and harass.
100% this.
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On April 19 2010 21:49 Nuclear wrote:
And it will be more realistic. Now the Brood Lord produces an alive creature every time it attacks without paying anything (resources or energy). Make it cost energy, the same way the queen's spawn larva requires energy.
Brood lords have broodlings with a very limited life and life span. Carriers have interceptors, that live forever and are repaired after every attack for free and have more hp and shield than quite a few other units, and are ranged (e.g. can forcus fire).
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i would kill for a patch that changed unit target priorities, both so broodlings were low priority, and as were workers.
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On April 19 2010 21:48 imbecile wrote:
So if you wanna nerf brood lord, you must nerf banshee too. You can't be surprised by brood lords (unless you suck), you can be rushed by banshees.
You can't get map control with brood lords, but with banshees you can, and also destroy bases and harass.
I dont think you realize just how powerful spawning a zergling every time the unit attacks is.... Whilst your theorycraft is all well and good, when the people playing this game at the current top tier are all complaining that one unit is overpowered (even people that play that race, which believe me is VERY rare to see), whilst the other is barely discussed with the word 'overpowered' in the same sentence, its obvious the theorycrafting is void.. =\
edit: That being said, i honestly dont see a problem with broodlords at the present in PvZ, not able to comment on TvZ but i imagine starport tech would be readily available and vikings would destroy the bajeezus out of them, whilst still being relatively safe with marines because of their huge range.
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On April 19 2010 22:09 Ftrunkz wrote:
i would kill for a patch that changed unit target priorities, both so broodlings were low priority, and as were workers.
100% true. the same problem with workers repairing thors or planetary fortress.
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On April 19 2010 15:49 Jyvblamo wrote:Make them spawn banelings instead of broodlings. The banelings blow up right away, so no ai-screw-upage. + Show Spoiler +I don't think Broodlords need a nerf, they require a lot of time and resources to get, even motherships come out before them.
This, rofl
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@ Ftrunkz
All I can hear in this complaining is "I don't wanna have to use Air to Air)!" A tech that is already available and fully running by the time Zerg starts his hive which is your 230s advance warning that brood lords are coming.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
Why was this thread left open? There are no replays. It is theorycraft bullshit.
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EPT
