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On April 19 2010 20:35 Orpheos wrote:
Id like to see them be more like carriers in PvT in SC1. something that is really good and takes long to build. and if you have a critical mass its really hard to kill them. but if you scout early there is a viable counter.
also i think an ultralisk buff could make nerfing them more plausible
Lets see: something that is really good(well Broodlords are good no mistaking that) and takes long to build(74 seconds minimum. 40 seconds to spawn a corruptor and then another 34 seconds to morph into broodlord). and if you have a critical mass(roughly 4 or 5) its really hard to kill them(they've got 275hp 2 armor, 20dmg 9 range). but if you scout early(scout the spire turning into greater spire which takes 100 seconds) there is a viable counter(anything air but first and foremost Vikings for T and Stalkers, with blink, for P).
This isn't meant as a dis or anything just found it funny how you basically described the Broodlord in its current state, imho.
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On April 19 2010 19:41 Attica wrote:
this post is FULL of flaws.
First of all, as you already said, zerg can get spire and hivetech at the same time. They can also get corruptors out before the greater spire finishes AND they can morph every brood lord at the same time.
So if you put this into the equation, for 6 tier3 flying units, assuming the toss/terran has two starports/stargates, it takes:
Zerg
time to get 6 Broodlods: 429
Protoss
time to get 6 carriers: 715
Terran
time to get 6 BCs: 615
also, zerg can effectively fight with tier1 units for much much longer than the other races, which means they have plenty of vespine, while terran and protoss need to use their vespine gas for other units in order to be able to compete in the midgame.
And as previously stated, broodlords are the strongest tier3 unit right now and the most difficult one to counter because of their range and the way the mess up the unit AI
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On April 19 2010 19:40 Chen wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 19:18 Adeeler wrote:
So nerf broodlords so that zerg can't engage a terran or protoss ball in any way? I don't agree Broodlords take forever to get to and cost a tonne considering what they do.
Terran have:
Vikings
Thors
Marines
Ravens
Ghosts
Battlecruisers
(6 units)
& Protoss have :
Stalker
Sentry
High Templar
Archon
Pheonix
Void Ray
Carrier
Mothership (8 units)
They can all target air so what is the problem? Before you scream for nerfs try and use those units. Just cos your current ball owns zerg so hard except for broodlord you can't expect a nerf its just ridiculous at this point. Its like saying Zerg can never have a good long range unit even though toss & terran have insane long range units that do splash much earlier in the tech tree.
The only concern I would have as a toss or terran is with Broodling interfering with the Attack AI and taking priority from attacking units, but with the splash in both races I don't see it being a problem anyway.
Ways you can deal with broodlings for terran are hellions and seige tanks or enough of a bio ball to just mince the lings instantly which isn't that big of a ball at all.
For Protoss its a bit more tricky but just having enough stuff is enough to deal with broodlings, colossi, mince them np's.
I just don't think they are as OP as people say they are, if you let the zerg get to the point of getting broodlords you've pretty much given them a hell of a lot of time to get there and you probably should use your many options more effectively. .... do you have beta/ever even SEEN a game of sc2? have you read a single page of this thread? or are you just spouting random bullshit? the fact that you even mention sentries, archons, carriers, motherships, and phoenix as possible counters to BL's is laughable, not to mention ravens(if z is retarded these work) and ghosts. stop doing your bullshit theorycraft if you have no idea what you are talking about. retards like you deserve to be banned.
Yes I have beta and i've watched an insane number of games. Everytime I see broodlords "win" the game for zerg its always cos the opponent gets tunnel vision and forgets broodlords could come out.
The fact I mention all those units is that they are able to hit the broodlords not to mention the broodlings. But do ppl build those in preperation to counter the broodlords that late into the game? No they get tunnel vision and expect there standard balls to win versus everything in the game hands down.
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Brood lords can only fire against ground units Carriers can fire against both ground and air Battle cruisers can fire against both ground and air with a 300 damage nuke spell. Brood lords are fine, the problem is the inability of players to micro.
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I believe the best solution should make "sense", and so I don't like solutions like having units clip through broodlings, applying all armor types to broodlings, or giving broodlords energy. Although those might make for an interesting game, they're still a little "wtf" from a gameplay/lore perspective
One thing that doesn't make sense is why broodlings fly next the the broodlord. Like, wtf are these guys doing bobbing around like balloons next to the guy? This suggests an easy nerf:
* Get rid of the floating broodlings. Have broodlords "spit" a single broodling at a time (no waiting for double damage).
Another easy nerf that makes sense is:
* Allow broodlings to be fired upon as they fly in the air (like interceptors)
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On April 19 2010 20:50 InFiNitY[pG] wrote:this post is FULL of flaws. First of all, as you already said, zerg can get spire and hivetech at the same time. They can also get corruptors out before the greater spire finishes AND they can morph every brood lord at the same time. So if you put this into the equation, for 6 tier3 flying units, assuming the toss/terran has two starports/stargates, it takes: Zergtime to get 6 Broodlods: 429 Protosstime to get 6 carriers: 715 Terrantime to get 6 BCs: 615 also, zerg can effectively fight with tier1 units for much much longer than the other races, which means they have plenty of vespine, while terran and protoss need to use their vespine gas for other units in order to be able to compete in the midgame. And as previously stated, broodlords are the strongest tier3 unit right now and the most difficult one to counter because of their range and the way the mess up the unit AI
those numbers are incredibly subjective -_-
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Replays... we're still waiting 
User was warned for this post.
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Eh, from a Terran point of view, Vikings FTW v Brood Lords. Actually, pretty much all of my TvZ games, I *WANT* my Zerg opponent to go Brood Lords since all I do then is grab some Vikings and that is a crapton of resources pretty much instantly wasted for the Zerg. On the ground, preparations consider of just grabbing some Hellions to burn away any Broodlings that do manage to land.
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On April 19 2010 20:57 palanq wrote:
* Allow broodlings to be fired upon as they fly in the air (like interceptors)
units that do no damage are awesome.
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I saw a post recently discussing the fact that Broodlords and Ultralisks are essentially making each other redundant.
I'm a newb so I'm not really in a position to make any relevant comments but this guy did sound on the money basically.
As for BL being too strong, it certainly can be frustrating as a P player but I've read void rays own them so really, my opinion on their strength isn't worth much.
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Comparing Brood lords with banshees ... the other air to ground unit.
They have comparable dps. Brood Lord is slow, tough and has long range, but Banshee is fast and can be invisible (and still outrange hydras, their only ground threat). So they are comparable in their utility.
time to get your first brood lord: ~550s (e.g. only viable in very long macro games)
cost to get to brood lord tech: 950/700 (of which 300/300 are solely for brood lords)
cost per brood lord: 300/250
time to get your first banshee: ~250s (e.g it's viable, and actually done quite often to rush with them, before any anti air can be out)
cost to get to banshee tech: 500/225 (which are all usable for other tech too)
cost per banshee: 150/100
So if you wanna nerf brood lord, you must nerf banshee too. You can't be surprised by brood lords (unless you suck), you can be rushed by banshees.
You can't get map control with brood lords, but with banshees you can, and also destroy bases and harass.
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And it will be more realistic. Now the Brood Lord produces an alive creature every time it attacks without paying anything (resources or energy). Make it cost energy, the same way the queen's spawn larva requires energy.
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On April 19 2010 21:48 imbecile wrote:
Comparing Brood lords with banshees ... the other air to ground unit.
They have comparable dps. Brood Lord is slow, tough and has long range, but Banshee is fast and can be invisible (and still outrange hydras, their only ground threat). So they are comparable in their utility.
time to get your first brood lord: ~550s (e.g. only viable in very long macro games)
cost to get to brood lord tech: 950/700 (of which 300/300 are solely for brood lords)
cost per brood lord: 300/250
time to get your first banshee: ~250s (e.g it's viable, and actually done quite often to rush with them, before any anti air can be out)
cost to get to banshee tech: 500/225 (which are all usable for other tech too)
cost per banshee: 150/100
So if you wanna nerf brood lord, you must nerf banshee too. You can't be surprised by brood lords (unless you suck), you can be rushed by banshees.
You can't get map control with brood lords, but with banshees you can, and also destroy bases and harass.
100% this.
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On April 19 2010 21:49 Nuclear wrote:
And it will be more realistic. Now the Brood Lord produces an alive creature every time it attacks without paying anything (resources or energy). Make it cost energy, the same way the queen's spawn larva requires energy.
Brood lords have broodlings with a very limited life and life span. Carriers have interceptors, that live forever and are repaired after every attack for free and have more hp and shield than quite a few other units, and are ranged (e.g. can forcus fire).
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i would kill for a patch that changed unit target priorities, both so broodlings were low priority, and as were workers.
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On April 19 2010 21:48 imbecile wrote:
So if you wanna nerf brood lord, you must nerf banshee too. You can't be surprised by brood lords (unless you suck), you can be rushed by banshees.
You can't get map control with brood lords, but with banshees you can, and also destroy bases and harass.
I dont think you realize just how powerful spawning a zergling every time the unit attacks is.... Whilst your theorycraft is all well and good, when the people playing this game at the current top tier are all complaining that one unit is overpowered (even people that play that race, which believe me is VERY rare to see), whilst the other is barely discussed with the word 'overpowered' in the same sentence, its obvious the theorycrafting is void.. =\
edit: That being said, i honestly dont see a problem with broodlords at the present in PvZ, not able to comment on TvZ but i imagine starport tech would be readily available and vikings would destroy the bajeezus out of them, whilst still being relatively safe with marines because of their huge range.
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On April 19 2010 22:09 Ftrunkz wrote:
i would kill for a patch that changed unit target priorities, both so broodlings were low priority, and as were workers.
100% true. the same problem with workers repairing thors or planetary fortress.
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On April 19 2010 15:49 Jyvblamo wrote:Make them spawn banelings instead of broodlings. The banelings blow up right away, so no ai-screw-upage. + Show Spoiler +I don't think Broodlords need a nerf, they require a lot of time and resources to get, even motherships come out before them.
This, rofl
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@ Ftrunkz
All I can hear in this complaining is "I don't wanna have to use Air to Air)!" A tech that is already available and fully running by the time Zerg starts his hive which is your 230s advance warning that brood lords are coming.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
Why was this thread left open? There are no replays. It is theorycraft bullshit.
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EPT
