EPT[D] Let us meld our minds for BroodLords - Page 3
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trueg0x
South Africa86 Posts
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
I personally think that the best way to nerf the broodlord is to just lower damage output of broodlings. It already only deals 4(+1) damage per attack, but perhaps lower its attack speed from "fast" to "normal." Also, nerfing broodling hp to 15 or even 20 would greatly help. Currently, unupgraded zealots require 2 hits to kill a broodling. Making broodling hp 15 would lower it so that zealots can kill it in 1 hit. Terran has the worse time dealing with broodlings; marines take 5 hits and Marauder needs 3 hits. Although arguably it's less detrimental to Terran as it doesn't screw with their AI as much due to Terran not being melee. @trueg0x: You can't compare BLs to Immortals in that they weren't designed as a "hard counter" unit to anything. Immortals clearly have the role as anti-armored but they absolutely die to mass T1 and are not as cost-effective against T1. Broodlords pretty much rape anything ground based. They are, in essence, Zerg's ultimate "screw you" unit. Terran and Protoss both have a "screw you" unit in the Battlecruiser, Carrier, and Mothership but the effectiveness of those three units simply just pale in comparison to what the BL can do. | ||
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GoDannY
Germany442 Posts
I would suggest the broodling count should be somewhat limited, either by output per shot (-1 for instance) or by a max ammount per broodlord (dunno 6-8 may be) at the same time (like carriers). Furthermore, slightly decrease their health so it takes one shot less to kill them (someone mentioned the vikings in this thread), so like -10 HP or sth... | ||
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Chairman Ray
United States11903 Posts
Broolords should not be able to shoot two shots at once for their first attack. That's an extra bonus that opens up no additional lines of strategy and the opponent will do nothing different because of it. When protoss gets stalkers to deal with the broodlords, broodlords should get the first attack due to their long range, but they should not be able to kill several stalkers before they even get to attack. This is the most sensible nerf and may or may not fix broodlords, but it will at least make them realistic. One thing we can do is make broodlord shots cost 10 minerals each. That way you can mass up as many broodlords as you did before, and they would be just as effective in battles. The difference is that during a battle, you will have to pay for their shots, so you can't mass hydras or corrupters while you are fighting. T'hat way, protoss has a slightly easier time taking on broodlords since there are less hydras and corrupters to counter everything you're throwing at the broodlords, and secondly, there is a consequence for using broodlords in that if you lose the battle and all your broodlords die, you don't have another huge army ready immediately. The last thing I could think of is to lower their HP to 250. No supporting evidence behind this, 250 just seems like a really nice number. 275 is a bit random. | ||
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Johoseph
United States49 Posts
Although by the time BLs came out thors could be pretty heavily upgraded. Maybe if they balance Terran mech vs. light ground units it'll almost provide a small fix itself. | ||
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Chen
United States6344 Posts
On April 19 2010 15:38 onmach wrote: If people keep complaining, blizzard is going to nerf them. As it stand they only appear in maybe 1 out of 15 games. If you strip them of 100 hp, or remove broodlings, or make them even more expensive, they'll be used in 0 out of 15. And that would be a real shame. LOL? you must be watching different games or taking into account games where a zerg doesnt play. the only time broodlords arnt used is basically when it doesnt get to late-game. I have never seen a competent zerg player in late-game not get or at least try to get broodlords. On April 19 2010 16:12 Na_Dann_Ma_GoGo wrote: Jesus Christ. Aren't there new forum rules that require you to post 8 Platin replays? DO SO NOW! I think this thread gets a pass in that regard since its common knowledge that broodlords are extremely powerful and it only takes a few to drastically change the flow of a game. On April 19 2010 16:35 Johoseph wrote: Do Thors do absolutely nothing against BLs or something? Honest question as I don't really know. But Thors outrange BLs, only thing I might see is that they don't do enough damage to them or something. Thors DPS vs broodlords sucks cause lords arn't light and splash doesnt work too well since they are so huge. plus thors will usually waste shots on the broodlings, which they can't kill faster than they spawned. pretty sure 1 broodlord rapes 1 thor handily | ||
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Funchucks
Canada2113 Posts
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Artisan
United States336 Posts
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c.Deadly
United States545 Posts
That being said, I think it's fair that an expensive late-tier unit has huge DPS and high HP. I don't think a massive nerf or re-working of the Brood Lord is especially necessary, but there is one huge problem I see with them and that is their base armor. Zerg players can just morph 4-6 Brood Lords and transform a near-maxed army from formidable to unstoppable. The most basic "grunt" units that comprise the majority of the other player's near-maxed army don't do nearly enough damage to feasibly pick off Brood Lords (Hydras, Marines, Stalkers even with blink micro). Other late-game army staples, such as HSM or Psi Storm, hardly phase Brood Lords because of their high HP. So, the only way to win against Brood Lords is to get the units that specifically counter Brood Lords, either Vikings, Void Rays, or a huge number of Stalkers. Well that's simple enough, right? Not in a typical late-game scenario when Brood Lords become part of a Zerg army. When moving into the late-game, resources begin to dwindle and much of the focus of the players turns towards harassing new expos and taking map control. There really is no vespene gas left to expend on Vikings after getting Siege Tanks/Ravens for Terran, and likewise the tech switch to Starport for Void Rays or even just getting 20+ Stalkers is too gas-intensive for a Protoss player with Colossi and High Templar. So, the answer I see being most effective is lowering Brood Lord base armor from 2 -> 1, leaving the HP, range, and damage unchanged. Maybe change the broodling mechanic so they don't shoot two at once. This would allow lower-tier units the ability to kill Brood Lords before their own army gets decimated. | ||
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prosky
Poland83 Posts
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ooni
Australia1498 Posts
Compare that with BC which takes 110 seconds to build and can only produce one BC per starport. Same with Carriers but longer and chronoboost consuming. Carriers still take longer even it's chronoboosted from start to finish. | ||
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Na_Dann_Ma_GoGo
Germany2959 Posts
On April 19 2010 16:36 Chen wrote: I think this thread gets a pass in that regard since its common knowledge that broodlords are extremely powerful and it only takes a few to drastically change the flow of a game. Oh yeah? So where's the problem showing that with some Platinum replays hm? Because I've never had a game and have never seen one where Broodlords are the game breaking factor. Maybe noobs get totally screwed by the AI but on higher level I don't see any problems facing Broodlords. So just follow the god damn rules and post at least some replays. | ||
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goszar
Belarus119 Posts
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On April 19 2010 16:36 Chen wrote: Also, this thread was started by someone with a pretty nice post count and I'm pretty sure we can rest assured that it's not going to be a trash thread.I think this thread gets a pass in that regard since its common knowledge that broodlords are extremely powerful and it only takes a few to drastically change the flow of a game. On April 19 2010 16:36 Chen wrote: Thors DPS vs broodlords sucks cause lords arn't light and splash doesnt work too well since they are so huge. plus thors will usually waste shots on the broodlings, which they can't kill faster than they spawned. pretty sure 1 broodlord rapes 1 thor handily Also want to add that BL comes with 2 armor default so Thors only do (8-2)*4 = 24 damage per shot. BLs do (20-1)= 19 damage per shot, while the Broodling will do (4-1)= 3 damage per hit. I'm not sure how many times a broodling will hit during it's lifespan but all it needs to do is to hit at least twice per life span and the BL will out-damage a Thor. That said, a straight up 1v1 Thor v. BL battle will be in the favor of the Thor due to the Thor's massive 400 hp but the Thor is still not ideal counter for them. | ||
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trueg0x
South Africa86 Posts
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Na_Dann_Ma_GoGo
Germany2959 Posts
Hopefully the OPs creating threads now following the rules will get banned :0 Edit: Though maybe not this one, as he got indeed a lot posts and activity I suppose. Yet this thread should be closed unless replays are posted. | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On April 19 2010 16:45 trueg0x wrote: @Ryuu314: yea i see what you mean, i agree with you 100%. the fact of the matter is, that atm zerg have nothing other than massing tier 1 -> 2 units. there is no 'punch unit' to work towards such as collosis, immortals, thors, etc. making zerg feel kind of directionless. as a result i think that blizzard thought that it could fill these holes by making an answer to all of zergs problems in one unit, like you said, a screw you unit. some evidence to this is just how friggen hard it is to get BL's. you need to tech to tier 3, then upgrade spire, then build corrupter then upgrade corrupter. jesus christ, after all that you deserve a screw you unit! really that is all that zerg has late game. zerg plays out as follows: expand -> mass tier 1 -> mass tier 1.5 -> mass tier 2 -> repeat (try to tech)- > repeat (try to tech) - > repeat (try to tech) -> FINALLY get BL's. all the other races have inbetween units that have a place and a function during the tech to tier 3. i guess my point is that zerg have had all of their late game functions rolled into one unit. but hey, maybe thats how bliz want them to be... While I agree with what you said, the fact of the matter is that BLs are just simply too effective. Maybe Zerg's other T1/2 units need buffing, I don't know and that's not the point of this thread. But even after all the teching, it's really hard to argue that BLs don't essentially end up paying for themselves. Especially in PvZ. Protoss has a very hard time dealing with Zerg air already. Adding BLs to a well-mixed Zerg army is just brutal. The only reliable Protoss counter to BL are blink stalkers, but they will get raped by pretty much every other ground unit in the Zerg's arsenal and a good Zerg will never let his BLs get caught out in the open without ground support (usually hydras). @Na_dann_ma_gogo: The power of the BL relies not only in their high dps, but also their ability to screw AI. BLs basically make all melee units useless as the auto-surround on the broodlings will keep them from moving forward to attack the Zerg's ground army. Also, I'm sure many Terran players have experienced their Tanks killing their own army when a BL fires a broodling and the tank auto-aquires the broodlings as a target. Boom, x number of marines dead, not from the BL, but from friendly fire due to Tanks auto-aquiring the broodling as a target. Also I'm pretty sure a BL can kill a stalker in less than 8 hits. You can't neglect the broodling's damage output. 4 damage done at a "fast" speed is pretty good damage. | ||
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Johoseph
United States49 Posts
Oh and I guess it's ok for a tier 1.5 protoss unit to completely screw your ground unit formations and pathing, but something that costs like 15x as much as that unit....... BLASPHEMY | ||
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gaizka
United States991 Posts
The weakness I think they have is their speed. Makes my army go very slowly. Maybe I should use them differently. | ||
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HeyheyLBJ
Sweden160 Posts
Whenever they're made easier to get (like when they're morphed from mutas) I'd propose something like giving them an energy bar and make each broodling shot cost a small amount of energy. As it is now, they are the sole reason the Hive is even a building, so it would be kinda hilarious if they were nerfed. | ||
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