EPT[D] Let us meld our minds for BroodLords - Page 4
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trueg0x
South Africa86 Posts
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mOnion
United States5657 Posts
On April 19 2010 16:12 Na_Dann_Ma_GoGo wrote: Jesus Christ. Aren't there new forum rules that require you to post 8 Platin replays? DO SO NOW! charlie's a resident poster with 20k posts. just something to consider before telling people what to do ^_^ besides this is a WIDELY accepted imbalance i'm really digging this zero collision idea. it should either be the only nerf, or should come paired with an HP/armor nerf. not sure if the armor/hp thing would be overkill or not though.. Also, this thread was started by someone with a pretty nice post count and I'm pretty sure we can rest assured that it's not going to be a trash thread. lol this is only funny because its charlie ^___^ | ||
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Chairman Ray
United States11903 Posts
On April 19 2010 16:43 goszar wrote: Please provide 8 Platinum replays showing that Broodlords are imba. Personally, I haven't seen one. I don't understand why this thread is not closed and OP is not banned. The rule was made so that we don't get a large influx of posts regarding unsupported imbalance when most of those people didn't bother finding a solution themselves. This topic does not infringe upon that. Team Liquid staff has a reputation of upholding rules for their purpose rather than for the rules themselves in order to maintain a high quality community. The broodlord balance issue is something that the entire community is well aware about, and does not require 8 replays to make people aware of its existence. This thread is a discussion regarding how to fix broodlords, and not to make people aware of the issue. | ||
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BladeRunner
United States407 Posts
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Chen
United States6344 Posts
On April 19 2010 16:45 Ryuu314 wrote: Also, this thread was started by someone with a pretty nice post count and I'm pretty sure we can rest assured that it's not going to be a trash thread. Also want to add that BL comes with 2 armor default so Thors only do (8-2)*4 = 24 damage per shot. BLs do (20-1)= 19 damage per shot, while the Broodling will do (4-1)= 3 damage per hit. I'm not sure how many times a broodling will hit during it's lifespan but all it needs to do is to hit at least twice per life span and the BL will out-damage a Thor. That said, a straight up 1v1 Thor v. BL battle will be in the favor of the Thor due to the Thor's massive 400 hp but the Thor is still not ideal counter for them. someone did the math and broodlings attack 10 times before they time out. 1v1 broodlord destroys thor cause you have like 5-10 broodlings constantly chipping away at it On April 19 2010 16:45 trueg0x wrote: @Ryuu314: yea i see what you mean, i agree with you 100%. the fact of the matter is, that atm zerg have nothing other than massing tier 1 -> 2 units. there is no 'punch unit' to work towards such as collosis, immortals, thors, etc. making zerg feel kind of directionless. as a result i think that blizzard thought that it could fill these holes by making an answer to all of zergs problems in one unit, like you said, a screw you unit. some evidence to this is just how friggen hard it is to get BL's. you need to tech to tier 3, then upgrade spire, then build corrupter then upgrade corrupter. jesus christ, after all that you deserve a screw you unit! really that is all that zerg has late game. zerg plays out as follows: expand -> mass tier 1 -> mass tier 1.5 -> mass tier 2 -> repeat (try to tech)- > repeat (try to tech) - > repeat (try to tech) -> FINALLY get BL's. all the other races have inbetween units that have a place and a function during the tech to tier 3. i guess my point is that zerg have had all of their late game functions rolled into one unit. but hey, maybe thats how bliz want them to be... Why do people keep citing tech requirements for keeping them OP? Carriers/BC/Mothership arn't nearly as strong and require arguably MORE tech investment since the tech tree that they come from isnt usually touched in normal play (BC less so than Toss heavy air) they should be strong, but 5 of them should not auto-win you a game Zerg will very often already have a spire (muta harass/corrupter's vs Colossi), Infestation pit for infestors vs terran, and eventually hive for ups. It's not like you need more production facilities or a drastic input of resources to get to BL's. Plus you cite the need to morph stuff, well guess what the combined time for making a corrupter then a broodlord is not more than it takes to make a carrier/BC. that is an ADVANTAGE, since you get an intermediate unit that makes your investment return yields much faster and gives you more flexibility while the other races just sink their money and wait for the unit to pop out. | ||
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Novembermike
United States102 Posts
Pretty much every unit in this game has multiple soft counters that you can use except for Broodlords, and pretty much the only reason they do this is because 3-5 can produce enough broodlings to stop up an entire army. It isn't like their DPS is overpowered or they are legitimately too hard to kill from a health/armor standpoint it's just that they and their broodlings act like a 2 unit combo all in one. | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On April 19 2010 16:50 Johoseph wrote: I'm still confused by this thread. All we're talking about is how ground units get screwed over by this high high high tier 3 air to GROUND unit. I mean, why aren't we talking about harassing them with your own air units? I would think things like vikings and voidrays(maybe?) would pose a threat to them. Hell even if you have to sacrifice a few of your air units, it would almost be worth it, BLs are by no means easy to get. Oh and I guess it's ok for a tier 1.5 protoss unit to completely screw your ground unit formations and pathing, but something that costs like 15x as much as that unit....... BLASPHEMY Force field doesn't do damage over time and it cost energy. At most, a sentry will cast 4 force fields. A BL can shoot forever and ever and broodlings do good damage. And for the record, BLs are not the most expensive unit in the game for everyone who's screaming that (Heyhey). Carriers cost 550/300 (more minerals) and the Mothership costs 400/400 (more gas). Additionally, you're completely retarded if you think coruptors are useless. They are very good AA units (in PvZ I can't speak for TvZ as I don't play that matchup) and also act as a very solid counter against Colossi. It's not uncommon for a Zerg to have some Corruptors lying around for earlier anti-Colossi measures or even just simple air superiority (they're pretty good against Phoenix and passable against Void Rays.) | ||
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trueg0x
South Africa86 Posts
I would say, lower BL armour, make them shoot out one bloodling at a time, make broodlings have 0 clipping. | ||
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WorkersOfTheWorld
United States619 Posts
Could always give them energy and make them vulnerable to EMP/feedback. =x | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On April 19 2010 16:57 Chen wrote: someone did the math and broodlings attack 10 times before they time out. 1v1 broodlord destroys thor cause you have like 5-10 broodlings constantly chipping away at it Holy shit...that's a lot of attacks. I never expected it to be that high, lol. So essentially the BL dps per hit is 20+(4*10) = 60. O_O That out-damages an Immortal with bonus added... | ||
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HeyheyLBJ
Sweden160 Posts
On April 19 2010 17:00 Ryuu314 wrote: And for the record, BLs are not the most expensive unit in the game for everyone who's screaming that (Heyhey). Carriers cost 550/300 (more minerals) and the Mothership costs 400/400 (more gas). Additionally, you're completely retarded if you think coruptors are useless. They are very good AA units (in PvZ I can't speak for TvZ as I don't play that matchup) and also act as a very solid counter against Colossi. It's not uncommon for a Zerg to have some Corruptors lying around for earlier anti-Colossi measures or even just simple air superiority (they're pretty good against Phoenix and passable against Void Rays.) Yeah, while Carriers don't cost 550/300 even with interceptors they are arguably more expensive than Brood Lords if you count the intercetptor cost. Battlecruisers are too. My mistake. Still I stand by that they are BY FAR the hardest unit to get in a real game. | ||
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lowlypawn
United States241 Posts
The consensus seems to be the main issue is the broodlings is how it screws up the AI. Wasn’t one of the main bitches about SC2 was the AI was too good? It was TOO easy to attack, surround units and that every player will now be able to focus on macro? Aren’t Broodlords big and slow? Can’t you just focus fire them and ignore the broodlings? Can’t you simply run away ground units that can’t attack air? Can’t you simply mass Air to Air units and take them out? It seems with the proper units and a little bit of micro they should be fairly easy to counter? Now we have a unit that forces the other player to micro and suddenly it’s called “imbalords”… Broodlords reminds me of Chimaeras in WC3. Yes they are powerful but they are also easy to counter if you see them coming. | ||
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[Agony]x90
United States853 Posts
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yomi
United States773 Posts
Also the broodlings should be an upgrade, and they just shoot a normal projectile until researched. They would not have the double damage on first attack until this was researched. Or just put the double damage on first attack as a researchable upgrade. | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On April 19 2010 17:08 HeyheyLBJ wrote: Yeah, while Carriers don't cost 550/300 even with interceptors they are arguably more expensive than Brood Lords if you count the intercetptor cost. Battlecruisers are too. My mistake. Still I stand by that they are BY FAR the hardest unit to get in a real game. 8 interceptors at 25 minerals each is 200. They cost 350/300 regularly. Hence 550/300 and often you'll have to rebuild interceptors constantly as hydralisk are very good at killing them. Every single late game PvZ I've played had BLs in it. I was previously rank1 gold and got promoted so now I'm top 30 platinum. It's not just in iunno, non-real games or low-ranked games where they appear. I don't auto-lose every time the Zerg gets them, but the amount of damage they do is just incredibly disproportionate. The difficulty of getting them is incredibly overstated. Corruptors are pretty common in PvZ as a very good counter to not only colossi but protoss air in general. Furthermore, getting a hive and later, a greater spire, is not uncommon either. Infestation pits are very common as infestors are still very useful with their fungal growth ability even after the neural parasite nerf. Morphing a Hive and Greater Spire is an additional 250/350 in resource cost. That's not that expensive at all. Yes, it takes time for those buildings to morph, but it's not like Zerg production is completely stopped or anything during the building upgrade time. | ||
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Chairman Ray
United States11903 Posts
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Johoseph
United States49 Posts
On April 19 2010 17:09 lowlypawn wrote: First off let me say that I don’t have a beta key (I think Blizzard hates me) so I could be way off on my observations but I have been keeping up with SC2 and watching a lot of Youtube videos. So with that said. The consensus seems to be the main issue is the broodlings is how it screws up the AI. Wasn’t one of the main bitches about SC2 was the AI was too good? It was TOO easy to attack, surround units and that every player will now be able to focus on macro? Aren’t Broodlords big and slow? Can’t you just focus fire them and ignore the broodlings? Can’t you simply run away ground units that can’t attack air? Can’t you simply mass Air to Air units and take them out? It seems with the proper units and a little bit of micro they should be fairly easy to counter? Now we have a unit that forces the other player to micro and suddenly it’s called “imbalords”… Broodlords reminds me of Chimaeras in WC3. Yes they are powerful but they are also easy to counter if you see them coming. Shhh. Stop talking about air units. Lets just keep talking about how ground units die to them, it keeps the "nerf BLs" argument stronger! Furthermore, getting a hive and later, a greater spire, is not uncommon either. What? The ONLY reason people get those are for BLs... You act like that's a natural tech for Zerg players. It's not like we just make those buildings for shits and giggles, then say "Weellllll, since I'm here I might as well make BLs". Those are pretty much exclusively for BLs. | ||
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Novembermike
United States102 Posts
On April 19 2010 17:09 lowlypawn wrote: First off let me say that I don’t have a beta key (I think Blizzard hates me) so I could be way off on my observations but I have been keeping up with SC2 and watching a lot of Youtube videos. So with that said. The consensus seems to be the main issue is the broodlings is how it screws up the AI. Wasn’t one of the main bitches about SC2 was the AI was too good? It was TOO easy to attack, surround units and that every player will now be able to focus on macro? Aren’t Broodlords big and slow? Can’t you just focus fire them and ignore the broodlings? Can’t you simply run away ground units that can’t attack air? Can’t you simply mass Air to Air units and take them out? It seems with the proper units and a little bit of micro they should be fairly easy to counter? Now we have a unit that forces the other player to micro and suddenly it’s called “imbalords”… Broodlords reminds me of Chimaeras in WC3. Yes they are powerful but they are also easy to counter if you see them coming. The problem is that the ground based AA just isn't going to reach them. Stalkers can blink, which works, but marines or hydras just aren't going to reach them within a reasonable time frame (possibly never). If 5 broodlords catch 50 marines in a fairly narrow region, like the choke to a base, it is entirely possible for the broodlords to never get hit because the broodlings will block movement for the entire front line and will be replenished as fast as they die. Basically you can click on the broodlord and never get to it or attack the broodlings and never get past them. I've had them stop two players who were both going tier 1 units that shoot up exclusively. | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On April 19 2010 17:15 Chairman Ray wrote: Has anyone tried stalkers + 2-3 colossi against broodlords? Use colossi to constantly deplete broodlings and stalkers to kill. If every broodling can only get off 1-2 attacks at most, the dps of broodlords wouldn't be so high. Broodlords cannot attack colossi because of distance so you wouldn't have to worry about colossi dying. The perfect complement to broodlords is hydras since hydras counter anything Protoss can throw at broodlords, and colossi counter hydras. Generally, I counter BL+hydra with blink stalkers, sentries, and colossi. It works pretty well, but the only problem is that your colossi can't focus the hydras when they're trying to kill off all the broodlings. Also, you have to blink your stalkers pretty much right into the hydras in order to focus fire the broodlords. A good zerg will just move away with his broodlords while laughing at your stalkers getting raped by his hydras. I can't speak for Terran, but Protoss AA is simply not that effective against BLs. Phoenix do ridiculously little damage to them (5-2)*2 = 6 damage per shot. Void rays would work but hydras, which is the usual complement to broodlords just rape hydras very easily and quickly. In addition, Void Rays are pretty expensive so to get a good number number of them to act as a reasonable counter will seriously deplete your ground army. | ||
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Chen
United States6344 Posts
On April 19 2010 17:09 lowlypawn wrote: First off let me say that I don’t have a beta key (I think Blizzard hates me) so I could be way off on my observations but I have been keeping up with SC2 and watching a lot of Youtube videos. So with that said. The consensus seems to be the main issue is the broodlings is how it screws up the AI. Wasn’t one of the main bitches about SC2 was the AI was too good? It was TOO easy to attack, surround units and that every player will now be able to focus on macro? Aren’t Broodlords big and slow? Can’t you just focus fire them and ignore the broodlings? Can’t you simply run away ground units that can’t attack air? Can’t you simply mass Air to Air units and take them out? It seems with the proper units and a little bit of micro they should be fairly easy to counter? Now we have a unit that forces the other player to micro and suddenly it’s called “imbalords”… Broodlords reminds me of Chimaeras in WC3. Yes they are powerful but they are also easy to counter if you see them coming. this is the problem. you can't walk through the broodlings so you cant get in range of the broodlords to focus them. Broodlords are made from corrupter's, a very good AA unit. while terran can feasibly use vikings to counter toss cant, cause corrupter's shit on every air unit the toss has, plus the toss has to make a MAJOR investment to get air, and usually will be unable to mass a decent force to fight effectively. People redesign their entire army composition to counter 5 broodlords and still lose. it is definitely not "easy to counter" and most people assume its coming when it gets really late-game It has been said many times, people without Beta experience should not comment on the game or watch what they say. many high level platinum players who go very far in tournaments are having extreme troubles, for you to say just micro and it'll all work is extremely arrogant and naive, not to mention insulting. | ||
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