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The balance whining is starting to get out of hand. TL has always had a "zero tolerance" policy when it comes to addressing balance whine. Please be wary of what you post because we will be handing out mod actions now. |
On September 08 2018 19:53 darktreb wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2018 19:39 Cryoc wrote:On September 08 2018 19:27 Motivate wrote:On September 08 2018 19:19 RKC wrote:
No one is saying that Terran is overwhelmingly OP (eg 90% stronger than other races).
Surely in an asymmetrical game, it is less plausible that the matchup between both sides is perfectly 50-50 balanced.
Top Terrans are slightly favoured against top Zergs in most maps (eg 52-55%) - is that an unreasonable assumption given the entire history of BW? Anyway, the discussion was about why that such assumption may be true (eg flexibility of builds). If you don't agree with the assumption, then no need to be bitchy about it. I find it is a very hard match up, yes. There are LOTS of ways for the Zerg to die from simple mistakes. As is the case with TvP or PvZ which are both very difficult for Terran and Protoss respectively (although I note on the previous page you say that Terran has a bag of builds vs protoss which I disagree with). However, a knee jerk response that Terran is overpowered isn't correct either. You don't see people complaining that Protoss is overpowered whenever they beat Terran? Last ASL, Protoss had maps (Third World) where they could abuse both carriers and arbiters. The majority of people play Protoss, so no surprise there. The interesting thing about "Terran OP" complaints is that for a long time now, Terran has been held up by one or two elite players, but otherwise would be on the precipice of extinction. Flash and Fantasy singlehandedly held up Terran in the final two years of BW. It was the only race that didn't really have up and comers. While Bogus (aka Innovation) and Last probably get to elite status if BW stays alive, in 2011, the status of Terrans outside of the top two (Flash and Fantasy) was nowhere near as good as the status of Zerg or Protoss outside of their top two players (it's not even clear who the top 2 Zergs or Protoss were by that time). Here's a list of every player to make final 4 at the 9 Brood War OSL + MSLs played from 2010 until the end of BW (in mid 2012): Terran: * Flash * Fantasy * Light Zerg: * Zero * Hydra * soO * Calm * Modesty * Jaedong * Effort * Hydra * great Protoss: * Jangbi * Stork * free * Pure * Kal It would be fascinating if Flash and Last went to army at the same time. It could be an extinction event for Terran. I like Mind a lot but he's not a league winning threat in the current era. Same goes for guys like Sea, Light, Sharp, etc. Whereas there's a smattering of Zergs and Protosses that have some chance.
Great post. People forget how much a few players did for Terran.
To me, the biggest problem of this finals was the winner picks next map format
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konadora
Singapore66358 Posts
wow last played absolutely perfectly
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On September 09 2018 03:06 konadora wrote:
wow last played absolutely perfectly
hi kona ! i was thinking about you , to LR like in the old days 
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Man this was dissapointing finals. Jaedong didn’t look like he wanted that prize money lol. I think early pressure more games would have challenged last a lot more. And 4th bases are nessecary on zvt on fs.
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Man that was sad - but gg and amazing play by Last, very deserved win. At least Jaedong didn't just had a blackout day, he played well, Last just played better.
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United Kingdom12024 Posts
Last played so well, he had an answer for everything JD threw at him. Kinda sad it ended so quickly though, but JD made some really questionable pushes in and losing the lurkers on blue storm like that lost him the game 
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It's really disappointing that folks would rather balance whine than comment about the sheer brilliance in some of Last's play. The reaction he pulled in game 1 to JD's ling backstab was just wonderful - he did what a Flash would usually do - pull the minimum forces needed to defend back to his nat - but on top of that, he feigned a mistake and pulled the rest of his army onto the plateau overlooking JD's 3rd to bait JD's lurkers out.
I'm divided between whether this is Last reading JD or S-level positioning.
What sets JD apart from other "modern era" Zergs is that he loves making small positional gambles that he believes his micro and reflexes can carry him through. This makes JD very efficient with his units (and makes his playstyle a joy to watch), but it also sets him up for punishment if his opponent can exploit that correctly. We saw Last exploit that to a T (heh heh) today. Maybe Last did this because he intuitively "knows" it's the optimal positional move (sacrificing a little position to bait a move-out) or because he understands JD's positional style almost as well as Flash understood JD's build orders. But either way, I haven't seen this ability to induce mistakes in his opponent in any player since peak Savior or Flash.
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On September 08 2018 19:24 ShloobeR wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2018 19:02 evilfatsh1t wrote:On September 08 2018 18:49 ShloobeR wrote:
Ahh okay just rewatching it, Ultralisk Chitinous plating upgrade finished while he was killing the first push, so he definitely would have had consume/lurker out even if he could have gotten consume out, he would have to defend with ling/muta/defilers. he wasnt teching to lurkers before the attack and to start when he realised the push was going to come fast, well he wouldnt have the resources for it. if we analyse the game and judge their decisions by the second then yeah defilers could have been better but i doubt jd wanted to risk defilers being a bit too late. he needed to defend the 3oclock perfectly. even if the hatchery didnt die drone losses would be devastating anyway and defilers with swarm would still have incurred losses Well the point is I'm assuming he wasn't teching to lurkers because he had already made up his mind to go ultras. If he had no intention of going ultras he would have started the hydra den / lurker tech earlier without a doubt Considering he already had knowledge that the push was going to be quite tank heavy (and he had already lowered the vessel count a little bit), his decision to go ultras at any point just makes no sense to me. I guess we'll just have to disagree.
when he decided to tech to ultras he only had the resources for 1 tech tree. if he chooses defilers he has to defend with muta-ling only, as he does not have the money to put up lurker tech simultaneously. this is an issue of him deciding to open mutas and being able to do 0 dmg, on top of last not giving him the time to tech anyway.
aside from the pressure of risking not having defilers out quick enough, he has to face a number of vessel that dont need to irradiate anything else, and his only army is mutaling which can get outmaneuvered by sk terran quite easily.
i think jd made the right choice given his circumstances. brute forcing battles just until his 4th gas is running was his best chance. he lasted a couple of fights only but i think he wouldnt have even lasted 1 if he opted for defilers without lurkers.
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just finished watching the series. Really heartbroken :'( Jaedong winning the 1st KSL (and a Best of 7 semis and finals at that) before doing his military service and retiring his sC career was all I wanted for 2018. Last played really well. I can honestly say Last deserved the championship. He outplayed my boy JD. Every. Single. Game. If someone changed Last's name to Flash, no one would notice. He played like Flash. Every game was so amazing. 1-1-1 done right, and done by a Solid player like Last, is so scary.
Damn. so sad. Not even a single win
Has been and always will be a Jaedong fan. To the death.
In his top form or not, Gun to my head, I'd pick The Tyrant all my Life.
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I like the KSL format a lot (Bo5 group stages and Bo7 semis and finals). My only complaint is that the loser should be the one to pick the next map.
In cases where it doesn't matter who picks, then it doesn't matter.
In cases where it does matter who picks, then loser-picks-map makes it more likely for both players to show their best.
Regarding the outcome, I always figured it was a matter of time before Last won a big league, even though I really really wanted Jaedong to win this one. So congratulations to Last for his hard work and extremely solid play. He's definitely a worthy competitor, and perhaps this will end his reputation (?) for not playing well in offline matches.
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On September 09 2018 03:41 Shady Sands wrote:
It's really disappointing that folks would rather balance whine than comment about the sheer brilliance in some of Last's play. The reaction he pulled in game 1 to JD's ling backstab was just wonderful - he did what a Flash would usually do - pull the minimum forces needed to defend back to his nat - but on top of that, he feigned a mistake and pulled the rest of his army onto the plateau overlooking JD's 3rd to bait JD's lurkers out.
I'm divided between whether this is Last reading JD or S-level positioning.
What sets JD apart from other "modern era" Zergs is that he loves making small positional gambles that he believes his micro and reflexes can carry him through. This makes JD very efficient with his units (and makes his playstyle a joy to watch), but it also sets him up for punishment if his opponent can exploit that correctly. We saw Last exploit that to a T (heh heh) today. Maybe Last did this because he intuitively "knows" it's the optimal positional move (sacrificing a little position to bait a move-out) or because he understands JD's positional style almost as well as Flash understood JD's build orders. But either way, I haven't seen this ability to induce mistakes in his opponent in any player since peak Savior or Flash.
Last still might have won game 1, but Jaedong lost that game when he suicided his lurkers.
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Bulgaria750 Posts
On September 09 2018 03:41 Shady Sands wrote:
It's really disappointing that folks would rather balance whine than comment about the sheer brilliance in some of Last's play. The reaction he pulled in game 1 to JD's ling backstab was just wonderful - he did what a Flash would usually do - pull the minimum forces needed to defend back to his nat - but on top of that, he feigned a mistake and pulled the rest of his army onto the plateau overlooking JD's 3rd to bait JD's lurkers out.
I'm divided between whether this is Last reading JD or S-level positioning.
What sets JD apart from other "modern era" Zergs is that he loves making small positional gambles that he believes his micro and reflexes can carry him through. This makes JD very efficient with his units (and makes his playstyle a joy to watch), but it also sets him up for punishment if his opponent can exploit that correctly. We saw Last exploit that to a T (heh heh) today. Maybe Last did this because he intuitively "knows" it's the optimal positional move (sacrificing a little position to bait a move-out) or because he understands JD's positional style almost as well as Flash understood JD's build orders. But either way, I haven't seen this ability to induce mistakes in his opponent in any player since peak Savior or Flash.
Thank you, it's not just me.
And I would say it was S-level positioning. Taking the high ground with no overlords present, being the only way out for lurkers, was the best thing to do and he did it. Moreover, he did not just assume defensive posture up there, but he explicitly waited for the lurkers he knew would come and pounced on them.
People berate JD for making a "blunder" that cost him the game; really, it was just really good tactical play and situational awareness from Last. Give him credit, guys, there is only one other Terran doing that stuff consistently and we all know who he is.
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On September 09 2018 03:41 Shady Sands wrote:
It's really disappointing that folks would rather balance whine than comment about the sheer brilliance in some of Last's play. The reaction he pulled in game 1 to JD's ling backstab was just wonderful - he did what a Flash would usually do - pull the minimum forces needed to defend back to his nat - but on top of that, he feigned a mistake and pulled the rest of his army onto the plateau overlooking JD's 3rd to bait JD's lurkers out.
I'm divided between whether this is Last reading JD or S-level positioning.
What sets JD apart from other "modern era" Zergs is that he loves making small positional gambles that he believes his micro and reflexes can carry him through. This makes JD very efficient with his units (and makes his playstyle a joy to watch), but it also sets him up for punishment if his opponent can exploit that correctly. We saw Last exploit that to a T (heh heh) today. Maybe Last did this because he intuitively "knows" it's the optimal positional move (sacrificing a little position to bait a move-out) or because he understands JD's positional style almost as well as Flash understood JD's build orders. But either way, I haven't seen this ability to induce mistakes in his opponent in any player since peak Savior or Flash.
He almost lost game 1 ffs please.
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On September 09 2018 03:06 konadora wrote:
wow last played absolutely perfectly
He did. If only he did it consistently. But it appears that he can only be that good vs zergs.
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It's funny that Last mentions his fans in the final speech but you hear barely any cheers after his victory. Sad series for both of them.
I thought JD had a good chance of taking this KSL in the absense of Flash but guess he goes to military with a silver.
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On September 09 2018 07:31 letian wrote:
It's funny that Last mentions his fans in the final speech but you hear barely any cheers after his victory. Sad series for both of them.
I thought JD had a good chance of taking this KSL in the absense of Flash but guess he goes to military with a silver.
This is reality. The audience is not there for the gameplay
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Bisutopia19300 Posts
No prediction made me feel worse then this one. I wish I was wrong, but man I am really happy for Last.
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from: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/profile.php?user=Shady Sands
It's really disappointing that folks would rather balance whine than comment about the sheer brilliance in some of Last's play. The reaction he pulled in game 1 to JD's ling backstab was just wonderful - he did what a Flash would usually do - pull the minimum forces needed to defend back to his nat - but on top of that, he feigned a mistake and pulled the rest of his army onto the plateau overlooking JD's 3rd to bait JD's lurkers out.
I'm divided between whether this is Last reading JD or S-level positioning.
What sets JD apart from other "modern era" Zergs is that he loves making small positional gambles that he believes his micro and reflexes can carry him through. This makes JD very efficient with his units (and makes his playstyle a joy to watch), but it also sets him up for punishment if his opponent can exploit that correctly. We saw Last exploit that to a T (heh heh) today. Maybe Last did this because he intuitively "knows" it's the optimal positional move (sacrificing a little position to bait a move-out) or because he understands JD's positional style almost as well as Flash understood JD's build orders. But either way, I haven't seen this ability to induce mistakes in his opponent in any player since peak Savior or Flash.
JD also made some positional mistakes with the lurkers in game 1 that set the tone for the rest of the series.
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Well, at least there is a reason to be happy the catperson won.
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EPT
