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(EmSc TV)[KSL] Grand Finals: Last vs Jaedong
| Forum Index > Brood War Tournaments |
The balance whining is starting to get out of hand. TL has always had a "zero tolerance" policy when it comes to addressing balance whine. Please be wary of what you post because we will be handing out mod actions now. | ||
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50107 Posts
(Tasteless and Artosis)Korean Stream (KCM, trOt and Zeus)German Stream (NarutO and TakeTV)Polish Stream (EmSc TV) | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50107 Posts
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NoS-Craig
Australia3093 Posts
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polgas
Canada1752 Posts
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/Gra9CmV.png) | ||
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bovienchien
Vietnam1152 Posts
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RAPiDCasting
Korea (South)594 Posts
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prosatan
Romania7930 Posts
On September 08 2018 13:42 bovienchien wrote: Last 4 - 0 Jaedong NOOOOO!! I am going to quit starcraft if JD loses 4-0 !! And to die if JD loses 4-3 !!! | ||
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prosatan
Romania7930 Posts
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nastzkoa
34 Posts
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Katkishka
United States648 Posts
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prosatan
Romania7930 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50107 Posts
On September 08 2018 14:39 Katkishka wrote: I can't tell if Jaedong's actually in good form again after all this time, if his wins were random flukes, or if his opponents just played *that* poorly, but I'm crossing my fingers for a good, close series. watch the games then, if you still can't tell then let me tell you, hes good. | ||
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Cush
United States646 Posts
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JaggiCrusher
3 Posts
Jaedong 4-2 | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
Jaedong Hwaiting!~! | ||
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Alpha-NP-
United States1242 Posts
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FyRe_DragOn
Canada2056 Posts
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prosatan
Romania7930 Posts
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KamMoye
United States721 Posts
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sc19980331
China1609 Posts
8 years after  Korean Air Starleague Season 2 , Jaedong will play KSL finals in 1 hour, hype :-).![[image loading]](http://stimg.afreecatv.com/NORMAL_BBS/6/15895046/10805b927cfedc6e0.png) | ||
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sc19980331
China1609 Posts
![[image loading]](http://stimg.afreecatv.com/NORMAL_BBS/6/15895046/88295b93270fdcb3a.png) | ||
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sM.Zik
Canada2547 Posts
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Season
United States301 Posts
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sertman
United States540 Posts
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nojok
France15845 Posts
Bunker rush and 4 pool only please! | ||
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prosatan
Romania7930 Posts
On September 08 2018 16:14 nojok wrote: Hyped but won't be able to watch the entirety of it. Bunker rush and 4 pool only please! nojok is there smth more important than this ???  | ||
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sM.Zik
Canada2547 Posts
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prosatan
Romania7930 Posts
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nojok
France15845 Posts
On September 08 2018 16:15 prosatan wrote: nojok is there smth more important than this ??? There is no VOD of family lunch though. | ||
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Motivate
2860 Posts
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Zera
Lithuania716 Posts
hehe, good one  | ||
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zion
Belgium31 Posts
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FlaShFTW
United States10123 Posts
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chaosTheory_14cc
Canada1270 Posts
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fLyiNgDroNe
Belgium3999 Posts
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Tamagoshi
Brazil981 Posts
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Motivate
2860 Posts
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Elroi
Sweden5594 Posts
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starkiller123
United States4030 Posts
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prosatan
Romania7930 Posts
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Disregard
China10252 Posts
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Dante08
Singapore4126 Posts
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prosatan
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nojok
France15845 Posts
Last 4 2. | ||
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Motivate
2860 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50107 Posts
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prosatan
Romania7930 Posts
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razorsuKe
Canada2000 Posts
Secret plan confirmation YellOw makes an appearance FUCKING GGRRRRR shows up?!?! Speaks fluent korean and cheers him on? DAMN | ||
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prosatan
Romania7930 Posts
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GreasedUpDeafGuy
United States398 Posts
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prosatan
Romania7930 Posts
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nojok
France15845 Posts
This angry announcer sounds like the nobilities adressing the king in medieval Korean movies. | ||
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Zera
Lithuania716 Posts
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Motivate
2860 Posts
lol i can only imagine how weird you must feel just staring at your opponent like that across the trophy | ||
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prosatan
Romania7930 Posts
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GreasedUpDeafGuy
United States398 Posts
On September 08 2018 17:03 prosatan wrote: kind of awkward when they stay face to face you spelled "badass" wrong | ||
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Motivate
2860 Posts
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Colouss
United States501 Posts
On September 08 2018 17:05 Motivate wrote: jaedong should take last to late macro game. make his wrists hurt. Didn't Jaedong also has wrist issues? Wouldn't be a very good choice when both of their wrists fall off after 7 games. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50107 Posts
On September 08 2018 17:05 Motivate wrote: jaedong should take last to late macro game. make his wrists hurt. jaedong's wrists are just as bad if not worse. | ||
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GreasedUpDeafGuy
United States398 Posts
On September 08 2018 17:07 BLinD-RawR wrote: jaedong's wrists are just as bad if not worse. Far worse, he said in an interview that 15+ years have "ruined" them | ||
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GreasedUpDeafGuy
United States398 Posts
I see you too are a man of fine taste | ||
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NoS-Craig
Australia3093 Posts
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On September 08 2018 17:08 GreasedUpDeafGuy wrote: I see you too are a man of terrible taste Fixed that for you! JD fighting! | ||
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sc19980331
China1609 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50107 Posts
aka korean hulk | ||
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prosatan
Romania7930 Posts
Good fixing !! JD FIGHTING !!!!!!!!!!!!! | ||
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nojok
France15845 Posts
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chongu
Malaysia2585 Posts
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prosatan
Romania7930 Posts
On September 08 2018 17:11 chongu wrote: HYYYPPPPPEEE I have a flight 2 hours from now--- zzzzzz. I may miss the end of the match. Woe is me. No worry chongu ! i will LR for you and everyone ! better than the match itself | ||
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ne4aJIb
Russian Federation3209 Posts
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prosatan
Romania7930 Posts
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rand0MPrecisi0n
313 Posts
On September 08 2018 17:10 nojok wrote: You have to hit the gym hard to be a voice actor in Korea :o :D That guy is alpha af, damn | ||
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prosatan
Romania7930 Posts
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Motivate
2860 Posts
.... lol best of luck last | ||
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prosatan
Romania7930 Posts
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
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prosatan
Romania7930 Posts
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chongu
Malaysia2585 Posts
On September 08 2018 17:13 prosatan wrote: No worry chongu ! i will LR for you and everyone ! better than the match itself Thanks : ) | ||
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prosatan
Romania7930 Posts
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prosatan
Romania7930 Posts
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GreasedUpDeafGuy
United States398 Posts
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prosatan
Romania7930 Posts
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GreasedUpDeafGuy
United States398 Posts
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prosatan
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mechzdeus
88 Posts
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prosatan
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Ej_
47656 Posts
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Hall0wed
United States8486 Posts
On September 08 2018 17:18 Ej_ wrote: It would be greatly appreciated if Tastosis could stop doing their hype voices for literally every game ever played in any finals. Disagree | ||
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Dante08
Singapore4126 Posts
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prosatan
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prosatan
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prosatan
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fLyiNgDroNe
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prosatan
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prosatan
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Dante08
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Ej_
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fLyiNgDroNe
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Heartland
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Heartland
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prosatan
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BLinD-RawR
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BLinD-RawR
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nojok
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prosatan
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Ej_
47656 Posts
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
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prosatan
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Dante08
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NoS-Craig
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BLinD-RawR
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sM.Zik
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Malinor
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starkiller123
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n.DieJokes
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fLyiNgDroNe
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ne4aJIb
Russian Federation3209 Posts
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Kommander
Philippines4950 Posts
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Cush
United States646 Posts
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rand0MPrecisi0n
313 Posts
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nastzkoa
34 Posts
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Motivate
2860 Posts
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Disregard
China10252 Posts
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polgas
Canada1752 Posts
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razorsuKe
Canada2000 Posts
Mound was finished and everything. | ||
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prosatan
Romania7930 Posts
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Disregard
China10252 Posts
Welp, suddenly drops 6k | ||
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prosatan
Romania7930 Posts
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Motivate
2860 Posts
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prosatan
Romania7930 Posts
On September 08 2018 17:34 Motivate wrote: did last just go 14 cc on polaris rhapsody?? yes ! and jd goes double hatch before pool! | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50107 Posts
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sc19980331
China1609 Posts
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chongu
Malaysia2585 Posts
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prosatan
Romania7930 Posts
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prosatan
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AzAlexZ
Australia3303 Posts
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GreasedUpDeafGuy
United States398 Posts
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sM.Zik
Canada2547 Posts
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50107 Posts
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
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polgas
Canada1752 Posts
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Dante08
Singapore4126 Posts
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NoS-Craig
Australia3093 Posts
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Malinor
Germany4721 Posts
But Last identified this very well. | ||
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chongu
Malaysia2585 Posts
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3nickma
Denmark1510 Posts
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Disregard
China10252 Posts
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DwD
Sweden8621 Posts
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Motivate
2860 Posts
forces jaedong to get a 3rd hatch or be super behind (unless he did an early pool). it's too hard to defend your third on polaris rhapsody before lurkers/nydus. | ||
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Zera
Lithuania716 Posts
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prosatan
Romania7930 Posts
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On September 08 2018 17:44 prosatan wrote: i am so upset now It's not over until it's over! LLWWWW! | ||
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chuDr3t4
Russian Federation484 Posts
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SlayerS_BunkiE
Canada1707 Posts
On September 08 2018 17:41 Motivate wrote: that 14 cc was super smart by last. forces jaedong to get a 3rd hatch or be super behind (unless he did an early pool). it's too hard to defend your third on polaris rhapsody before lurkers/nydus. JD didnt have to make the 3rd hatch at an expansion tho. Bah, he was very close to defending it too... Sunks were late | ||
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
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Motivate
2860 Posts
On September 08 2018 17:46 chuDr3t4 wrote: ok but seriously what is going w/ winner choses next map? yeah it's dumb. it creates a lot of one sided series On September 08 2018 17:46 SlayerS_BunkiE wrote: JD didnt have to make the 3rd hatch at an expansion tho. Bah, he was very close to defending it too... Sunks were late actually yeah forgot about that... who comes out on top 14 cc vs in base 3rd hatch? guess jaedong was greedy. | ||
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Terra1
Philippines312 Posts
On September 08 2018 17:44 prosatan wrote: i am so upset now Believe in the Tyrant! I'm not wasting watching the finals just for JD to get rekt 4-0, NO! I'm sure JD can do it. It's the Tyrant we're talking here. | ||
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prosatan
Romania7930 Posts
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Ej_
47656 Posts
On September 08 2018 17:47 Motivate wrote: actually yeah forgot about that... who comes out on top 14 cc vs in base 3rd hatch? guess jaedong was greedy. IIRC 14CC wins vs regular 3hatch no pool | ||
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Motivate
2860 Posts
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prosatan
Romania7930 Posts
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prosatan
Romania7930 Posts
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prosatan
Romania7930 Posts
if last manages to sneak a vulture on jd's main , i will quit watching | ||
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IshinShishi
Japan6156 Posts
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GreasedUpDeafGuy
United States398 Posts
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prosatan
Romania7930 Posts
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
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KarlHungus1908
67 Posts
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prosatan
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prosatan
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prosatan
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prosatan
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DwD
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Kerotan
England2109 Posts
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ShloobeR
Korea (South)3809 Posts
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prosatan
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prosatan
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prosatan
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IshinShishi
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ShloobeR
Korea (South)3809 Posts
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nojok
France15845 Posts
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ShloobeR
Korea (South)3809 Posts
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NoS-Craig
Australia3093 Posts
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DwD
Sweden8621 Posts
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nojok
France15845 Posts
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sM.Zik
Canada2547 Posts
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Disregard
China10252 Posts
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
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prosatan
Romania7930 Posts
i will stop watching! i cannot see JD lose ! bye | ||
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Kerotan
England2109 Posts
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ne4aJIb
Russian Federation3209 Posts
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Dante08
Singapore4126 Posts
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Malinor
Germany4721 Posts
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Uldridge
Belgium4728 Posts
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Motivate
2860 Posts
that was such a premature gg, he still had his third | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50107 Posts
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Zera
Lithuania716 Posts
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shabby
Norway6402 Posts
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Ty2
United States1434 Posts
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NoS-Craig
Australia3093 Posts
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Kerotan
England2109 Posts
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Kleinmuuhg
Vanuatu4091 Posts
On September 08 2018 18:02 prosatan wrote: ok gg i will stop watching! i cannot see JD lose ! bye you really need to chill a bit | ||
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3nickma
Denmark1510 Posts
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Ej_
47656 Posts
On September 08 2018 18:03 Motivate wrote: WHAT that was such a premature gg, he still had his third He didn't have a single lair tech unit and a bio/tank/vessel push was coming to his natural | ||
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Disregard
China10252 Posts
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IshinShishi
Japan6156 Posts
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Uldridge
Belgium4728 Posts
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
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Charoisaur
Germany15914 Posts
On September 08 2018 18:02 blade55555 wrote: Well congrats to Last. Sad to see Jaedong couldn't win the final. it's bo7 | ||
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figq
12519 Posts
On September 08 2018 08:09 Miragee wrote: BigFan and Bisudagger involved in match-fixing confirmed. + Show Spoiler + My other theory is that it's an attempt at reverse-jinxing.  Well, if they were anti-jinxing... it turned out they jinxed it. | ||
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Motivate
2860 Posts
On September 08 2018 18:03 shabby wrote: But why? Map control, 3rd base, killed some vessels. Why attack with ling hydra into bunker siege tanks. yeah... i dont get this fascination with trying to kill 1-1-1 early by committing to hydras. 1-1-1 isn't a very economic build so it's not like you're playing against the clock. | ||
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Dante08
Singapore4126 Posts
On September 08 2018 18:03 Motivate wrote: WHAT that was such a premature gg, he still had his third I don't think he had lurker tech. No way he was going to hold the push. | ||
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Hall0wed
United States8486 Posts
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sM.Zik
Canada2547 Posts
On September 08 2018 18:04 Ej_ wrote: He didn't have a single lair tech unit and a bio/tank/vessel push was coming to his natural He had like 900-700 though I dont understand.. | ||
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NoS-Craig
Australia3093 Posts
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Disregard
China10252 Posts
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reminisce12
Australia318 Posts
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DwD
Sweden8621 Posts
Last was gonna push out with far superior tech and JD only had lings and hydras | ||
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figq
12519 Posts
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darktreb
United States3016 Posts
On September 08 2018 18:02 ShloobeR wrote: I feel like there's no reason to muta clump if there are no marines and few turrets Great, underrated point here. I guess in such a sloppy game, Jaedong didn't have a great read on Last's tech situation. He had a great chance with that Muta switch. At minimum should have killed a bunch of SCVs and the high ground tank. He might have been able to take over the Barracks with spread out Mutas. His one job was to not get annihilated by those Irradiates. Easier said than done but 9 Mutas can be fine against 4 Irradiates. Unfortunately it didn't happen. | ||
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Motivate
2860 Posts
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NoS-Craig
Australia3093 Posts
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IshinShishi
Japan6156 Posts
On September 08 2018 18:07 darktreb wrote: Great, underrated point here. I guess in such a sloppy game, Jaedong didn't have a great read on Last's tech situation. He had a great chance with that Muta switch. At minimum should have killed a bunch of SCVs and the high ground tank. He might have been able to take over the Barracks with spread out Mutas. His one job was to not get annihilated by those Irradiates. Easier said than done but 9 Mutas can be fine against 4 Irradiates. Unfortunately it didn't happen. ye, vs no turrets and no marines all he needed to do was to spread, sad throw. | ||
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Musicus
Germany23576 Posts
Let's take some maps Tyrant! | ||
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Terra1
Philippines312 Posts
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Dante08
Singapore4126 Posts
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Motivate
2860 Posts
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IshinShishi
Japan6156 Posts
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CoL_DarkstaR
Germany649 Posts
Guess it will go down 0-4. | ||
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739
Bearded Elder29903 Posts
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Motivate
2860 Posts
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Disregard
China10252 Posts
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serendipitous
Canada195 Posts
On September 08 2018 18:14 Motivate wrote: can anyone explain in one sentence what the appeal of 1-1-1 is and why everyone is doing it? you can die super easily... is it fast tech/science vessels? is it easier on the wrist? Versatility, you can be unpredictable and take control of the game early | ||
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Terra1
Philippines312 Posts
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starkiller123
United States4030 Posts
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Ej_
47656 Posts
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ShloobeR
Korea (South)3809 Posts
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Musicus
Germany23576 Posts
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starkiller123
United States4030 Posts
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Uldridge
Belgium4728 Posts
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IshinShishi
Japan6156 Posts
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Terra1
Philippines312 Posts
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Musicus
Germany23576 Posts
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ShloobeR
Korea (South)3809 Posts
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Musicus
Germany23576 Posts
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Malinor
Germany4721 Posts
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Ej_
47656 Posts
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AzAlexZ
Australia3303 Posts
I take it back, I thought JD was competent enough to at least take a map. LOL this is a shit-stomp | ||
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starkiller123
United States4030 Posts
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DwD
Sweden8621 Posts
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Ty2
United States1434 Posts
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Terra1
Philippines312 Posts
Last is just TOO good. But I think JD had a lot of mistakes too. | ||
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739
Bearded Elder29903 Posts
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Dante08
Singapore4126 Posts
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gravity
Australia1847 Posts
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AzAlexZ
Australia3303 Posts
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Burned Toast
Canada2040 Posts
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HolydaKing
21254 Posts
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nurle
Norway308 Posts
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Uldridge
Belgium4728 Posts
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Ej_
47656 Posts
On September 08 2018 18:24 AzAlexZ wrote: I take it back, I thought JD was competent enough to at least take a map. LOL this is a shit-stomp You don't need to bad mouth a very good player, just because he 4-0d your favorite. What are you, 5 years old? | ||
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NoS-Craig
Australia3093 Posts
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Musicus
Germany23576 Posts
Too bad, wp Last, still sick to JD in a final again. | ||
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DminusTerran
Canada1337 Posts
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starkiller123
United States4030 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50107 Posts
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IshinShishi
Japan6156 Posts
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rand0MPrecisi0n
313 Posts
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razorsuKe
Canada2000 Posts
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
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AzAlexZ
Australia3303 Posts
On September 08 2018 18:25 Ej_ wrote: You don't need to bad mouth a very good player, just because he 4-0d your favorite. What are you, 5 years old? uhhhh sorry? | ||
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ne4aJIb
Russian Federation3209 Posts
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Copymizer
Denmark2083 Posts
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ShloobeR
Korea (South)3809 Posts
Grats to Last! | ||
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Katkishka
United States648 Posts
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sertman
United States540 Posts
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Malinor
Germany4721 Posts
But they did :-) Grats to Last, that was absolutely well deserved. Those games reminded me of the time in 2010(?) when Flash and Jaedong battled out who is the best player of all time in 3 consecutive finals and Jaedong just did not have it anymore to stop him. You watch and just feel helpless. | ||
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starkiller123
United States4030 Posts
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Motivate
2860 Posts
his macro holy shit... you really need defilers against all those marines, not ultras | ||
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Disregard
China10252 Posts
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DminusTerran
Canada1337 Posts
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TelecoM
United States10668 Posts
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Elroi
Sweden5594 Posts
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SlayerS_BunkiE
Canada1707 Posts
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Dante08
Singapore4126 Posts
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IntoTheEmo
Singapore1169 Posts
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Uldridge
Belgium4728 Posts
Such an early flexibility from T seems very difficult to handle for Z | ||
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reminisce12
Australia318 Posts
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Motivate
2860 Posts
On September 08 2018 18:29 Uldridge wrote: Is 1-1-1 op? Such an early flexibility from T seems very difficult to handle for Z really? i think its the opposite. you can bust terran so easily. no one besides flash or last can really hold that. i think it's an overused build. | ||
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Dante08
Singapore4126 Posts
On September 08 2018 18:29 Uldridge wrote: Is 1-1-1 op? Such an early flexibility from T seems very difficult to handle for Z It's really good but it's really fragile, one mistake early game and you're dead. When Last and Flash use it it does seem good. I think Zerg just needs to forget about attacking when Terrans do 1-1-1 and just drone like mad and get your third up. | ||
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serendipitous
Canada195 Posts
On September 08 2018 18:29 Uldridge wrote: Is 1-1-1 op? Such an early flexibility from T seems very difficult to handle for Z It was pretty broken at first but apparently people have figured out how to handle it The results probably look different when it's anyone other than last/flash doing it | ||
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Zidane
United States1685 Posts
no lurker or defilers lol wtf | ||
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Ej_
47656 Posts
On September 08 2018 18:29 reminisce12 wrote: i dont get the reason why these progamers rush to ultra skipping lurkers... it never works especially when ur behind and defending.. If I had to guess, a close 3rd is easier to hold vs 1-1-1 and lurker into defiler is worse then? There definitely is some reason if multiple people (SK, JD, Killer) do it. I think it's very naive to think that it's not good. | ||
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starkiller123
United States4030 Posts
On September 08 2018 18:31 Ej_ wrote: If I had to guess, a close 3rd is easier to hold vs 1-1-1 and lurker into defiler is worse then? There definitely is some reason if multiple people (SK, JD, Killer) do it. I think it's very naive to think that it's not good. no this random TL poster knows better than all of the best zerg players clearly | ||
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prosatan
Romania7930 Posts
and Jd loses with 4-0..... | ||
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Dante08
Singapore4126 Posts
On September 08 2018 18:31 Ej_ wrote: If I had to guess, a close 3rd is easier to hold vs 1-1-1 and lurker into defiler is worse then? There definitely is some reason if multiple people (SK, JD, Killer) do it. I think it's very naive to think that it's not good. No way defiler + lurker is worse. Dark swarm + 2 lurkers and Terran has to retreat. | ||
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razorsuKe
Canada2000 Posts
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reincremate
China2213 Posts
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8632 Posts
last put 5 rax up before he even put up his academy. the push was faster than usual and if jd went for defilers he wouldnt have consume before his 3 o clock went down. same reason why he didnt go for lurkers, last could just slow push with vessel irradiate knowing defilers werent going to come out anyway. this is why 1-1-1 is preferred amongst pros over 1 rax fe. the variations you can apply to the build and the mind games are so good for terran | ||
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Ej_
47656 Posts
On September 08 2018 18:32 Dante08 wrote: No way defiler + lurker is worse. Dark swarm + 2 lurkers and Terran has to retreat. Well, I will trust the progamers on that one | ||
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GreasedUpDeafGuy
United States398 Posts
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
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Motivate
2860 Posts
On September 08 2018 18:31 Dante08 wrote: It's really good but it's really fragile, one mistake early game and you're dead. When Last and Flash use it it does seem good. I think Zerg just needs to forget about attacking when Terrans do 1-1-1 and just drone like mad and get your third up. I think this is true. Zergs are really fixated on trying to beat 1-1-1 early on. Almost like when muta harass is going well, everyone always wants to win with guardians when really they should just get defilers and win lol. | ||
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starkiller123
United States4030 Posts
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
On September 08 2018 18:35 starkiller123 wrote: now time to get some sleep before Montreal starts again, all I'm doing is watching starcraft this weekend lol Same lol. | ||
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Dante08
Singapore4126 Posts
On September 08 2018 18:33 evilfatsh1t wrote: jd couldnt go defilers, he didnt have the time. last put 5 rax up before he even put up his academy. the push was faster than usual and if jd went for defilers he wouldnt have consume before his 3 o clock went down. same reason why he didnt go for lurkers, last could just slow push with vessel irradiate knowing defilers werent going to come out anyway. this is why 1-1-1 is preferred amongst pros over 1 rax fe. the variations you can apply to the build and the mind games are so good for terran Really? I'm pretty sure if you rush to defiler you can get dark swarm out just in time. If you manage to get ultra armour I don't see why you won't have time for dark swarm. | ||
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starkiller123
United States4030 Posts
Montreal into GSL into KSL into more Montreal in 4 hours, what a life also watching KSL really makes me wish ASL was still on twitch, i think it would get way more western viewers that way | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8632 Posts
On September 08 2018 18:35 Motivate wrote: I think this is true. Zergs are really fixated on trying to beat 1-1-1 early on. Almost like when muta harass is going well, everyone always wants to win with guardians when really they should just get defilers and win lol. they try to beat them early on because thats when the build is weakest... even then its not THAT weak but if you play standard and you start off mid game at a disadvantage and it stays like that for too long. you dont know what terran is going to do and you dont know which units to build because theres a chance you get a straight up build order loss halfway through the game. thats what makes 1-1-1 so bs. the 4th game for example, cloaked wraiths arent that popular on pure 1-1-1. you see it with 1-1-2 or you see vessel production. but here is exactly where terran has the mind game advantage, jd has no choice but to roll the dice and attempt the standard muta harrass and hope that last didnt get cloaked wraiths. otherwise jd could have chosen hydra/lurker but hed still have to roll the dice and hope terran tried something other than standard vessel production. its hard to win when zerg HAS to attack terran first but terran can choose from 3 different ways to respond with the same opening and some of the responses straight up win you the game. On September 08 2018 18:38 Dante08 wrote: Really? I'm pretty sure if you rush to defiler you can get dark swarm out just in time. If you manage to get ultra armour I don't see why you won't have time for dark swarm. he didnt have ultra armour the first time he defended. it was +1 carapace on ultras. the thing about ultras also is you can spawn them and attack instantly, defilers would have just been irradiated while they sat around waiting for energy or consume to finish. when jd got his +4 finally last was also on +2/+1 so... | ||
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ortseam
996 Posts
On September 08 2018 18:31 Ej_ wrote: If I had to guess, a close 3rd is easier to hold vs 1-1-1 and lurker into defiler is worse then? There definitely is some reason if multiple people (SK, JD, Killer) do it. I think it's very naive to think that it's not good. The main focus of the 1-1-1 midgame is mass vessels . Vessels on high numbers destroy lurker/defiler, but are not so good against ultras (hard to irradiate before fight, irradiate during fight doesn't help Terran with all the splash damage dealt to marines) | ||
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ShloobeR
Korea (South)3809 Posts
On September 08 2018 18:33 evilfatsh1t wrote: jd couldnt go defilers, he didnt have the time. last put 5 rax up before he even put up his academy. the push was faster than usual and if jd went for defilers he wouldnt have consume before his 3 o clock went down. same reason why he didnt go for lurkers, last could just slow push with vessel irradiate knowing defilers werent going to come out anyway. this is why 1-1-1 is preferred amongst pros over 1 rax fe. the variations you can apply to the build and the mind games are so good for terran As far as I saw, he got chitinous plating by the time he hit the first push, I'll watch it again to see but consume comes out faster than CP | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
It must be so stressful and frustrating for Toss or Zerg to play against a top Terran who knows how to abuse their bag of builds and play mind games. When was the last time a top Terran got 4-0ed or 3-0ed? Almost never. Whilst it's common for a top Terran to absolutely rekt a top Zerg and Toss. I feel that the game design is such that Terran's flexibility gives them a slight psychological edge over the other races. | ||
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repomaniak
Poland324 Posts
KSL cheers art KR KSL Tastosis esports flowers KSL Tasteless JD wins 10 billion dollars KSL Last interview KSL Last ceremony KSL Tastosis esports flowers https://clips.twitch.tv/NastySmoggyMarrowAMPEnergyCherry | ||
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ShloobeR
Korea (South)3809 Posts
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Dante08
Singapore4126 Posts
On September 08 2018 18:42 evilfatsh1t wrote: they try to beat them early on because thats when the build is weakest... even then its not THAT weak but if you play standard and you start off mid game at a disadvantage and it stays like that for too long. you dont know what terran is going to do and you dont know which units to build because theres a chance you get a straight up build order loss halfway through the game. thats what makes 1-1-1 so bs. the 4th game for example, cloaked wraiths arent that popular on pure 1-1-1. you see it with 1-1-2 or you see vessel production. but here is exactly where terran has the mind game advantage, jd has no choice but to roll the dice and attempt the standard muta harrass and hope that last didnt get cloaked wraiths. otherwise jd could have chosen hydra/lurker but hed still have to roll the dice and hope terran tried something other than standard vessel production. its hard to win when zerg HAS to attack terran first but terran can choose from 3 different ways to respond with the same opening and some of the responses straight up win you the game. he didnt have ultra armour the first time he defended. it was +1 carapace on ultras. the thing about ultras also is you can spawn them and attack instantly, defilers would have just been irradiated while they sat around waiting for energy or consume to finish. when jd got his +4 finally last was also on +2/+1 so... I think the solution is standard 3 hatch --> get 2-3 hydras --> Spire into 4 scourge --> scout with the 4 scourge and produce mutas accordingly. At the same time get a fast third and tech to hive + lurker/defiler. Scouting with scourge would be the key as they are fast and even if you lose them it doesn't set you back much. | ||
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Uldridge
Belgium4728 Posts
Sure, you basically have 4 rines, a wraith and a tank for 5 minutes straight, but SCV's are tanky as fuck and are good meat shields (game 3). Maybe Z should try to have a bigger drone count? Have more mining bases? Tech quicker themselves (f.e. 2 base 2 hatch hive?) | ||
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Delial1986
29 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8632 Posts
On September 08 2018 18:50 Dante08 wrote: I think the solution is standard 3 hatch --> get 2-3 hydras --> Spire into 4 scourge --> scout with the 4 scourge and produce mutas accordingly. At the same time get a fast third and tech to hive + lurker/defiler. Scouting with scourge would be the key as they are fast and even if you lose them it doesn't set you back much. well its not really a solution when your only chance to win is to either kill them early or just sit back and drone up for a macro game. the 1st is easier said than done and the 2nd, well terran enters the mid game with no economical damage, full sk terran and youve still lost at least a couple overlords at the beginning. its not unwinnable but its a sucky way to have to enter the mid game just because their build is too flexible | ||
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AncientSion
71 Posts
Flash is good, as is Last, but they use Terran so basicly OP player on top of OP race = unbeatable. User was warned for this post. | ||
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Motivate
2860 Posts
terran was doing extremely poorly up until now. in fact, up until this series people were still very skeptical of last or any terran besides flash. also, we're still at the stage where NO ONE can tvp besides flash. i'm the biggest zerg fanboy but give credit where it's due. last played really well. | ||
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starkiller123
United States4030 Posts
On September 08 2018 18:57 Motivate wrote: wow... since when do people complain about broodwar perceived imbalance? terran was doing extremely poorly up until now. in fact, up until this series people were still very skeptical of last or any terran besides flash. also, we're still at the stage where NO ONE can tvp besides flash. i'm the biggest zerg fanboy but give credit where it's due. last played really well. people will find a way to bitch about anything | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8632 Posts
On September 08 2018 18:49 ShloobeR wrote: Ahh okay just rewatching it, Ultralisk Chitinous plating upgrade finished while he was killing the first push, so he definitely would have had consume/lurker out even if he could have gotten consume out, he would have to defend with ling/muta/defilers. he wasnt teching to lurkers before the attack and to start when he realised the push was going to come fast, well he wouldnt have the resources for it. if we analyse the game and judge their decisions by the second then yeah defilers could have been better but i doubt jd wanted to risk defilers being a bit too late. he needed to defend the 3oclock perfectly. even if the hatchery didnt die drone losses would be devastating anyway and defilers with swarm would still have incurred losses | ||
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outscar
2832 Posts
And happy for Last, he finally gets his win and shows he's not just some other terran. | ||
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Delial1986
29 Posts
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Lazare1969
United States318 Posts
On September 08 2018 18:52 Delial1986 wrote: I feel all discussions about what JD could do all pointless because Terrans are just fucking OP. And it is not about Last or Flash amazing skill, because I think JD strategical thinking and mechanics and all others skills are on the same level. He is just playing against OP Terrans. It is not without reason why Zerg didn't win any major tournament in SC for years! Did you see how JD threw away like 4 lurkers in the first game? There were 2 chances he could've won that game. Second game was him gambling with only 2 sunkens to try to take care of a whole marine & medic control group. Third game Jaedong again could've won the game after he busted his two bunkers and ran zerglins up the ramp, but played too indecisively afterwards. Fourth game was probably the only game you could say was a BO win because of how strong 1-1-1 is in cross spawns. | ||
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chongu
Malaysia2585 Posts
Jaedong wasn't able to show us his standard tvz, but such is the nature of tvz, Terran dictates the flow of the game. Terran seemed imba in the first two maps, really reminded me of flash Vs jaedong games where jaedong is half the supply of the Terran player without too much happening. Haha All in all, I wouldn't expect it to be a StarCraft tvz finals without whining. | ||
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Delial1986
29 Posts
On September 08 2018 19:08 Lazare1969 wrote: Did you see how JD threw away like 4 lurkers in the first game? There were 2 chances he could've won that game. Second game was him gambling with only 2 sunkens to try to take care of a whole marine & medic control group. Third game Jaedong again could've won the game after he busted his two bunkers and ran zerglins up the ramp, but played too indecisively afterwards. Fourth game was probably the only game you could say was a BO win because of how strong 1-1-1 is in cross spawns. I see it a bit differently. Game 1 bunker rush into soft contain makes it all easy for Last, but JD comes with some smart moves - zerlings run by, snipes with scourges and is almost on his way to come back, but makes ONE mistake with lurkers and it is GG. Game 2 - Polaris - 2 CC first - I think with this map it's gg from Zerg anyway. Game 3: perfect example of how much advantage JD manage to get in the early game and it is still not enough to beat Terran. Game 4: 1-1-1 into spam rax, sv, marines, medics and just a-move unitl you win. User was warned for this post. | ||
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Ej_
47656 Posts
On September 08 2018 19:07 Delial1986 wrote: Sorry, I don't think it's bitching, it is really simple observation. You can even find video with Korean zerg pros gathered and complaining about TvZ. You can find videos online of people saying that vaccines cause autism. | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
Surely in an asymmetrical game, it is less plausible that the matchup between both sides is perfectly 50-50 balanced. Top Terrans are slightly favoured against top Zergs in most maps (eg 52-55%) - is that an unreasonable assumption given the entire history of BW? Anyway, the discussion was about why that such assumption may be true (eg flexibility of builds). If you don't agree with the assumption, then no need to be bitchy about it. | ||
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Delial1986
29 Posts
On September 08 2018 19:19 Ej_ wrote: You can find videos online of people saying that vaccines cause autism. Oh come on, this is really dick move to use such a comparison. | ||
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ShloobeR
Korea (South)3809 Posts
On September 08 2018 19:02 evilfatsh1t wrote: even if he could have gotten consume out, he would have to defend with ling/muta/defilers. he wasnt teching to lurkers before the attack and to start when he realised the push was going to come fast, well he wouldnt have the resources for it. if we analyse the game and judge their decisions by the second then yeah defilers could have been better but i doubt jd wanted to risk defilers being a bit too late. he needed to defend the 3oclock perfectly. even if the hatchery didnt die drone losses would be devastating anyway and defilers with swarm would still have incurred losses Well the point is I'm assuming he wasn't teching to lurkers because he had already made up his mind to go ultras. If he had no intention of going ultras he would have started the hydra den / lurker tech earlier without a doubt Considering he already had knowledge that the push was going to be quite tank heavy (and he had already lowered the vessel count a little bit), his decision to go ultras at any point just makes no sense to me. I guess we'll just have to disagree. | ||
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Motivate
2860 Posts
On September 08 2018 19:19 RKC wrote: No one is saying that Terran is overwhelmingly OP (eg 90% stronger than other races). Surely in an asymmetrical game, it is less plausible that the matchup between both sides is perfectly 50-50 balanced. Top Terrans are slightly favoured against top Zergs in most maps (eg 52-55%) - is that an unreasonable assumption given the entire history of BW? Anyway, the discussion was about why that such assumption may be true (eg flexibility of builds). If you don't agree with the assumption, then no need to be bitchy about it. I find it is a very hard match up, yes. There are LOTS of ways for the Zerg to die from simple mistakes. As is the case with TvP or PvZ which are both very difficult for Terran and Protoss respectively (although I note on the previous page you say that Terran has a bag of builds vs protoss which I disagree with). However, a knee jerk response that Terran is overpowered isn't correct either. You don't see people complaining that Protoss is overpowered whenever they beat Terran? Last ASL, Protoss had maps (Third World) where they could abuse both carriers and arbiters. | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
On September 08 2018 19:27 Motivate wrote: I find it is a very hard match up, yes. There are LOTS of ways for the Zerg to die from simple mistakes. As is the case with TvP or PvZ which are both very difficult. However, a knee jerk response that Terran is overpowered isn't correct either. You don't see people complaining that Protoss is overpowered whenever they beat Terran? I was quite bitter when Snow defeated Flash last ASL actually. I still feel the map pool was terrible for Terran. For the record, I play Terran in BW. I know how annoying we can be, even at lower levels of play  | ||
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whaski
Finland576 Posts
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AzAlexZ
Australia3303 Posts
lol JD fans are just sad that he lost, quit whining, JD did really well even if he lost, second place in 8 years, thats not bad at all | ||
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Cryoc
Germany909 Posts
On September 08 2018 19:27 Motivate wrote: I find it is a very hard match up, yes. There are LOTS of ways for the Zerg to die from simple mistakes. As is the case with TvP or PvZ which are both very difficult for Terran and Protoss respectively (although I note on the previous page you say that Terran has a bag of builds vs protoss which I disagree with). However, a knee jerk response that Terran is overpowered isn't correct either. You don't see people complaining that Protoss is overpowered whenever they beat Terran? Last ASL, Protoss had maps (Third World) where they could abuse both carriers and arbiters. The majority of people play Protoss, so no surprise there. | ||
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darktreb
United States3016 Posts
On September 08 2018 19:35 AzAlexZ wrote: so when JD 4-0'd Rain did ppl bitch about Zerg OP? lol JD fans are just sad that he lost, quit whining, JD did really well even if he lost, second place in 8 years, thats not bad at all Yeah. I was rooting for JD but this is how BW works. ZvP, TvZ, and PvT sweeps are easier to come by. Also this was winner's choice map selection. That means win streaks are more likely. 1-0 usually leads to at least 2-0. The nice thing about winner's choice is that reverse streaks also become more likely. | ||
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chuDr3t4
Russian Federation484 Posts
happy for Last making 1 mistake that loses you the game and makes you lose the initiative so you get sweeped in the finals... well that's brood war for you. | ||
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Uldridge
Belgium4728 Posts
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Delial1986
29 Posts
On September 08 2018 19:35 AzAlexZ wrote: so when JD 4-0'd Rain did ppl bitch about Zerg OP? Or did people bitch about terran OP when Last beat SK? lol JD fans are just sad that he lost, quit whining, JD did really well even if he lost, second place in 8 years, thats not bad at all Why ppl don't bitch when JD 4-0 Rain? Because you can find a lot of examples on top level where PvZ can go either way, it's really open. Show me in a recent, lets say 2 year history example of top level Z winning swiftly against top level T like 4:0, or simply long winning streak against T. BW has been pretty much figured out, there won't be some new metgame shift in TvZ, 2 years from now, if people will still play BW you won't be seeing any Zerg with KSL, ASL or other championship titles. I can bet on this. | ||
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darktreb
United States3016 Posts
On September 08 2018 19:39 Cryoc wrote: The majority of people play Protoss, so no surprise there. The interesting thing about "Terran OP" complaints is that for a long time now, Terran has been held up by one or two elite players, but otherwise would be on the precipice of extinction. Flash and Fantasy singlehandedly held up Terran in the final two years of BW. It was the only race that didn't really have up and comers. While Bogus (aka Innovation) and Last probably get to elite status if BW stays alive, in 2011, the status of Terrans outside of the top two (Flash and Fantasy) was nowhere near as good as the status of Zerg or Protoss outside of their top two players (it's not even clear who the top 2 Zergs or Protoss were by that time). Here's a list of every player to make final 4 at the 9 Brood War OSL + MSLs played from 2010 until the end of BW (in mid 2012): Terran: * Flash * Fantasy * Light Zerg: * Zero * Hydra * soO * Calm * Modesty * Jaedong * Effort * Hydra * great Protoss: * Jangbi * Stork * free * Pure * Kal It would be fascinating if Flash and Last went to army at the same time. It could be an extinction event for Terran. I like Mind a lot but he's not a league winning threat in the current era. Same goes for guys like Sea, Light, Sharp, etc. Whereas there's a smattering of Zergs and Protosses that have some chance. | ||
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ortseam
996 Posts
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chuDr3t4
Russian Federation484 Posts
On September 08 2018 19:53 Delial1986 wrote: Why ppl don't bitch when JD 4-0 Rain? Because you can find a lot of examples on top level where PvZ can go either way, it's really open. Show me in a recent, lets say 2 year history example of top level Z winning swiftly against top level T like 4:0, or simply long winning streak against T. BW has been pretty much figured out, there won't be some new metgame shift in TvZ, 2 years from now, if people will still play BW you won't be seeing any Zerg with KSL, ASL or other championship titles. I can bet on this. dude just drop it, TvZ still evolves as we speak, you are pretty clueless about what's going on in BW, it really shows. let me sum up last year for you 5 rax +1 into mech switch into mass queens into SK terran into hydra guardian bust into 1-1-1(we are currently here) | ||
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De4ngus
United States6533 Posts
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Delial1986
29 Posts
On September 08 2018 19:58 chuDr3t4 wrote: dude just drop it, TvZ still evolves as we speak, you are pretty clueless about what's going on in BW, it really shows. let me sum up last year for you 5 rax +1 into mech switch into mass queens into SK terran into hydra guardian bust into 1-1-1(we are currently here) TvZ still evolves? I guess into new ways you can beat Z. Time will tell. | ||
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Motivate
2860 Posts
On September 08 2018 20:02 De4ngus wrote: It honestly feels like the matchups are really polarized right now. 4-0 vs Rain, the current best protoss, into 0-4 against Last? I guess the KSL format doesn't help either, but we've been seeing basically every terran besides Flash getting rolled over by protoss as well for some time now. If Soulkey and Jaedong couldn't beat Last, I'm scared of what Flash is going to do to the poor zergs. yeah the rock paper scissors match ups have been standing out a lot lately. i'm wondering if it's the lack of the super competitive practice house environment? during KESPA era it felt much more subtle. protosses could hold hydra busts, zergs wouldn't die mid game as much, and terrans wouldn't roll over and die to carriers On September 08 2018 20:08 Delial1986 wrote: TvZ still evolves? I guess into new ways you can beat Z. Time will tell. what are you trying to achieve with this posting? ultras are being used a lot lately | ||
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oxKnu
1178 Posts
On September 08 2018 20:02 De4ngus wrote: It honestly feels like the matchups are really polarized right now. 4-0 vs Rain, the current best protoss, into 0-4 against Last? I guess the KSL format doesn't help either, but we've been seeing basically every terran besides Flash getting rolled over by protoss as well for some time now. If Soulkey and Jaedong couldn't beat Last, I'm scared of what Flash is going to do to the poor zergs. Reading too much into it. Jaedong is a really streaky player, can beat anyone on a given day but at the same time lose in a straight forward manner to a lot of players on another day. I think KSL has shown us that the format can really help some players (as opposed to ASL where comebacks rarely happen). It was a nice tourney. | ||
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atrox_
United Kingdom1710 Posts
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prosatan
Romania7930 Posts
On September 08 2018 18:49 repomaniak wrote: KSL cheers KR https://clips.twitch.tv/DoubtfulHeartlessLaptopArgieB8 KSL cheers art KR https://clips.twitch.tv/AgitatedAffluentKaleOpieOP KSL Tastosis esports flowers https://clips.twitch.tv/NastySmoggyMarrowAMPEnergyCherry KSL Tasteless JD wins 10 billion dollars https://clips.twitch.tv/GloriousEagerCoffeeDogFace KSL Last interview https://clips.twitch.tv/RoughThoughtfulParrotMrDestructoid KSL Last ceremony https://clips.twitch.tv/BlitheOilyCakeWow KSL Tastosis esports flowers https://clips.twitch.tv/NastySmoggyMarrowAMPEnergyCherry | ||
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razorsuKe
Canada2000 Posts
On top of that, you can chase down mutas as they move away too. | ||
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Freakling
Germany1529 Posts
On September 08 2018 18:49 ShloobeR wrote: Ahh okay just rewatching it, Ultralisk Chitinous plating upgrade finished while he was killing the first push, so he definitely would have had consume/lurker out Defiler mound requires 90gs to build, Ultra Cavern 120gs. Build time for Defilers is 75gs, Ultras need 90gs. Plating is 133gs, consume is 100gs. So Defilers with consume can be up 190gs after the Hive finishes. Ultralisks: 210gs Ultras with plating: 253gs Earlier availability is definietly not the reason to go Ultras over Defilers. | ||
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iamho
United States3347 Posts
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StylishVODs
Sweden5331 Posts
Also, in the third game, after killing Last's defenses and scvs in his expansion. He was on three hatches with money gathering. Jaedong should have just placed more hatches from the excess cash and droned up asap. He was so far ahead at that point that he could have gone high econ hydra-lurk. Overall it felt as if Jaedong's spirit was crushed after losing the free lurkers that first game and from there he couldn't bring his A-game from the last few weeks. Oh well, hope he can shake it off for ASL6. As for Last, he showed really strong macro in the last game. Other than that, I can't really say that he had to play extraordinarily well to take the series... | ||
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TaardadAiel
Bulgaria750 Posts
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Shinokuki
United States859 Posts
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chuDr3t4
Russian Federation484 Posts
Is Soulkey our hope of beating Flash in ASL 6? | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia13004 Posts
But his ZvT needs work. Agree it’s a tough MU but for Z but that’s not why JD lost. Last is the better player and that’s tough to overcome for JD in a bo7. | ||
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TaardadAiel
Bulgaria750 Posts
Game 3 was won by clutch irradiates and a sick, sick pimpest play mine-snipe beneath the ramp. JD's build was fairly good IMO, I think the idea was to keep the pressure up with hydra/ling for as long as possible while maintaining the economy to switch to mutas. Last was just prepared and hung on by a pretty thin thread on several occasions. As for game 4, I don't think the ultra tech in itself was such a bad idea, ultras give you mobility. When the tank/vessel/bio comes out and you defend the ramp of the 3rd with lurkers beneath swarm, terran can simply push the nat. Ultras are a great idea for staving the push cost-effectively, they just need the upgrades, I think. Timings will have to be refined. and 1-1-1 is such a flexible build, really. It's just that it's so demanding that a handful of players can use it against the big names. | ||
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SlayerS_BunkiE
Canada1707 Posts
On September 08 2018 19:53 darktreb wrote: The interesting thing about "Terran OP" complaints is that for a long time now, Terran has been held up by one or two elite players, but otherwise would be on the precipice of extinction. Flash and Fantasy singlehandedly held up Terran in the final two years of BW. It was the only race that didn't really have up and comers. While Bogus (aka Innovation) and Last probably get to elite status if BW stays alive, in 2011, the status of Terrans outside of the top two (Flash and Fantasy) was nowhere near as good as the status of Zerg or Protoss outside of their top two players (it's not even clear who the top 2 Zergs or Protoss were by that time). Here's a list of every player to make final 4 at the 9 Brood War OSL + MSLs played from 2010 until the end of BW (in mid 2012): Terran: * Flash * Fantasy * Light Zerg: * Zero * Hydra * soO * Calm * Modesty * Jaedong * Effort * Hydra * great Protoss: * Jangbi * Stork * free * Pure * Kal It would be fascinating if Flash and Last went to army at the same time. It could be an extinction event for Terran. I like Mind a lot but he's not a league winning threat in the current era. Same goes for guys like Sea, Light, Sharp, etc. Whereas there's a smattering of Zergs and Protosses that have some chance. Yes thank you. I've said it before, but please enjoy the endless ZvZs when Flash hangs up his mouse. Other than him, I've only ever felt good about Baby.. still not sure about Last, though he's far far far and away the only other candidate right now. | ||
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NoS-Craig
Australia3093 Posts
Game 3 was won by clutch irradiates and a sick, sick pimpest play mine-snipe beneath the ramp. JD's build was fairly good IMO, I think the idea was to keep the pressure up with hydra/ling for as long as possible while maintaining the economy to switch to mutas. Last was just prepared and hung on by a pretty thin thread on several occasions. Glad someone else spotted this. That mine was about to take 1-2 tanks and a pack of marines with it. Sick as fuck play. | ||
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NotJumperer
United States1371 Posts
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flyingrat
43 Posts
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/633gJKs.png) | ||
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StarscreamG1
Portugal1653 Posts
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dibban
Sweden1279 Posts
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TiQ.SinGi
Norway385 Posts
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SlayerS_BunkiE
Canada1707 Posts
On September 08 2018 22:08 Jumperer wrote: However, just because you reach perfection doesn't mean you should auto-win almost every game by simply defending from cheese/timing attacks and then get to the late game. You literally can't beat S-tier terran at the top of his game without figuring out something in the meta game or come up with a one time cheese that will never work again. Funny I thought in TvZ, its Z who is trying its damndest to get to late game for dark swarm | ||
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Essbee
Canada2371 Posts
On September 08 2018 22:08 Jumperer wrote: Terran vs Zerg at the highest level has been solved and it favor Terran. Zerg can't really deal with terran's multiple tech options and switches. Irradiates is broken. Zerg has to significantly outplay terran to win. To the guy who said Terran isnt OP because there's no up and coming player in the past. Sorry to break it to you but you really don't understand this game. S tier terran players have dominated starcraft since boxer because Terran is the best race at S tier level. T>Z=>P. When played near perfection, Terran win. Of course there are times when we have a dominant protoss or a dominant zerg at the highest level, but that's mostly because they were revolutionary or their playstyle happens to beat the metagame at the time. Eventually they get downloaded and then rekt by a terran. Look at all the bonjwa, It's essentially all terran players. At A tier level and below, terran is not the best. In fact, I'll take an A level protoss over an A level terran player. The lower you go the weaker terran become because it's a race that require perfections. However, just because you reach perfection doesn't mean you should auto-win almost every game by simply defending from cheese/timing attacks and then get to the late game. You literally can't beat S-tier terran at the top of his game without figuring out something in the meta game or come up with a one time cheese that will never work again. When I watched bisu play at his peak I didn't have this feeling that he's going to win. Guy was walking on a tightrope trying to cut corners against zerg using insane probe control to block his wall against 6 lings with one cannon. When I watched oov, nada, flash play at their peak I knew that they would win once they survive the timing attack/cheese. Savior was dominating by doing magical psychological mindgame shits. The terran bonjwa aside from boxer was mainly abusing terran's OPness. If you really "understood the game" you would have guessed that a terran player would win the KSL. Have you seen the map pool? I called that a terran would win rather easily (surprised it wasn't a TvT finals tbh). I also called that terrans would be annihilated during the ASL5 (because of the maps) and it so obviously happened. Also, nevermind the fact that last was simply better and that jaedong refused to use defilers for some reason. Historically, maps have favored terran players for some reason, you can look it up if you want. There are tons of anti-terran maps but they end up being never used because they are "unbalanced". My question for you: Where were you during the ASL5 to complain about terran? | ||
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CobaltBlu
United States919 Posts
I hope KSL drops the winner picks map format for next season. I don't think it is healthy. | ||
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kaspa84
Brazil169 Posts
On September 08 2018 18:02 ShloobeR wrote: I feel like there's no reason to muta clump if there are no marines and few turrets Thought the same. | ||
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kaspa84
Brazil169 Posts
On September 08 2018 20:02 De4ngus wrote: It honestly feels like the matchups are really polarized right now. 4-0 vs Rain, the current best protoss, into 0-4 against Last? I guess the KSL format doesn't help either, but we've been seeing basically every terran besides Flash getting rolled over by protoss as well for some time now. If Soulkey and Jaedong couldn't beat Last, I'm scared of what Flash is going to do to the poor zergs. This. User was warned for this post. | ||
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Miragee
8493 Posts
Can't believe Bisudagger and BigFan were right. I hate you guys. The KSL format is the main offender here with the map pool. As the winner of the first game you can keep picking good maps for you/your map pool. People expected a lot of one-sided affairs, which turned out the be true. | ||
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LuckyFool
United States9015 Posts
The series had insane momentum shift from the very first game when Jaedong was about to get momentum he suicided lurkers which caused him to not only lose that game but map choice as well to the most Terran favored map in the pool, 0-2 is a tough hole to start digging out of from what felt like a single mistake in game 1 | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
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Terrorbladder
2717 Posts
and wtf the result :s | ||
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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
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JoinTheRain
Bulgaria408 Posts
The finals, even though the score is like it is, seem to me to be misleading. Two of the victories, games 1 and 3, were so close that my mind was racing "What's going to happen here? Who will win? Come on!" I didn't have an inclination to neither player, I just had slight hopes for entertaining games and the players delivered. Congratulations to the winner, well deserved after all the effort and sacrifices that have been made. There has to be a loser in any competition but he fell with no shame. Even though we all know this is not the pinnacle of JD's abilities, it was a worthy try. Not that KSL folk will read this but I have to express my gratitude to their labor. It is indeed highly appreciated. Thank you and I can hardly wait for the next season! | ||
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Incomplete..ReV
Norway632 Posts
And shoutout to Artosis and Tasteless - loved their energy this cast! Really kept it pumped up, lovely commenting and...just awesome! Would of course be more fun if JD was able to win at least one game and if there was one game that was kinda "standard", but fantstic display of skill and entertainment nonetheless! :D | ||
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FlaShFTW
United States10123 Posts
Delial idk wtf you’re spewing. If Terran was so strong then why are there only two good Terrans right now in FlaSh and Last? Why can’t we ever credit the player who practiced so hard, tried new builds and strategies to win this finals? | ||
KadaverBB
Germany25657 Posts
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rand0MPrecisi0n
313 Posts
On September 08 2018 19:53 darktreb wrote: The interesting thing about "Terran OP" complaints is that for a long time now, Terran has been held up by one or two elite players, but otherwise would be on the precipice of extinction. Flash and Fantasy singlehandedly held up Terran in the final two years of BW. It was the only race that didn't really have up and comers. While Bogus (aka Innovation) and Last probably get to elite status if BW stays alive, in 2011, the status of Terrans outside of the top two (Flash and Fantasy) was nowhere near as good as the status of Zerg or Protoss outside of their top two players (it's not even clear who the top 2 Zergs or Protoss were by that time). Here's a list of every player to make final 4 at the 9 Brood War OSL + MSLs played from 2010 until the end of BW (in mid 2012): Terran: * Flash * Fantasy * Light Zerg: * Zero * Hydra * soO * Calm * Modesty * Jaedong * Effort * Hydra * great Protoss: * Jangbi * Stork * free * Pure * Kal It would be fascinating if Flash and Last went to army at the same time. It could be an extinction event for Terran. I like Mind a lot but he's not a league winning threat in the current era. Same goes for guys like Sea, Light, Sharp, etc. Whereas there's a smattering of Zergs and Protosses that have some chance. Great post. People forget how much a few players did for Terran. To me, the biggest problem of this finals was the winner picks next map format | ||
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konadora
Singapore66155 Posts
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prosatan
Romania7930 Posts
On September 09 2018 03:06 konadora wrote: wow last played absolutely perfectly hi kona ! i was thinking about you , to LR like in the old days | ||
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Desmond1
20 Posts
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Holint_Casazr
Germany72 Posts
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
I'm divided between whether this is Last reading JD or S-level positioning. What sets JD apart from other "modern era" Zergs is that he loves making small positional gambles that he believes his micro and reflexes can carry him through. This makes JD very efficient with his units (and makes his playstyle a joy to watch), but it also sets him up for punishment if his opponent can exploit that correctly. We saw Last exploit that to a T (heh heh) today. Maybe Last did this because he intuitively "knows" it's the optimal positional move (sacrificing a little position to bait a move-out) or because he understands JD's positional style almost as well as Flash understood JD's build orders. But either way, I haven't seen this ability to induce mistakes in his opponent in any player since peak Savior or Flash. | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8632 Posts
On September 08 2018 19:24 ShloobeR wrote: Well the point is I'm assuming he wasn't teching to lurkers because he had already made up his mind to go ultras. If he had no intention of going ultras he would have started the hydra den / lurker tech earlier without a doubt Considering he already had knowledge that the push was going to be quite tank heavy (and he had already lowered the vessel count a little bit), his decision to go ultras at any point just makes no sense to me. I guess we'll just have to disagree. when he decided to tech to ultras he only had the resources for 1 tech tree. if he chooses defilers he has to defend with muta-ling only, as he does not have the money to put up lurker tech simultaneously. this is an issue of him deciding to open mutas and being able to do 0 dmg, on top of last not giving him the time to tech anyway. aside from the pressure of risking not having defilers out quick enough, he has to face a number of vessel that dont need to irradiate anything else, and his only army is mutaling which can get outmaneuvered by sk terran quite easily. i think jd made the right choice given his circumstances. brute forcing battles just until his 4th gas is running was his best chance. he lasted a couple of fights only but i think he wouldnt have even lasted 1 if he opted for defilers without lurkers. | ||
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SuperCyan
Philippines67 Posts
Damn. so sad. Not even a single win Has been and always will be a Jaedong fan. To the death. In his top form or not, Gun to my head, I'd pick The Tyrant all my Life. | ||
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Djabanete
United States2786 Posts
In cases where it doesn't matter who picks, then it doesn't matter. In cases where it does matter who picks, then loser-picks-map makes it more likely for both players to show their best. Regarding the outcome, I always figured it was a matter of time before Last won a big league, even though I really really wanted Jaedong to win this one. So congratulations to Last for his hard work and extremely solid play. He's definitely a worthy competitor, and perhaps this will end his reputation (?) for not playing well in offline matches. | ||
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Just_a_Moth
Canada1948 Posts
On September 09 2018 03:41 Shady Sands wrote: It's really disappointing that folks would rather balance whine than comment about the sheer brilliance in some of Last's play. The reaction he pulled in game 1 to JD's ling backstab was just wonderful - he did what a Flash would usually do - pull the minimum forces needed to defend back to his nat - but on top of that, he feigned a mistake and pulled the rest of his army onto the plateau overlooking JD's 3rd to bait JD's lurkers out. I'm divided between whether this is Last reading JD or S-level positioning. What sets JD apart from other "modern era" Zergs is that he loves making small positional gambles that he believes his micro and reflexes can carry him through. This makes JD very efficient with his units (and makes his playstyle a joy to watch), but it also sets him up for punishment if his opponent can exploit that correctly. We saw Last exploit that to a T (heh heh) today. Maybe Last did this because he intuitively "knows" it's the optimal positional move (sacrificing a little position to bait a move-out) or because he understands JD's positional style almost as well as Flash understood JD's build orders. But either way, I haven't seen this ability to induce mistakes in his opponent in any player since peak Savior or Flash. Last still might have won game 1, but Jaedong lost that game when he suicided his lurkers. | ||
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TaardadAiel
Bulgaria750 Posts
On September 09 2018 03:41 Shady Sands wrote: It's really disappointing that folks would rather balance whine than comment about the sheer brilliance in some of Last's play. The reaction he pulled in game 1 to JD's ling backstab was just wonderful - he did what a Flash would usually do - pull the minimum forces needed to defend back to his nat - but on top of that, he feigned a mistake and pulled the rest of his army onto the plateau overlooking JD's 3rd to bait JD's lurkers out. I'm divided between whether this is Last reading JD or S-level positioning. What sets JD apart from other "modern era" Zergs is that he loves making small positional gambles that he believes his micro and reflexes can carry him through. This makes JD very efficient with his units (and makes his playstyle a joy to watch), but it also sets him up for punishment if his opponent can exploit that correctly. We saw Last exploit that to a T (heh heh) today. Maybe Last did this because he intuitively "knows" it's the optimal positional move (sacrificing a little position to bait a move-out) or because he understands JD's positional style almost as well as Flash understood JD's build orders. But either way, I haven't seen this ability to induce mistakes in his opponent in any player since peak Savior or Flash. Thank you, it's not just me. And I would say it was S-level positioning. Taking the high ground with no overlords present, being the only way out for lurkers, was the best thing to do and he did it. Moreover, he did not just assume defensive posture up there, but he explicitly waited for the lurkers he knew would come and pounced on them. People berate JD for making a "blunder" that cost him the game; really, it was just really good tactical play and situational awareness from Last. Give him credit, guys, there is only one other Terran doing that stuff consistently and we all know who he is. | ||
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letian
Germany4221 Posts
On September 09 2018 03:41 Shady Sands wrote: It's really disappointing that folks would rather balance whine than comment about the sheer brilliance in some of Last's play. The reaction he pulled in game 1 to JD's ling backstab was just wonderful - he did what a Flash would usually do - pull the minimum forces needed to defend back to his nat - but on top of that, he feigned a mistake and pulled the rest of his army onto the plateau overlooking JD's 3rd to bait JD's lurkers out. I'm divided between whether this is Last reading JD or S-level positioning. What sets JD apart from other "modern era" Zergs is that he loves making small positional gambles that he believes his micro and reflexes can carry him through. This makes JD very efficient with his units (and makes his playstyle a joy to watch), but it also sets him up for punishment if his opponent can exploit that correctly. We saw Last exploit that to a T (heh heh) today. Maybe Last did this because he intuitively "knows" it's the optimal positional move (sacrificing a little position to bait a move-out) or because he understands JD's positional style almost as well as Flash understood JD's build orders. But either way, I haven't seen this ability to induce mistakes in his opponent in any player since peak Savior or Flash. He almost lost game 1 ffs please. | ||
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letian
Germany4221 Posts
On September 09 2018 03:06 konadora wrote: wow last played absolutely perfectly He did. If only he did it consistently. But it appears that he can only be that good vs zergs. | ||
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letian
Germany4221 Posts
I thought JD had a good chance of taking this KSL in the absense of Flash but guess he goes to military with a silver. | ||
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KamMoye
United States721 Posts
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Tappo
101 Posts
On September 09 2018 07:31 letian wrote: It's funny that Last mentions his fans in the final speech but you hear barely any cheers after his victory. Sad series for both of them. I thought JD had a good chance of taking this KSL in the absense of Flash but guess he goes to military with a silver. This is reality. The audience is not there for the gameplay | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19225 Posts
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perrin144
United States5 Posts
It's really disappointing that folks would rather balance whine than comment about the sheer brilliance in some of Last's play. The reaction he pulled in game 1 to JD's ling backstab was just wonderful - he did what a Flash would usually do - pull the minimum forces needed to defend back to his nat - but on top of that, he feigned a mistake and pulled the rest of his army onto the plateau overlooking JD's 3rd to bait JD's lurkers out. I'm divided between whether this is Last reading JD or S-level positioning. What sets JD apart from other "modern era" Zergs is that he loves making small positional gambles that he believes his micro and reflexes can carry him through. This makes JD very efficient with his units (and makes his playstyle a joy to watch), but it also sets him up for punishment if his opponent can exploit that correctly. We saw Last exploit that to a T (heh heh) today. Maybe Last did this because he intuitively "knows" it's the optimal positional move (sacrificing a little position to bait a move-out) or because he understands JD's positional style almost as well as Flash understood JD's build orders. But either way, I haven't seen this ability to induce mistakes in his opponent in any player since peak Savior or Flash. JD also made some positional mistakes with the lurkers in game 1 that set the tone for the rest of the series. | ||
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Starecat
935 Posts
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RKC
2848 Posts
Two questions on my mind now: 1. Is Last's TvZ as good (or even better) than Flash? 2. Is Soulkey better at ZvT than JD (especially in light of their KSL matches against Last)? | ||
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The Intrepid
Canada205 Posts
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De4ngus
United States6533 Posts
On September 09 2018 11:50 RKC wrote: Very well-played, Last! AlphaGo download back on track? Two questions on my mind now: 1. Is Last's TvZ as good (or even better) than Flash? 2. Is Soulkey better at ZvT than JD (especially in light of their KSL matches against Last)? Soulkey has always had better ZvT | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On September 09 2018 11:50 RKC wrote: Very well-played, Last! AlphaGo download back on track? Two questions on my mind now: 1. Is Last's TvZ as good (or even better) than Flash? 2. Is Soulkey better at ZvT than JD (especially in light of their KSL matches against Last)? There are some aspects of the game where Last is better than Flash (such as his manipulation of air units like Valkyries), but overall, Flash has a better terran-versus-zerg match-up. Last's meticulous attention to unit manipulation makes him more appear stronger under specific situations, but one cannot extrapolate specific situations to paint a larger picture. + Show Spoiler + The above video has Flash explaining the impact Soulkey's zerg-versus-terran ability specifically in terms of his own evolution as a gamer. Flash said even during his absolute prime, while Jaedong was a greater opponent as a whole, especially due to his early game prowess, Soulkey was in possession of a methodical late-game prowess that even Jaedong could not touch. Flash said that Soulkey's orthodox decision making had the biggest impression on him out of almost any player he faced during his professional years, and once he was able to overcome Soulkey during practice, he was able to overcome Jaedong in their many finals, as long as he didn't suffer critical damage earlier on. Now that Jaedong's mechanical prowess is mostly gone, Soulkey is clearly head and shoulders above Jaedong in terms of his zerg-versus-terran prowess, and has shown that time and time again. Of course, Jaedong still has the upper hand within the zerg-versus-zerg match-up, but Soulkey's pride as a gamer has always been his immaculate zerg-versus-terran ability. | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
On September 09 2018 13:17 Letmelose wrote: There are some aspects of the game where Last is better than Flash (such as his manipulation of air units like Valkyries), but overall, Flash has a better terran-versus-zerg match-up. Last's meticulous attention to unit manipulation makes him more appear stronger under specific situations, but one cannot extrapolate specific situations to paint a larger picture. + Show Spoiler + https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9Pp8AwNKAU The above video has Flash explaining the impact Soulkey's zerg-versus-terran ability specifically in terms of his own evolution as a gamer. Flash said even during his absolute prime, while Jaedong was a greater opponent as a whole, especially due to his early game prowess, Soulkey was in possession of a methodical late-game prowess that even Jaedong could not touch. Flash said that Soulkey's orthodox decision making had the biggest impression on him out of almost any player he faced during his professional years, and once he was able to overcome Soulkey during practice, he was able to overcome Jaedong in their many finals, as long as he didn't suffer critical damage earlier on. Now that Jaedong's mechanical prowess is mostly gone, Soulkey is clearly head and shoulders above Jaedong in terms of his zerg-versus-terran prowess, and has shown that time and time again. Of course, Jaedong still has the upper hand within the zerg-versus-zerg match-up, but Soulkey's pride as a gamer has always been his immaculate zerg-versus-terran ability. Thanks for the insights! It's nice to know what a supreme Zerg that Soulkey is. I always feel he's unfairly underrated, both in BW and SC2. Somehow, his cerebral and methodological play-style doesn't endear to fans as much as flashy Zergs such as JD, Rogue, Life, et al. Sure, the flashy Zergs tend to produce more results - and that's arguably due to their risky and volatile plays. SK is an unsung villain. He's like the Count Dooku of Starcraft. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50107 Posts
On September 08 2018 16:59 BLinD-RawR wrote: yellow jinxed us | ||
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whaski
Finland576 Posts
On September 09 2018 07:31 letian wrote: It's funny that Last mentions his fans in the final speech but you hear barely any cheers after his victory. Sad series for both of them. I thought JD had a good chance of taking this KSL in the absense of Flash but guess he goes to military with a silver. So Last should have lost to Jaedong to gain respect? It doesn't matter that he took one month of streaming to just practice for Ksl. And he is blame for sweeping his opponent. Yeah, really sad. | ||
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
Have some respect for a player who's actually dedicated a ton of time practicing off stream for this. Someone mentioned that Last turned off his stream for a month. You guys realize that's a lot of money that he's lost just for the chance of making it far and winning KSL which is not a guarantee in this era. That first game was impressive from both sides. More Jaedong early on with the sunken push, ling runby etc... however, Last sending back a small amount of his army to deal with the lings and keeping the rest at the top of the ramp, away from OL vision (wouldn't make sense for JD to run into an army when he has visiion) since he realizes that Jaedong has to pass through there with the lurkers then sniping them was amazing as hell. Have people already forgotten how Flash baited hero's mutalisks in game 4 through his army movement in the ASL4 finals? There it was called brilliant, here it gets overlooked. Then game 2, what does Last do after he went for the 8 rax in game 1? He goes for the greediest opener you can do as Terran, realizing that Jaedong might play defensively. It's much like Jaedong did to Rain with all the different variations in their series. Only difference is that Last was doing it to Jaedong in this case. Then Jaedong for some reason morphs his sunkens too late and gets busted at the third. Skip to game 3, we see Last do a 1-1-1 vs the 9 pool. Jaedong caused Last to lose some mining time and killed 2? marines so it's wasn't all bad, but Last recovered quite well and he got a great read on Jaedong, getting the bunkers up, defending the bust etc... Here's 2 things that were missed and I could be wrong on the first, but there was a chance that Last researched the science vessels start with +50 energy upgrade too. I'll have to rewatch the game to look at the timings and see when he got the vessels and how much time elapsed till the mutas hit. For me, that would explain why he had lots of energy banked up, enough for 4 irradiates from 2? vessels. Second which was extremely mine was a sick mine snipe. Last almost lost 2 tanks and some marines to 2 mines he had nearby. He realized it and sniped them right before they were going to explode as a zergling got in range. That would've been a gg moment and Jaedong would've taken the game since that was Last's last line of defense. As for game 4, someone asked for a macro game so you got one. 1-1-1 with Last keeping up on his macro and playing well. I'd have liked to see SK Terran in a long drawn out match, like Sea vs Killer, but I can live with it because Last played fantastically too. In short, give credit where its due. It's much like Flash asking the fans to give Snow credit when he beat him last ASL, now it's time to give Last some respect. Before Flash came along, he was considered the best terran and even after, he was almost always considered the second best except when Mind showed some brilliant games here and there. As for 1-1-1, the build is versatile, however, it's extremely difficult to use because there are timings to abuse. The Flash interview that TL did a while back explains it in much detail. On September 08 2018 18:04 figq wrote: Well, if they were anti-jinxing... it turned out they jinxed it. Nah, I wasn't trying to reverse-jinx. As much as I love JD, I've been wanting Last to win a championship since the SSL10 days. The 4-0 might have been a bit of a stretch but, whoever wins game 1 takes a huge mental lead and Last played fantastically to beat SK who imo, has a better ZvT than Jaedong so it was still a rare possibility. Glad I was right. On September 09 2018 01:10 Miragee wrote: Man, I thought Jaedong played so damn perfect in g1. He handled that push to perfection and had a brilliant counter. He made all the right moves and then loses the game by making that horrendous mistake and losing 3-4 lurkers for nothing. That game made me mad because it shows the very worst side of this match-up. Last made quite a few mistakes that game and JD played near perfect but one wrong move and he lost. Bleh. After that it went downward. His other 3 games were not sharp at all. Lots of mistakes from Jaedong with some signs of brilliance while Last played very solid with some amazing plays (that mine snipe :o). Jaedong never managed to do anything with his mutas which ultimately lost him g3 and 4. The whole series was a real let down after g1. Can't believe Bisudagger and BigFan were right. I hate you guys. haha sorry! The better player won! | ||
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b0lt
United States790 Posts
On September 09 2018 16:10 BigFan wrote: there was a chance that Last researched the science vessels start with +50 energy upgrade too. No, that's impossible. The upgrade takes forever: in the time it takes to research, you can build two vessels. (also, it's not +50 energy at spawn, it's +50 max and they spawn with 25% energy, so it's only 12.5 energy initially) | ||
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Dante08
Singapore4126 Posts
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Kaolla
China2999 Posts
Shame we didnt get to see any 'standard' games... User was warned for this post. | ||
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REDBLUEGREEN
Germany1903 Posts
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Kaolla
China2999 Posts
On September 09 2018 18:55 REDBLUEGREEN wrote: Come on guys. Last has undeniably and consistently been the 2nd best player in online sponmatches during the last 2 years or so. He also has a 70% winrate against JD in spongames. The only question was if Last will finally overcome his stage fright. Stage fright my ass. He didnt play all that well, was just the dong being shit. Soulkey would've done a better job... Unfortunately he also eliminated himself with his silly rushes.... | ||
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whaski
Finland576 Posts
On September 09 2018 19:39 Kaolla wrote: Stage fright my ass. He didnt play all that well, was just the dong being shit. Soulkey would've done a better job... Unfortunately he also eliminated himself with his silly rushes.... I don't get it... So everyone is playing shit. Last won a tournament because everyone else was bad. Jaedong played badly because he didn't play like he did during Kespa-era? So Last had an easy match up because It is not Kespa-era? | ||
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SlayerS_BunkiE
Canada1707 Posts
lololol | ||
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Miragee
8493 Posts
On September 09 2018 19:39 Kaolla wrote: Stage fright my ass. He didnt play all that well, was just the dong being shit. Soulkey would've done a better job... Unfortunately he also eliminated himself with his silly rushes.... Did you watch the Semi finals at all? Soulkey lost in the exact same fashion. As a previous poster mentioned, some of the matches were really close. Really not much difference between Last vs Soulkey and Last vs Jaedong, only that Soulkey managed to swing 2 matches into his favour. Neither Jaedong nor Soulkey played to their full potential (post Kespa) though, I would agree on that. | ||
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SlayerS_BunkiE
Canada1707 Posts
On September 09 2018 19:57 whaski wrote: I don't get it... So everyone is playing shit. Last won a tournament because everyone else was bad. Jaedong played badly because he didn't play like he did during Kespa-era? So Last had an easy match up because It is not Kespa-era? Dont mind him, he thinks macroing m&m is easy.. | ||
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REDBLUEGREEN
Germany1903 Posts
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Starecat
935 Posts
Lol that's true Yellow cheered for JD we should have predicted the score earlier. | ||
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intotheheart
Canada33091 Posts
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SlayerS_BunkiE
Canada1707 Posts
On September 09 2018 21:44 intotheheart wrote: I'm sure someone else has asked but how were the actual games? Did they feel as crushing as a 4-0 makes it look? Nope. As someone else pointed out, it was a close 4-0. You should watch all games if you have time | ||
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Miragee
8493 Posts
On September 09 2018 21:44 intotheheart wrote: I'm sure someone else has asked but how were the actual games? Did they feel as crushing as a 4-0 makes it look? Kinda, g2 and 4 surely did. | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/news-archive/148017-msl-summit-of-the-symphony http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/bw-tournaments/147792-msl-grand-final So much passion running through the threads. Even the TL writers were openly discussing and bantering about 'map balance'. Maybe the balance whine got overboard somewhere along the way. Maybe there were dark days in TL that I didn't live through. But you know what? I wish I could've lived through those times, dark or bright. Passion overflowing (positive or negative) is better than no passion at all. It's just like the recent World Cup which ended rather anti-climatically (depends on how you view it). Instead of focusing on Pogba or Mbappe's wonder strikes, people were hotly arguing about VAR, the refereeing, play-acting. And you know what? Football is full of passion because of such talk. Or take the recent women's US Open. Yes, Naomi Osaka should be talk of town - but Serena Williams' meltdown just adds so much colour and drama to the game. Some people choose to applaud Last's play, some people choose to lament on JD's weakened play, some people chose to talk about balance. To each their own. Each commentary invokes the passion of BW in their own way. And we should let the passion flow... Passion aside, I feel that balance is an integral part of gameplay. Did Last play amazing well? Did JD flop? Without context, I wouldn't know. Remember, BW is not a symmetrical game. I genuinely want to know if the meta or map favours one race or another, so that I can appreciate the results even more. And balance talks deepen my contextual understanding. Yes, for the old-timers, you may be sick of balance talk. If you are, just ignore it. I'm a bigger fan of football than BW. I've been following football for decades, and funnily enough, I never grow tired of debating with people and friends over refereeing, VAR, et all. Such talk may seem academic and pointless, but they're not. After decades of whining, we finally got instant replay (i.e. VAR) in football. Is it good or bad? The debate rages on. Maybe BW will never be 'patched' again. But the maps will be reviewed. Balance talk never gets old. It only dies when the sport itself dies. And I wouldn't want that happen to BW. (Sorry, I don't mean to touch on the sensitive subject of balance. I just felt like explaining where I'm coming from) | ||
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Dante08
Singapore4126 Posts
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SC_ar
United States35 Posts
JD made an amazing run, featuring multiple comeback wins. ASL6 is shaping up good. | ||
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Delial1986
29 Posts
On September 09 2018 22:32 RKC wrote: Some people choose to applaud Last's play, some people choose to lament on JD's weakened play, some people chose to talk about balance. To each their own. Each commentary invokes the passion of BW in their own way. And we should let the passion flow... Passion aside, I feel that balance is an integral part of gameplay. Did Last play amazing well? Did JD flop? Without context, I wouldn't know. Remember, BW is not a symmetrical game. I genuinely want to know if the meta or map favours one race or another, so that I can appreciate the results even more. And balance talks deepen my contextual understanding. As a passionate BW follower, and also football fan, I agree. I've just received 2 warning for balance "whine" - feels funny that you are being forced into "we don't talk about this", but well, anyway, I enjoyed this balance discussion while it LASTed. On September 09 2018 02:44 FlaShFTW wrote: Can we have an SC2 rule where balance whiners get warnings into temp bans into permas? Jesus the absolute atrocity of this thread is horrifying. Delial idk wtf you’re spewing. If Terran was so strong then why are there only two good Terrans right now in FlaSh and Last? Why can’t we ever credit the player who practiced so hard, tried new builds and strategies to win this finals? I guess BW world looks different from perspective of Flash fanboy, but well I will never know. | ||
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NoS-Craig
Australia3093 Posts
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TaardadAiel
Bulgaria750 Posts
On September 09 2018 20:23 REDBLUEGREEN wrote: Last going through the replays on his stream right now. It would be nice if someone could give some insights! | ||
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JieXian
Malaysia4677 Posts
On September 09 2018 03:41 Shady Sands wrote: It's really disappointing that folks would rather balance whine than comment about the sheer brilliance in some of Last's play. The reaction he pulled in game 1 to JD's ling backstab was just wonderful - he did what a Flash would usually do - pull the minimum forces needed to defend back to his nat - but on top of that, he feigned a mistake and pulled the rest of his army onto the plateau overlooking JD's 3rd to bait JD's lurkers out. I'm divided between whether this is Last reading JD or S-level positioning. What sets JD apart from other "modern era" Zergs is that he loves making small positional gambles that he believes his micro and reflexes can carry him through. This makes JD very efficient with his units (and makes his playstyle a joy to watch), but it also sets him up for punishment if his opponent can exploit that correctly. We saw Last exploit that to a T (heh heh) today. Maybe Last did this because he intuitively "knows" it's the optimal positional move (sacrificing a little position to bait a move-out) or because he understands JD's positional style almost as well as Flash understood JD's build orders. But either way, I haven't seen this ability to induce mistakes in his opponent in any player since peak Savior or Flash. I was watching the game as a JD fan but I, too suspected that Last might have did some next level shit in g1 with that retreat. This is in line with how, in every game, Last was able to read JD perfectly and reacted so well to every trick JD had in his book. Additionally JD was slow to split his mutas when they were irradiated. (Is it even necessary to stack them when you know they don't have a huge bio army yet, and you know they would have vessels out?) Last just outplayed JD in the series. I'm sad as a JD fan but happy as a BW fan for the great games. | ||
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batsnacks
United States4466 Posts
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TaardadAiel
Bulgaria750 Posts
On September 10 2018 10:50 batsnacks wrote: lol 'next level' Last almost lost an easy game 1 then JD did gimmick builds for the rest of the series cause he was tilted by a bunker rush. quality of games was shocking for a bo7 finals. Care to elaborate on said "gimmick" builds? And how you deduced JD got "tilted"? I say he played 3 very solid games (game two was absurd). | ||
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Motivate
2860 Posts
Jaedong did a ling counter attack in the main and Last initially looked like he was retreating. Then he stopped retreating and I thought he was just being indecisive. But instead he camped on top of the high ground. JD took a gamble going up the high ground and got punished. It was a pretty genius idea by Last but unfortunately everyone just says how "stupid" JD was for running up the high ground. I guess on one hand I'm happy Last played so well. On the other hand he's a cat person so that's pretty disappointing. | ||
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Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
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De4ngus
United States6533 Posts
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
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De4ngus
United States6533 Posts
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Miragee
8493 Posts
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larra
Germany44 Posts
Yes it is imbalance and I'm not whining. Since when it's whining if one gives his own opinion ? Teamliquid was not like this before. | ||
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Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
On September 12 2018 03:08 larra wrote: agree. the flipside of this though is that once zerg gets defilier it is much harder for terran to win. the game has become way too binary and figured out: zerg is impossibly behind in an economic sense unless there mutas do disproportionate amounts of damage, then they have to hide behind dark swarm. Thats zvt. Use mutas to overcome the fact that terran is strategically far ahead of zerg/has infinitely more options, adaptability etc, and then use a rigged unit while cowering. no amount of map shenanigans are going to change the fact that terran can do whatever the fuck they want and zerg only have four options:I watched this final after a long break from starcraft. It's almost over 10 years now from the golden age, I was in early 30s back then. I'm an old guy now and while I feel glad and nostalgic seeing jaedong again, the game seems somewhat pointless to me. Terran has too many options early game, middle game and end game, it is so obvious that anyone who understands statistics knows that it has the upper hand, given equal skills from both sides . Yes it is imbalance and I'm not whining. Since when it's whining if one gives his own opinion ? Teamliquid was not like this before. 2 hatch lurker 2 hatch muta 3 hatch lurker 3 hatch muta damn what a good "strategy" game. User was warned for this post. | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8632 Posts
On September 12 2018 03:14 Dazed. wrote: agree. the flipside of this though is that once zerg gets defilier it is much harder for terran to win. the game has become way too binary and figured out: zerg is impossibly behind in an economic sense unless there mutas do disproportionate amounts of damage, then they have to hide behind dark swarm. Thats zvt. Use mutas to overcome the fact that terran is strategically far ahead of zerg/has infinitely more options, adaptability etc, and then use a rigged unit while cowering. no amount of map shenanigans are going to change the fact that terran can do whatever the fuck they want and zerg only have four options: 2 hatch lurker 2 hatch muta 3 hatch lurker 3 hatch muta damn what a good "strategy" game. User was warned for this post. i see you complain about lack of strategy or depth quite a lot. the game is not "way too binary". just because you dont understand the game doesnt make the game bad. you think all it takes to be a pro is memorising build orders and maximising production efficiency or something? stop belittling their skills. if anything is binary its only your understanding of how to play | ||
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
On September 12 2018 03:14 Dazed. wrote: agree. the flipside of this though is that once zerg gets defilier it is much harder for terran to win. the game has become way too binary and figured out: zerg is impossibly behind in an economic sense unless there mutas do disproportionate amounts of damage, then they have to hide behind dark swarm. Thats zvt. Use mutas to overcome the fact that terran is strategically far ahead of zerg/has infinitely more options, adaptability etc, and then use a rigged unit while cowering. no amount of map shenanigans are going to change the fact that terran can do whatever the fuck they want and zerg only have four options: 2 hatch lurker 2 hatch muta 3 hatch lurker 3 hatch muta damn what a good "strategy" game. User was warned for this post. well, game one and three wasnt any of the above. Game 2 was triple hatch before pool. Havent seen g4 yet, but you kinda picked the wrong series to complain over repetitive zerg builds. | ||
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Greg_J
China4409 Posts
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Mirabel_
United States1768 Posts
but i can't avoid being shaken by the fact that JD went 4-0 into 0-4 in a completely fair competitive setting. even if it had been some no-name instead of my single favorite player i would have been sad as hell watching that narrative unfold high level series though | ||
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Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
On September 12 2018 14:52 Geo.Rion wrote: not a standard build or even a standard reaction to what he scouted, nor did it work. Are you seriously going to play some silly little game with me? No dazed, there is a lot of strategical options with zerg, I mean afterall, we now have a new build that came out since 1-1-1 was developed! 3 hatch lairerless hydra all in!!well, game one and three wasnt any of the above. Game 2 was triple hatch before pool. Havent seen g4 yet, but you kinda picked the wrong series to complain over repetitive zerg builds. Thats not a build. Its just a reaction, a very confined one, the same with double expanding in response to 14cc. Zergs only have four options. 2 hatch muta. 2 hatch lurker. 3 hatch muta. 3 hatch lurker. Everything else is either non viable, super contextually dependent reactions, or only marginally different enough, a terran only has to change his timings slightly to adjust, i.e 2.5 hatch. Terrans can entirely change the nature of the game in a hundred different ways, zergs have four binary options and only one of them is any good, really. 90% of zvt's are 3 hatch muta* and have been for 10+ years. And no, this isnt balance whining: the results speak for themselves you pathetic little moderators. The game is balanced. But its balanced because of maps and a few key rigged units. Result balance doesnt mean the game is strategically balanced. The fact that terran has a hundred more options and does factually get far away and ahead of the zerg economy [to the point where terrans can viably pressure a zerg so hard they can take several bases and switch their entire infrastructure...] and is still going 50% because zerg has defiliers and mutalisk micro is a flaw in game design. A big one, and one thats getting more noticeable with every stale 3 hatch muta into defilier year after year, decade after decade. *and 90% of those games are 12 hatch openers! User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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TaardadAiel
Bulgaria750 Posts
On September 13 2018 00:45 Dazed. wrote: not a standard build or even a standard reaction to what he scouted, nor did it work. Are you seriously going to play some silly little game with me? No dazed, there is a lot of strategical options with zerg, I mean afterall, we now have a new build that came out since 1-1-1 was developed! 3 hatch lairerless hydra all in!! Thats not a build. Its just a reaction, a very confined one, the same with double expanding in response to 14cc. Zergs only have four options. 2 hatch muta. 2 hatch lurker. 3 hatch muta. 3 hatch lurker. Everything else is either non viable, super contextually dependent reactions, or only marginally different enough, a terran only has to change his timings slightly to adjust, i.e 2.5 hatch. Terrans can entirely change the nature of the game in a hundred different ways, zergs have four binary options and only one of them is any good, really. 90% of zvt's are 3 hatch muta* and have been for 10+ years. And no, this isnt balance whining: the results speak for themselves you pathetic little moderators. The game is balanced. But its balanced because of maps and a few key rigged units. Result balance doesnt mean the game is strategically balanced. The fact that terran has a hundred more options and does factually get far away and ahead of the zerg economy [to the point where terrans can viably pressure a zerg so hard they can take several bases and switch their entire infrastructure...] and is still going 50% because zerg has defiliers and mutalisk micro is a flaw in game design. A big one, and one thats getting more noticeable with every stale 3 hatch muta into defilier year after year, decade after decade. *and 90% of those games are 12 hatch openers! The game is strategically flawed when a race has a spell that basically negates 90% of the direct damage from units another race has, is that what you're saying? Please, quit with the whining, the game has been great for 20 years and has seen a bunch of amazing players from all three races. And then there's forum gurus who complain about staleness. The scene may be small, but it can certainly do without a member who actually dislikes the game. This is so far possibly the greatest RTS game in the history of games, having a life of its own. Blizzard have resorted to quality of life changes for the past 10+ years because of that. So, the power is in the scene's hands to change the meta. Maybe you can? And "four binary" just sounds... wrong. | ||
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Eywa-
Canada4876 Posts
On September 12 2018 10:21 evilfatsh1t wrote: i see you complain about lack of strategy or depth quite a lot. the game is not "way too binary". just because you dont understand the game doesnt make the game bad. you think all it takes to be a pro is memorising build orders and maximising production efficiency or something? stop belittling their skills. if anything is binary its only your understanding of how to play Way too binary is a bit of an overstatement, but it's not entirely wrong. I believe there's a video where Day9 talks about this actually where he indicates that there are a lot of early game options, very few mid game options and many late game options. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong. >< Something like that? Basically, mid-game ZvT should always be relatively similar with the Terran pushing and the Zerg trying to buy time with similar unit compositions on either side, then Zerg gains localized advantages with Dark Swarm and is able to build out their economy. Now, it's easy to see given how frequently games go through this mid-game phase how people can develop this viewpoint. | ||
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Barneyk
Sweden305 Posts
On September 10 2018 21:38 Motivate wrote: Now that I'm rewatching it, I think Tastosis (and all of us for that matter) didn't give Last enough credit for game one. Jaedong did a ling counter attack in the main and Last initially looked like he was retreating. Then he stopped retreating and I thought he was just being indecisive. But instead he camped on top of the high ground. JD took a gamble going up the high ground and got punished. It was a pretty genius idea by Last but unfortunately everyone just says how "stupid" JD was for running up the high ground. I guess on one hand I'm happy Last played so well. On the other hand he's a cat person so that's pretty disappointing. It was really disappointing to see such a fantastic game end on such a fatal blunder from Jaedong. Even if it was a genius play by Last, Jaedong should've been more careful. And of course, that is easy to say now in hindsight. But his reaction was really slow and he didn't even attempt to bring them back for several seconds, it was a really bad play by Jaedong. And sure, Broodwar is a really taxing game and a big part of the game is to make your opponent do bad plays and exploit it as much as possible. But when every other part of that game was so tense and well done by both players it felt like a very anti-climactic ending. And I feel like Jaedong never recovered. Last simply had the edge on him build wise and is a more consistent player at the moment. I am happy for Last and it is great to see him finally get a win after being so consistently good for so long. But man, Jaedong getting 1 more gold would've probably been the best thing that happened in my Broodwar watching history. EDIT: And I can't believe this "balance" discussion, I thought 20 years of the game would've put us past that. | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8632 Posts
On September 13 2018 02:34 Eywa- wrote: Way too binary is a bit of an overstatement, but it's not entirely wrong. I believe there's a video where Day9 talks about this actually where he indicates that there are a lot of early game options, very few mid game options and many late game options. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong. >< Something like that? Basically, mid-game ZvT should always be relatively similar with the Terran pushing and the Zerg trying to buy time with similar unit compositions on either side, then Zerg gains localized advantages with Dark Swarm and is able to build out their economy. Now, it's easy to see given how frequently games go through this mid-game phase how people can develop this viewpoint. this is the problem with like 90% of starcraft players. they think build orders are all memorised and set in stone; that 9/10 games that employ a single build (ie 3 hatch muta) all follow the exact path, are executed at the exact same supply numbers and always end up with 9+2 mutas. they think the game is pretty much automated until you hit mid game. then according to dazed, because of "lack of strategy", it becomes a game where you just mass produce units and collide head on with the opponent. that still doesnt make sense because which units to produce and how you use them are also part of "strategy" but whatever. this is such a massive simplification of the thought and mind games that go into every game starting from the beginning. a couple examples from jd vs rain: jd vs rain game 1: rain pushes with 2 early zealots and ends up entering jd's main. the zealots end up dying but rain would have noticed that 2 drones spawned out of the hatchery while he was fighting. if they were zerglings rain would have taken into account a higher zergling count and not pushed a 2nd time with a handful of zealots. but because he saw drones, he decides to push once more. jd specifically took note of the fact that rain would have seen the drones and make the decision to push a 2nd time, which is why he produced like 15? or so zerglings and parked them right outside zealot line of vision as rain moved out of his nat. 2 drones spawning out of a hatchery and rain's acknowledgement of that led to a chain reaction of mind games that ended up with jd abusing the fact that rain got this knowledge. yes, the build order was standard but this is still part of the early game. jd vs rain game 3: rain saw that jd took 2nd gas early (already a slight deviation in build path), and eventually commits to more cannons than required because he got mind-gamed into thinking that jd was definitely going to build mutas. jd didnt and obviously benefits from the fact that rain crippled himself economically for no reason. theres also things like the fact that you never open 2-1-1 as terran on spawn locations where zerg scouts in 1 go (on fs, T1 Z11 for example). the fact that overlords can sit over the natural cliff that early and see your expansion timing is bad for 2-1-1 as your expansion is later than usual and zerg can see something is going on. the above are 3 examples off the top of my head out of literally thousands. no game is clear cut and no game is automated from the beginning. if you think starcraft is just about build order scissors paper rock and having fast fingers then youre an idiot. if youre whining about lack of build variety or unit variety then just dont play any game at all. dota/lol/sc/sc2/wc3 etc all have units and "build orders" that are not viable for whatever reason at the highest level. its unavoidable when efficiency becomes more and more important at the highest skill levels | ||
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Li_Xin
51 Posts
On September 13 2018 00:45 Dazed. wrote: not a standard build or even a standard reaction to what he scouted, nor did it work. Are you seriously going to play some silly little game with me? No dazed, there is a lot of strategical options with zerg, I mean afterall, we now have a new build that came out since 1-1-1 was developed! 3 hatch lairerless hydra all in!! Thats not a build. Its just a reaction, a very confined one, the same with double expanding in response to 14cc. Zergs only have four options. 2 hatch muta. 2 hatch lurker. 3 hatch muta. 3 hatch lurker. Everything else is either non viable, super contextually dependent reactions, or only marginally different enough, a terran only has to change his timings slightly to adjust, i.e 2.5 hatch. Terrans can entirely change the nature of the game in a hundred different ways, zergs have four binary options and only one of them is any good, really. 90% of zvt's are 3 hatch muta* and have been for 10+ years. And no, this isnt balance whining: the results speak for themselves you pathetic little moderators. The game is balanced. But its balanced because of maps and a few key rigged units. Result balance doesnt mean the game is strategically balanced. The fact that terran has a hundred more options and does factually get far away and ahead of the zerg economy [to the point where terrans can viably pressure a zerg so hard they can take several bases and switch their entire infrastructure...] and is still going 50% because zerg has defiliers and mutalisk micro is a flaw in game design. A big one, and one thats getting more noticeable with every stale 3 hatch muta into defilier year after year, decade after decade. *and 90% of those games are 12 hatch openers! User was temp banned for this post. He is right about TL moderators being pathetic though. Always have been and looks like they always will be. | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On September 13 2018 13:43 Li_Xin wrote: He is right about TL moderators being pathetic though. Always have been and looks like they always will be. If you have a problem with moderation, take it to website feedback otherwise refrain from this random bashing. | ||
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Jealous
10115 Posts
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TaardadAiel
Bulgaria750 Posts
Light defeating JD soundly in his group - np, Light's a TvZ specialist and JD is not in his prime. JD narrowly defeating Light in the rematch - yay, JD still got it. Last, coming from defeating the best ZvTer there is right now, beating JD - the game is strategically flawed and lacks depth. Bias at its finest, though I have to say that it takes effort to not be biased in favour of JD. Guy has such charisma. Still not an argument for the above, anyway. | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
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ProMeTheus112
France2027 Posts
there are limits in the strategic balance, or internal balance as i think of it, which are becoming more and more obvious as they seem to barely ever be effectively challenged as P user this is a problem vs Z mostly (not that there aren't notable strategic limitations to pvt or pvp), but whenever I watch ZvT i find it too bad. of course zvz is pretty bad strategically too. It's not crap, still best real time strategy game, still far above SC2, still has limits also TL moderation is tedious, ofc we can only talk about it in a buried thread, but they can paint red warnings on your post when they just don't agree, whatever i barely post on TL | ||
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JieXian
Malaysia4677 Posts
On September 13 2018 16:05 TaardadAiel wrote: Interesting turn of events. Light defeating JD soundly in his group - np, Light's a TvZ specialist and JD is not in his prime. JD narrowly defeating Light in the rematch - yay, JD still got it. Last, coming from defeating the best ZvTer there is right now, beating JD - the game is strategically flawed and lacks depth. Bias at its finest, though I have to say that it takes effort to not be biased in favour of JD. Guy has such charisma. Still not an argument for the above, anyway. Yes if Flash were the one to beat JD there would have been comments about how Flash was a god and how he baited JD's lurkers up the ramp in G1 and all that. Instead many of us aren't giving Last the credit he deserves. It really sucks to be Last in this way... Guys, if ZvT were so imbalanced how did two out of three zergs get into the semis, beating Sharp, and one of the top TvZ players, Light in the process? | ||
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Delial1986
29 Posts
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darktreb
United States3016 Posts
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Archaeo
United States397 Posts
On September 13 2018 02:34 Eywa- wrote: Way too binary is a bit of an overstatement, but it's not entirely wrong. I believe there's a video where Day9 talks about this actually where he indicates that there are a lot of early game options, very few mid game options and many late game options. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong. >< Something like that? Basically, mid-game ZvT should always be relatively similar with the Terran pushing and the Zerg trying to buy time with similar unit compositions on either side, then Zerg gains localized advantages with Dark Swarm and is able to build out their economy. Now, it's easy to see given how frequently games go through this mid-game phase how people can develop this viewpoint. Pretty much this. I would say that Zerg has very little options early game that don't involve cheese; you have to play reactionary (and no I'm not saying T and P are not reactionary in any way, but rather they control the match up vs. Z in most standard cases.) Any small mistake in timing (or for that matter micro) by Zerg will pretty much lose the game for you (ex. lurk, muta, ling timing/micro and defiler timing, etc). Basically you buy time in both matchups if they're being played out in standard. That said, I don't understand how anyone could think Terran doesn't control the game by having more opening options than Zerg. You work with less units as Zerg, yet you need to do a lot more with them so that you don't fall behind. | ||
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M2
Bulgaria4115 Posts
On September 14 2018 05:00 Archaeo wrote: Pretty much this. I would say that Zerg has very little options early game that don't involve cheese; you have to play reactionary (and no I'm not saying T and P are not reactionary in any way, but rather they control the match up vs. Z in most standard cases.) Any small mistake in timing (or for that matter micro) by Zerg will pretty much lose the game for you (ex. lurk, muta, ling timing/micro and defiler timing, etc). Basically you buy time in both matchups if they're being played out in standard. That said, I don't understand how anyone could think Terran doesn't control the game by having more opening options than Zerg. You work with less units as Zerg, yet you need to do a lot more with them so that you don't fall behind. this does not apply for ZvP, in ZvP, Zerg has all the early and early mid game options, this is why imo PvZ is so hard for Protoss, because in these phases the only option protoss has to deal with any zerg aggression is the cannon and the cannon is a structure, it may or may not stop the zerg attack & strat, but it does not pose any threat to the zerg. So zergs can try many tricks and when they work zerg wins, when they do not work, zerg is slightly behind in the worst case | ||
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Motivate
2860 Posts
On September 14 2018 04:28 darktreb wrote: For all the people complaining about lack of midgame options for Zerg in ZvT, what do you see as Terran's options in TvP? Yea I don’t understand how a lot of balance whiners are Protoss players - you would think they would be Zergs. They don’t seem to realise that TvP is a crazy hard match up for Terran. Carriers AND arbiters on Third World? Lol. | ||
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![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/211.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/664.jpg)
