EPTTwo questions on my mind now:
1. Is Last's TvZ as good (or even better) than Flash?
2. Is Soulkey better at ZvT than JD (especially in light of their KSL matches against Last)?
[KSL] Grand Finals: Last vs Jaedong - Page 21
| Forum Index > Brood War Tournaments |
The balance whining is starting to get out of hand. TL has always had a "zero tolerance" policy when it comes to addressing balance whine. Please be wary of what you post because we will be handing out mod actions now. | ||
|
RKC
2848 Posts
Two questions on my mind now: 1. Is Last's TvZ as good (or even better) than Flash? 2. Is Soulkey better at ZvT than JD (especially in light of their KSL matches against Last)? | ||
|
The Intrepid
Canada205 Posts
| ||
|
De4ngus
United States6533 Posts
On September 09 2018 11:50 RKC wrote: Very well-played, Last! AlphaGo download back on track? Two questions on my mind now: 1. Is Last's TvZ as good (or even better) than Flash? 2. Is Soulkey better at ZvT than JD (especially in light of their KSL matches against Last)? Soulkey has always had better ZvT | ||
|
Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On September 09 2018 11:50 RKC wrote: Very well-played, Last! AlphaGo download back on track? Two questions on my mind now: 1. Is Last's TvZ as good (or even better) than Flash? 2. Is Soulkey better at ZvT than JD (especially in light of their KSL matches against Last)? There are some aspects of the game where Last is better than Flash (such as his manipulation of air units like Valkyries), but overall, Flash has a better terran-versus-zerg match-up. Last's meticulous attention to unit manipulation makes him more appear stronger under specific situations, but one cannot extrapolate specific situations to paint a larger picture. + Show Spoiler + The above video has Flash explaining the impact Soulkey's zerg-versus-terran ability specifically in terms of his own evolution as a gamer. Flash said even during his absolute prime, while Jaedong was a greater opponent as a whole, especially due to his early game prowess, Soulkey was in possession of a methodical late-game prowess that even Jaedong could not touch. Flash said that Soulkey's orthodox decision making had the biggest impression on him out of almost any player he faced during his professional years, and once he was able to overcome Soulkey during practice, he was able to overcome Jaedong in their many finals, as long as he didn't suffer critical damage earlier on. Now that Jaedong's mechanical prowess is mostly gone, Soulkey is clearly head and shoulders above Jaedong in terms of his zerg-versus-terran prowess, and has shown that time and time again. Of course, Jaedong still has the upper hand within the zerg-versus-zerg match-up, but Soulkey's pride as a gamer has always been his immaculate zerg-versus-terran ability. | ||
|
RKC
2848 Posts
On September 09 2018 13:17 Letmelose wrote: There are some aspects of the game where Last is better than Flash (such as his manipulation of air units like Valkyries), but overall, Flash has a better terran-versus-zerg match-up. Last's meticulous attention to unit manipulation makes him more appear stronger under specific situations, but one cannot extrapolate specific situations to paint a larger picture. + Show Spoiler + https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9Pp8AwNKAU The above video has Flash explaining the impact Soulkey's zerg-versus-terran ability specifically in terms of his own evolution as a gamer. Flash said even during his absolute prime, while Jaedong was a greater opponent as a whole, especially due to his early game prowess, Soulkey was in possession of a methodical late-game prowess that even Jaedong could not touch. Flash said that Soulkey's orthodox decision making had the biggest impression on him out of almost any player he faced during his professional years, and once he was able to overcome Soulkey during practice, he was able to overcome Jaedong in their many finals, as long as he didn't suffer critical damage earlier on. Now that Jaedong's mechanical prowess is mostly gone, Soulkey is clearly head and shoulders above Jaedong in terms of his zerg-versus-terran prowess, and has shown that time and time again. Of course, Jaedong still has the upper hand within the zerg-versus-zerg match-up, but Soulkey's pride as a gamer has always been his immaculate zerg-versus-terran ability. Thanks for the insights! It's nice to know what a supreme Zerg that Soulkey is. I always feel he's unfairly underrated, both in BW and SC2. Somehow, his cerebral and methodological play-style doesn't endear to fans as much as flashy Zergs such as JD, Rogue, Life, et al. Sure, the flashy Zergs tend to produce more results - and that's arguably due to their risky and volatile plays. SK is an unsung villain. He's like the Count Dooku of Starcraft. | ||
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50601 Posts
On September 08 2018 16:59 BLinD-RawR wrote: yellow jinxed us | ||
|
whaski
Finland577 Posts
On September 09 2018 07:31 letian wrote: It's funny that Last mentions his fans in the final speech but you hear barely any cheers after his victory. Sad series for both of them. I thought JD had a good chance of taking this KSL in the absense of Flash but guess he goes to military with a silver. So Last should have lost to Jaedong to gain respect? It doesn't matter that he took one month of streaming to just practice for Ksl. And he is blame for sweeping his opponent. Yeah, really sad. | ||
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
Have some respect for a player who's actually dedicated a ton of time practicing off stream for this. Someone mentioned that Last turned off his stream for a month. You guys realize that's a lot of money that he's lost just for the chance of making it far and winning KSL which is not a guarantee in this era. That first game was impressive from both sides. More Jaedong early on with the sunken push, ling runby etc... however, Last sending back a small amount of his army to deal with the lings and keeping the rest at the top of the ramp, away from OL vision (wouldn't make sense for JD to run into an army when he has visiion) since he realizes that Jaedong has to pass through there with the lurkers then sniping them was amazing as hell. Have people already forgotten how Flash baited hero's mutalisks in game 4 through his army movement in the ASL4 finals? There it was called brilliant, here it gets overlooked. Then game 2, what does Last do after he went for the 8 rax in game 1? He goes for the greediest opener you can do as Terran, realizing that Jaedong might play defensively. It's much like Jaedong did to Rain with all the different variations in their series. Only difference is that Last was doing it to Jaedong in this case. Then Jaedong for some reason morphs his sunkens too late and gets busted at the third. Skip to game 3, we see Last do a 1-1-1 vs the 9 pool. Jaedong caused Last to lose some mining time and killed 2? marines so it's wasn't all bad, but Last recovered quite well and he got a great read on Jaedong, getting the bunkers up, defending the bust etc... Here's 2 things that were missed and I could be wrong on the first, but there was a chance that Last researched the science vessels start with +50 energy upgrade too. I'll have to rewatch the game to look at the timings and see when he got the vessels and how much time elapsed till the mutas hit. For me, that would explain why he had lots of energy banked up, enough for 4 irradiates from 2? vessels. Second which was extremely mine was a sick mine snipe. Last almost lost 2 tanks and some marines to 2 mines he had nearby. He realized it and sniped them right before they were going to explode as a zergling got in range. That would've been a gg moment and Jaedong would've taken the game since that was Last's last line of defense. As for game 4, someone asked for a macro game so you got one. 1-1-1 with Last keeping up on his macro and playing well. I'd have liked to see SK Terran in a long drawn out match, like Sea vs Killer, but I can live with it because Last played fantastically too. In short, give credit where its due. It's much like Flash asking the fans to give Snow credit when he beat him last ASL, now it's time to give Last some respect. Before Flash came along, he was considered the best terran and even after, he was almost always considered the second best except when Mind showed some brilliant games here and there. As for 1-1-1, the build is versatile, however, it's extremely difficult to use because there are timings to abuse. The Flash interview that TL did a while back explains it in much detail. On September 08 2018 18:04 figq wrote: Well, if they were anti-jinxing... it turned out they jinxed it.  Nah, I wasn't trying to reverse-jinx. As much as I love JD, I've been wanting Last to win a championship since the SSL10 days. The 4-0 might have been a bit of a stretch but, whoever wins game 1 takes a huge mental lead and Last played fantastically to beat SK who imo, has a better ZvT than Jaedong so it was still a rare possibility. Glad I was right. On September 09 2018 01:10 Miragee wrote: Man, I thought Jaedong played so damn perfect in g1. He handled that push to perfection and had a brilliant counter. He made all the right moves and then loses the game by making that horrendous mistake and losing 3-4 lurkers for nothing. That game made me mad because it shows the very worst side of this match-up. Last made quite a few mistakes that game and JD played near perfect but one wrong move and he lost. Bleh. After that it went downward. His other 3 games were not sharp at all. Lots of mistakes from Jaedong with some signs of brilliance while Last played very solid with some amazing plays (that mine snipe :o). Jaedong never managed to do anything with his mutas which ultimately lost him g3 and 4. The whole series was a real let down after g1. Can't believe Bisudagger and BigFan were right. I hate you guys. haha sorry! The better player won! | ||
|
b0lt
United States790 Posts
On September 09 2018 16:10 BigFan wrote: there was a chance that Last researched the science vessels start with +50 energy upgrade too. No, that's impossible. The upgrade takes forever: in the time it takes to research, you can build two vessels. (also, it's not +50 energy at spawn, it's +50 max and they spawn with 25% energy, so it's only 12.5 energy initially) | ||
|
Dante08
Singapore4139 Posts
| ||
|
Kaolla
China2999 Posts
Shame we didnt get to see any 'standard' games... User was warned for this post. | ||
|
REDBLUEGREEN
Germany1904 Posts
| ||
|
Kaolla
China2999 Posts
On September 09 2018 18:55 REDBLUEGREEN wrote: Come on guys. Last has undeniably and consistently been the 2nd best player in online sponmatches during the last 2 years or so. He also has a 70% winrate against JD in spongames. The only question was if Last will finally overcome his stage fright. Stage fright my ass. He didnt play all that well, was just the dong being shit. Soulkey would've done a better job... Unfortunately he also eliminated himself with his silly rushes.... | ||
|
whaski
Finland577 Posts
On September 09 2018 19:39 Kaolla wrote: Stage fright my ass. He didnt play all that well, was just the dong being shit. Soulkey would've done a better job... Unfortunately he also eliminated himself with his silly rushes.... I don't get it... So everyone is playing shit. Last won a tournament because everyone else was bad. Jaedong played badly because he didn't play like he did during Kespa-era? So Last had an easy match up because It is not Kespa-era? | ||
|
SlayerS_BunkiE
Canada1713 Posts
lololol | ||
|
Miragee
8617 Posts
On September 09 2018 19:39 Kaolla wrote: Stage fright my ass. He didnt play all that well, was just the dong being shit. Soulkey would've done a better job... Unfortunately he also eliminated himself with his silly rushes.... Did you watch the Semi finals at all? Soulkey lost in the exact same fashion. As a previous poster mentioned, some of the matches were really close. Really not much difference between Last vs Soulkey and Last vs Jaedong, only that Soulkey managed to swing 2 matches into his favour. Neither Jaedong nor Soulkey played to their full potential (post Kespa) though, I would agree on that. | ||
|
SlayerS_BunkiE
Canada1713 Posts
On September 09 2018 19:57 whaski wrote: I don't get it... So everyone is playing shit. Last won a tournament because everyone else was bad. Jaedong played badly because he didn't play like he did during Kespa-era? So Last had an easy match up because It is not Kespa-era? Dont mind him, he thinks macroing m&m is easy.. | ||
|
REDBLUEGREEN
Germany1904 Posts
| ||
|
Starecat
940 Posts
Lol that's true Yellow cheered for JD we should have predicted the score earlier. | ||
|
intotheheart
Canada33091 Posts
| ||
| ||
