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The balance whining is starting to get out of hand. TL has always had a "zero tolerance" policy when it comes to addressing balance whine. Please be wary of what you post because we will be handing out mod actions now. |
On September 12 2018 03:14 Dazed. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2018 03:08 larra wrote:
I watched this final after a long break from starcraft. It's almost over 10 years now from the golden age, I was in early 30s back then. I'm an old guy now and while I feel glad and nostalgic seeing jaedong again, the game seems somewhat pointless to me. Terran has too many options early game, middle game and end game, it is so obvious that anyone who understands statistics knows that it has the upper hand, given equal skills from both sides .
Yes it is imbalance and I'm not whining. Since when it's whining if one gives his own opinion ? Teamliquid was not like this before. agree. the flipside of this though is that once zerg gets defilier it is much harder for terran to win. the game has become way too binary and figured out: zerg is impossibly behind in an economic sense unless there mutas do disproportionate amounts of damage, then they have to hide behind dark swarm. Thats zvt. Use mutas to overcome the fact that terran is strategically far ahead of zerg/has infinitely more options, adaptability etc, and then use a rigged unit while cowering. no amount of map shenanigans are going to change the fact that terran can do whatever the fuck they want and zerg only have four options: 2 hatch lurker 2 hatch muta 3 hatch lurker 3 hatch muta damn what a good "strategy" game. User was warned for this post.
well, game one and three wasnt any of the above.
Game 2 was triple hatch before pool. Havent seen g4 yet, but you kinda picked the wrong series to complain over repetitive zerg builds.
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The result made me a little sad. But despite the score there were some geat games and flashes of genius on display. Last played smart games is in good form and truely deserved to win. 0-4 hurts though.
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last is easily my favorite terran and i'm glad he finally broke gold. since he started streaming i've always thought he was lightning fast, intelligent, and underrated with a long way to go. i'd actually favored him to take SSL10 when Snow got eliminated and he only had to practice his sexy-af TvT style
but i can't avoid being shaken by the fact that JD went 4-0 into 0-4 in a completely fair competitive setting. even if it had been some no-name instead of my single favorite player i would have been sad as hell watching that narrative unfold
high level series though
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On September 12 2018 14:52 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2018 03:14 Dazed. wrote:On September 12 2018 03:08 larra wrote:
I watched this final after a long break from starcraft. It's almost over 10 years now from the golden age, I was in early 30s back then. I'm an old guy now and while I feel glad and nostalgic seeing jaedong again, the game seems somewhat pointless to me. Terran has too many options early game, middle game and end game, it is so obvious that anyone who understands statistics knows that it has the upper hand, given equal skills from both sides .
Yes it is imbalance and I'm not whining. Since when it's whining if one gives his own opinion ? Teamliquid was not like this before. agree. the flipside of this though is that once zerg gets defilier it is much harder for terran to win. the game has become way too binary and figured out: zerg is impossibly behind in an economic sense unless there mutas do disproportionate amounts of damage, then they have to hide behind dark swarm. Thats zvt. Use mutas to overcome the fact that terran is strategically far ahead of zerg/has infinitely more options, adaptability etc, and then use a rigged unit while cowering. no amount of map shenanigans are going to change the fact that terran can do whatever the fuck they want and zerg only have four options: 2 hatch lurker 2 hatch muta 3 hatch lurker 3 hatch muta damn what a good "strategy" game. User was warned for this post. well, game one and three wasnt any of the above. Game 2 was triple hatch before pool. Havent seen g4 yet, but you kinda picked the wrong series to complain over repetitive zerg builds. not a standard build or even a standard reaction to what he scouted, nor did it work. Are you seriously going to play some silly little game with me? No dazed, there is a lot of strategical options with zerg, I mean afterall, we now have a new build that came out since 1-1-1 was developed! 3 hatch lairerless hydra all in!!
Thats not a build. Its just a reaction, a very confined one, the same with double expanding in response to 14cc. Zergs only have four options. 2 hatch muta. 2 hatch lurker. 3 hatch muta. 3 hatch lurker. Everything else is either non viable, super contextually dependent reactions, or only marginally different enough, a terran only has to change his timings slightly to adjust, i.e 2.5 hatch.
Terrans can entirely change the nature of the game in a hundred different ways, zergs have four binary options and only one of them is any good, really. 90% of zvt's are 3 hatch muta* and have been for 10+ years. And no, this isnt balance whining: the results speak for themselves you pathetic little moderators. The game is balanced. But its balanced because of maps and a few key rigged units. Result balance doesnt mean the game is strategically balanced. The fact that terran has a hundred more options and does factually get far away and ahead of the zerg economy [to the point where terrans can viably pressure a zerg so hard they can take several bases and switch their entire infrastructure...] and is still going 50% because zerg has defiliers and mutalisk micro is a flaw in game design. A big one, and one thats getting more noticeable with every stale 3 hatch muta into defilier year after year, decade after decade.
*and 90% of those games are 12 hatch openers!
User was temp banned for this post.
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Bulgaria750 Posts
On September 13 2018 00:45 Dazed. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2018 14:52 Geo.Rion wrote:On September 12 2018 03:14 Dazed. wrote:On September 12 2018 03:08 larra wrote:
I watched this final after a long break from starcraft. It's almost over 10 years now from the golden age, I was in early 30s back then. I'm an old guy now and while I feel glad and nostalgic seeing jaedong again, the game seems somewhat pointless to me. Terran has too many options early game, middle game and end game, it is so obvious that anyone who understands statistics knows that it has the upper hand, given equal skills from both sides .
Yes it is imbalance and I'm not whining. Since when it's whining if one gives his own opinion ? Teamliquid was not like this before. agree. the flipside of this though is that once zerg gets defilier it is much harder for terran to win. the game has become way too binary and figured out: zerg is impossibly behind in an economic sense unless there mutas do disproportionate amounts of damage, then they have to hide behind dark swarm. Thats zvt. Use mutas to overcome the fact that terran is strategically far ahead of zerg/has infinitely more options, adaptability etc, and then use a rigged unit while cowering. no amount of map shenanigans are going to change the fact that terran can do whatever the fuck they want and zerg only have four options: 2 hatch lurker 2 hatch muta 3 hatch lurker 3 hatch muta damn what a good "strategy" game. User was warned for this post. well, game one and three wasnt any of the above. Game 2 was triple hatch before pool. Havent seen g4 yet, but you kinda picked the wrong series to complain over repetitive zerg builds. not a standard build or even a standard reaction to what he scouted, nor did it work. Are you seriously going to play some silly little game with me? No dazed, there is a lot of strategical options with zerg, I mean afterall, we now have a new build that came out since 1-1-1 was developed! 3 hatch lairerless hydra all in!! Thats not a build. Its just a reaction, a very confined one, the same with double expanding in response to 14cc. Zergs only have four options. 2 hatch muta. 2 hatch lurker. 3 hatch muta. 3 hatch lurker. Everything else is either non viable, super contextually dependent reactions, or only marginally different enough, a terran only has to change his timings slightly to adjust, i.e 2.5 hatch. Terrans can entirely change the nature of the game in a hundred different ways, zergs have four binary options and only one of them is any good, really. 90% of zvt's are 3 hatch muta* and have been for 10+ years. And no, this isnt balance whining: the results speak for themselves you pathetic little moderators. The game is balanced. But its balanced because of maps and a few key rigged units. Result balance doesnt mean the game is strategically balanced. The fact that terran has a hundred more options and does factually get far away and ahead of the zerg economy [to the point where terrans can viably pressure a zerg so hard they can take several bases and switch their entire infrastructure...] and is still going 50% because zerg has defiliers and mutalisk micro is a flaw in game design. A big one, and one thats getting more noticeable with every stale 3 hatch muta into defilier year after year, decade after decade. *and 90% of those games are 12 hatch openers!
The game is strategically flawed when a race has a spell that basically negates 90% of the direct damage from units another race has, is that what you're saying?
Please, quit with the whining, the game has been great for 20 years and has seen a bunch of amazing players from all three races. And then there's forum gurus who complain about staleness. The scene may be small, but it can certainly do without a member who actually dislikes the game. This is so far possibly the greatest RTS game in the history of games, having a life of its own. Blizzard have resorted to quality of life changes for the past 10+ years because of that. So, the power is in the scene's hands to change the meta. Maybe you can?
And "four binary" just sounds... wrong.
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On September 12 2018 10:21 evilfatsh1t wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2018 03:14 Dazed. wrote:On September 12 2018 03:08 larra wrote:
I watched this final after a long break from starcraft. It's almost over 10 years now from the golden age, I was in early 30s back then. I'm an old guy now and while I feel glad and nostalgic seeing jaedong again, the game seems somewhat pointless to me. Terran has too many options early game, middle game and end game, it is so obvious that anyone who understands statistics knows that it has the upper hand, given equal skills from both sides .
Yes it is imbalance and I'm not whining. Since when it's whining if one gives his own opinion ? Teamliquid was not like this before. agree. the flipside of this though is that once zerg gets defilier it is much harder for terran to win. the game has become way too binary and figured out: zerg is impossibly behind in an economic sense unless there mutas do disproportionate amounts of damage, then they have to hide behind dark swarm. Thats zvt. Use mutas to overcome the fact that terran is strategically far ahead of zerg/has infinitely more options, adaptability etc, and then use a rigged unit while cowering. no amount of map shenanigans are going to change the fact that terran can do whatever the fuck they want and zerg only have four options: 2 hatch lurker 2 hatch muta 3 hatch lurker 3 hatch muta damn what a good "strategy" game. User was warned for this post. i see you complain about lack of strategy or depth quite a lot. the game is not "way too binary". just because you dont understand the game doesnt make the game bad. you think all it takes to be a pro is memorising build orders and maximising production efficiency or something? stop belittling their skills. if anything is binary its only your understanding of how to play
Way too binary is a bit of an overstatement, but it's not entirely wrong. I believe there's a video where Day9 talks about this actually where he indicates that there are a lot of early game options, very few mid game options and many late game options. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong.
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Something like that? Basically, mid-game ZvT should always be relatively similar with the Terran pushing and the Zerg trying to buy time with similar unit compositions on either side, then Zerg gains localized advantages with Dark Swarm and is able to build out their economy.
Now, it's easy to see given how frequently games go through this mid-game phase how people can develop this viewpoint.
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On September 10 2018 21:38 Motivate wrote:
Now that I'm rewatching it, I think Tastosis (and all of us for that matter) didn't give Last enough credit for game one.
Jaedong did a ling counter attack in the main and Last initially looked like he was retreating. Then he stopped retreating and I thought he was just being indecisive. But instead he camped on top of the high ground. JD took a gamble going up the high ground and got punished. It was a pretty genius idea by Last but unfortunately everyone just says how "stupid" JD was for running up the high ground.
I guess on one hand I'm happy Last played so well. On the other hand he's a cat person so that's pretty disappointing.
It was really disappointing to see such a fantastic game end on such a fatal blunder from Jaedong.
Even if it was a genius play by Last, Jaedong should've been more careful. And of course, that is easy to say now in hindsight. But his reaction was really slow and he didn't even attempt to bring them back for several seconds, it was a really bad play by Jaedong.
And sure, Broodwar is a really taxing game and a big part of the game is to make your opponent do bad plays and exploit it as much as possible. But when every other part of that game was so tense and well done by both players it felt like a very anti-climactic ending.
And I feel like Jaedong never recovered. Last simply had the edge on him build wise and is a more consistent player at the moment.
I am happy for Last and it is great to see him finally get a win after being so consistently good for so long. But man, Jaedong getting 1 more gold would've probably been the best thing that happened in my Broodwar watching history.
EDIT: And I can't believe this "balance" discussion, I thought 20 years of the game would've put us past that.
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On September 13 2018 02:34 Eywa- wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2018 10:21 evilfatsh1t wrote:On September 12 2018 03:14 Dazed. wrote:On September 12 2018 03:08 larra wrote:
I watched this final after a long break from starcraft. It's almost over 10 years now from the golden age, I was in early 30s back then. I'm an old guy now and while I feel glad and nostalgic seeing jaedong again, the game seems somewhat pointless to me. Terran has too many options early game, middle game and end game, it is so obvious that anyone who understands statistics knows that it has the upper hand, given equal skills from both sides .
Yes it is imbalance and I'm not whining. Since when it's whining if one gives his own opinion ? Teamliquid was not like this before. agree. the flipside of this though is that once zerg gets defilier it is much harder for terran to win. the game has become way too binary and figured out: zerg is impossibly behind in an economic sense unless there mutas do disproportionate amounts of damage, then they have to hide behind dark swarm. Thats zvt. Use mutas to overcome the fact that terran is strategically far ahead of zerg/has infinitely more options, adaptability etc, and then use a rigged unit while cowering. no amount of map shenanigans are going to change the fact that terran can do whatever the fuck they want and zerg only have four options: 2 hatch lurker 2 hatch muta 3 hatch lurker 3 hatch muta damn what a good "strategy" game. User was warned for this post. i see you complain about lack of strategy or depth quite a lot. the game is not "way too binary". just because you dont understand the game doesnt make the game bad. you think all it takes to be a pro is memorising build orders and maximising production efficiency or something? stop belittling their skills. if anything is binary its only your understanding of how to play Way too binary is a bit of an overstatement, but it's not entirely wrong. I believe there's a video where Day9 talks about this actually where he indicates that there are a lot of early game options, very few mid game options and many late game options. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong. >< Something like that? Basically, mid-game ZvT should always be relatively similar with the Terran pushing and the Zerg trying to buy time with similar unit compositions on either side, then Zerg gains localized advantages with Dark Swarm and is able to build out their economy. Now, it's easy to see given how frequently games go through this mid-game phase how people can develop this viewpoint.
this is the problem with like 90% of starcraft players. they think build orders are all memorised and set in stone; that 9/10 games that employ a single build (ie 3 hatch muta) all follow the exact path, are executed at the exact same supply numbers and always end up with 9+2 mutas.
they think the game is pretty much automated until you hit mid game. then according to dazed, because of "lack of strategy", it becomes a game where you just mass produce units and collide head on with the opponent. that still doesnt make sense because which units to produce and how you use them are also part of "strategy" but whatever.
this is such a massive simplification of the thought and mind games that go into every game starting from the beginning.
a couple examples from jd vs rain:
jd vs rain game 1: rain pushes with 2 early zealots and ends up entering jd's main. the zealots end up dying but rain would have noticed that 2 drones spawned out of the hatchery while he was fighting. if they were zerglings rain would have taken into account a higher zergling count and not pushed a 2nd time with a handful of zealots. but because he saw drones, he decides to push once more. jd specifically took note of the fact that rain would have seen the drones and make the decision to push a 2nd time, which is why he produced like 15? or so zerglings and parked them right outside zealot line of vision as rain moved out of his nat. 2 drones spawning out of a hatchery and rain's acknowledgement of that led to a chain reaction of mind games that ended up with jd abusing the fact that rain got this knowledge. yes, the build order was standard but this is still part of the early game.
jd vs rain game 3: rain saw that jd took 2nd gas early (already a slight deviation in build path), and eventually commits to more cannons than required because he got mind-gamed into thinking that jd was definitely going to build mutas. jd didnt and obviously benefits from the fact that rain crippled himself economically for no reason.
theres also things like the fact that you never open 2-1-1 as terran on spawn locations where zerg scouts in 1 go (on fs, T1 Z11 for example). the fact that overlords can sit over the natural cliff that early and see your expansion timing is bad for 2-1-1 as your expansion is later than usual and zerg can see something is going on.
the above are 3 examples off the top of my head out of literally thousands. no game is clear cut and no game is automated from the beginning. if you think starcraft is just about build order scissors paper rock and having fast fingers then youre an idiot. if youre whining about lack of build variety or unit variety then just dont play any game at all. dota/lol/sc/sc2/wc3 etc all have units and "build orders" that are not viable for whatever reason at the highest level. its unavoidable when efficiency becomes more and more important at the highest skill levels
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On September 13 2018 00:45 Dazed. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2018 14:52 Geo.Rion wrote:On September 12 2018 03:14 Dazed. wrote:On September 12 2018 03:08 larra wrote:
I watched this final after a long break from starcraft. It's almost over 10 years now from the golden age, I was in early 30s back then. I'm an old guy now and while I feel glad and nostalgic seeing jaedong again, the game seems somewhat pointless to me. Terran has too many options early game, middle game and end game, it is so obvious that anyone who understands statistics knows that it has the upper hand, given equal skills from both sides .
Yes it is imbalance and I'm not whining. Since when it's whining if one gives his own opinion ? Teamliquid was not like this before. agree. the flipside of this though is that once zerg gets defilier it is much harder for terran to win. the game has become way too binary and figured out: zerg is impossibly behind in an economic sense unless there mutas do disproportionate amounts of damage, then they have to hide behind dark swarm. Thats zvt. Use mutas to overcome the fact that terran is strategically far ahead of zerg/has infinitely more options, adaptability etc, and then use a rigged unit while cowering. no amount of map shenanigans are going to change the fact that terran can do whatever the fuck they want and zerg only have four options: 2 hatch lurker 2 hatch muta 3 hatch lurker 3 hatch muta damn what a good "strategy" game. User was warned for this post. well, game one and three wasnt any of the above. Game 2 was triple hatch before pool. Havent seen g4 yet, but you kinda picked the wrong series to complain over repetitive zerg builds. not a standard build or even a standard reaction to what he scouted, nor did it work. Are you seriously going to play some silly little game with me? No dazed, there is a lot of strategical options with zerg, I mean afterall, we now have a new build that came out since 1-1-1 was developed! 3 hatch lairerless hydra all in!! Thats not a build. Its just a reaction, a very confined one, the same with double expanding in response to 14cc. Zergs only have four options. 2 hatch muta. 2 hatch lurker. 3 hatch muta. 3 hatch lurker. Everything else is either non viable, super contextually dependent reactions, or only marginally different enough, a terran only has to change his timings slightly to adjust, i.e 2.5 hatch. Terrans can entirely change the nature of the game in a hundred different ways, zergs have four binary options and only one of them is any good, really. 90% of zvt's are 3 hatch muta* and have been for 10+ years. And no, this isnt balance whining: the results speak for themselves you pathetic little moderators. The game is balanced. But its balanced because of maps and a few key rigged units. Result balance doesnt mean the game is strategically balanced. The fact that terran has a hundred more options and does factually get far away and ahead of the zerg economy [to the point where terrans can viably pressure a zerg so hard they can take several bases and switch their entire infrastructure...] and is still going 50% because zerg has defiliers and mutalisk micro is a flaw in game design. A big one, and one thats getting more noticeable with every stale 3 hatch muta into defilier year after year, decade after decade. *and 90% of those games are 12 hatch openers! User was temp banned for this post.
He is right about TL moderators being pathetic though.
Always have been and looks like they always will be.
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TLADT24920 Posts
On September 13 2018 13:43 Li_Xin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2018 00:45 Dazed. wrote:On September 12 2018 14:52 Geo.Rion wrote:On September 12 2018 03:14 Dazed. wrote:On September 12 2018 03:08 larra wrote:
I watched this final after a long break from starcraft. It's almost over 10 years now from the golden age, I was in early 30s back then. I'm an old guy now and while I feel glad and nostalgic seeing jaedong again, the game seems somewhat pointless to me. Terran has too many options early game, middle game and end game, it is so obvious that anyone who understands statistics knows that it has the upper hand, given equal skills from both sides .
Yes it is imbalance and I'm not whining. Since when it's whining if one gives his own opinion ? Teamliquid was not like this before. agree. the flipside of this though is that once zerg gets defilier it is much harder for terran to win. the game has become way too binary and figured out: zerg is impossibly behind in an economic sense unless there mutas do disproportionate amounts of damage, then they have to hide behind dark swarm. Thats zvt. Use mutas to overcome the fact that terran is strategically far ahead of zerg/has infinitely more options, adaptability etc, and then use a rigged unit while cowering. no amount of map shenanigans are going to change the fact that terran can do whatever the fuck they want and zerg only have four options: 2 hatch lurker 2 hatch muta 3 hatch lurker 3 hatch muta damn what a good "strategy" game. User was warned for this post. well, game one and three wasnt any of the above. Game 2 was triple hatch before pool. Havent seen g4 yet, but you kinda picked the wrong series to complain over repetitive zerg builds. not a standard build or even a standard reaction to what he scouted, nor did it work. Are you seriously going to play some silly little game with me? No dazed, there is a lot of strategical options with zerg, I mean afterall, we now have a new build that came out since 1-1-1 was developed! 3 hatch lairerless hydra all in!! Thats not a build. Its just a reaction, a very confined one, the same with double expanding in response to 14cc. Zergs only have four options. 2 hatch muta. 2 hatch lurker. 3 hatch muta. 3 hatch lurker. Everything else is either non viable, super contextually dependent reactions, or only marginally different enough, a terran only has to change his timings slightly to adjust, i.e 2.5 hatch. Terrans can entirely change the nature of the game in a hundred different ways, zergs have four binary options and only one of them is any good, really. 90% of zvt's are 3 hatch muta* and have been for 10+ years. And no, this isnt balance whining: the results speak for themselves you pathetic little moderators. The game is balanced. But its balanced because of maps and a few key rigged units. Result balance doesnt mean the game is strategically balanced. The fact that terran has a hundred more options and does factually get far away and ahead of the zerg economy [to the point where terrans can viably pressure a zerg so hard they can take several bases and switch their entire infrastructure...] and is still going 50% because zerg has defiliers and mutalisk micro is a flaw in game design. A big one, and one thats getting more noticeable with every stale 3 hatch muta into defilier year after year, decade after decade. *and 90% of those games are 12 hatch openers! User was temp banned for this post. He is right about TL moderators being pathetic though. Always have been and looks like they always will be.
If you have a problem with moderation, take it to website feedback otherwise refrain from this random bashing.
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I wonder why you only ever hear low MMR players making these broad stroke conclusions about the nature of the game and not the progamers (minus a handful of trolly tesagi videos) that have poured thousands of hours into the game and actually got good at it.
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Bulgaria750 Posts
Interesting turn of events.
Light defeating JD soundly in his group - np, Light's a TvZ specialist and JD is not in his prime.
JD narrowly defeating Light in the rematch - yay, JD still got it.
Last, coming from defeating the best ZvTer there is right now, beating JD - the game is strategically flawed and lacks depth.
Bias at its finest, though I have to say that it takes effort to not be biased in favour of JD. Guy has such charisma. Still not an argument for the above, anyway.
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Turns out JD is at the top of Flash's ez zerg list... 
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I would say Dazed is quite right, I think similar
there are limits in the strategic balance, or internal balance as i think of it, which are becoming more and more obvious as they seem to barely ever be effectively challenged
as P user this is a problem vs Z mostly (not that there aren't notable strategic limitations to pvt or pvp), but whenever I watch ZvT i find it too bad. of course zvz is pretty bad strategically too. It's not crap, still best real time strategy game, still far above SC2, still has limits
also TL moderation is tedious, ofc we can only talk about it in a buried thread, but they can paint red warnings on your post when they just don't agree, whatever i barely post on TL
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On September 13 2018 16:05 TaardadAiel wrote:
Interesting turn of events.
Light defeating JD soundly in his group - np, Light's a TvZ specialist and JD is not in his prime.
JD narrowly defeating Light in the rematch - yay, JD still got it.
Last, coming from defeating the best ZvTer there is right now, beating JD - the game is strategically flawed and lacks depth.
Bias at its finest, though I have to say that it takes effort to not be biased in favour of JD. Guy has such charisma. Still not an argument for the above, anyway.
Yes if Flash were the one to beat JD there would have been comments about how Flash was a god and how he baited JD's lurkers up the ramp in G1 and all that. Instead many of us aren't giving Last the credit he deserves. It really sucks to be Last in this way...
Guys, if ZvT were so imbalanced how did two out of three zergs get into the semis, beating Sharp, and one of the top TvZ players, Light in the process?
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Now in ASL we will have Flash, Light, Action and JD in one group and it will be perfect illustration for this discussion.
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For all the people complaining about lack of midgame options for Zerg in ZvT, what do you see as Terran's options in TvP?
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On September 13 2018 02:34 Eywa- wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2018 10:21 evilfatsh1t wrote:On September 12 2018 03:14 Dazed. wrote:On September 12 2018 03:08 larra wrote:
I watched this final after a long break from starcraft. It's almost over 10 years now from the golden age, I was in early 30s back then. I'm an old guy now and while I feel glad and nostalgic seeing jaedong again, the game seems somewhat pointless to me. Terran has too many options early game, middle game and end game, it is so obvious that anyone who understands statistics knows that it has the upper hand, given equal skills from both sides .
Yes it is imbalance and I'm not whining. Since when it's whining if one gives his own opinion ? Teamliquid was not like this before. agree. the flipside of this though is that once zerg gets defilier it is much harder for terran to win. the game has become way too binary and figured out: zerg is impossibly behind in an economic sense unless there mutas do disproportionate amounts of damage, then they have to hide behind dark swarm. Thats zvt. Use mutas to overcome the fact that terran is strategically far ahead of zerg/has infinitely more options, adaptability etc, and then use a rigged unit while cowering. no amount of map shenanigans are going to change the fact that terran can do whatever the fuck they want and zerg only have four options: 2 hatch lurker 2 hatch muta 3 hatch lurker 3 hatch muta damn what a good "strategy" game. User was warned for this post. i see you complain about lack of strategy or depth quite a lot. the game is not "way too binary". just because you dont understand the game doesnt make the game bad. you think all it takes to be a pro is memorising build orders and maximising production efficiency or something? stop belittling their skills. if anything is binary its only your understanding of how to play Way too binary is a bit of an overstatement, but it's not entirely wrong. I believe there's a video where Day9 talks about this actually where he indicates that there are a lot of early game options, very few mid game options and many late game options. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong. >< Something like that? Basically, mid-game ZvT should always be relatively similar with the Terran pushing and the Zerg trying to buy time with similar unit compositions on either side, then Zerg gains localized advantages with Dark Swarm and is able to build out their economy. Now, it's easy to see given how frequently games go through this mid-game phase how people can develop this viewpoint.
Pretty much this. I would say that Zerg has very little options early game that don't involve cheese; you have to play reactionary (and no I'm not saying T and P are not reactionary in any way, but rather they control the match up vs. Z in most standard cases.) Any small mistake in timing (or for that matter micro) by Zerg will pretty much lose the game for you (ex. lurk, muta, ling timing/micro and defiler timing, etc). Basically you buy time in both matchups if they're being played out in standard. That said, I don't understand how anyone could think Terran doesn't control the game by having more opening options than Zerg. You work with less units as Zerg, yet you need to do a lot more with them so that you don't fall behind.
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On September 14 2018 05:00 Archaeo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2018 02:34 Eywa- wrote:On September 12 2018 10:21 evilfatsh1t wrote:On September 12 2018 03:14 Dazed. wrote:On September 12 2018 03:08 larra wrote:
I watched this final after a long break from starcraft. It's almost over 10 years now from the golden age, I was in early 30s back then. I'm an old guy now and while I feel glad and nostalgic seeing jaedong again, the game seems somewhat pointless to me. Terran has too many options early game, middle game and end game, it is so obvious that anyone who understands statistics knows that it has the upper hand, given equal skills from both sides .
Yes it is imbalance and I'm not whining. Since when it's whining if one gives his own opinion ? Teamliquid was not like this before. agree. the flipside of this though is that once zerg gets defilier it is much harder for terran to win. the game has become way too binary and figured out: zerg is impossibly behind in an economic sense unless there mutas do disproportionate amounts of damage, then they have to hide behind dark swarm. Thats zvt. Use mutas to overcome the fact that terran is strategically far ahead of zerg/has infinitely more options, adaptability etc, and then use a rigged unit while cowering. no amount of map shenanigans are going to change the fact that terran can do whatever the fuck they want and zerg only have four options: 2 hatch lurker 2 hatch muta 3 hatch lurker 3 hatch muta damn what a good "strategy" game. User was warned for this post. i see you complain about lack of strategy or depth quite a lot. the game is not "way too binary". just because you dont understand the game doesnt make the game bad. you think all it takes to be a pro is memorising build orders and maximising production efficiency or something? stop belittling their skills. if anything is binary its only your understanding of how to play Way too binary is a bit of an overstatement, but it's not entirely wrong. I believe there's a video where Day9 talks about this actually where he indicates that there are a lot of early game options, very few mid game options and many late game options. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong. >< Something like that? Basically, mid-game ZvT should always be relatively similar with the Terran pushing and the Zerg trying to buy time with similar unit compositions on either side, then Zerg gains localized advantages with Dark Swarm and is able to build out their economy. Now, it's easy to see given how frequently games go through this mid-game phase how people can develop this viewpoint. Pretty much this. I would say that Zerg has very little options early game that don't involve cheese; you have to play reactionary (and no I'm not saying T and P are not reactionary in any way, but rather they control the match up vs. Z in most standard cases.) Any small mistake in timing (or for that matter micro) by Zerg will pretty much lose the game for you (ex. lurk, muta, ling timing/micro and defiler timing, etc). Basically you buy time in both matchups if they're being played out in standard. That said, I don't understand how anyone could think Terran doesn't control the game by having more opening options than Zerg. You work with less units as Zerg, yet you need to do a lot more with them so that you don't fall behind.
this does not apply for ZvP, in ZvP, Zerg has all the early and early mid game options, this is why imo PvZ is so hard for Protoss, because in these phases the only option protoss has to deal with any zerg aggression is the cannon and the cannon is a structure, it may or may not stop the zerg attack & strat, but it does not pose any threat to the zerg. So zergs can try many tricks and when they work zerg wins, when they do not work, zerg is slightly behind in the worst case
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On September 14 2018 04:28 darktreb wrote:
For all the people complaining about lack of midgame options for Zerg in ZvT, what do you see as Terran's options in TvP?
Yea I don’t understand how a lot of balance whiners are Protoss players - you would think they would be Zergs. They don’t seem to realise that TvP is a crazy hard match up for Terran. Carriers AND arbiters on Third World? Lol.
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EPT
