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The balance whining is starting to get out of hand. TL has always had a "zero tolerance" policy when it comes to addressing balance whine. Please be wary of what you post because we will be handing out mod actions now. |
On September 08 2018 19:35 AzAlexZ wrote:
so when JD 4-0'd Rain did ppl bitch about Zerg OP? Or did people bitch about terran OP when Last beat SK?
lol JD fans are just sad that he lost, quit whining, JD did really well even if he lost, second place in 8 years, thats not bad at all
Why ppl don't bitch when JD 4-0 Rain? Because you can find a lot of examples on top level where PvZ can go either way, it's really open. Show me in a recent, lets say 2 year history example of top level Z winning swiftly against top level T like 4:0, or simply long winning streak against T. BW has been pretty much figured out, there won't be some new metgame shift in TvZ, 2 years from now, if people will still play BW you won't be seeing any Zerg with KSL, ASL or other championship titles. I can bet on this.
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On September 08 2018 19:39 Cryoc wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2018 19:27 Motivate wrote:On September 08 2018 19:19 RKC wrote:
No one is saying that Terran is overwhelmingly OP (eg 90% stronger than other races).
Surely in an asymmetrical game, it is less plausible that the matchup between both sides is perfectly 50-50 balanced.
Top Terrans are slightly favoured against top Zergs in most maps (eg 52-55%) - is that an unreasonable assumption given the entire history of BW? Anyway, the discussion was about why that such assumption may be true (eg flexibility of builds). If you don't agree with the assumption, then no need to be bitchy about it. I find it is a very hard match up, yes. There are LOTS of ways for the Zerg to die from simple mistakes. As is the case with TvP or PvZ which are both very difficult for Terran and Protoss respectively (although I note on the previous page you say that Terran has a bag of builds vs protoss which I disagree with). However, a knee jerk response that Terran is overpowered isn't correct either. You don't see people complaining that Protoss is overpowered whenever they beat Terran? Last ASL, Protoss had maps (Third World) where they could abuse both carriers and arbiters. The majority of people play Protoss, so no surprise there.
The interesting thing about "Terran OP" complaints is that for a long time now, Terran has been held up by one or two elite players, but otherwise would be on the precipice of extinction.
Flash and Fantasy singlehandedly held up Terran in the final two years of BW. It was the only race that didn't really have up and comers. While Bogus (aka Innovation) and Last probably get to elite status if BW stays alive, in 2011, the status of Terrans outside of the top two (Flash and Fantasy) was nowhere near as good as the status of Zerg or Protoss outside of their top two players (it's not even clear who the top 2 Zergs or Protoss were by that time).
Here's a list of every player to make final 4 at the 9 Brood War OSL + MSLs played from 2010 until the end of BW (in mid 2012):
Terran:
* Flash
* Fantasy
* Light
Zerg:
* Zero
* Hydra
* soO
* Calm
* Modesty
* Jaedong
* Effort
* Hydra
* great
Protoss:
* Jangbi
* Stork
* free
* Pure
* Kal
It would be fascinating if Flash and Last went to army at the same time. It could be an extinction event for Terran. I like Mind a lot but he's not a league winning threat in the current era. Same goes for guys like Sea, Light, Sharp, etc. Whereas there's a smattering of Zergs and Protosses that have some chance.
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I'm really surprised with all the whining in this thread, people seem to forget how helpless Terrans have looked in this last year . Even in this tournament, Terrans were getting destroyed in the groups (carriers anyone?) . We had Last and Sharp in the Ro8 and Sharp only qualified because of TvT. Even Light, considered a TvZ specialist, was knocked out by 2 zergs.
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Russian Federation483 Posts
On September 08 2018 19:53 Delial1986 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2018 19:35 AzAlexZ wrote:
so when JD 4-0'd Rain did ppl bitch about Zerg OP? Or did people bitch about terran OP when Last beat SK?
lol JD fans are just sad that he lost, quit whining, JD did really well even if he lost, second place in 8 years, thats not bad at all Why ppl don't bitch when JD 4-0 Rain? Because you can find a lot of examples on top level where PvZ can go either way, it's really open. Show me in a recent, lets say 2 year history example of top level Z winning swiftly against top level T like 4:0, or simply long winning streak against T. BW has been pretty much figured out, there won't be some new metgame shift in TvZ, 2 years from now, if people will still play BW you won't be seeing any Zerg with KSL, ASL or other championship titles. I can bet on this.
dude just drop it, TvZ still evolves as we speak, you are pretty clueless about what's going on in BW, it really shows.
let me sum up last year for you
5 rax +1 into mech switch into mass queens into SK terran into hydra guardian bust into 1-1-1(we are currently here)
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It honestly feels like the matchups are really polarized right now. 4-0 vs Rain, the current best protoss, into 0-4 against Last? I guess the KSL format doesn't help either, but we've been seeing basically every terran besides Flash getting rolled over by protoss as well for some time now. If Soulkey and Jaedong couldn't beat Last, I'm scared of what Flash is going to do to the poor zergs.
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On September 08 2018 19:58 chuDr3t4 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2018 19:53 Delial1986 wrote:On September 08 2018 19:35 AzAlexZ wrote:
so when JD 4-0'd Rain did ppl bitch about Zerg OP? Or did people bitch about terran OP when Last beat SK?
lol JD fans are just sad that he lost, quit whining, JD did really well even if he lost, second place in 8 years, thats not bad at all Why ppl don't bitch when JD 4-0 Rain? Because you can find a lot of examples on top level where PvZ can go either way, it's really open. Show me in a recent, lets say 2 year history example of top level Z winning swiftly against top level T like 4:0, or simply long winning streak against T. BW has been pretty much figured out, there won't be some new metgame shift in TvZ, 2 years from now, if people will still play BW you won't be seeing any Zerg with KSL, ASL or other championship titles. I can bet on this. dude just drop it, TvZ still evolves as we speak, you are pretty clueless about what's going on in BW, it really shows. let me sum up last year for you 5 rax +1 into mech switch into mass queens into SK terran into hydra guardian bust into 1-1-1(we are currently here)
TvZ still evolves? I guess into new ways you can beat Z. Time will tell.
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On September 08 2018 20:02 De4ngus wrote:
It honestly feels like the matchups are really polarized right now. 4-0 vs Rain, the current best protoss, into 0-4 against Last? I guess the KSL format doesn't help either, but we've been seeing basically every terran besides Flash getting rolled over by protoss as well for some time now. If Soulkey and Jaedong couldn't beat Last, I'm scared of what Flash is going to do to the poor zergs.
yeah the rock paper scissors match ups have been standing out a lot lately. i'm wondering if it's the lack of the super competitive practice house environment?
during KESPA era it felt much more subtle. protosses could hold hydra busts, zergs wouldn't die mid game as much, and terrans wouldn't roll over and die to carriers
On September 08 2018 20:08 Delial1986 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2018 19:58 chuDr3t4 wrote:On September 08 2018 19:53 Delial1986 wrote:On September 08 2018 19:35 AzAlexZ wrote:
so when JD 4-0'd Rain did ppl bitch about Zerg OP? Or did people bitch about terran OP when Last beat SK?
lol JD fans are just sad that he lost, quit whining, JD did really well even if he lost, second place in 8 years, thats not bad at all Why ppl don't bitch when JD 4-0 Rain? Because you can find a lot of examples on top level where PvZ can go either way, it's really open. Show me in a recent, lets say 2 year history example of top level Z winning swiftly against top level T like 4:0, or simply long winning streak against T. BW has been pretty much figured out, there won't be some new metgame shift in TvZ, 2 years from now, if people will still play BW you won't be seeing any Zerg with KSL, ASL or other championship titles. I can bet on this. dude just drop it, TvZ still evolves as we speak, you are pretty clueless about what's going on in BW, it really shows. let me sum up last year for you 5 rax +1 into mech switch into mass queens into SK terran into hydra guardian bust into 1-1-1(we are currently here) TvZ still evolves? I guess into new ways you can beat Z. Time will tell.
what are you trying to achieve with this posting? ultras are being used a lot lately
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On September 08 2018 20:02 De4ngus wrote:
It honestly feels like the matchups are really polarized right now. 4-0 vs Rain, the current best protoss, into 0-4 against Last? I guess the KSL format doesn't help either, but we've been seeing basically every terran besides Flash getting rolled over by protoss as well for some time now. If Soulkey and Jaedong couldn't beat Last, I'm scared of what Flash is going to do to the poor zergs.
Reading too much into it. Jaedong is a really streaky player, can beat anyone on a given day but at the same time lose in a straight forward manner to a lot of players on another day.
I think KSL has shown us that the format can really help some players (as opposed to ASL where comebacks rarely happen). It was a nice tourney.
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the players make more money streaming than placing in tournaments - it just how it is. How about just enjoy the fact that we still have tournaments to watch
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Cloaked wraiths for defense was OP AF, terrans only have to make like 3 turrets, max.
On top of that, you can chase down mutas as they move away too.
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On September 08 2018 18:49 ShloobeR wrote:
Ahh okay just rewatching it, Ultralisk Chitinous plating upgrade finished while he was killing the first push, so he definitely would have had consume/lurker out
Defiler mound requires 90gs to build, Ultra Cavern 120gs. Build time for Defilers is 75gs, Ultras need 90gs. Plating is 133gs, consume is 100gs.
So Defilers with consume can be up 190gs after the Hive finishes.
Ultralisks: 210gs
Ultras with plating: 253gs
Earlier availability is definietly not the reason to go Ultras over Defilers.
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That was one of the closest sweeps I've ever seen.
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The first game was promising and intense. A huge one-click blunder caused Jaedong to lose. Maybe it got to him, because the rest of the series I didn't recognize him.
Also, in the third game, after killing Last's defenses and scvs in his expansion. He was on three hatches with money gathering. Jaedong should have just placed more hatches from the excess cash and droned up asap. He was so far ahead at that point that he could have gone high econ hydra-lurk.
Overall it felt as if Jaedong's spirit was crushed after losing the free lurkers that first game and from there he couldn't bring his A-game from the last few weeks. Oh well, hope he can shake it off for ASL6.
As for Last, he showed really strong macro in the last game. Other than that, I can't really say that he had to play extraordinarily well to take the series...
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Bulgaria750 Posts
I seem to be the only one thinking the lurker move in g1 wasn't such a big blunder. Last had the high ground and I think he very deliberately kept the bulk of his army there, sending a squad back to defend, since the small choke allows lings only, so he had to cover the other way out. JD went up the ramp where he had no vision and stim bio DPS wrecked him. I think it was a superb tactical play from Last and JD just fell into it, not an unprovoked mistake. Great job, I feel happy for Last.
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Let's congratulate last for his first final champion. This game was really not about T being OP or JD playing badly.. it was more of how much Last practiced. I think Last didn't stream for weeks to practice. He played hundred of more games than JD. A man who is thirst for win and put much effort simply won.
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Russian Federation483 Posts
when jaedong himself doesnt sugar coat it and says he lost his passion, you can't really blame the man.
Is Soulkey our hope of beating Flash in ASL 6?
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Last is better than JD. This really isn’t a terribly surprising result. JD has done amazing this tourney particularly after that first series v Light where he looked awful.
But his ZvT needs work. Agree it’s a tough MU but for Z but that’s not why JD lost. Last is the better player and that’s tough to overcome for JD in a bo7.
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Bulgaria750 Posts
Game 2 is what I didn't understand, This was not supposed to happen. It looked absurd, one player made a bunch of units and pushed the other guy's expo and he rolled up and died. I didn't get it, really.
Game 3 was won by clutch irradiates and a sick, sick pimpest play mine-snipe beneath the ramp. JD's build was fairly good IMO, I think the idea was to keep the pressure up with hydra/ling for as long as possible while maintaining the economy to switch to mutas. Last was just prepared and hung on by a pretty thin thread on several occasions.
As for game 4, I don't think the ultra tech in itself was such a bad idea, ultras give you mobility. When the tank/vessel/bio comes out and you defend the ramp of the 3rd with lurkers beneath swarm, terran can simply push the nat. Ultras are a great idea for staving the push cost-effectively, they just need the upgrades, I think. Timings will have to be refined.
and 1-1-1 is such a flexible build, really. It's just that it's so demanding that a handful of players can use it against the big names.
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On September 08 2018 19:53 darktreb wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2018 19:39 Cryoc wrote:On September 08 2018 19:27 Motivate wrote:On September 08 2018 19:19 RKC wrote:
No one is saying that Terran is overwhelmingly OP (eg 90% stronger than other races).
Surely in an asymmetrical game, it is less plausible that the matchup between both sides is perfectly 50-50 balanced.
Top Terrans are slightly favoured against top Zergs in most maps (eg 52-55%) - is that an unreasonable assumption given the entire history of BW? Anyway, the discussion was about why that such assumption may be true (eg flexibility of builds). If you don't agree with the assumption, then no need to be bitchy about it. I find it is a very hard match up, yes. There are LOTS of ways for the Zerg to die from simple mistakes. As is the case with TvP or PvZ which are both very difficult for Terran and Protoss respectively (although I note on the previous page you say that Terran has a bag of builds vs protoss which I disagree with). However, a knee jerk response that Terran is overpowered isn't correct either. You don't see people complaining that Protoss is overpowered whenever they beat Terran? Last ASL, Protoss had maps (Third World) where they could abuse both carriers and arbiters. The majority of people play Protoss, so no surprise there. The interesting thing about "Terran OP" complaints is that for a long time now, Terran has been held up by one or two elite players, but otherwise would be on the precipice of extinction. Flash and Fantasy singlehandedly held up Terran in the final two years of BW. It was the only race that didn't really have up and comers. While Bogus (aka Innovation) and Last probably get to elite status if BW stays alive, in 2011, the status of Terrans outside of the top two (Flash and Fantasy) was nowhere near as good as the status of Zerg or Protoss outside of their top two players (it's not even clear who the top 2 Zergs or Protoss were by that time). Here's a list of every player to make final 4 at the 9 Brood War OSL + MSLs played from 2010 until the end of BW (in mid 2012): Terran: * Flash * Fantasy * Light Zerg: * Zero * Hydra * soO * Calm * Modesty * Jaedong * Effort * Hydra * great Protoss: * Jangbi * Stork * free * Pure * Kal It would be fascinating if Flash and Last went to army at the same time. It could be an extinction event for Terran. I like Mind a lot but he's not a league winning threat in the current era. Same goes for guys like Sea, Light, Sharp, etc. Whereas there's a smattering of Zergs and Protosses that have some chance.
Yes thank you. I've said it before, but please enjoy the endless ZvZs when Flash hangs up his mouse. Other than him, I've only ever felt good about Baby.. still not sure about Last, though he's far far far and away the only other candidate right now.
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EPT
