EPTyes, that would be enough for me, as well. but for now, what? he's not really a trustworthy member.
[NEWS] Kosiro claims that he didn't cheat - Page 7
| Forum Index > Brood War Tournaments |
|
Zeto
United States2290 Posts
yes, that would be enough for me, as well. but for now, what? he's not really a trustworthy member. | ||
|
OverTheUnder
United States2929 Posts
Far it is more serious thought than.. The TL pan Taeg pro league condition it won at mastering end and it came out and it dined together, the Kosiro of the TL side (economy hundred million) the bow took and the alcoholic beverage the first game it came, after 20 minutes and and the nose it came two conditions compared to the printed style of writing tu it won but.. The green onion sprouts and tu the nose bow of forum side proposes different meaning, inside TL mastering and the midi the result third condition which the bow back analyzes together Kim Jae Choon (Sea.Firefist) your bedspread which it judges in alternate condition of the bow. (li Flow it sees). It was like that and that condition controlled and confiscation phay it drew out the Kosiro bow, well! the army bedspread.. It lost 1 Pig and it threw away.. Nine like this there is an uglily be day, ni.. Only it is noisy. ..... anyway, I really do hope he isn't lying, but hopefully it's resolved soon  | ||
|
Night[Mare
Mexico4793 Posts
But for the defense, its actually really suspicious that he recovered shape just like that in 20 mins. But im really hoping kosiro isnt cheating. | ||
|
zulu_nation8
China26351 Posts
| ||
|
zulu_nation8
China26351 Posts
| ||
|
Wasabi
United States3085 Posts
| ||
|
KissBlade
United States5718 Posts
| ||
|
racebannon
Canada1225 Posts
On September 24 2006 18:31 KissBlade wrote: Alright think of this, if it's possible for sea.firefist to have inconsistent hotkey patterns, what's to stop Kosiro from doing the same? The fact that he doesn't? | ||
|
zdd
1463 Posts
On September 24 2006 18:31 KissBlade wrote: Alright think of this, if it's possible for sea.firefist to have inconsistent hotkey patterns, what's to stop Kosiro from doing the same? Inconsistent doesn't imply random, however, so we would have to find a legit Kosiro replay with a similar fingerprint to game 3 for that logic to work. | ||
|
Orome
Switzerland11984 Posts
He really wanted to play in the sandlot and do well, but because of pantech's proleague victory, he was taken drinking and couldn't refuse. He returned drunk, yet still hadn't forgotten about his sandlot match, and decided to go to a pc bang alone and play his games (a very nice thing to do I might add). He played the first game, but quickly realized he was way too drunk, and had no chance to win the series. He felt bad about this, because he didn't want to let his team down (and wanted the money too I suppose), and, figuring nobody would look too closely at the replays, went back to the pantech headquarters, and let firefist play. While this may be a very wrong thing to do, and it definitely was cheating, I think it's quite understandable, especially considering he was drunk. With an apology, I think TL should even have taken him back on the team. I really wish he would've admitted everything, because now, it gets much dirtier. If he's proven guilty, he not only cheated, but later on (when he was completely sober again) lied as well, which makes it much worse in my opinion. I REALLY hope he can prove himself innocent, and rock the sandlot with us. | ||
|
IdrA
United States11541 Posts
On September 24 2006 18:34 zdd wrote: [removed quote within quote] Inconsistent doesn't imply random, however, so we would have to find a legit Kosiro replay with a similar fingerprint to game 3 for that logic to work. no, all you would need to do is to establish that kosiro has inconsistant hotkey patterns. | ||
|
NonYold
United States2814 Posts
On September 24 2006 17:37 zulu_nation8 wrote: Compared all the Kosiro replays, from the ones in Kouros[fou] replay pack from awhile ago to the 2 games uploaded on jopd a few days ago. Kosiro ALWAYS, has 1 3 0, then 4 9 and maybe a 1. That pattern is consistent in every replay of Kosiro for every matchup. 3rd game vs draco the hotkeys at the start are 123 111, from that pretty sure it wasn't Kosiro, however i'm not sure if that was firefist either. And about players changing hotkeys depending on strat/rush? I disagree, the first 5 seconds of a game are instincts. Unless you consciously manipulate it and try to be someone else you will not just suddenly change your starting hotkeys because it doesn't do anything. That's especially true for zerg because there's no "natural" order to hotkey your hatches/ovies/drones at the beginning. For toss I know most of y'all do 0 or 0/9 nexus, then 1 probe, 3 gate or something like that. And for terran, 3 cc 1 scv is pretty common. For zerg it really differs from player to player. I'm convinced game 3 wasn't Kosiro. That is only one way to look at the analysis and it's biased. The initial analysis was short-sighted as I have already pointed out. One doesn't need to look any farther than the other player in the very same replays. Draco hotkeys radically differently in the two games but it's easily explanable by examining the actions in the game (1gate and fast expansion). By looking at the game and the hotkeying as a combined story, we can see why someone would have made the hotkeys 789 in one game and not in the other. 78 are made while waiting on an overlord, whereas in the other game lings are being micro'd at that point. It's unreasonable to expect that pattern to be the same in both games. 9 is made for the 12th drone going to make a hatchery, but in the second game the build order is different (9pool). The only things unexplainable are the initial hotkeying and spamming, which incidentally are the least influential actions in the entire game. I believe the burden is on the accusers to explain why it is in Kosiro's strong interest to never stray from the pattern used in game 1. Of course they avoid this and only say that it's uncommon for players to do different actions even when they're insignificant. What it boils down to, then, is kosiro's word against the opinion that players are unlikely to change the insignificant beginning actions of a game. Seeing as how the opinion hasn't been supported by anything more than personal testimony and samples of replays so small that they're irrelevant, I'm inclined to have trust. That said, I don't believe that it's impossible to sufficiently support the claims of the replay analysts. I believe they made some mistakes in trying to find differences in their play in any part of the replay except for the first 30 seconds. However I think a case can be made of that first 30 seconds if they proved that players unconditionally do nearly the exact same actions at the beginning of every game, even when the actions are completely insignificant for the remainder of the game. And yes I think that'd take a bit of work but I believe you are obligated to a bit of work before you call someone a cheat and a liar. And beside that, any work done now could continue to be used in cases beyond kosiro. | ||
|
KissBlade
United States5718 Posts
| ||
|
racebannon
Canada1225 Posts
On September 24 2006 18:43 NonY wrote: [removed quote within quote] That is only one way to look at the analysis and it's biased. The initial analysis was short-sighted as I have already pointed out. One doesn't need to look any farther than the other player in the very same replays. Draco hotkeys radically differently in the two games but it's easily explanable by examining the actions in the game (1gate and fast expansion). By looking at the game and the hotkeying as a combined story, we can see why someone would have made the hotkeys 789 in one game and not in the other. 78 are made while waiting on an overlord, whereas in the other game lings are being micro'd at that point. It's unreasonable to expect that pattern to be the same in both games. 9 is made for the 12th drone going to make a hatchery, but in the second game the build order is different (9pool). The only things unexplainable are the initial hotkeying and spamming, which incidentally are the least influential actions in the entire game. I believe the burden is on the accusers to explain why it is in Kosiro's strong interest to never stray from the pattern used in game 1. Of course they avoid this and only say that it's uncommon for players to do different actions even when they're insignificant. What it boils down to, then, is kosiro's word against the opinion that players are unlikely to change the insignificant beginning actions of a game. Seeing as how the opinion hasn't been supported by anything more than personal testimony and samples of replays so small that they're irrelevant, I'm inclined to have trust. That said, I don't believe that it's impossible to sufficiently support the claims of the replay analysts. I believe they made some mistakes in trying to find differences in their play in any part of the replay except for the first 30 seconds. However I think a case can be made of that first 30 seconds if they proved that players unconditionally do nearly the exact same actions at the beginning of every game, even when the actions are completely insignificant for the remainder of the game. And yes I think that'd take a bit of work but I believe you are obligated to a bit of work before you call someone a cheat and a liar. And beside that, any work done now could continue to be used in cases beyond kosiro. Why does he start every single game in every single replay available of him in the exact same way except for the game in question? I understand you're having fun playing internet lawyer but you're really going to lengths to conveniently ignore very simple facts | ||
IntoTheWow
is awesome32277 Posts
| ||
|
sTrAtO
Mexico1084 Posts
| ||
|
IdrA
United States11541 Posts
the biggest, and only solid, incriminating piece of evidence is the early game spam which serves no purpose other than warm up. i dont know how many reps are available but unless you have pretty significant proof that he never ever varies then there isnt much to go on. especially since the game 3 patterns dont necessarily match firefist, as firefist doesnt seem to have a set pattern. | ||
|
to miss the mark
Bosnia-Herzegovina1381 Posts
If Kosiro went on someone else's account to post a reply somewhere. That would be genuinely awesome. | ||
|
DarK]N[exuS
China1441 Posts
On September 24 2006 18:51 racebannon wrote: I understand you're having fun playing internet lawyer but you're really going to lengths to conveniently ignore very simple facts Irony | ||
|
racebannon
Canada1225 Posts
On September 24 2006 19:06 DarK]N[exuS wrote: [removed quote within quote] Irony what facts am I ignoring? that his build is different in this game so the way he hotkeys changes? I would even concede that him not hotkeying 0 when planning a 9 pool is understandable, he doesn't use it until late game, as 3 is his hatch as well. But every single game, every single one has him spamming 1 3, except for this one. Every game starts with him building 9 drones regardless of the build, over about 15 reps, this is the only one with any variation. And putting down a hatch at his nat That includes his hotkey of 0. We are assuming he is not omniscient and couldn't know that the game would end in the first 5 minutes, so it's suspect that he doesn't hotkey 0 at all in this game. It's just weird of someone who does it every single game not to do now. But the spam is the most telling in my opinion. I see no reason for him to deviate from his normal spam when he is going to build 9 drones and an overlord in the game. This isn't a 4 pool or something. The first minute or so of the game is exactly the same as every other, but his hotkeys are different. Why? Of all replays, the one under the most suspicious circumstances is the one that is different from all the rest. What would solve this for good is if we found another game where he 9 pool speedlings, I agree on that. But without that evidence I still can't see a reason to disagree with what I've said Actually I noticed he did put a hatch down at his nat and in his main, which means that's two more hatcheries he did not hotkey like he does in every other game, which makes this even more suspect. | ||
| ||
