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On April 09 2012 00:11 J1.au wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 00:10 Mazer wrote:On April 09 2012 00:07 LittLeLives wrote:On April 09 2012 00:04 how2TL wrote:On April 09 2012 00:01 Shikyo wrote:On April 08 2012 23:55 Random_0 wrote:On April 08 2012 23:37 Shikyo wrote:
Okay, time to be serious now I guess.
Flash played awfully that last game. In the early game he had numerous chances to take a significant advantage, then just throws it by letting himself get flanked by Zealots. He might have been able to accumulate a large enough advantage at that point that he could just win with a timing push.
Afterwards he makes only tanks and no vultures. I was thinking he would lose it the moment he overcommitted to the place behind bisus base, but Bisu tried to break it instead of counterattacking. However, flash kept doing that, with NO vultures and NO proper defenses at home, and so Bisu was going to win the second he decided to counterattack. Flash couldn't even go for a base race himself after seeing Bisu countering him because he was at a terrible position behind Bisu's base where he couldn't access the actually important parts of Bisus base fast enough to deal any kind of significant damage.
Especially the part where he snipes core and then makes a total of 0 vultures against the only unit Bisu could possibly make was just unbelievable.
Flash definitely wasn't in form again. I believe that sending out Hoejja would have given KT better chances of victory. These are good points. My thoughts: 1) Bisu's proxy gate at the beginning wasn't intended to kill Flash, but rather to throw him off of the stylized games which Flash has millions of repetitions at. In games that go the "normal" way, Flash has the best mechanics, and the best chance of winning. 2) For microing marines vs. zealots at the beginning of the game, you have to consider that Flash is rattled, probably dealing with nerves on the big stage. In addition, his infrastructure is not where he expects it to be, so microing while macroing is so much harder. 3) Flash did have significant defenses at home: a bunker and three siege tanks set up. This is a great defense against the typical Protoss composition. It's hard to anticipate a speed zealot counter going in that hard that fast, because it just doesn't happen very often in PvT. 4) I would definitely send out Flash over Hoejja, regardless of how well Hoejja was playing. The KT coach said in the end that Flash really wanted to take the challenge of the ACE match map, even though it's clearly P favored (SKT picked the map.) Hm, has the game changed that much since I've played? Protoss usually always counterattacked Terran if they didn't mine up because they could get away with that and retreat to defend. 3 tanks and a bunker only would work against pure goon, and a very modest amount at that. I wasn't really talking about the micro vs Zealots, it was decent, but his decisions to move out to get flanked instead of just sitting back were completely puzzling. He could have had his first factory out like 30 seconds faster too. Marines very quickly reach a critical mass against Zealots, he should have sat back until reaching it instead of moving out before that and losing numerous ones to Zealots needlessly, multiple times. That last point of yours doesn't convince me at all, I still think Hoejja would have been a perfect fit. I guess it just makes me sad that the final game of the series was the worst of them all, kind of anticlimactic (I personally don't care about who wins) Anticlimatic is not the word most people would use to describe that last game. Sorry the game didn't live up to your standards. That was the greatest series. I would use it to describe it. It's like all this shit going on and then it just ends in the most unspectacular way possible. It's like if the MC of a story got the villain to his final form but then the final form just does some desperation move and ends it. Anti-climactic? WHAT? Best current player, check Former best player, check SPL finals, check Ace match, check Unconventional start, check Back and forth action all game, check Seemingly bad position for both players at different points in the game, check Yeah, completely anti-climactic. You guys are crazy. Horrible map, check.
Shoulda done better in the regular season, right?
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On April 09 2012 00:02 chongu wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 23:51 Dante08 wrote:On April 08 2012 23:36 Dakkas wrote:On April 08 2012 23:34 chambertin wrote:
Can someone who actually understands this game write a quick explanation of that last game... just a few sentences.. I'm really curious since I havent seen that much broodwar and the the first set of games were quite accessible. That last game I don't even...
LAST GAME WRITE-UP please gogo LITTLE SYNOPSIS In TvP, the T only wants to make a very small handful of marines because it's mech that can really fight toss armies. Bisu not only delayed Flash's gas incredibly but he also forced Flash into tank/marine, which is not optimal against protoss in anyway Bisu opens 1 gate proxy gas steal and Flash responds by 2 rax and defends it pretty well. Flash expected bisu to expand or tech after the 1 gate and hence moved out with marines to pressure. But Bisu already had a plan for that, delayed his tech and expansion and went for 3 gates I believe (someone correct me if I'm wrong) before teching and expanding. Thats why Flash lost quite a few marines pressuring the proxy as he didnt expect the extra zealots. They both then expand behind it and Bisu steals Flash's gas quite a few times, delaying his tech. Bisu tries to pressure with dragoons up the ramp but is denied and soon after both settle down and Flash pushes out with marine/tank while Bisu gets a third and reaver tech. Flash manages to push into the main and deny mining, destroying the core and other stuff. But Bisu was never that far behind IMO because he had his third running for quite some time and I think in a moment of either genius/desperation, he made a ton of zealots and countered Flash and won him the game. Flash must have been kicking himself for not building vultures. Nice analysis! For me, it was more of wanting to delay/lessen the strength of a MnM & Tank push that was inevitable. That amount of marines take a long time to build. Also I would like to point out that Bisu almost immediately rebuilt the cyber core two building blocks away from the destroyed one.
Good point, sigh I wish Flash had made vultures. T_T oh well we had won 2 years in a row, now its your turn SKT.
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On April 09 2012 00:12 Winechu wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 00:10 HNOblivion wrote:On April 09 2012 00:04 VGhost wrote:
Flash lost twice on the same day.
I'm pretty sure the last time that happened was back in 2009, and then he lost again the day after to get knocked out of everything. He lost 2-1 to JangBi last OSL quarterfinals. That was on two separate days iirc
No he won the first game so 1-0 but then lost two games on the same day.
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...I wouldn't say the game was bad.
Both sides made mistakes. I've mentioned the Flash's before, but Bisu also had a certain amount of mistakes: once he threw away 3 zealots getting them contained for one marine. Then his probe moved out of the way of Flash's army and Flash got scouted by shuttle instead, managing to get high ground in time. Then bisu tried to break the contain...he threw away a lot of supply there to clear it up, and one tank even survived(with reinforcements coming). Tbh he'd probably have a better chance of countering instantly instead, though it's questionable. He'd be reasonably dead if flash left some extra tanks at home from his 2nd wave push(he didn't need his whole army in that fortified position, half of it'd do the trick),
But all these mistakes and extra tensity is what you get from chaotic games, that's their point in the first place. I'd say it was entertaining and a fitting end to close finals.
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On April 08 2012 23:59 jaQi wrote:I would love to see a FPVOD of the last game by Bisu. Despite the tactical components his execution is incredible. He must have done at least 3 things at the same time the entire game. Congratulations. + Show Spoiler +
Showed nerves of steel to cheese in such a moment, beat Flash in ace match at PL finals, and lose in OSL prelims. Never understand this guy.
As far as the spoilered part is concerned, the two things go pretty well together if you think about it ;D
You guys are posting too fast i'm like 5 pages behind...
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On April 09 2012 00:01 LittLeLives wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 23:55 Random_0 wrote:On April 08 2012 23:37 Shikyo wrote:
Okay, time to be serious now I guess.
Flash played awfully that last game. In the early game he had numerous chances to take a significant advantage, then just throws it by letting himself get flanked by Zealots. He might have been able to accumulate a large enough advantage at that point that he could just win with a timing push.
Afterwards he makes only tanks and no vultures. I was thinking he would lose it the moment he overcommitted to the place behind bisus base, but Bisu tried to break it instead of counterattacking. However, flash kept doing that, with NO vultures and NO proper defenses at home, and so Bisu was going to win the second he decided to counterattack. Flash couldn't even go for a base race himself after seeing Bisu countering him because he was at a terrible position behind Bisu's base where he couldn't access the actually important parts of Bisus base fast enough to deal any kind of significant damage.
Especially the part where he snipes core and then makes a total of 0 vultures against the only unit Bisu could possibly make was just unbelievable.
Flash definitely wasn't in form again. I believe that sending out Hoejja would have given KT better chances of victory. These are good points. My thoughts: + Show Spoiler +1) Bisu's proxy gate at the beginning wasn't intended to kill Flash, but rather to throw him off of the stylized games which Flash has millions of repetitions at. In games that go the "normal" way, Flash has the best mechanics, and the best chance of winning.
2) For microing marines vs. zealots at the beginning of the game, you have to consider that Flash is rattled, probably dealing with nerves on the big stage. In addition, his infrastructure is not where he expects it to be, so microing while macroing is so much harder.
3) Flash did have significant defenses at home: a bunker and three siege tanks set up. This is a great defense against the typical Protoss composition. It's hard to anticipate a speed zealot counter going in that hard that fast, because it just doesn't happen very often in PvT. 4) I would definitely send out Flash over Hoejja, regardless of how well Hoejja was playing. The KT coach said in the end that Flash really wanted to take the challenge of the ACE match map, even though it's clearly P favored (SKT picked the map.) I think it's good coaching to send out someone who won their set, especially someone who just came from winning who still has his high. I realize Flash wanted to do it, but HoeJJa has just been in amazing form, it's something to take advantage of.
Bisu would have smashed Hoejja.
His PvP was also looking pretty decent, and he usually wins if he can carry it to the late game.
I guess the gamble was that KT knew Bisu was going out on final map because Terran isn't so good on it, Bisu's worst MU is TvP, Flash is a TvP monster. So while Bisu would be practising vP vZ, Flash would be preparing a vP snipe build.
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On April 09 2012 00:12 Winechu wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 00:10 HNOblivion wrote:On April 09 2012 00:04 VGhost wrote:
Flash lost twice on the same day.
I'm pretty sure the last time that happened was back in 2009, and then he lost again the day after to get knocked out of everything. He lost 2-1 to JangBi last OSL quarterfinals. That was on two separate days iirc
Nah, it was the same day.
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On April 09 2012 00:12 Mazer wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 00:11 J1.au wrote:On April 09 2012 00:10 Mazer wrote:On April 09 2012 00:07 LittLeLives wrote:On April 09 2012 00:04 how2TL wrote:On April 09 2012 00:01 Shikyo wrote:On April 08 2012 23:55 Random_0 wrote:On April 08 2012 23:37 Shikyo wrote:
Okay, time to be serious now I guess.
Flash played awfully that last game. In the early game he had numerous chances to take a significant advantage, then just throws it by letting himself get flanked by Zealots. He might have been able to accumulate a large enough advantage at that point that he could just win with a timing push.
Afterwards he makes only tanks and no vultures. I was thinking he would lose it the moment he overcommitted to the place behind bisus base, but Bisu tried to break it instead of counterattacking. However, flash kept doing that, with NO vultures and NO proper defenses at home, and so Bisu was going to win the second he decided to counterattack. Flash couldn't even go for a base race himself after seeing Bisu countering him because he was at a terrible position behind Bisu's base where he couldn't access the actually important parts of Bisus base fast enough to deal any kind of significant damage.
Especially the part where he snipes core and then makes a total of 0 vultures against the only unit Bisu could possibly make was just unbelievable.
Flash definitely wasn't in form again. I believe that sending out Hoejja would have given KT better chances of victory. These are good points. My thoughts: 1) Bisu's proxy gate at the beginning wasn't intended to kill Flash, but rather to throw him off of the stylized games which Flash has millions of repetitions at. In games that go the "normal" way, Flash has the best mechanics, and the best chance of winning. 2) For microing marines vs. zealots at the beginning of the game, you have to consider that Flash is rattled, probably dealing with nerves on the big stage. In addition, his infrastructure is not where he expects it to be, so microing while macroing is so much harder. 3) Flash did have significant defenses at home: a bunker and three siege tanks set up. This is a great defense against the typical Protoss composition. It's hard to anticipate a speed zealot counter going in that hard that fast, because it just doesn't happen very often in PvT. 4) I would definitely send out Flash over Hoejja, regardless of how well Hoejja was playing. The KT coach said in the end that Flash really wanted to take the challenge of the ACE match map, even though it's clearly P favored (SKT picked the map.) Hm, has the game changed that much since I've played? Protoss usually always counterattacked Terran if they didn't mine up because they could get away with that and retreat to defend. 3 tanks and a bunker only would work against pure goon, and a very modest amount at that. I wasn't really talking about the micro vs Zealots, it was decent, but his decisions to move out to get flanked instead of just sitting back were completely puzzling. He could have had his first factory out like 30 seconds faster too. Marines very quickly reach a critical mass against Zealots, he should have sat back until reaching it instead of moving out before that and losing numerous ones to Zealots needlessly, multiple times. That last point of yours doesn't convince me at all, I still think Hoejja would have been a perfect fit. I guess it just makes me sad that the final game of the series was the worst of them all, kind of anticlimactic (I personally don't care about who wins) Anticlimatic is not the word most people would use to describe that last game. Sorry the game didn't live up to your standards. That was the greatest series. I would use it to describe it. It's like all this shit going on and then it just ends in the most unspectacular way possible. It's like if the MC of a story got the villain to his final form but then the final form just does some desperation move and ends it. Anti-climactic? WHAT? Best current player, check Former best player, check SPL finals, check Ace match, check Unconventional start, check Back and forth action all game, check Seemingly bad position for both players at different points in the game, check Yeah, completely anti-climactic. You guys are crazy. Horrible map, check. Shoulda done better in the regular season, right?
We could have done better but nonetheless fail .
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On April 09 2012 00:13 sluggaslamoo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 00:01 LittLeLives wrote:On April 08 2012 23:55 Random_0 wrote:On April 08 2012 23:37 Shikyo wrote:
Okay, time to be serious now I guess.
Flash played awfully that last game. In the early game he had numerous chances to take a significant advantage, then just throws it by letting himself get flanked by Zealots. He might have been able to accumulate a large enough advantage at that point that he could just win with a timing push.
Afterwards he makes only tanks and no vultures. I was thinking he would lose it the moment he overcommitted to the place behind bisus base, but Bisu tried to break it instead of counterattacking. However, flash kept doing that, with NO vultures and NO proper defenses at home, and so Bisu was going to win the second he decided to counterattack. Flash couldn't even go for a base race himself after seeing Bisu countering him because he was at a terrible position behind Bisu's base where he couldn't access the actually important parts of Bisus base fast enough to deal any kind of significant damage.
Especially the part where he snipes core and then makes a total of 0 vultures against the only unit Bisu could possibly make was just unbelievable.
Flash definitely wasn't in form again. I believe that sending out Hoejja would have given KT better chances of victory. These are good points. My thoughts: + Show Spoiler +1) Bisu's proxy gate at the beginning wasn't intended to kill Flash, but rather to throw him off of the stylized games which Flash has millions of repetitions at. In games that go the "normal" way, Flash has the best mechanics, and the best chance of winning.
2) For microing marines vs. zealots at the beginning of the game, you have to consider that Flash is rattled, probably dealing with nerves on the big stage. In addition, his infrastructure is not where he expects it to be, so microing while macroing is so much harder.
3) Flash did have significant defenses at home: a bunker and three siege tanks set up. This is a great defense against the typical Protoss composition. It's hard to anticipate a speed zealot counter going in that hard that fast, because it just doesn't happen very often in PvT. 4) I would definitely send out Flash over Hoejja, regardless of how well Hoejja was playing. The KT coach said in the end that Flash really wanted to take the challenge of the ACE match map, even though it's clearly P favored (SKT picked the map.) I think it's good coaching to send out someone who won their set, especially someone who just came from winning who still has his high. I realize Flash wanted to do it, but HoeJJa has just been in amazing form, it's something to take advantage of. Bisu would have smashed Hoejja. His PvP was also looking pretty decent, and he usually wins if he can carry it to the late game. I guess the gamble was that KT knew Bisu was going out on final map because Terran isn't so good on it, Bisu's worst MU is TvP, Flash is a TvP monster. So while Bisu would be practising vP vZ, Flash would be preparing a vP snipe build.
Bisu would've smashed REGULAR HoeJJa, but HoeJJa just dismantled BeSt earlier and was Post-season.
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On April 09 2012 00:07 Spica wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 00:03 Hyde wrote:On April 08 2012 23:56 Spica wrote:Revenge is so, so sweet. Victory is ours, T1 fans! It's only appropriate that the founding fathers of BW legacies, SKT, also close the ending to this epic tale. KT fought well, but it was not meant to be. The finals this time really delivered, and I feel incredibly lucky to have witnessed them live. What an exciting, roller coaster ride of a series. Hopefully this won't be the final chapter to the grand story of BW, and may there be many more Proleague finals to come! Thanks to Hyde for making the LR thread again, all of our awesome streamers as usual, and to every BW fan for showing their love and support for this game. I always get delighted to see new fans showing their interest in these LR threads! Congratulations to SKT, Proleague champions of 2012!! ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/eAXVo.jpg) <3 Spica. I'm so glad we all watched this together. Indeed! It's good to see all the familiar faces again. :D I'll definitely tune in for the OSL finals too, can't wait to see how that will turn out! It'll be hard to top Jangbi's cinderella story run though...
This series pretty much equals or tops Jangbi's cinderella run in terms of excitement + Show Spoiler +
If I might say BW is only getting better and better. This is thanks to people like you two. Oh, congrats to your team for finally taking the championship. It was completely well-deserved. 
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On April 09 2012 00:10 Ryo wrote:Bisu's brother: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/t0J10.jpg)
Kind of looks like Bisu with a bit of Perfectman.
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On April 09 2012 00:11 J1.au wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 00:10 Mazer wrote:On April 09 2012 00:07 LittLeLives wrote:On April 09 2012 00:04 how2TL wrote:On April 09 2012 00:01 Shikyo wrote:On April 08 2012 23:55 Random_0 wrote:On April 08 2012 23:37 Shikyo wrote:
Okay, time to be serious now I guess.
Flash played awfully that last game. In the early game he had numerous chances to take a significant advantage, then just throws it by letting himself get flanked by Zealots. He might have been able to accumulate a large enough advantage at that point that he could just win with a timing push.
Afterwards he makes only tanks and no vultures. I was thinking he would lose it the moment he overcommitted to the place behind bisus base, but Bisu tried to break it instead of counterattacking. However, flash kept doing that, with NO vultures and NO proper defenses at home, and so Bisu was going to win the second he decided to counterattack. Flash couldn't even go for a base race himself after seeing Bisu countering him because he was at a terrible position behind Bisu's base where he couldn't access the actually important parts of Bisus base fast enough to deal any kind of significant damage.
Especially the part where he snipes core and then makes a total of 0 vultures against the only unit Bisu could possibly make was just unbelievable.
Flash definitely wasn't in form again. I believe that sending out Hoejja would have given KT better chances of victory. These are good points. My thoughts: 1) Bisu's proxy gate at the beginning wasn't intended to kill Flash, but rather to throw him off of the stylized games which Flash has millions of repetitions at. In games that go the "normal" way, Flash has the best mechanics, and the best chance of winning. 2) For microing marines vs. zealots at the beginning of the game, you have to consider that Flash is rattled, probably dealing with nerves on the big stage. In addition, his infrastructure is not where he expects it to be, so microing while macroing is so much harder. 3) Flash did have significant defenses at home: a bunker and three siege tanks set up. This is a great defense against the typical Protoss composition. It's hard to anticipate a speed zealot counter going in that hard that fast, because it just doesn't happen very often in PvT. 4) I would definitely send out Flash over Hoejja, regardless of how well Hoejja was playing. The KT coach said in the end that Flash really wanted to take the challenge of the ACE match map, even though it's clearly P favored (SKT picked the map.) Hm, has the game changed that much since I've played? Protoss usually always counterattacked Terran if they didn't mine up because they could get away with that and retreat to defend. 3 tanks and a bunker only would work against pure goon, and a very modest amount at that. I wasn't really talking about the micro vs Zealots, it was decent, but his decisions to move out to get flanked instead of just sitting back were completely puzzling. He could have had his first factory out like 30 seconds faster too. Marines very quickly reach a critical mass against Zealots, he should have sat back until reaching it instead of moving out before that and losing numerous ones to Zealots needlessly, multiple times. That last point of yours doesn't convince me at all, I still think Hoejja would have been a perfect fit. I guess it just makes me sad that the final game of the series was the worst of them all, kind of anticlimactic (I personally don't care about who wins) Anticlimatic is not the word most people would use to describe that last game. Sorry the game didn't live up to your standards. That was the greatest series. I would use it to describe it. It's like all this shit going on and then it just ends in the most unspectacular way possible. It's like if the MC of a story got the villain to his final form but then the final form just does some desperation move and ends it. Anti-climactic? WHAT? Best current player, check Former best player, check SPL finals, check Ace match, check Unconventional start, check Back and forth action all game, check Seemingly bad position for both players at different points in the game, check Yeah, completely anti-climactic. You guys are crazy. Horrible map, check.
Fanboy tears, check.
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On April 09 2012 00:14 IntoTheheart wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 00:13 sluggaslamoo wrote:On April 09 2012 00:01 LittLeLives wrote:On April 08 2012 23:55 Random_0 wrote:On April 08 2012 23:37 Shikyo wrote:
Okay, time to be serious now I guess.
Flash played awfully that last game. In the early game he had numerous chances to take a significant advantage, then just throws it by letting himself get flanked by Zealots. He might have been able to accumulate a large enough advantage at that point that he could just win with a timing push.
Afterwards he makes only tanks and no vultures. I was thinking he would lose it the moment he overcommitted to the place behind bisus base, but Bisu tried to break it instead of counterattacking. However, flash kept doing that, with NO vultures and NO proper defenses at home, and so Bisu was going to win the second he decided to counterattack. Flash couldn't even go for a base race himself after seeing Bisu countering him because he was at a terrible position behind Bisu's base where he couldn't access the actually important parts of Bisus base fast enough to deal any kind of significant damage.
Especially the part where he snipes core and then makes a total of 0 vultures against the only unit Bisu could possibly make was just unbelievable.
Flash definitely wasn't in form again. I believe that sending out Hoejja would have given KT better chances of victory. These are good points. My thoughts: + Show Spoiler +1) Bisu's proxy gate at the beginning wasn't intended to kill Flash, but rather to throw him off of the stylized games which Flash has millions of repetitions at. In games that go the "normal" way, Flash has the best mechanics, and the best chance of winning.
2) For microing marines vs. zealots at the beginning of the game, you have to consider that Flash is rattled, probably dealing with nerves on the big stage. In addition, his infrastructure is not where he expects it to be, so microing while macroing is so much harder.
3) Flash did have significant defenses at home: a bunker and three siege tanks set up. This is a great defense against the typical Protoss composition. It's hard to anticipate a speed zealot counter going in that hard that fast, because it just doesn't happen very often in PvT. 4) I would definitely send out Flash over Hoejja, regardless of how well Hoejja was playing. The KT coach said in the end that Flash really wanted to take the challenge of the ACE match map, even though it's clearly P favored (SKT picked the map.) I think it's good coaching to send out someone who won their set, especially someone who just came from winning who still has his high. I realize Flash wanted to do it, but HoeJJa has just been in amazing form, it's something to take advantage of. Bisu would have smashed Hoejja. His PvP was also looking pretty decent, and he usually wins if he can carry it to the late game. I guess the gamble was that KT knew Bisu was going out on final map because Terran isn't so good on it, Bisu's worst MU is TvP, Flash is a TvP monster. So while Bisu would be practising vP vZ, Flash would be preparing a vP snipe build. Bisu would've smashed REGULAR HoeJJa, but HoeJJa just dismantled BeSt earlier and was Post-season.
That would be the closest we would get to a BvJ
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On April 09 2012 00:13 bearbuddy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 00:12 Winechu wrote:On April 09 2012 00:10 HNOblivion wrote:On April 09 2012 00:04 VGhost wrote:
Flash lost twice on the same day.
I'm pretty sure the last time that happened was back in 2009, and then he lost again the day after to get knocked out of everything. He lost 2-1 to JangBi last OSL quarterfinals. That was on two separate days iirc Nah, it was the same day.
True. And he's lost series to JD, but I tend to think of series as "one loss" or "one win" for these purposes. So I'm not technically right, but I was trying to make a dramatic point!
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On April 09 2012 00:15 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 00:11 J1.au wrote:On April 09 2012 00:10 Mazer wrote:On April 09 2012 00:07 LittLeLives wrote:On April 09 2012 00:04 how2TL wrote:On April 09 2012 00:01 Shikyo wrote:On April 08 2012 23:55 Random_0 wrote:On April 08 2012 23:37 Shikyo wrote:
Okay, time to be serious now I guess.
Flash played awfully that last game. In the early game he had numerous chances to take a significant advantage, then just throws it by letting himself get flanked by Zealots. He might have been able to accumulate a large enough advantage at that point that he could just win with a timing push.
Afterwards he makes only tanks and no vultures. I was thinking he would lose it the moment he overcommitted to the place behind bisus base, but Bisu tried to break it instead of counterattacking. However, flash kept doing that, with NO vultures and NO proper defenses at home, and so Bisu was going to win the second he decided to counterattack. Flash couldn't even go for a base race himself after seeing Bisu countering him because he was at a terrible position behind Bisu's base where he couldn't access the actually important parts of Bisus base fast enough to deal any kind of significant damage.
Especially the part where he snipes core and then makes a total of 0 vultures against the only unit Bisu could possibly make was just unbelievable.
Flash definitely wasn't in form again. I believe that sending out Hoejja would have given KT better chances of victory. These are good points. My thoughts: 1) Bisu's proxy gate at the beginning wasn't intended to kill Flash, but rather to throw him off of the stylized games which Flash has millions of repetitions at. In games that go the "normal" way, Flash has the best mechanics, and the best chance of winning. 2) For microing marines vs. zealots at the beginning of the game, you have to consider that Flash is rattled, probably dealing with nerves on the big stage. In addition, his infrastructure is not where he expects it to be, so microing while macroing is so much harder. 3) Flash did have significant defenses at home: a bunker and three siege tanks set up. This is a great defense against the typical Protoss composition. It's hard to anticipate a speed zealot counter going in that hard that fast, because it just doesn't happen very often in PvT. 4) I would definitely send out Flash over Hoejja, regardless of how well Hoejja was playing. The KT coach said in the end that Flash really wanted to take the challenge of the ACE match map, even though it's clearly P favored (SKT picked the map.) Hm, has the game changed that much since I've played? Protoss usually always counterattacked Terran if they didn't mine up because they could get away with that and retreat to defend. 3 tanks and a bunker only would work against pure goon, and a very modest amount at that. I wasn't really talking about the micro vs Zealots, it was decent, but his decisions to move out to get flanked instead of just sitting back were completely puzzling. He could have had his first factory out like 30 seconds faster too. Marines very quickly reach a critical mass against Zealots, he should have sat back until reaching it instead of moving out before that and losing numerous ones to Zealots needlessly, multiple times. That last point of yours doesn't convince me at all, I still think Hoejja would have been a perfect fit. I guess it just makes me sad that the final game of the series was the worst of them all, kind of anticlimactic (I personally don't care about who wins) Anticlimatic is not the word most people would use to describe that last game. Sorry the game didn't live up to your standards. That was the greatest series. I would use it to describe it. It's like all this shit going on and then it just ends in the most unspectacular way possible. It's like if the MC of a story got the villain to his final form but then the final form just does some desperation move and ends it. Anti-climactic? WHAT? Best current player, check Former best player, check SPL finals, check Ace match, check Unconventional start, check Back and forth action all game, check Seemingly bad position for both players at different points in the game, check Yeah, completely anti-climactic. You guys are crazy. Horrible map, check. Fanboy tears, check.
THEY TASTE SO GOOD.
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On April 09 2012 00:10 Ryo wrote:Bisu's brother:
That was his brother? LOL, I thought it was some random look-alike. Don't let the Korean netizens see me haha.
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On April 09 2012 00:03 Hyde wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 23:56 Spica wrote:Revenge is so, so sweet. Victory is ours, T1 fans! It's only appropriate that the founding fathers of BW legacies, SKT, also close the ending to this epic tale. KT fought well, but it was not meant to be. The finals this time really delivered, and I feel incredibly lucky to have witnessed them live. What an exciting, roller coaster ride of a series. Hopefully this won't be the final chapter to the grand story of BW, and may there be many more Proleague finals to come! Thanks to Hyde for making the LR thread again, all of our awesome streamers as usual, and to every BW fan for showing their love and support for this game. I always get delighted to see new fans showing their interest in these LR threads! Congratulations to SKT, Proleague champions of 2012!! <3 Spica. I'm so glad we all watched this together.
Ya man, i want to hug everybody whoo!
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On April 09 2012 00:14 e_i_pi_1_0 wrote:Kind of looks like Bisu with a bit of Perfectman.
I was thinking the same thing.
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It`s easy to bash KT`s coach now,but first you should consider this: I`m 100% sure that Flash had some dropship play/weird timing planed,but that proxy gate->gas steal->3 gate pure zealot totally threw him off...It`s easy now to say "why they didn`t send Stats/Hoejja???". Flash,after all,is the greatest progamer of all time.
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On April 09 2012 00:13 Soulforged wrote:
...I wouldn't say the game was bad.
Both sides made mistakes...
Wow, you guys are amazing.
On a huge stage two of the all time best players in BW history faced each other and you see mistakes everywhere.
Is a unit lost a mistake or a genius move by the opposing player?
What do you accomplish for saying "There made Flash a mistake and there Bisu"?
It was a fantastic final. And that's it. 
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EPT
