On April 08 2012 23:37 Shikyo wrote: Okay, time to be serious now I guess.
Flash played awfully that last game. In the early game he had numerous chances to take a significant advantage, then just throws it by letting himself get flanked by Zealots. He might have been able to accumulate a large enough advantage at that point that he could just win with a timing push.
Afterwards he makes only tanks and no vultures. I was thinking he would lose it the moment he overcommitted to the place behind bisus base, but Bisu tried to break it instead of counterattacking. However, flash kept doing that, with NO vultures and NO proper defenses at home, and so Bisu was going to win the second he decided to counterattack. Flash couldn't even go for a base race himself after seeing Bisu countering him because he was at a terrible position behind Bisu's base where he couldn't access the actually important parts of Bisus base fast enough to deal any kind of significant damage.
Especially the part where he snipes core and then makes a total of 0 vultures against the only unit Bisu could possibly make was just unbelievable.
Flash definitely wasn't in form again. I believe that sending out Hoejja would have given KT better chances of victory.
These are good points. My thoughts:
1) Bisu's proxy gate at the beginning wasn't intended to kill Flash, but rather to throw him off of the stylized games which Flash has millions of repetitions at. In games that go the "normal" way, Flash has the best mechanics, and the best chance of winning.
2) For microing marines vs. zealots at the beginning of the game, you have to consider that Flash is rattled, probably dealing with nerves on the big stage. In addition, his infrastructure is not where he expects it to be, so microing while macroing is so much harder.
3) Flash did have significant defenses at home: a bunker and three siege tanks set up. This is a great defense against the typical Protoss composition. It's hard to anticipate a speed zealot counter going in that hard that fast, because it just doesn't happen very often in PvT.
4) I would definitely send out Flash over Hoejja, regardless of how well Hoejja was playing. The KT coach said in the end that Flash really wanted to take the challenge of the ACE match map, even though it's clearly P favored (SKT picked the map.)
Hm, has the game changed that much since I've played? Protoss usually always counterattacked Terran if they didn't mine up because they could get away with that and retreat to defend. 3 tanks and a bunker only would work against pure goon, and a very modest amount at that.
I wasn't really talking about the micro vs Zealots, it was decent, but his decisions to move out to get flanked instead of just sitting back were completely puzzling. He could have had his first factory out like 30 seconds faster too. Marines very quickly reach a critical mass against Zealots, he should have sat back until reaching it instead of moving out before that and losing numerous ones to Zealots needlessly, multiple times.
That last point of yours doesn't convince me at all, I still think Hoejja would have been a perfect fit. I guess it just makes me sad that the final game of the series was the worst of them all, kind of anticlimactic (I personally don't care about who wins)
now after reading so many words, I felt anticlimatic
Wow, I hadn't been closely following the scene like I did before, but I'm so glad I decided to watch the playoffs and specially these amazing finals. This just brought me back all those times of enjoying it... whatever happens, Broodwar will forever have a place heart.
On April 08 2012 23:37 Shikyo wrote: Okay, time to be serious now I guess.
Flash played awfully that last game. In the early game he had numerous chances to take a significant advantage, then just throws it by letting himself get flanked by Zealots. He might have been able to accumulate a large enough advantage at that point that he could just win with a timing push.
Afterwards he makes only tanks and no vultures. I was thinking he would lose it the moment he overcommitted to the place behind bisus base, but Bisu tried to break it instead of counterattacking. However, flash kept doing that, with NO vultures and NO proper defenses at home, and so Bisu was going to win the second he decided to counterattack. Flash couldn't even go for a base race himself after seeing Bisu countering him because he was at a terrible position behind Bisu's base where he couldn't access the actually important parts of Bisus base fast enough to deal any kind of significant damage.
Especially the part where he snipes core and then makes a total of 0 vultures against the only unit Bisu could possibly make was just unbelievable.
Flash definitely wasn't in form again. I believe that sending out Hoejja would have given KT better chances of victory.
These are good points. My thoughts:
1) Bisu's proxy gate at the beginning wasn't intended to kill Flash, but rather to throw him off of the stylized games which Flash has millions of repetitions at. In games that go the "normal" way, Flash has the best mechanics, and the best chance of winning.
2) For microing marines vs. zealots at the beginning of the game, you have to consider that Flash is rattled, probably dealing with nerves on the big stage. In addition, his infrastructure is not where he expects it to be, so microing while macroing is so much harder.
3) Flash did have significant defenses at home: a bunker and three siege tanks set up. This is a great defense against the typical Protoss composition. It's hard to anticipate a speed zealot counter going in that hard that fast, because it just doesn't happen very often in PvT.
4) I would definitely send out Flash over Hoejja, regardless of how well Hoejja was playing. The KT coach said in the end that Flash really wanted to take the challenge of the ACE match map, even though it's clearly P favored (SKT picked the map.)
Hm, has the game changed that much since I've played? Protoss usually always counterattacked Terran if they didn't mine up because they could get away with that and retreat to defend. 3 tanks and a bunker only would work against pure goon, and a very modest amount at that.
I wasn't really talking about the micro vs Zealots, it was decent, but his decisions to move out to get flanked instead of just sitting back were completely puzzling. He could have had his first factory out like 30 seconds faster too. Marines very quickly reach a critical mass against Zealots, he should have sat back until reaching it instead of moving out before that and losing numerous ones to Zealots needlessly, multiple times.
That last point of yours doesn't convince me at all, I still think Hoejja would have been a perfect fit. I guess it just makes me sad that the final game of the series was the worst of them all, kind of anticlimactic (I personally don't care about who wins)
Anticlimatic is not the word most people would use to describe that last game. Sorry the game didn't live up to your standards.
That was the greatest series.
I would use it to describe it. It's like all this shit going on and then it just ends in the most unspectacular way possible. It's like if the MC of a story got the villain to his final form but then the final form just does some desperation move and ends it.
Anti-climactic? WHAT?
Best current player, check Former best player, check SPL finals, check Ace match, check Unconventional start, check Back and forth action all game, check Seemingly bad position for both players at different points in the game, check
Yeah, completely anti-climactic. You guys are crazy.
I had to bloody leave right before the Ace match. You guys were killing me while I was updating every 5 seconds on my phone... WHY DID I HAVE TO MISS THE ACE GAME?! ;(
On April 09 2012 00:17 Vuk_91 wrote: It`s easy to bash KT`s coach now,but first you should consider this: I`m 100% sure that Flash had some dropship play/weird timing planed,but that proxy gate->gas steal->3 gate pure zealot totally threw him off...It`s easy now to say "why they didn`t send Stats/Hoejja???". Flash,after all,is the greatest progamer of all time.
If he had sent out stats or hoejja and they lost there would be a riot on why flash didn't play.
Very reminiscent of last year's finals. People complained that bisu should've been sent. Ah, hindsight bias.
Well, I actually said that they should have sent out Hoejja even before the ace match so at least cannot blame me for hindsight .-.
On April 08 2012 23:56 Spica wrote: Revenge is so, so sweet. Victory is ours, T1 fans!
It's only appropriate that the founding fathers of BW legacies, SKT, also close the ending to this epic tale. KT fought well, but it was not meant to be.
The finals this time really delivered, and I feel incredibly lucky to have witnessed them live. What an exciting, roller coaster ride of a series.
Hopefully this won't be the final chapter to the grand story of BW, and may there be many more Proleague finals to come!
Thanks to Hyde for making the LR thread again, all of our awesome streamers as usual, and to every BW fan for showing their love and support for this game. I always get delighted to see new fans showing their interest in these LR threads!
Congratulations to SKT, Proleague champions of 2012!!
The clay figures are amazing, who made those?
A fan did! I just found the picture and thought it was amazing so I saved it to my pics folder.
Man, I just spent the last 30 minutes reading through the last 100 or so pages of this thread. Totally worth it considering that it's almost certainly going to be the last PL LR thread as we know it.
The last couple of years have been a bitter pill to swallow, so I'll treasure this one because of it.
Two Champion teams went head-to-head tonight, and together they ensured that our beloved BW will not soon be forgotten.
I salute both teams, and thank you from the bottom of my heart for what was a perfect night (and early morning) of entertainment.
EPT
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/eAXVo.jpg)
