On April 08 2012 23:56 Spica wrote: Revenge is so, so sweet. Victory is ours, T1 fans!
It's only appropriate that the founding fathers of BW legacies, SKT, also close the ending to this epic tale. KT fought well, but it was not meant to be.
The finals this time really delivered, and I feel incredibly lucky to have witnessed them live. What an exciting, roller coaster ride of a series.
Hopefully this won't be the final chapter to the grand story of BW, and may there be many more Proleague finals to come!
Thanks to Hyde for making the LR thread again, all of our awesome streamers as usual, and to every BW fan for showing their love and support for this game. I always get delighted to see new fans showing their interest in these LR threads!
Congratulations to SKT, Proleague champions of 2012!!
<3 Spica. I'm so glad we all watched this together.
On April 08 2012 23:37 Shikyo wrote: Okay, time to be serious now I guess.
Flash played awfully that last game. In the early game he had numerous chances to take a significant advantage, then just throws it by letting himself get flanked by Zealots. He might have been able to accumulate a large enough advantage at that point that he could just win with a timing push.
Afterwards he makes only tanks and no vultures. I was thinking he would lose it the moment he overcommitted to the place behind bisus base, but Bisu tried to break it instead of counterattacking. However, flash kept doing that, with NO vultures and NO proper defenses at home, and so Bisu was going to win the second he decided to counterattack. Flash couldn't even go for a base race himself after seeing Bisu countering him because he was at a terrible position behind Bisu's base where he couldn't access the actually important parts of Bisus base fast enough to deal any kind of significant damage.
Especially the part where he snipes core and then makes a total of 0 vultures against the only unit Bisu could possibly make was just unbelievable.
Flash definitely wasn't in form again. I believe that sending out Hoejja would have given KT better chances of victory.
1) Bisu's proxy gate at the beginning wasn't intended to kill Flash, but rather to throw him off of the stylized games which Flash has millions of repetitions at. In games that go the "normal" way, Flash has the best mechanics, and the best chance of winning.
2) For microing marines vs. zealots at the beginning of the game, you have to consider that Flash is rattled, probably dealing with nerves on the big stage. In addition, his infrastructure is not where he expects it to be, so microing while macroing is so much harder.
3) Flash did have significant defenses at home: a bunker and three siege tanks set up. This is a great defense against the typical Protoss composition. It's hard to anticipate a speed zealot counter going in that hard that fast, because it just doesn't happen very often in PvT.
4) I would definitely send out Flash over Hoejja, regardless of how well Hoejja was playing. The KT coach said in the end that Flash really wanted to take the challenge of the ACE match map, even though it's clearly P favored (SKT picked the map.)
I think it's good coaching to send out someone who won their set, especially someone who just came from winning who still has his high. I realize Flash wanted to do it, but HoeJJa has just been in amazing form, it's something to take advantage of.
Bisu would have smashed Hoejja.
His PvP was also looking pretty decent, and he usually wins if he can carry it to the late game.
I guess the gamble was that KT knew Bisu was going out on final map because Terran isn't so good on it, Bisu's worst MU is TvP, Flash is a TvP monster. So while Bisu would be practising vP vZ, Flash would be preparing a vP snipe build.
Bisu would've smashed REGULAR HoeJJa, but HoeJJa just dismantled BeSt earlier and was Post-season.
Have we forgotten the greatest game ever played on Destination?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8jSyOTylAM
(I'm actually kind of amazed this is the last time Bisu and HoeJJa played each other - for a ZvP specialist and a PvZ specialist to avoid each other for 3 years and counting is sort of surprising..)
On April 08 2012 23:37 Shikyo wrote: Okay, time to be serious now I guess.
Flash played awfully that last game. In the early game he had numerous chances to take a significant advantage, then just throws it by letting himself get flanked by Zealots. He might have been able to accumulate a large enough advantage at that point that he could just win with a timing push.
Afterwards he makes only tanks and no vultures. I was thinking he would lose it the moment he overcommitted to the place behind bisus base, but Bisu tried to break it instead of counterattacking. However, flash kept doing that, with NO vultures and NO proper defenses at home, and so Bisu was going to win the second he decided to counterattack. Flash couldn't even go for a base race himself after seeing Bisu countering him because he was at a terrible position behind Bisu's base where he couldn't access the actually important parts of Bisus base fast enough to deal any kind of significant damage.
Especially the part where he snipes core and then makes a total of 0 vultures against the only unit Bisu could possibly make was just unbelievable.
Flash definitely wasn't in form again. I believe that sending out Hoejja would have given KT better chances of victory.
These are good points. My thoughts:
1) Bisu's proxy gate at the beginning wasn't intended to kill Flash, but rather to throw him off of the stylized games which Flash has millions of repetitions at. In games that go the "normal" way, Flash has the best mechanics, and the best chance of winning.
2) For microing marines vs. zealots at the beginning of the game, you have to consider that Flash is rattled, probably dealing with nerves on the big stage. In addition, his infrastructure is not where he expects it to be, so microing while macroing is so much harder.
3) Flash did have significant defenses at home: a bunker and three siege tanks set up. This is a great defense against the typical Protoss composition. It's hard to anticipate a speed zealot counter going in that hard that fast, because it just doesn't happen very often in PvT.
4) I would definitely send out Flash over Hoejja, regardless of how well Hoejja was playing. The KT coach said in the end that Flash really wanted to take the challenge of the ACE match map, even though it's clearly P favored (SKT picked the map.)
Hm, has the game changed that much since I've played? Protoss usually always counterattacked Terran if they didn't mine up because they could get away with that and retreat to defend. 3 tanks and a bunker only would work against pure goon, and a very modest amount at that.
I wasn't really talking about the micro vs Zealots, it was decent, but his decisions to move out to get flanked instead of just sitting back were completely puzzling. He could have had his first factory out like 30 seconds faster too. Marines very quickly reach a critical mass against Zealots, he should have sat back until reaching it instead of moving out before that and losing numerous ones to Zealots needlessly, multiple times.
That last point of yours doesn't convince me at all, I still think Hoejja would have been a perfect fit. I guess it just makes me sad that the final game of the series was the worst of them all, kind of anticlimactic (I personally don't care about who wins)
Anticlimatic is not the word most people would use to describe that last game. Sorry the game didn't live up to your standards.
That was the greatest series.
I would use it to describe it. It's like all this shit going on and then it just ends in the most unspectacular way possible. It's like if the MC of a story got the villain to his final form but then the final form just does some desperation move and ends it.
Anti-climactic? WHAT?
Best current player, check Former best player, check SPL finals, check Ace match, check Unconventional start, check Back and forth action all game, check Seemingly bad position for both players at different points in the game, check
Yeah, completely anti-climactic. You guys are crazy.
Horrible map, check.
Fanboy tears, check.
THEY TASTE SO GOOD.
FUCK YEAH THEY DO
Imma mix them in with my champagne to celebrate our victory :D MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM~
On April 08 2012 23:26 pellejohnson wrote: What a disgusting way to win yet people will find it amazing play. I guess it's a good thing BW is going to die in a few months after all
I like my fair share of one-sided games. Like HoeJJa fucking destroying Best. I like it because HoeJJa demonstrated how good he is at this game. Swarms, plague and ensnare going off everywhere. He had Best by the collar at every turn. It was nothing short of perfection, I couldn't have expected that level of play. It says something when a player goes 4-0 in playoffs in amazing form and then he LEVELS UP AGAIN. I seriously thought he'd just end it quick with a hydra bust, but he blows away my expectations. Really. I'll have good dreams tonight.
And then this. Yeah, I was anxious at every moment, but I'd at least expect one of the players to demonstrate something more dream-like. Flash lost marines when he shouldn't have. He got gas stolen, which he should've tried harder to prevent since Bogus went down on this map because of a gas steal. And then he goes pure tank hoping to end it with a drop on the mineral line, as far as I know. Bisu was equally unimpressive. Simple proxy to throw Flash off standard game. Spotty micro in places where he could've done much more damage or taken less damage. And then he powers Zealots to win because that's all he can do at that point. I'm aware it's amazing the game got to that point, it's just, I don't know... not inspiring, you know.
Anyway, fuck these blisters. Typing with just my index fingers is hard shit. Grats to SKT. (KT) Zerg represent. Good night all.
edit: I just realized I'll be hated on for the implication that ace match was one-sided, but whatever too tired.
On April 09 2012 00:17 Vuk_91 wrote: It`s easy to bash KT`s coach now,but first you should consider this: I`m 100% sure that Flash had some dropship play/weird timing planed,but that proxy gate->gas steal->3 gate pure zealot totally threw him off...It`s easy now to say "why they didn`t send Stats/Hoejja???". Flash,after all,is the greatest progamer of all time.
If he had sent out stats or hoejja and they lost there would be a riot on why flash didn't play.
On April 09 2012 00:17 Askalaphos wrote: Wow, you guys are amazing. On a huge stage two of the all time best players in BW history faced each other and you see mistakes everywhere.
Is a unit lost a mistake or a genius move by the opposing player?
What do you accomplish for saying "There made Flash a mistake and there Bisu"?
It was a fantastic final. And that's it.
That was actually the point of my post 0_o The game had more mistakes than usual from these players. The game was very exciting anyway, and the mistakes are explainable by the game being chaotic. That's what I meant.
On April 09 2012 00:17 Vuk_91 wrote: It`s easy to bash KT`s coach now,but first you should consider this: I`m 100% sure that Flash had some dropship play/weird timing planed,but that proxy gate->gas steal->3 gate pure zealot totally threw him off...It`s easy now to say "why they didn`t send Stats/Hoejja???". Flash,after all,is the greatest progamer of all time.
If he had sent out stats or hoejja and they lost there would be a riot on why flash didn't play.
Very reminiscent of last year's finals. People complained that bisu should've been sent. Ah, hindsight bias.
On April 09 2012 00:17 Vuk_91 wrote: It`s easy to bash KT`s coach now,but first you should consider this: I`m 100% sure that Flash had some dropship play/weird timing planed,but that proxy gate->gas steal->3 gate pure zealot totally threw him off...It`s easy now to say "why they didn`t send Stats/Hoejja???". Flash,after all,is the greatest progamer of all time.
If he had sent out stats or hoejja and they lost there would be a riot on why flash didn't play.
Very reminiscent of last year's finals. People complained that bisu should've been sent. Ah, hindsight bias.
Exactly. Is there a player that could have been sent without complaints? If even God can have this happen, is no-one safe?
On April 08 2012 23:49 LightningStrike wrote: Did Bisu did a similar start in the winners league finals vs Flash on Aztec?
Yup, he went heavy zealot disruption to Flash's opening, but he didn't do a proxy, manner pylons nor gas steal that game.
On April 08 2012 23:59 shadymmj wrote: let's put it this way though, i think bisu's recent wins against flash have come from reverse ramp maps using strategies you could never use on a normal map (neo aztec, woo hoo!)
as for tournaments that use normal maps (like the starleagues, cough), well, no elaboration is needed.
i would say fantasy played better than flash today, and fanta only.
On April 08 2012 23:37 Shikyo wrote: Okay, time to be serious now I guess.
Flash played awfully that last game. In the early game he had numerous chances to take a significant advantage, then just throws it by letting himself get flanked by Zealots. He might have been able to accumulate a large enough advantage at that point that he could just win with a timing push.
Afterwards he makes only tanks and no vultures. I was thinking he would lose it the moment he overcommitted to the place behind bisus base, but Bisu tried to break it instead of counterattacking. However, flash kept doing that, with NO vultures and NO proper defenses at home, and so Bisu was going to win the second he decided to counterattack. Flash couldn't even go for a base race himself after seeing Bisu countering him because he was at a terrible position behind Bisu's base where he couldn't access the actually important parts of Bisus base fast enough to deal any kind of significant damage.
Especially the part where he snipes core and then makes a total of 0 vultures against the only unit Bisu could possibly make was just unbelievable.
Flash definitely wasn't in form again. I believe that sending out Hoejja would have given KT better chances of victory.
These are good points. My thoughts:
1) Bisu's proxy gate at the beginning wasn't intended to kill Flash, but rather to throw him off of the stylized games which Flash has millions of repetitions at. In games that go the "normal" way, Flash has the best mechanics, and the best chance of winning.
2) For microing marines vs. zealots at the beginning of the game, you have to consider that Flash is rattled, probably dealing with nerves on the big stage. In addition, his infrastructure is not where he expects it to be, so microing while macroing is so much harder.
3) Flash did have significant defenses at home: a bunker and three siege tanks set up. This is a great defense against the typical Protoss composition. It's hard to anticipate a speed zealot counter going in that hard that fast, because it just doesn't happen very often in PvT.
4) I would definitely send out Flash over Hoejja, regardless of how well Hoejja was playing. The KT coach said in the end that Flash really wanted to take the challenge of the ACE match map, even though it's clearly P favored (SKT picked the map.)
Hm, has the game changed that much since I've played? Protoss usually always counterattacked Terran if they didn't mine up because they could get away with that and retreat to defend. 3 tanks and a bunker only would work against pure goon, and a very modest amount at that.
I wasn't really talking about the micro vs Zealots, it was decent, but his decisions to move out to get flanked instead of just sitting back were completely puzzling. He could have had his first factory out like 30 seconds faster too. Marines very quickly reach a critical mass against Zealots, he should have sat back until reaching it instead of moving out before that and losing numerous ones to Zealots needlessly, multiple times.
That last point of yours doesn't convince me at all, I still think Hoejja would have been a perfect fit. I guess it just makes me sad that the final game of the series was the worst of them all, kind of anticlimactic (I personally don't care about who wins)
So Hoejja vs Bisu will bring a different outcome?
At the very least, the game would've been far better.
I dread a Hydrabust in that game, given how NCR plays out in a PvZ
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/t0J10.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/eAXVo.jpg)
