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[SPL] Grand Final: SK Telecom T1 vs KT Rolster - Page 341

Forum Index > Brood War Tournaments
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Hazzyboy
Profile Joined January 2012
Estonia555 Posts
April 08 2012 15:07 GMT
#6801
On April 09 2012 00:04 LittLeLives wrote:
That's part of people's deal with this, I think. Bisu didn't do anything special at that point. He even got his units misdirected (they were wandering around) in trying to attack Flash's units after the bunker went up. It's just his other tech was farther than Flash would've wanted.

Ye, beating FLash in Finals decider is nothing special - make an unimpressed FLash meme pic for it.
finkelboy
Profile Joined December 2008
Italy372 Posts
April 08 2012 15:07 GMT
#6802
BW BEST GAME IN THE PLANET
Ma jae yoon, what else? By.hero next bonjwa
Askalaphos
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Germany772 Posts
April 08 2012 15:08 GMT
#6803
On April 09 2012 00:05 LittLeLives wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 09 2012 00:03 zenkicker wrote:
On April 09 2012 00:01 Shikyo wrote:
On April 08 2012 23:55 Random_0 wrote:
On April 08 2012 23:37 Shikyo wrote:
Okay, time to be serious now I guess.

Flash played awfully that last game. In the early game he had numerous chances to take a significant advantage, then just throws it by letting himself get flanked by Zealots. He might have been able to accumulate a large enough advantage at that point that he could just win with a timing push.

Afterwards he makes only tanks and no vultures. I was thinking he would lose it the moment he overcommitted to the place behind bisus base, but Bisu tried to break it instead of counterattacking. However, flash kept doing that, with NO vultures and NO proper defenses at home, and so Bisu was going to win the second he decided to counterattack. Flash couldn't even go for a base race himself after seeing Bisu countering him because he was at a terrible position behind Bisu's base where he couldn't access the actually important parts of Bisus base fast enough to deal any kind of significant damage.

Especially the part where he snipes core and then makes a total of 0 vultures against the only unit Bisu could possibly make was just unbelievable.

Flash definitely wasn't in form again. I believe that sending out Hoejja would have given KT better chances of victory.


These are good points. My thoughts:

1) Bisu's proxy gate at the beginning wasn't intended to kill Flash, but rather to throw him off of the stylized games which Flash has millions of repetitions at. In games that go the "normal" way, Flash has the best mechanics, and the best chance of winning.

2) For microing marines vs. zealots at the beginning of the game, you have to consider that Flash is rattled, probably dealing with nerves on the big stage. In addition, his infrastructure is not where he expects it to be, so microing while macroing is so much harder.

3) Flash did have significant defenses at home: a bunker and three siege tanks set up. This is a great defense against the typical Protoss composition. It's hard to anticipate a speed zealot counter going in that hard that fast, because it just doesn't happen very often in PvT.

4) I would definitely send out Flash over Hoejja, regardless of how well Hoejja was playing. The KT coach said in the end that Flash really wanted to take the challenge of the ACE match map, even though it's clearly P favored (SKT picked the map.)

Hm, has the game changed that much since I've played? Protoss usually always counterattacked Terran if they didn't mine up because they could get away with that and retreat to defend. 3 tanks and a bunker only would work against pure goon, and a very modest amount at that.

I wasn't really talking about the micro vs Zealots, it was decent, but his decisions to move out to get flanked instead of just sitting back were completely puzzling. He could have had his first factory out like 30 seconds faster too. Marines very quickly reach a critical mass against Zealots, he should have sat back until reaching it instead of moving out before that and losing numerous ones to Zealots needlessly, multiple times.

That last point of yours doesn't convince me at all, I still think Hoejja would have been a perfect fit. I guess it just makes me sad that the final game of the series was the worst of them all, kind of anticlimactic (I personally don't care about who wins)

So Hoejja vs Bisu will bring a different outcome?

At the very least, the game would've been far better.

Better or not. The game was tense till the ending.
It was absolut ace-match-material.
FavZerg: EffOrt, Jaedong; FavProtoss: Movie, Kal; FavTerran: BaBy, Leta
AlternativeEgo
Profile Joined August 2011
Sweden17309 Posts
April 08 2012 15:08 GMT
#6804
This was pretty awesome Thanks to Sayle and nanashin for the streams. ^^
Mark Munoz looks like Gretorp
illidanx
Profile Joined November 2011
United States973 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-08 15:09:39
April 08 2012 15:09 GMT
#6805
GOD died twice on easter day lollloll
Die-hard KeSPA fan
JFKWT
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Singapore1442 Posts
April 08 2012 15:09 GMT
#6806
On April 09 2012 00:05 LittLeLives wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 09 2012 00:03 zenkicker wrote:
On April 09 2012 00:01 Shikyo wrote:
On April 08 2012 23:55 Random_0 wrote:
On April 08 2012 23:37 Shikyo wrote:
Okay, time to be serious now I guess.

Flash played awfully that last game. In the early game he had numerous chances to take a significant advantage, then just throws it by letting himself get flanked by Zealots. He might have been able to accumulate a large enough advantage at that point that he could just win with a timing push.

Afterwards he makes only tanks and no vultures. I was thinking he would lose it the moment he overcommitted to the place behind bisus base, but Bisu tried to break it instead of counterattacking. However, flash kept doing that, with NO vultures and NO proper defenses at home, and so Bisu was going to win the second he decided to counterattack. Flash couldn't even go for a base race himself after seeing Bisu countering him because he was at a terrible position behind Bisu's base where he couldn't access the actually important parts of Bisus base fast enough to deal any kind of significant damage.

Especially the part where he snipes core and then makes a total of 0 vultures against the only unit Bisu could possibly make was just unbelievable.

Flash definitely wasn't in form again. I believe that sending out Hoejja would have given KT better chances of victory.


These are good points. My thoughts:

1) Bisu's proxy gate at the beginning wasn't intended to kill Flash, but rather to throw him off of the stylized games which Flash has millions of repetitions at. In games that go the "normal" way, Flash has the best mechanics, and the best chance of winning.

2) For microing marines vs. zealots at the beginning of the game, you have to consider that Flash is rattled, probably dealing with nerves on the big stage. In addition, his infrastructure is not where he expects it to be, so microing while macroing is so much harder.

3) Flash did have significant defenses at home: a bunker and three siege tanks set up. This is a great defense against the typical Protoss composition. It's hard to anticipate a speed zealot counter going in that hard that fast, because it just doesn't happen very often in PvT.

4) I would definitely send out Flash over Hoejja, regardless of how well Hoejja was playing. The KT coach said in the end that Flash really wanted to take the challenge of the ACE match map, even though it's clearly P favored (SKT picked the map.)

Hm, has the game changed that much since I've played? Protoss usually always counterattacked Terran if they didn't mine up because they could get away with that and retreat to defend. 3 tanks and a bunker only would work against pure goon, and a very modest amount at that.

I wasn't really talking about the micro vs Zealots, it was decent, but his decisions to move out to get flanked instead of just sitting back were completely puzzling. He could have had his first factory out like 30 seconds faster too. Marines very quickly reach a critical mass against Zealots, he should have sat back until reaching it instead of moving out before that and losing numerous ones to Zealots needlessly, multiple times.

That last point of yours doesn't convince me at all, I still think Hoejja would have been a perfect fit. I guess it just makes me sad that the final game of the series was the worst of them all, kind of anticlimactic (I personally don't care about who wins)


So Hoejja vs Bisu will bring a different outcome?

At the very least, the game would've been far better.

That was an amazing game despite the outcome =/
The calm before the storm / "loli is not a crime, but meganekko is the way to go!"
9001
Profile Joined May 2011
771 Posts
April 08 2012 15:09 GMT
#6807
and i thought fantasy would be mvp after he beat flash earlier
MSL 2052-2053 WE BELIEVE!
sapht
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Sweden141 Posts
April 08 2012 15:09 GMT
#6808
On April 08 2012 23:55 Random_0 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 08 2012 23:37 Shikyo wrote:
Okay, time to be serious now I guess.

Flash played awfully that last game. In the early game he had numerous chances to take a significant advantage, then just throws it by letting himself get flanked by Zealots. He might have been able to accumulate a large enough advantage at that point that he could just win with a timing push.

Afterwards he makes only tanks and no vultures. I was thinking he would lose it the moment he overcommitted to the place behind bisus base, but Bisu tried to break it instead of counterattacking. However, flash kept doing that, with NO vultures and NO proper defenses at home, and so Bisu was going to win the second he decided to counterattack. Flash couldn't even go for a base race himself after seeing Bisu countering him because he was at a terrible position behind Bisu's base where he couldn't access the actually important parts of Bisus base fast enough to deal any kind of significant damage.

Especially the part where he snipes core and then makes a total of 0 vultures against the only unit Bisu could possibly make was just unbelievable.

Flash definitely wasn't in form again. I believe that sending out Hoejja would have given KT better chances of victory.


These are good points. My thoughts:

1) Bisu's proxy gate at the beginning wasn't intended to kill Flash, but rather to throw him off of the stylized games which Flash has millions of repetitions at. In games that go the "normal" way, Flash has the best mechanics, and the best chance of winning.

2) For microing marines vs. zealots at the beginning of the game, you have to consider that Flash is rattled, probably dealing with nerves on the big stage. In addition, his infrastructure is not where he expects it to be, so microing while macroing is so much harder.

3) Flash did have significant defenses at home: a bunker and three siege tanks set up. This is a great defense against the typical Protoss composition. It's hard to anticipate a speed zealot counter going in that hard that fast, because it just doesn't happen very often in PvT.

4) I would definitely send out Flash over Hoejja, regardless of how well Hoejja was playing. The KT coach said in the end that Flash really wanted to take the challenge of the ACE match map, even though it's clearly P favored (SKT picked the map.)


Very good points. On point 3 -- after killing a core, under normal pressure, Flash would anticipate this move, and get vultures+mine up.

I think Bisu's strategy was to throw some dirt into the machine.

Nothing Bisu did put him very far ahead, but he "messed up" timings and introduced unfamiliarity into the early phases of the game. Flash, with good reaction time and multitasking deals with this, but not exceptionally, and does not pull far ahead. After such an opening, your mindset is "fighting", as your adrenaline rises.

Combine adrenaline with a midgame transition happening another way than you had planned or predicted, and the death-machine flash suddenly becomes less decisive, less strict. I'm certain the previous loss vs. Fantasy affected this as well. The aggressor enters the midgame on an intellectual advantage.

Flash's dominating advantage is based on the insane number of games he plays and the number of situations he's practiced. He simply knows BW. But introduce stress and uncertainties, and the hard-wired playstyle becomes diminished in favor of the intuitive, improvisational one. Perhaps Bisu though he had an advantage in this situation. Granted, Flash claims to enter games planning only to play "freestyle" and react to the situation at hand. But this requires both ability to identify the situation at hand, and a learned response for the situation. The more unfamiliar the game looks the harder the situation is to read.

Flash thinks about the game on a high level. Bisu forced the game to a lower level.

So my theory is: Bisu forced a slightly unorthodox game in order to use an advantage rising from stress. Flash is known to play very well under stress and adrenaline, but the combination of setting, map and Bisu strategy made even the terminator crumble under pressure.
You can use control groups to train units without even looking at your base.
LittLeLives
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States692 Posts
April 08 2012 15:09 GMT
#6809
On April 09 2012 00:07 Hazzyboy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 09 2012 00:04 LittLeLives wrote:
That's part of people's deal with this, I think. Bisu didn't do anything special at that point. He even got his units misdirected (they were wandering around) in trying to attack Flash's units after the bunker went up. It's just his other tech was farther than Flash would've wanted.

Ye, beating FLash in Finals decider is nothing special - make an unimpressed FLash meme pic for it.

It's how he did it.
Really now? This is how the discussion boils down?
Welp, good night.
Dakkas
Profile Joined October 2010
2550 Posts
April 08 2012 15:09 GMT
#6810
On April 09 2012 00:07 LittLeLives wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 09 2012 00:04 how2TL wrote:
On April 09 2012 00:01 Shikyo wrote:
On April 08 2012 23:55 Random_0 wrote:
On April 08 2012 23:37 Shikyo wrote:
Okay, time to be serious now I guess.

Flash played awfully that last game. In the early game he had numerous chances to take a significant advantage, then just throws it by letting himself get flanked by Zealots. He might have been able to accumulate a large enough advantage at that point that he could just win with a timing push.

Afterwards he makes only tanks and no vultures. I was thinking he would lose it the moment he overcommitted to the place behind bisus base, but Bisu tried to break it instead of counterattacking. However, flash kept doing that, with NO vultures and NO proper defenses at home, and so Bisu was going to win the second he decided to counterattack. Flash couldn't even go for a base race himself after seeing Bisu countering him because he was at a terrible position behind Bisu's base where he couldn't access the actually important parts of Bisus base fast enough to deal any kind of significant damage.

Especially the part where he snipes core and then makes a total of 0 vultures against the only unit Bisu could possibly make was just unbelievable.

Flash definitely wasn't in form again. I believe that sending out Hoejja would have given KT better chances of victory.


These are good points. My thoughts:

1) Bisu's proxy gate at the beginning wasn't intended to kill Flash, but rather to throw him off of the stylized games which Flash has millions of repetitions at. In games that go the "normal" way, Flash has the best mechanics, and the best chance of winning.

2) For microing marines vs. zealots at the beginning of the game, you have to consider that Flash is rattled, probably dealing with nerves on the big stage. In addition, his infrastructure is not where he expects it to be, so microing while macroing is so much harder.

3) Flash did have significant defenses at home: a bunker and three siege tanks set up. This is a great defense against the typical Protoss composition. It's hard to anticipate a speed zealot counter going in that hard that fast, because it just doesn't happen very often in PvT.

4) I would definitely send out Flash over Hoejja, regardless of how well Hoejja was playing. The KT coach said in the end that Flash really wanted to take the challenge of the ACE match map, even though it's clearly P favored (SKT picked the map.)

Hm, has the game changed that much since I've played? Protoss usually always counterattacked Terran if they didn't mine up because they could get away with that and retreat to defend. 3 tanks and a bunker only would work against pure goon, and a very modest amount at that.

I wasn't really talking about the micro vs Zealots, it was decent, but his decisions to move out to get flanked instead of just sitting back were completely puzzling. He could have had his first factory out like 30 seconds faster too. Marines very quickly reach a critical mass against Zealots, he should have sat back until reaching it instead of moving out before that and losing numerous ones to Zealots needlessly, multiple times.

That last point of yours doesn't convince me at all, I still think Hoejja would have been a perfect fit. I guess it just makes me sad that the final game of the series was the worst of them all, kind of anticlimactic (I personally don't care about who wins)


Anticlimatic is not the word most people would use to describe that last game. Sorry the game didn't live up to your standards.

That was the greatest series.

I would use it to describe it. It's like all this shit going on and then it just ends in the most unspectacular way possible. It's like if the MC of a story got the villain to his final form but then the final form just does some desperation move and ends it.


That's your opinion, it's not just just pure macro-fests that make for excitement
Ryo
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
8787 Posts
April 08 2012 15:10 GMT
#6811
Bisu's brother:

[image loading]
영원히 엠비씨게임 히어로 팬.
HNOblivion
Profile Joined April 2012
Brazil37 Posts
April 08 2012 15:10 GMT
#6812
On April 09 2012 00:04 VGhost wrote:
Flash lost twice on the same day.

I'm pretty sure the last time that happened was back in 2009, and then he lost again the day after to get knocked out of everything.

He lost 2-1 to JangBi last OSL quarterfinals.
Mazer
Profile Joined April 2008
Canada1086 Posts
April 08 2012 15:10 GMT
#6813
On April 09 2012 00:07 LittLeLives wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 09 2012 00:04 how2TL wrote:
On April 09 2012 00:01 Shikyo wrote:
On April 08 2012 23:55 Random_0 wrote:
On April 08 2012 23:37 Shikyo wrote:
Okay, time to be serious now I guess.

Flash played awfully that last game. In the early game he had numerous chances to take a significant advantage, then just throws it by letting himself get flanked by Zealots. He might have been able to accumulate a large enough advantage at that point that he could just win with a timing push.

Afterwards he makes only tanks and no vultures. I was thinking he would lose it the moment he overcommitted to the place behind bisus base, but Bisu tried to break it instead of counterattacking. However, flash kept doing that, with NO vultures and NO proper defenses at home, and so Bisu was going to win the second he decided to counterattack. Flash couldn't even go for a base race himself after seeing Bisu countering him because he was at a terrible position behind Bisu's base where he couldn't access the actually important parts of Bisus base fast enough to deal any kind of significant damage.

Especially the part where he snipes core and then makes a total of 0 vultures against the only unit Bisu could possibly make was just unbelievable.

Flash definitely wasn't in form again. I believe that sending out Hoejja would have given KT better chances of victory.


These are good points. My thoughts:

1) Bisu's proxy gate at the beginning wasn't intended to kill Flash, but rather to throw him off of the stylized games which Flash has millions of repetitions at. In games that go the "normal" way, Flash has the best mechanics, and the best chance of winning.

2) For microing marines vs. zealots at the beginning of the game, you have to consider that Flash is rattled, probably dealing with nerves on the big stage. In addition, his infrastructure is not where he expects it to be, so microing while macroing is so much harder.

3) Flash did have significant defenses at home: a bunker and three siege tanks set up. This is a great defense against the typical Protoss composition. It's hard to anticipate a speed zealot counter going in that hard that fast, because it just doesn't happen very often in PvT.

4) I would definitely send out Flash over Hoejja, regardless of how well Hoejja was playing. The KT coach said in the end that Flash really wanted to take the challenge of the ACE match map, even though it's clearly P favored (SKT picked the map.)

Hm, has the game changed that much since I've played? Protoss usually always counterattacked Terran if they didn't mine up because they could get away with that and retreat to defend. 3 tanks and a bunker only would work against pure goon, and a very modest amount at that.

I wasn't really talking about the micro vs Zealots, it was decent, but his decisions to move out to get flanked instead of just sitting back were completely puzzling. He could have had his first factory out like 30 seconds faster too. Marines very quickly reach a critical mass against Zealots, he should have sat back until reaching it instead of moving out before that and losing numerous ones to Zealots needlessly, multiple times.

That last point of yours doesn't convince me at all, I still think Hoejja would have been a perfect fit. I guess it just makes me sad that the final game of the series was the worst of them all, kind of anticlimactic (I personally don't care about who wins)


Anticlimatic is not the word most people would use to describe that last game. Sorry the game didn't live up to your standards.

That was the greatest series.

I would use it to describe it. It's like all this shit going on and then it just ends in the most unspectacular way possible. It's like if the MC of a story got the villain to his final form but then the final form just does some desperation move and ends it.


Anti-climactic? WHAT?

Best current player, check
Former best player, check
SPL finals, check
Ace match, check
Unconventional start, check
Back and forth action all game, check
Seemingly bad position for both players at different points in the game, check

Yeah, completely anti-climactic. You guys are crazy.
kamikami
Profile Joined November 2010
France1057 Posts
April 08 2012 15:11 GMT
#6814
Lol the ace match is like the final boss battle in a Final Fantasy game. Flash (the final boss) managed to reduce Bisu's HP to single digit but Bisu got the "limit break" and performed an Omnislash lol.
Khassar de Templari
J1.au
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Australia3596 Posts
April 08 2012 15:11 GMT
#6815
On April 09 2012 00:10 Mazer wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 09 2012 00:07 LittLeLives wrote:
On April 09 2012 00:04 how2TL wrote:
On April 09 2012 00:01 Shikyo wrote:
On April 08 2012 23:55 Random_0 wrote:
On April 08 2012 23:37 Shikyo wrote:
Okay, time to be serious now I guess.

Flash played awfully that last game. In the early game he had numerous chances to take a significant advantage, then just throws it by letting himself get flanked by Zealots. He might have been able to accumulate a large enough advantage at that point that he could just win with a timing push.

Afterwards he makes only tanks and no vultures. I was thinking he would lose it the moment he overcommitted to the place behind bisus base, but Bisu tried to break it instead of counterattacking. However, flash kept doing that, with NO vultures and NO proper defenses at home, and so Bisu was going to win the second he decided to counterattack. Flash couldn't even go for a base race himself after seeing Bisu countering him because he was at a terrible position behind Bisu's base where he couldn't access the actually important parts of Bisus base fast enough to deal any kind of significant damage.

Especially the part where he snipes core and then makes a total of 0 vultures against the only unit Bisu could possibly make was just unbelievable.

Flash definitely wasn't in form again. I believe that sending out Hoejja would have given KT better chances of victory.


These are good points. My thoughts:

1) Bisu's proxy gate at the beginning wasn't intended to kill Flash, but rather to throw him off of the stylized games which Flash has millions of repetitions at. In games that go the "normal" way, Flash has the best mechanics, and the best chance of winning.

2) For microing marines vs. zealots at the beginning of the game, you have to consider that Flash is rattled, probably dealing with nerves on the big stage. In addition, his infrastructure is not where he expects it to be, so microing while macroing is so much harder.

3) Flash did have significant defenses at home: a bunker and three siege tanks set up. This is a great defense against the typical Protoss composition. It's hard to anticipate a speed zealot counter going in that hard that fast, because it just doesn't happen very often in PvT.

4) I would definitely send out Flash over Hoejja, regardless of how well Hoejja was playing. The KT coach said in the end that Flash really wanted to take the challenge of the ACE match map, even though it's clearly P favored (SKT picked the map.)

Hm, has the game changed that much since I've played? Protoss usually always counterattacked Terran if they didn't mine up because they could get away with that and retreat to defend. 3 tanks and a bunker only would work against pure goon, and a very modest amount at that.

I wasn't really talking about the micro vs Zealots, it was decent, but his decisions to move out to get flanked instead of just sitting back were completely puzzling. He could have had his first factory out like 30 seconds faster too. Marines very quickly reach a critical mass against Zealots, he should have sat back until reaching it instead of moving out before that and losing numerous ones to Zealots needlessly, multiple times.

That last point of yours doesn't convince me at all, I still think Hoejja would have been a perfect fit. I guess it just makes me sad that the final game of the series was the worst of them all, kind of anticlimactic (I personally don't care about who wins)


Anticlimatic is not the word most people would use to describe that last game. Sorry the game didn't live up to your standards.

That was the greatest series.

I would use it to describe it. It's like all this shit going on and then it just ends in the most unspectacular way possible. It's like if the MC of a story got the villain to his final form but then the final form just does some desperation move and ends it.


Anti-climactic? WHAT?

Best current player, check
Former best player, check
SPL finals, check
Ace match, check
Unconventional start, check
Back and forth action all game, check
Seemingly bad position for both players at different points in the game, check

Yeah, completely anti-climactic. You guys are crazy.

Horrible map, check.
FuryDrone
Profile Joined April 2012
16 Posts
April 08 2012 15:11 GMT
#6816
Awesome montague, I really hope for someone to post it on youtube.
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States46310 Posts
April 08 2012 15:12 GMT
#6817
On April 09 2012 00:03 jaQi wrote:
lol Vods already up.


yeah ^^ Although no ace match yet as far as I can see.

http://www.shortform.com/Debonaire/my/watch/5272523_spl-final-4-8-bisu-skt-vs-p7gab-kt-1set
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
Winechu
Profile Joined May 2011
Singapore1186 Posts
April 08 2012 15:12 GMT
#6818
On April 09 2012 00:10 HNOblivion wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 09 2012 00:04 VGhost wrote:
Flash lost twice on the same day.

I'm pretty sure the last time that happened was back in 2009, and then he lost again the day after to get knocked out of everything.

He lost 2-1 to JangBi last OSL quarterfinals.


That was on two separate days iirc
Hazzyboy
Profile Joined January 2012
Estonia555 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-08 15:13:30
April 08 2012 15:12 GMT
#6819
On April 09 2012 00:09 LittLeLives wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 09 2012 00:07 Hazzyboy wrote:
On April 09 2012 00:04 LittLeLives wrote:
That's part of people's deal with this, I think. Bisu didn't do anything special at that point. He even got his units misdirected (they were wandering around) in trying to attack Flash's units after the bunker went up. It's just his other tech was farther than Flash would've wanted.

Ye, beating FLash in Finals decider is nothing special - make an unimpressed FLash meme pic for it.

It's how he did it.
Really now? This is how the discussion boils down?
Welp, good night.

FLash never cheezed any1 in his life lol and refused to play on T-favored maps by forfeiting those games.
It's a day in here btw.
Dakkas
Profile Joined October 2010
2550 Posts
April 08 2012 15:12 GMT
#6820
On April 09 2012 00:09 sapht wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 08 2012 23:55 Random_0 wrote:
On April 08 2012 23:37 Shikyo wrote:
Okay, time to be serious now I guess.

Flash played awfully that last game. In the early game he had numerous chances to take a significant advantage, then just throws it by letting himself get flanked by Zealots. He might have been able to accumulate a large enough advantage at that point that he could just win with a timing push.

Afterwards he makes only tanks and no vultures. I was thinking he would lose it the moment he overcommitted to the place behind bisus base, but Bisu tried to break it instead of counterattacking. However, flash kept doing that, with NO vultures and NO proper defenses at home, and so Bisu was going to win the second he decided to counterattack. Flash couldn't even go for a base race himself after seeing Bisu countering him because he was at a terrible position behind Bisu's base where he couldn't access the actually important parts of Bisus base fast enough to deal any kind of significant damage.

Especially the part where he snipes core and then makes a total of 0 vultures against the only unit Bisu could possibly make was just unbelievable.

Flash definitely wasn't in form again. I believe that sending out Hoejja would have given KT better chances of victory.


These are good points. My thoughts:

1) Bisu's proxy gate at the beginning wasn't intended to kill Flash, but rather to throw him off of the stylized games which Flash has millions of repetitions at. In games that go the "normal" way, Flash has the best mechanics, and the best chance of winning.

2) For microing marines vs. zealots at the beginning of the game, you have to consider that Flash is rattled, probably dealing with nerves on the big stage. In addition, his infrastructure is not where he expects it to be, so microing while macroing is so much harder.

3) Flash did have significant defenses at home: a bunker and three siege tanks set up. This is a great defense against the typical Protoss composition. It's hard to anticipate a speed zealot counter going in that hard that fast, because it just doesn't happen very often in PvT.

4) I would definitely send out Flash over Hoejja, regardless of how well Hoejja was playing. The KT coach said in the end that Flash really wanted to take the challenge of the ACE match map, even though it's clearly P favored (SKT picked the map.)


Very good points. On point 3 -- after killing a core, under normal pressure, Flash would anticipate this move, and get vultures+mine up.

I think Bisu's strategy was to throw some dirt into the machine.

Nothing Bisu did put him very far ahead, but he "messed up" timings and introduced unfamiliarity into the early phases of the game. Flash, with good reaction time and multitasking deals with this, but not exceptionally, and does not pull far ahead. After such an opening, your mindset is "fighting", as your adrenaline rises.

Combine adrenaline with a midgame transition happening another way than you had planned or predicted, and the death-machine flash suddenly becomes less decisive, less strict. I'm certain the previous loss vs. Fantasy affected this as well. The aggressor enters the midgame on an intellectual advantage.

Flash's dominating advantage is based on the insane number of games he plays and the number of situations he's practiced. He simply knows BW. But introduce stress and uncertainties, and the hard-wired playstyle becomes diminished in favor of the intuitive, improvisational one. Perhaps Bisu though he had an advantage in this situation. Granted, Flash claims to enter games planning only to play "freestyle" and react to the situation at hand. But this requires both ability to identify the situation at hand, and a learned response for the situation. The more unfamiliar the game looks the harder the situation is to read.

Flash thinks about the game on a high level. Bisu forced the game to a lower level.

So my theory is: Bisu forced a slightly unorthodox game in order to use an advantage rising from stress. Flash is known to play very well under stress and adrenaline, but the combination of setting, map and Bisu strategy made even the terminator crumble under pressure.


I think this post is pretty much spot on and deserves quoting. For people that are blasting the game or Flash/Bisu are too simple-minded and only looking from one perspective and completely missing the mind-games at work
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