On April 08 2012 23:37 Shikyo wrote: Okay, time to be serious now I guess.
Flash played awfully that last game. In the early game he had numerous chances to take a significant advantage, then just throws it by letting himself get flanked by Zealots. He might have been able to accumulate a large enough advantage at that point that he could just win with a timing push.
Afterwards he makes only tanks and no vultures. I was thinking he would lose it the moment he overcommitted to the place behind bisus base, but Bisu tried to break it instead of counterattacking. However, flash kept doing that, with NO vultures and NO proper defenses at home, and so Bisu was going to win the second he decided to counterattack. Flash couldn't even go for a base race himself after seeing Bisu countering him because he was at a terrible position behind Bisu's base where he couldn't access the actually important parts of Bisus base fast enough to deal any kind of significant damage.
Especially the part where he snipes core and then makes a total of 0 vultures against the only unit Bisu could possibly make was just unbelievable.
Flash definitely wasn't in form again. I believe that sending out Hoejja would have given KT better chances of victory.
These are good points. My thoughts:
1) Bisu's proxy gate at the beginning wasn't intended to kill Flash, but rather to throw him off of the stylized games which Flash has millions of repetitions at. In games that go the "normal" way, Flash has the best mechanics, and the best chance of winning.
2) For microing marines vs. zealots at the beginning of the game, you have to consider that Flash is rattled, probably dealing with nerves on the big stage. In addition, his infrastructure is not where he expects it to be, so microing while macroing is so much harder.
3) Flash did have significant defenses at home: a bunker and three siege tanks set up. This is a great defense against the typical Protoss composition. It's hard to anticipate a speed zealot counter going in that hard that fast, because it just doesn't happen very often in PvT.
4) I would definitely send out Flash over Hoejja, regardless of how well Hoejja was playing. The KT coach said in the end that Flash really wanted to take the challenge of the ACE match map, even though it's clearly P favored (SKT picked the map.)
Hm, has the game changed that much since I've played? Protoss usually always counterattacked Terran if they didn't mine up because they could get away with that and retreat to defend. 3 tanks and a bunker only would work against pure goon, and a very modest amount at that.
I wasn't really talking about the micro vs Zealots, it was decent, but his decisions to move out to get flanked instead of just sitting back were completely puzzling. He could have had his first factory out like 30 seconds faster too. Marines very quickly reach a critical mass against Zealots, he should have sat back until reaching it instead of moving out before that and losing numerous ones to Zealots needlessly, multiple times.
That last point of yours doesn't convince me at all, I still think Hoejja would have been a perfect fit. I guess it just makes me sad that the final game of the series was the worst of them all, kind of anticlimactic (I personally don't care about who wins)
On April 08 2012 23:37 Shikyo wrote: Okay, time to be serious now I guess.
Flash played awfully that last game. In the early game he had numerous chances to take a significant advantage, then just throws it by letting himself get flanked by Zealots. He might have been able to accumulate a large enough advantage at that point that he could just win with a timing push.
Afterwards he makes only tanks and no vultures. I was thinking he would lose it the moment he overcommitted to the place behind bisus base, but Bisu tried to break it instead of counterattacking. However, flash kept doing that, with NO vultures and NO proper defenses at home, and so Bisu was going to win the second he decided to counterattack. Flash couldn't even go for a base race himself after seeing Bisu countering him because he was at a terrible position behind Bisu's base where he couldn't access the actually important parts of Bisus base fast enough to deal any kind of significant damage.
Especially the part where he snipes core and then makes a total of 0 vultures against the only unit Bisu could possibly make was just unbelievable.
Flash definitely wasn't in form again. I believe that sending out Hoejja would have given KT better chances of victory.
These are good points. My thoughts:
1) Bisu's proxy gate at the beginning wasn't intended to kill Flash, but rather to throw him off of the stylized games which Flash has millions of repetitions at. In games that go the "normal" way, Flash has the best mechanics, and the best chance of winning.
2) For microing marines vs. zealots at the beginning of the game, you have to consider that Flash is rattled, probably dealing with nerves on the big stage. In addition, his infrastructure is not where he expects it to be, so microing while macroing is so much harder.
3) Flash did have significant defenses at home: a bunker and three siege tanks set up. This is a great defense against the typical Protoss composition. It's hard to anticipate a speed zealot counter going in that hard that fast, because it just doesn't happen very often in PvT.
4) I would definitely send out Flash over Hoejja, regardless of how well Hoejja was playing. The KT coach said in the end that Flash really wanted to take the challenge of the ACE match map, even though it's clearly P favored (SKT picked the map.)
Hm, has the game changed that much since I've played? Protoss usually always counterattacked Terran if they didn't mine up because they could get away with that and retreat to defend. 3 tanks and a bunker only would work against pure goon, and a very modest amount at that.
I wasn't really talking about the micro vs Zealots, it was decent, but his decisions to move out to get flanked instead of just sitting back were completely puzzling. He could have had his first factory out like 30 seconds faster too. Marines very quickly reach a critical mass against Zealots, he should have sat back until reaching it instead of moving out before that and losing numerous ones to Zealots needlessly, multiple times.
That last point of yours doesn't convince me at all, I still think Hoejja would have been a perfect fit. I guess it just makes me sad that the final game of the series was the worst of them all, kind of anticlimactic (I personally don't care about who wins)
I'd like to echo the sentiment about KT Zerg....really good show. I remember little Action back on eSTRO, and Hoejja talking mystically about how JD is 'in the 4th dimension.' I'm glad they could capture a little glory today.
As amazing a final as that was and as incredible a storyline the ace match provided, I honestly felt nothing but sadness after Flash gg'd. It just felt like a cruel ending to something that deserves so much more from certain parties.....The closure of MBC and all the resulting stories from that just makes me
That said amazing games from all involved and delighted to see Fanta beat Flash :D
On April 08 2012 23:56 Spica wrote: Revenge is so, so sweet. Victory is ours, T1 fans!
It's only appropriate that the founding fathers of BW legacies, SKT, also close the ending to this epic tale. KT fought well, but it was not meant to be.
The finals this time really delivered, and I feel incredibly lucky to have witnessed them live. What an exciting, roller coaster ride of a series.
Hopefully this won't be the final chapter to the grand story of BW, and may there be many more Proleague finals to come!
Thanks to Hyde for making the LR thread again, all of our awesome streamers as usual, and to every BW fan for showing their love and support for this game. I always get delighted to see new fans showing their interest in these LR threads!
Congratulations to SKT, Proleague champions of 2012!!
<3 Spica. I'm so glad we all watched this together.
I remember during PL season Flash beat BeSt by exploiting some map advantages - it's part of the game. And that's the exact reason teams have coaches to predict matchups and maps.
On April 08 2012 23:37 Shikyo wrote: Okay, time to be serious now I guess.
Flash played awfully that last game. In the early game he had numerous chances to take a significant advantage, then just throws it by letting himself get flanked by Zealots. He might have been able to accumulate a large enough advantage at that point that he could just win with a timing push.
Afterwards he makes only tanks and no vultures. I was thinking he would lose it the moment he overcommitted to the place behind bisus base, but Bisu tried to break it instead of counterattacking. However, flash kept doing that, with NO vultures and NO proper defenses at home, and so Bisu was going to win the second he decided to counterattack. Flash couldn't even go for a base race himself after seeing Bisu countering him because he was at a terrible position behind Bisu's base where he couldn't access the actually important parts of Bisus base fast enough to deal any kind of significant damage.
Especially the part where he snipes core and then makes a total of 0 vultures against the only unit Bisu could possibly make was just unbelievable.
Flash definitely wasn't in form again. I believe that sending out Hoejja would have given KT better chances of victory.
These are good points. My thoughts:
1) Bisu's proxy gate at the beginning wasn't intended to kill Flash, but rather to throw him off of the stylized games which Flash has millions of repetitions at. In games that go the "normal" way, Flash has the best mechanics, and the best chance of winning.
2) For microing marines vs. zealots at the beginning of the game, you have to consider that Flash is rattled, probably dealing with nerves on the big stage. In addition, his infrastructure is not where he expects it to be, so microing while macroing is so much harder.
3) Flash did have significant defenses at home: a bunker and three siege tanks set up. This is a great defense against the typical Protoss composition. It's hard to anticipate a speed zealot counter going in that hard that fast, because it just doesn't happen very often in PvT.
4) I would definitely send out Flash over Hoejja, regardless of how well Hoejja was playing. The KT coach said in the end that Flash really wanted to take the challenge of the ACE match map, even though it's clearly P favored (SKT picked the map.)
3) Flash made a mistake with his composition after taking out the cybernetics core but like you said, he was rattled after that ridiculous start and mid game.
To be fair to Flash I'm quite sure every other protoss in the world would have died to Flash after he got behind bisu's main.
That's part of people's deal with this, I think. Bisu didn't do anything special at that point. He even got his units misdirected (they were wandering around) in trying to attack Flash's units after the bunker went up. It's just his other tech was farther than Flash would've wanted.
On April 08 2012 23:44 rabidch wrote: they gave bisu mvp? what? am i reading this right?
fantasy was the guy who carried skt on his back this season, and if he didnt beat flash in game 2, who knows wouldve happened
It seems Fantasy is destined to be relegated to number 2 even when he's number 1. He wins an OSL but doesn't leave Kong line because it was against Stork, then he carries his team to the finals and straight up outplays Flash in Flash's best MU, but doesn't get MVP. But then again you should probably give the player who wins the most important ace match the MVP. And Bisu hasn't won anything except WL in ages.
Fantasy already got one, though, when he destroyed JD in the '08-'09 Proleague finals.
Oh yeah. That was also with a proxy in the ace match LOL.
*Winces*. I did not need to be reminded of that PL finals...
Congrats to SKT. Need to actually watch that ace match.
On April 08 2012 23:37 Shikyo wrote: Okay, time to be serious now I guess.
Flash played awfully that last game. In the early game he had numerous chances to take a significant advantage, then just throws it by letting himself get flanked by Zealots. He might have been able to accumulate a large enough advantage at that point that he could just win with a timing push.
Afterwards he makes only tanks and no vultures. I was thinking he would lose it the moment he overcommitted to the place behind bisus base, but Bisu tried to break it instead of counterattacking. However, flash kept doing that, with NO vultures and NO proper defenses at home, and so Bisu was going to win the second he decided to counterattack. Flash couldn't even go for a base race himself after seeing Bisu countering him because he was at a terrible position behind Bisu's base where he couldn't access the actually important parts of Bisus base fast enough to deal any kind of significant damage.
Especially the part where he snipes core and then makes a total of 0 vultures against the only unit Bisu could possibly make was just unbelievable.
Flash definitely wasn't in form again. I believe that sending out Hoejja would have given KT better chances of victory.
1) Bisu's proxy gate at the beginning wasn't intended to kill Flash, but rather to throw him off of the stylized games which Flash has millions of repetitions at. In games that go the "normal" way, Flash has the best mechanics, and the best chance of winning.
2) For microing marines vs. zealots at the beginning of the game, you have to consider that Flash is rattled, probably dealing with nerves on the big stage. In addition, his infrastructure is not where he expects it to be, so microing while macroing is so much harder.
3) Flash did have significant defenses at home: a bunker and three siege tanks set up. This is a great defense against the typical Protoss composition. It's hard to anticipate a speed zealot counter going in that hard that fast, because it just doesn't happen very often in PvT.
4) I would definitely send out Flash over Hoejja, regardless of how well Hoejja was playing. The KT coach said in the end that Flash really wanted to take the challenge of the ACE match map, even though it's clearly P favored (SKT picked the map.)
I think it's good coaching to send out someone who won their set, especially someone who just came from winning who still has his high. I realize Flash wanted to do it, but HoeJJa has just been in amazing form, it's something to take advantage of.
I don't think this is how it works, that coaches pick players on the fly after game 6. I think the coaches decide who should prepare for an Ace match long before the actual match. The picked player that preps a bunch of strategies, depending on who they expect the opponent to be.
On April 08 2012 23:37 Shikyo wrote: Okay, time to be serious now I guess.
Flash played awfully that last game. In the early game he had numerous chances to take a significant advantage, then just throws it by letting himself get flanked by Zealots. He might have been able to accumulate a large enough advantage at that point that he could just win with a timing push.
Afterwards he makes only tanks and no vultures. I was thinking he would lose it the moment he overcommitted to the place behind bisus base, but Bisu tried to break it instead of counterattacking. However, flash kept doing that, with NO vultures and NO proper defenses at home, and so Bisu was going to win the second he decided to counterattack. Flash couldn't even go for a base race himself after seeing Bisu countering him because he was at a terrible position behind Bisu's base where he couldn't access the actually important parts of Bisus base fast enough to deal any kind of significant damage.
Especially the part where he snipes core and then makes a total of 0 vultures against the only unit Bisu could possibly make was just unbelievable.
Flash definitely wasn't in form again. I believe that sending out Hoejja would have given KT better chances of victory.
These are good points. My thoughts:
1) Bisu's proxy gate at the beginning wasn't intended to kill Flash, but rather to throw him off of the stylized games which Flash has millions of repetitions at. In games that go the "normal" way, Flash has the best mechanics, and the best chance of winning.
2) For microing marines vs. zealots at the beginning of the game, you have to consider that Flash is rattled, probably dealing with nerves on the big stage. In addition, his infrastructure is not where he expects it to be, so microing while macroing is so much harder.
3) Flash did have significant defenses at home: a bunker and three siege tanks set up. This is a great defense against the typical Protoss composition. It's hard to anticipate a speed zealot counter going in that hard that fast, because it just doesn't happen very often in PvT.
4) I would definitely send out Flash over Hoejja, regardless of how well Hoejja was playing. The KT coach said in the end that Flash really wanted to take the challenge of the ACE match map, even though it's clearly P favored (SKT picked the map.)
Hm, has the game changed that much since I've played? Protoss usually always counterattacked Terran if they didn't mine up because they could get away with that and retreat to defend. 3 tanks and a bunker only would work against pure goon, and a very modest amount at that.
I wasn't really talking about the micro vs Zealots, it was decent, but his decisions to move out to get flanked instead of just sitting back were completely puzzling. He could have had his first factory out like 30 seconds faster too. Marines very quickly reach a critical mass against Zealots, he should have sat back until reaching it instead of moving out before that and losing numerous ones to Zealots needlessly, multiple times.
That last point of yours doesn't convince me at all, I still think Hoejja would have been a perfect fit. I guess it just makes me sad that the final game of the series was the worst of them all, kind of anticlimactic (I personally don't care about who wins)
Anticlimatic is not the word most people would use to describe that last game. Sorry the game didn't live up to your standards.
I think Flash was expecting for Bisu to wait for a second cycore and so did not expect a speedlot train. And maybe, Flash was planning to expand behind that push to the back.
Anyway thanks for streaming this epic match, the LR thread and the translations!
On April 08 2012 23:37 Shikyo wrote: Okay, time to be serious now I guess.
Flash played awfully that last game. In the early game he had numerous chances to take a significant advantage, then just throws it by letting himself get flanked by Zealots. He might have been able to accumulate a large enough advantage at that point that he could just win with a timing push.
Afterwards he makes only tanks and no vultures. I was thinking he would lose it the moment he overcommitted to the place behind bisus base, but Bisu tried to break it instead of counterattacking. However, flash kept doing that, with NO vultures and NO proper defenses at home, and so Bisu was going to win the second he decided to counterattack. Flash couldn't even go for a base race himself after seeing Bisu countering him because he was at a terrible position behind Bisu's base where he couldn't access the actually important parts of Bisus base fast enough to deal any kind of significant damage.
Especially the part where he snipes core and then makes a total of 0 vultures against the only unit Bisu could possibly make was just unbelievable.
Flash definitely wasn't in form again. I believe that sending out Hoejja would have given KT better chances of victory.
These are good points. My thoughts:
1) Bisu's proxy gate at the beginning wasn't intended to kill Flash, but rather to throw him off of the stylized games which Flash has millions of repetitions at. In games that go the "normal" way, Flash has the best mechanics, and the best chance of winning.
2) For microing marines vs. zealots at the beginning of the game, you have to consider that Flash is rattled, probably dealing with nerves on the big stage. In addition, his infrastructure is not where he expects it to be, so microing while macroing is so much harder.
3) Flash did have significant defenses at home: a bunker and three siege tanks set up. This is a great defense against the typical Protoss composition. It's hard to anticipate a speed zealot counter going in that hard that fast, because it just doesn't happen very often in PvT.
4) I would definitely send out Flash over Hoejja, regardless of how well Hoejja was playing. The KT coach said in the end that Flash really wanted to take the challenge of the ACE match map, even though it's clearly P favored (SKT picked the map.)
Hm, has the game changed that much since I've played? Protoss usually always counterattacked Terran if they didn't mine up because they could get away with that and retreat to defend. 3 tanks and a bunker only would work against pure goon, and a very modest amount at that.
I wasn't really talking about the micro vs Zealots, it was decent, but his decisions to move out to get flanked instead of just sitting back were completely puzzling. He could have had his first factory out like 30 seconds faster too. Marines very quickly reach a critical mass against Zealots, he should have sat back until reaching it instead of moving out before that and losing numerous ones to Zealots needlessly, multiple times.
That last point of yours doesn't convince me at all, I still think Hoejja would have been a perfect fit. I guess it just makes me sad that the final game of the series was the worst of them all, kind of anticlimactic (I personally don't care about who wins)
So Hoejja vs Bisu will bring a different outcome?
At the very least, the game would've been far better.
On April 08 2012 23:56 Spica wrote: Revenge is so, so sweet. Victory is ours, T1 fans!
It's only appropriate that the founding fathers of BW legacies, SKT, also close the ending to this epic tale. KT fought well, but it was not meant to be.
The finals this time really delivered, and I feel incredibly lucky to have witnessed them live. What an exciting, roller coaster ride of a series.
Hopefully this won't be the final chapter to the grand story of BW, and may there be many more Proleague finals to come!
Thanks to Hyde for making the LR thread again, all of our awesome streamers as usual, and to every BW fan for showing their love and support for this game. I always get delighted to see new fans showing their interest in these LR threads!
Congratulations to SKT, Proleague champions of 2012!!
<3 Spica. I'm so glad we all watched this together.
Indeed! It's good to see all the familiar faces again. :D I'll definitely tune in for the OSL finals too, can't wait to see how that will turn out! It'll be hard to top Jangbi's cinderella story run though...
On April 08 2012 23:59 sinistral wrote: All those delicious KT fan tears, I want to shower in them so bad.
meh talk all you want I am proud of my players today at least we went down gun blazing rather than a total 4-0 from skt .
I'm sure almost all KT fans feel this way about the fact our second string players really stepped up their game; anti fans just want to indulge in Schadenfreude because that's just how fandom works (which is perfectly okay). The only tears shed were by Flash, which as heartbreaking as it was to see, didn't detract too much from the quality of the finals.
On April 08 2012 23:37 Shikyo wrote: Okay, time to be serious now I guess.
Flash played awfully that last game. In the early game he had numerous chances to take a significant advantage, then just throws it by letting himself get flanked by Zealots. He might have been able to accumulate a large enough advantage at that point that he could just win with a timing push.
Afterwards he makes only tanks and no vultures. I was thinking he would lose it the moment he overcommitted to the place behind bisus base, but Bisu tried to break it instead of counterattacking. However, flash kept doing that, with NO vultures and NO proper defenses at home, and so Bisu was going to win the second he decided to counterattack. Flash couldn't even go for a base race himself after seeing Bisu countering him because he was at a terrible position behind Bisu's base where he couldn't access the actually important parts of Bisus base fast enough to deal any kind of significant damage.
Especially the part where he snipes core and then makes a total of 0 vultures against the only unit Bisu could possibly make was just unbelievable.
Flash definitely wasn't in form again. I believe that sending out Hoejja would have given KT better chances of victory.
These are good points. My thoughts:
1) Bisu's proxy gate at the beginning wasn't intended to kill Flash, but rather to throw him off of the stylized games which Flash has millions of repetitions at. In games that go the "normal" way, Flash has the best mechanics, and the best chance of winning.
2) For microing marines vs. zealots at the beginning of the game, you have to consider that Flash is rattled, probably dealing with nerves on the big stage. In addition, his infrastructure is not where he expects it to be, so microing while macroing is so much harder.
3) Flash did have significant defenses at home: a bunker and three siege tanks set up. This is a great defense against the typical Protoss composition. It's hard to anticipate a speed zealot counter going in that hard that fast, because it just doesn't happen very often in PvT.
4) I would definitely send out Flash over Hoejja, regardless of how well Hoejja was playing. The KT coach said in the end that Flash really wanted to take the challenge of the ACE match map, even though it's clearly P favored (SKT picked the map.)
Hm, has the game changed that much since I've played? Protoss usually always counterattacked Terran if they didn't mine up because they could get away with that and retreat to defend. 3 tanks and a bunker only would work against pure goon, and a very modest amount at that.
I wasn't really talking about the micro vs Zealots, it was decent, but his decisions to move out to get flanked instead of just sitting back were completely puzzling. He could have had his first factory out like 30 seconds faster too. Marines very quickly reach a critical mass against Zealots, he should have sat back until reaching it instead of moving out before that and losing numerous ones to Zealots needlessly, multiple times.
That last point of yours doesn't convince me at all, I still think Hoejja would have been a perfect fit. I guess it just makes me sad that the final game of the series was the worst of them all, kind of anticlimactic (I personally don't care about who wins)
Anticlimatic is not the word most people would use to describe that last game. Sorry the game didn't live up to your standards.
That was the greatest series.
I would use it to describe it. It's like all this shit going on and then it just ends in the most unspectacular way possible. It's like if the MC of a story got the villain to his final form but then the final form just does some desperation move and ends it.
On April 08 2012 23:37 Shikyo wrote: Okay, time to be serious now I guess.
Flash played awfully that last game. In the early game he had numerous chances to take a significant advantage, then just throws it by letting himself get flanked by Zealots. He might have been able to accumulate a large enough advantage at that point that he could just win with a timing push.
Afterwards he makes only tanks and no vultures. I was thinking he would lose it the moment he overcommitted to the place behind bisus base, but Bisu tried to break it instead of counterattacking. However, flash kept doing that, with NO vultures and NO proper defenses at home, and so Bisu was going to win the second he decided to counterattack. Flash couldn't even go for a base race himself after seeing Bisu countering him because he was at a terrible position behind Bisu's base where he couldn't access the actually important parts of Bisus base fast enough to deal any kind of significant damage.
Especially the part where he snipes core and then makes a total of 0 vultures against the only unit Bisu could possibly make was just unbelievable.
Flash definitely wasn't in form again. I believe that sending out Hoejja would have given KT better chances of victory.
These are good points. My thoughts:
1) Bisu's proxy gate at the beginning wasn't intended to kill Flash, but rather to throw him off of the stylized games which Flash has millions of repetitions at. In games that go the "normal" way, Flash has the best mechanics, and the best chance of winning.
2) For microing marines vs. zealots at the beginning of the game, you have to consider that Flash is rattled, probably dealing with nerves on the big stage. In addition, his infrastructure is not where he expects it to be, so microing while macroing is so much harder.
3) Flash did have significant defenses at home: a bunker and three siege tanks set up. This is a great defense against the typical Protoss composition. It's hard to anticipate a speed zealot counter going in that hard that fast, because it just doesn't happen very often in PvT.
4) I would definitely send out Flash over Hoejja, regardless of how well Hoejja was playing. The KT coach said in the end that Flash really wanted to take the challenge of the ACE match map, even though it's clearly P favored (SKT picked the map.)
Hm, has the game changed that much since I've played? Protoss usually always counterattacked Terran if they didn't mine up because they could get away with that and retreat to defend. 3 tanks and a bunker only would work against pure goon, and a very modest amount at that.
I wasn't really talking about the micro vs Zealots, it was decent, but his decisions to move out to get flanked instead of just sitting back were completely puzzling. He could have had his first factory out like 30 seconds faster too. Marines very quickly reach a critical mass against Zealots, he should have sat back until reaching it instead of moving out before that and losing numerous ones to Zealots needlessly, multiple times.
That last point of yours doesn't convince me at all, I still think Hoejja would have been a perfect fit. I guess it just makes me sad that the final game of the series was the worst of them all, kind of anticlimactic (I personally don't care about who wins)
C'mon, for sheer entertainment value? Clearly, Bisu vs. Flash is the best possible ACE match.
EPT
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/eAXVo.jpg)
