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On September 12 2010 12:04 moopie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2010 11:57 infinity2k9 wrote:On September 12 2010 11:49 moopie wrote:On September 12 2010 11:04 infinity2k9 wrote:
Flash is 'bonjwa' cause he can choose the build he wants and ride it to victory, gg congrats... of course hes the best terran player ever but im just not happy with it. Zerg deserves a chance. Even a clever burrow move gets shut down with zero loss, wtf? Terran on 2base is literally unbreakable somehow, i know Flash is excellent at defence but cmon.. if done well you CANNOT break the defence at all. its actually impossible.
Even after building an impossible to break 4 bunkers at nat, you can simply move to main and defend with no problem.. the units are too cost effective. JD unburrowed those lings about a second before the mutas joined in, so by the time the mutas got there the lings were already mostly dead, he didn't time that attack properly. And zerg had a chance, remember swarm season? its protoss that haven't dominated much aside from the dragons in 08-09. Seriously, in all your recent posts all you seem to do is QQ about how JD is the greatest ever but terran is just too imba, nevermind the fact that Flash aside, JD was 70% vT this past year. So all the terrans suck ass against JD, but when Flash wins its "omfgwtfbbqhax terran imba!".. yeah sc2 forums are that-a-way. On September 12 2010 11:25 infinity2k9 wrote:
He went 4pool because of the maps.. and by the time his first drop came swarm was nowhere near out in the 4th game. It was impossible to pull off somehow even though Flash did a failed 5rax, i just hate it. The fact a player like Light can be good at TvZ but suck at everything else completely is a good indication of what this matchup is like at true high level. One way a mistake is gg the other its a setback. Unless Zerg completely guesses a total build order win then they are behind... So clearly the reason why Skyhigh is good at TvT but sucks at everything else is a good indication of what that matchup is like at true high level.. oh wait. And the 5-rax didn't really fail, because while he didn't kill of the nat, he took out almost all of JD's drones, so he ended up breaking even (at least), just like how the 4 pool didn't really fail, even though JD didn't win the game with it, but he did take out almost all the SCVs. Yeah guy, you're kind of running on empty here. TvZ in 'swarm season' was 50% overall still. And just the fact he unburrowed a second too early caused him the loss, while Flash ran a whole control group of rines into stacked lurkers, how is that fair? I believe Protoss has a tough time too indeed and ZvP is also a ridiculous matchup at high-levels.. and these days when played well even TvP is favoured one way. I'm not a zerg sympathizer and if anything JD should have lost vs Stork.. Like i said before, TvZ is 54% overall. At such a high level this imbalance is going to show itself more. There's a whole history of terrans such as Casy and FBH who prove it already, i know no one likes to admit it but its seriously favoured one way. Count the units going into that, Flash had 22 marines (with stim), 1 firebat and 5 medics in that attack (possibly a couple more marines in the back, was hard to get them all on the screen at once), since he went for a 4-rax aggressive opening. JD had 12 burrowed lings, 5-6 additional unburrowed ones and around 7-8 mutas. JD tried to play it more econ and get a midgame advantage (like taking that early 3rd), which is perfectly fine, but it doesn't work against an aggressive opening like that. I guess JD either expected a 2 rax opening from flash -> less marines, or that Flash would run forward so JD could unburrow afterwards and demolish his main. Doesn't always work like it, though it would have been a good strategy had it played out like that. It just came down to flash being aggressive, and JD building up for a latergame. JD was heavily outnumbered in that attack, and unburrowing 12 lings from under 20+ marines (w/ stim) a second before the rest of the units arrive doesn't help. That's like accidentally walking 6 goons into the range of 12 tanks for a second before realizing it and trying to back out, doesn't work well. I mean, if Flash goes 14cc (blind or after scout), people complain about his midgame advantage. If flash turtles off 2 base and mechs, people complain. If flash goes aggressive, people complain. You say that TvZ is very imba, which I would agree that it does favor terrans somewhat (though maps have a lot to do with it). But again, JvT is hugely JD favored (70% vs any other non-flash terran), no other terran can put up a fight against him. Do people cry Z imba? no. JD and Flash are just on a whole different level, they find ways around the race/map favoring with their builds and executions. You can't have it both ways. And 1-hit wonder specialists (i.e snipers) exist for every matchup, not just TvZ. It has to do with a lot of things, like their playstyle, strategies, practice partners, etc.
When I was watching I really saw this as Flash countering JD's trap with his build. I think Flash's +1 was probably finished when he moved out (that is why he got the ebay, right?) and in addition he moved out later than normal (normal being going to force sunks before mutas) so he had a much bigger army. If you make Flash push out normally his marines just get devoured by the lings and JD either instantly wins or wins when his mutas get over there because Flash has no marines to defend.
In retrospect it might have been best for JD to just abandon the burrow trap when Flash didn't move out at the standard timing, but regardless he took a serious hit from the way Flash played (100/100 investment in burrow, and the drones he didn't get because he made lings that did nothing).
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On September 12 2010 14:28 b0lt wrote:Has anyone uploaded a video of the intro ceremony? I missed most of Flash speaking chinese poorly 
Check the vods, it's in the first match vod.
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On September 12 2010 11:19 Highways wrote:
gg Broodwar
Terran imba killed it.
No LR thread complete without a Highways post.
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On September 12 2010 14:33 crate wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2010 12:04 moopie wrote:On September 12 2010 11:57 infinity2k9 wrote:On September 12 2010 11:49 moopie wrote:On September 12 2010 11:04 infinity2k9 wrote:
Flash is 'bonjwa' cause he can choose the build he wants and ride it to victory, gg congrats... of course hes the best terran player ever but im just not happy with it. Zerg deserves a chance. Even a clever burrow move gets shut down with zero loss, wtf? Terran on 2base is literally unbreakable somehow, i know Flash is excellent at defence but cmon.. if done well you CANNOT break the defence at all. its actually impossible.
Even after building an impossible to break 4 bunkers at nat, you can simply move to main and defend with no problem.. the units are too cost effective. JD unburrowed those lings about a second before the mutas joined in, so by the time the mutas got there the lings were already mostly dead, he didn't time that attack properly. And zerg had a chance, remember swarm season? its protoss that haven't dominated much aside from the dragons in 08-09. Seriously, in all your recent posts all you seem to do is QQ about how JD is the greatest ever but terran is just too imba, nevermind the fact that Flash aside, JD was 70% vT this past year. So all the terrans suck ass against JD, but when Flash wins its "omfgwtfbbqhax terran imba!".. yeah sc2 forums are that-a-way. On September 12 2010 11:25 infinity2k9 wrote:
He went 4pool because of the maps.. and by the time his first drop came swarm was nowhere near out in the 4th game. It was impossible to pull off somehow even though Flash did a failed 5rax, i just hate it. The fact a player like Light can be good at TvZ but suck at everything else completely is a good indication of what this matchup is like at true high level. One way a mistake is gg the other its a setback. Unless Zerg completely guesses a total build order win then they are behind... So clearly the reason why Skyhigh is good at TvT but sucks at everything else is a good indication of what that matchup is like at true high level.. oh wait. And the 5-rax didn't really fail, because while he didn't kill of the nat, he took out almost all of JD's drones, so he ended up breaking even (at least), just like how the 4 pool didn't really fail, even though JD didn't win the game with it, but he did take out almost all the SCVs. Yeah guy, you're kind of running on empty here. TvZ in 'swarm season' was 50% overall still. And just the fact he unburrowed a second too early caused him the loss, while Flash ran a whole control group of rines into stacked lurkers, how is that fair? I believe Protoss has a tough time too indeed and ZvP is also a ridiculous matchup at high-levels.. and these days when played well even TvP is favoured one way. I'm not a zerg sympathizer and if anything JD should have lost vs Stork.. Like i said before, TvZ is 54% overall. At such a high level this imbalance is going to show itself more. There's a whole history of terrans such as Casy and FBH who prove it already, i know no one likes to admit it but its seriously favoured one way. Count the units going into that, Flash had 22 marines (with stim), 1 firebat and 5 medics in that attack (possibly a couple more marines in the back, was hard to get them all on the screen at once), since he went for a 4-rax aggressive opening. JD had 12 burrowed lings, 5-6 additional unburrowed ones and around 7-8 mutas. JD tried to play it more econ and get a midgame advantage (like taking that early 3rd), which is perfectly fine, but it doesn't work against an aggressive opening like that. I guess JD either expected a 2 rax opening from flash -> less marines, or that Flash would run forward so JD could unburrow afterwards and demolish his main. Doesn't always work like it, though it would have been a good strategy had it played out like that. It just came down to flash being aggressive, and JD building up for a latergame. JD was heavily outnumbered in that attack, and unburrowing 12 lings from under 20+ marines (w/ stim) a second before the rest of the units arrive doesn't help. That's like accidentally walking 6 goons into the range of 12 tanks for a second before realizing it and trying to back out, doesn't work well. I mean, if Flash goes 14cc (blind or after scout), people complain about his midgame advantage. If flash turtles off 2 base and mechs, people complain. If flash goes aggressive, people complain. You say that TvZ is very imba, which I would agree that it does favor terrans somewhat (though maps have a lot to do with it). But again, JvT is hugely JD favored (70% vs any other non-flash terran), no other terran can put up a fight against him. Do people cry Z imba? no. JD and Flash are just on a whole different level, they find ways around the race/map favoring with their builds and executions. You can't have it both ways. And 1-hit wonder specialists (i.e snipers) exist for every matchup, not just TvZ. It has to do with a lot of things, like their playstyle, strategies, practice partners, etc. When I was watching I really saw this as Flash countering JD's trap with his build. I think Flash's +1 was probably finished when he moved out (that is why he got the ebay, right?) and in addition he moved out later than normal (normal being going to force sunks before mutas) so he had a much bigger army. If you make Flash push out normally his marines just get devoured by the lings and JD either instantly wins or wins when his mutas get over there because Flash has no marines to defend. In retrospect it might have been best for JD to just abandon the burrow trap when Flash didn't move out at the standard timing, but regardless he took a serious hit from the way Flash played (100/100 investment in burrow, and the drones he didn't get because he made lings that did nothing).
Yes, flash's +1 also finished right before he moved out. I forgot that when I initially typed the reply, and since infinity2k9 replied and the matter was more or less dropped it wasn't really worth bringing up again. My point was that even without the bad unburrow timing, JD was outmatched in that fight cause he just didn't commit to it as much, which is why it wasn't fair to just say "well JD waited for him but terran imba so flash won".
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im happy to be part of this, share with all of you a part in the e-sport history... sc:bw reached the sky, flash an jaedong incarnate the climax of the game itself
Flash write this night his name with gold,
wide and strong u can read... BONJWA
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Also, why did every zerg, especially Jaedong, all but abandon 2 hatchery builds that dominated Swarm Season? All JD does now is 3 hatch and 4 pool. Oh, and some 9 pools.The former gives Flash too much time to macro easily and the latter two just seem to be a coin flip. You're pretty much fucked.
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On September 11 2010 21:20 LastActionHero wrote:poor Jaedong I cheered for Flash and he really deserved but I have an empty feeling in my stomache that wont go away easily
yeah me too. So happy Flash got his Golden Mouse, and I love to see him win. Somehow beating Jaedong in 3 finals in a row kind of hurts though
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On September 12 2010 15:04 MountainDewJunkie wrote:
Also, why did every zerg, especially Jaedong, all but abandon 2 hatchery builds that dominated Swarm Season? All JD does now is 3 hatch and 4 pool. Oh, and some 9 pools.The former gives Flash too much time to macro easily and the latter two just seem to be a coin flip. You're pretty much fucked.
I don't recall jaedong doing any 9 pools..?
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United States10774 Posts
On September 12 2010 12:11 Lebesgue wrote:
People always complain. That's the one universal truth.
The burrow might have worked earlier when Flash didn't have that many marines and a fb. But Flash must have sensed sth and he never moved out as he often does. So by the time he moved out he had huge army with an extra fb which really helps. And as moopie explained, Jaedong didn't timed attack well.
But Jaedong was still in game at time though at a quite disadvantageous position. He needed to secure 3rd in time. He didn't...
yep this is correct.
flash has an edge on jaedong in game sense and that's the feeling i get in every series they play. the way flash waited til gathering a larger force and 1+ upgrade because he sensed something strange simply amazes me.
i doubt no other terran reacted the way flash did when jaedong was practicing that burrow strategy. you have to be a different animal to win 80% in a span of 180+ games.
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edit: nm, posting while drunk
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missed the finals, it sucks.
I'm glad Flash was able to win it.. is he now the 5th Bonjwa? wow.. congratz.
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On September 12 2010 15:04 MountainDewJunkie wrote:
Also, why did every zerg, especially Jaedong, all but abandon 2 hatchery builds that dominated Swarm Season? All JD does now is 3 hatch and 4 pool. Oh, and some 9 pools.The former gives Flash too much time to macro easily and the latter two just seem to be a coin flip. You're pretty much fucked.
Flash has a really good timing when to push out and when to build turrets against 2 hatch and it is hard to do the necessary damage with 2 hatch mutas and establish your third base .
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jaedong's zvt hasn't looked the same
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Even though I'm a flash fan , feel quite bad for JD.
He"s an Exceptional Programmer , but His confidence right now has been shattered.
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On September 11 2010 19:46 Elroi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2010 19:45 De4ngus wrote:
Soooo... Flash loses all his marines to 3 lurkers. One gets 11 kills. But thats totally fine. JD's defiler gets sniped because it consumes less than half a second late = gg. Great. Thats tvz for you
you are 3000% right. this game / map pool / whatever is imbalanced. terran is so f*cking annoying, and so f*cking easy.
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On September 11 2010 20:54 ]343[ wrote:
OMG HOLY FUCK HOW DID HE BLOCK
because terran is an easier, imbalanced race in which 2 tanks and a vessel can MURDER a half dozen lurks and lings provided there are some buildings in the way. jesus i hate T
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On September 11 2010 21:18 SimonB wrote:
You know, after hating Jaedong as a rival these last two or three years, I do feel really bad for him. After repeatedly losing to Flash in the last three finals, he's gone from confident and angry to upset to destroyed to accepting his defeat. It's almost like he's expecting to lose now.
STOP DISRESPECTING JD HATEFUL ARROGANT PUSHTAK TERRAN
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On September 12 2010 12:29 infinity2k9 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2010 12:04 moopie wrote:On September 12 2010 11:57 infinity2k9 wrote:On September 12 2010 11:49 moopie wrote:On September 12 2010 11:04 infinity2k9 wrote:
Flash is 'bonjwa' cause he can choose the build he wants and ride it to victory, gg congrats... of course hes the best terran player ever but im just not happy with it. Zerg deserves a chance. Even a clever burrow move gets shut down with zero loss, wtf? Terran on 2base is literally unbreakable somehow, i know Flash is excellent at defence but cmon.. if done well you CANNOT break the defence at all. its actually impossible.
Even after building an impossible to break 4 bunkers at nat, you can simply move to main and defend with no problem.. the units are too cost effective. JD unburrowed those lings about a second before the mutas joined in, so by the time the mutas got there the lings were already mostly dead, he didn't time that attack properly. And zerg had a chance, remember swarm season? its protoss that haven't dominated much aside from the dragons in 08-09. Seriously, in all your recent posts all you seem to do is QQ about how JD is the greatest ever but terran is just too imba, nevermind the fact that Flash aside, JD was 70% vT this past year. So all the terrans suck ass against JD, but when Flash wins its "omfgwtfbbqhax terran imba!".. yeah sc2 forums are that-a-way. On September 12 2010 11:25 infinity2k9 wrote:
He went 4pool because of the maps.. and by the time his first drop came swarm was nowhere near out in the 4th game. It was impossible to pull off somehow even though Flash did a failed 5rax, i just hate it. The fact a player like Light can be good at TvZ but suck at everything else completely is a good indication of what this matchup is like at true high level. One way a mistake is gg the other its a setback. Unless Zerg completely guesses a total build order win then they are behind... So clearly the reason why Skyhigh is good at TvT but sucks at everything else is a good indication of what that matchup is like at true high level.. oh wait. And the 5-rax didn't really fail, because while he didn't kill of the nat, he took out almost all of JD's drones, so he ended up breaking even (at least), just like how the 4 pool didn't really fail, even though JD didn't win the game with it, but he did take out almost all the SCVs. Yeah guy, you're kind of running on empty here. TvZ in 'swarm season' was 50% overall still. And just the fact he unburrowed a second too early caused him the loss, while Flash ran a whole control group of rines into stacked lurkers, how is that fair? I believe Protoss has a tough time too indeed and ZvP is also a ridiculous matchup at high-levels.. and these days when played well even TvP is favoured one way. I'm not a zerg sympathizer and if anything JD should have lost vs Stork.. Like i said before, TvZ is 54% overall. At such a high level this imbalance is going to show itself more. There's a whole history of terrans such as Casy and FBH who prove it already, i know no one likes to admit it but its seriously favoured one way. Count the units going into that, Flash had 22 marines (with stim), 1 firebat and 5 medics in that attack (possibly a couple more marines in the back, was hard to get them all on the screen at once), since he went for a 4-rax aggressive opening. JD had 12 burrowed lings, 5-6 additional unburrowed ones and around 7-8 mutas. JD tried to play it more econ and get a midgame advantage (like taking that early 3rd), which is perfectly fine, but it doesn't work against an aggressive opening like that. I guess JD either expected a 2 rax opening from flash -> less marines, or that Flash would run forward so JD could unburrow afterwards and demolish his main. Doesn't always work like it, though it would have been a good strategy had it played out like that. It just came down to flash being aggressive, and JD building up for a latergame. JD was heavily outnumbered in that attack, and unburrowing 12 lings from under 20+ marines (w/ stim) a second before the rest of the units arrive doesn't help. That's like accidentally walking 6 goons into the range of 12 tanks for a second before realizing it and trying to back out, doesn't work well. I mean, if Flash goes 14cc (blind or after scout), people complain about his midgame advantage. If flash turtles off 2 base and mechs, people complain. If flash goes aggressive, people complain. You say that TvZ is very imba, which I would agree that it does favor terrans somewhat (though maps have a lot to do with it). But again, JvT is hugely JD favored (70% vs any other non-flash terran), no other terran can put up a fight against him. Do people cry Z imba? no. JD and Flash are just on a whole different level, they find ways around the race/map favoring with their builds and executions. You can't have it both ways. And 1-hit wonder specialists (i.e snipers) exist for every matchup, not just TvZ. It has to do with a lot of things, like their playstyle, strategies, practice partners, etc. Yeah, i agree with your analysis, sorry i'm just frustrated that it seems like no matter what choice the Z does they can fall behind unless its 100% perfect execution. I just feel bad seeing JD apologize for his play when really what could he have done...
i'm right there with you man. the key point you make is that for equally matched Z and T players, unless the "Z plays perfectly they will fall behind. T can afford to make mistakes. The game is imbalanced. ( or , at the very least, this map pool is )"
User was temp banned for this post.
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On September 12 2010 21:23 karlkarlson wrote:because terran is an easier, imbalanced race in which 2 tanks and a vessel can MURDER a half dozen lurks and lings provided there are some buildings in the way. jesus i hate T
Please don't bring terran imbalances to this thread. If you want to talk about imbalance, bring it back into the sc2 forums
And fyi im a jaedong fan.
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Why don't the mods go banhammer on all these people derailing the thread with talks of imbalance and abuse of players? Kinda frustrating when Flash just demolished JD and is now widely recognised as a bonjwa and still majority of the posts are about how bullshit the maps/tvz/flash is.
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EPT
