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It's been a long time (about a decade) since I played chess competitively, and I was never very good (three digits USCF, though underrated a bit, so probably "should" have been 1000 to 1100 or so). Nor am I that good at SC, so you should probably take what I say with a small amount of salt. ;-)
That said, I don't recall ever hearing certain openings referred to as "cheese", or some openings looked down upon the way a lot of people look at the all-ins in Starcraft. I think there are a couple reasons for this. One is the stated fact that chess is a game of perfect information and SC isn't. Think of the number of times you've heard the phrase "build order loss" during a SC commentary. Chess just has no equivalent of, say, a 4pool vs 14cc game.
The other reason is that chess seems to have less leeway for all-ins in general, probably because there's not really any equivalent of micro, or really pure mechanics at all. I don't sit there and say "well, I think I might be able to pull this off because my knight can micro against his rook and I'm better at it than he is." What are you going to do, hope your opponent gets flustered and his hand brushes the wrong piece? As a result, you don't really have openings that are aimed at doing an all-in.
(There are occasionally all-in-like things in chess, but they're uncommon. One of the closest examples I can think of was one of the first Kasparov vs Deep Blue games, where IIRC Kasparov did some weird-ass opening trying to get Deep Blue off-book. He lost.)
There are definite similarities between SC builds and chess openings (you could say that the TL wiki has a mini MCO for SC in it), but as you say, it's not a perfect analogy.
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jaedong is bonjwa. i see no comprehensive doubt about it.
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On September 21 2010 12:00 EvanED wrote:
(There are occasionally all-in-like things in chess, but they're uncommon. One of the closest examples I can think of was one of the first Kasparov vs Deep Blue games, where IIRC Kasparov did some weird-ass opening trying to get Deep Blue off-book. He lost.)
There are definite similarities between SC builds and chess openings (you could say that the TL wiki has a mini MCO for SC in it), but as you say, it's not a perfect analogy.
There are all sorts of gambits at club level that are based entirely on you knowing the line and your opponent having no idea what's going on (Scandinavian, Blackmar-Diemar, Grob, etc). I played Blackmar-Diemer as white every game, and Scandinavian against e4 as black every game up to 1600. There's obviously nothing like 4 pool vs 14cc because it's a perfect information game, but if you know your opening better than your opponent does, you can get an advantage. If they know the line against a gambit, though, you just throw away pieces, so it's sort of an all-in.
edit: Also the analogy gets a lot better if you consider Kriegspiel
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What? The Scandinavian is a standard opening.
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If you think chess is about mind games then you really don't know how to play chess. As already mentioned since you have complete information when playing chess you should ALWAYS try to make the best move and not try to trick your opponent in making a mistake. Chess is about being able to think ahead and try to figure it wich the best move is no matter who your opponent is.
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On September 22 2010 15:17 Loffeman wrote:
If you think chess is about mind games then you really don't know how to play chess. As already mentioned since you have complete information when playing chess you should ALWAYS try to make the best move and not try to trick your opponent in making a mistake. Chess is about being able to think ahead and try to figure it wich the best move is no matter who your opponent is.
Man, reading comprehension is a big fail here. Nobody is saying chess is "about mind games". I'm no pro or whatever but I'm floating around 1850 USCF so I think I have a basic idea of what chess is about. I don't know how much I would have to write to correct everything that is wrong with this post, but since you don't want to read the posts I'll summarize it for you:
Guy A: I don't like how these series are getting decided by 'mind games', if Flash had played standard Jaedong would have beat him straight up.
Me: Well, what you call 'mind games' could be thought of as something like opening theory in chess, where Top-10 players are constantly analyzing each other's openings to look for holes and surprises so that they can play theoretical novelties that they have deeply analyzed at home that will force their opponents to find the correct responses over the board in pressured situations. In BW, the game has developed so much that there are a limited number of viable opening choices in any matchup, and therefore playing something offbeat or novel can throw off the opponent and give a player an edge. That's what happened in the MSL, and because Flash "got inside Jaedong's head" -- aka did his research, studied his opponent, and came up with an opening strategy that would throw him off his game, he won the first two sets easily. I don't think that is any less skillful than 'standard play', and if anything it adds another dimension to the game*
*Caveat: Yes, Flash is by no means the first player to do this
Guy B: You are crazy if you think chess is about mind games! You don't know what you are talking about!
Me: Rolleyes.
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On September 22 2010 15:17 Loffeman wrote:
If you think chess is about mind games then you really don't know how to play chess. As already mentioned since you have complete information when playing chess you should ALWAYS try to make the best move and not try to trick your opponent in making a mistake. Chess is about being able to think ahead and try to figure it wich the best move is no matter who your opponent is.
You have apparently never heard of Duncan Suttles. There are plenty of mind games in chess. Have you never heard of playing the opponent, not the board?!
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Vatican City State2594 Posts
On September 23 2010 06:32 GolemMadness wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2010 15:17 Loffeman wrote:
If you think chess is about mind games then you really don't know how to play chess. As already mentioned since you have complete information when playing chess you should ALWAYS try to make the best move and not try to trick your opponent in making a mistake. Chess is about being able to think ahead and try to figure it wich the best move is no matter who your opponent is. You have apparently never heard of Duncan Suttles. There are plenty of mind games in chess. Have you never heard of playing the opponent, not the board?!
More than anything you are playing yourself IMO
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I don't see how Flash was playing 'mind games' anyway. If anything it was Jaedong attempting it with the double 4pool causing Flash to change his game 4 plan. Flash's first strategies were hardly offbeat or novel, just exploiting the Zergs lack of scouting options.
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It did seem like the double 4pool influenced flash kind of. You can see after set 3 flash kinda waves his head as if "you wanna do the cheese game bro? sure, i can play dat game, lets see u keep up with my cheese" right before his rax cheese in the next set
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haha, what a picture of JD. Those were some great matches though, love both these guys.
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Russian Federation4405 Posts
to those who like posting this rage-pic of JD thinking that it's rage against Flash or something... I'd like to remind that it's a picture of Batoo OSL finals when he won against Fantasy 
Sorry for joining the bump, but that probably needed to be said))
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EPT
