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5930 Posts
Perhaps the other 2 finals do show Flash's dominance over JD, but I hardly find mindgames to be the ideal measure of one's skills. If it was a series of macro-oriented games it would be far more telling.
"Mindgames" is a part a player's skill, every single great player has won whole series matches through "mindgames" and without it they would just be like Leta, Light, or Sea (good but will never achieve anything because all they can do is smash armies together or build wraiths).
Seriously...
- July was far from his prime yet utterly broke Best because he cheesed the first set.
- Oov was literally all "mindgames", his mechanics were nothing to write home about but he stil won because he was able to make players do what he wanted.
- Flash was able to beat Stork in less than an hour due to "mindgames"
- Stork was able to proxy gate Fantasy on Chupung-Ryeong due to "mindgames". Stork even said in the Winners Interview being a perfect mechanical player is useless if you can't win the "mindgames" portion of the game.
Winners are players who can play the "mindgame" and it is simply one of the most important parts of series matches. I don't see how you cannot deny this, all great players who win series matches constantly are the ones who can do this extremely well. What matters at the end of the day is whether or not you actually win, not how good you can macro or micro...if that was the case Oov probably wouldn't have won anything because he simply wasn't good at any of this stuff.
Even if "mindgames" didn't matter and everyone went through the same build order every time, Flash would still probably be the undisputed king since he's the champion of mashing large scale armies together, that's why his late game is always so stupidly strong.
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I really thought 4 pool would have taken out Flash easily considering how he FE's so much. I'm really surprised that it ended up failing the 2nd time, however it was a gamble. If Flash went CC before rax, it would have worked. Props to JD for doing it though, at least it shows that Flash can beat 4pool cheese also.
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On September 13 2010 21:00 moopie wrote:They're getting along, why can't we? ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/B6DjX.jpg) + Show Spoiler +
These pics are great, thanks for putting them up!
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On September 13 2010 19:40 Womwomwom wrote:Show nested quote +Perhaps the other 2 finals do show Flash's dominance over JD, but I hardly find mindgames to be the ideal measure of one's skills. If it was a series of macro-oriented games it would be far more telling. "Mindgames" is a part a player's skill, every single great player has won whole series matches through "mindgames" and without it they would just be like Leta, Light, or Sea (good but will never achieve anything because all they can do is smash armies together or build wraiths). Seriously... - July was far from his prime yet utterly broke Best because he cheesed the first set. - Oov was literally all "mindgames", his mechanics were nothing to write home about but he stil won because he was able to make players do what he wanted.
- Flash was able to beat Stork in less than an hour due to "mindgames" - Stork was able to proxy gate Fantasy on Chupung-Ryeong due to "mindgames". Stork even said in the Winners Interview being a perfect mechanical player is useless if you can't win the "mindgames" portion of the game. Winners are players who can play the "mindgame" and it is simply one of the most important parts of series matches. I don't see how you cannot deny this, all great players who win series matches constantly are the ones who can do this extremely well. What matters at the end of the day is whether or not you actually win, not how good you can macro or micro...if that was the case Oov probably wouldn't have won anything because he simply wasn't good at any of this stuff. Even if "mindgames" didn't matter and everyone went through the same build order every time, Flash would still probably be the undisputed king since he's the champion of mashing large scale armies together, that's why his late game is always so stupidly strong.
uh... you seriously can't be talking about the Cheater Terran who basically redefined the world of macro? The man who went 5-0 in Starleague finals? His mechanics, I think we can all agree, were the best in the entire world at that time.
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I dislike Flash even more than I dislike Jaedong, therefore I am disappoint.
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On September 13 2010 22:23 Wings wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2010 19:40 Womwomwom wrote:Perhaps the other 2 finals do show Flash's dominance over JD, but I hardly find mindgames to be the ideal measure of one's skills. If it was a series of macro-oriented games it would be far more telling. "Mindgames" is a part a player's skill, every single great player has won whole series matches through "mindgames" and without it they would just be like Leta, Light, or Sea (good but will never achieve anything because all they can do is smash armies together or build wraiths). Seriously... - July was far from his prime yet utterly broke Best because he cheesed the first set. - Oov was literally all "mindgames", his mechanics were nothing to write home about but he stil won because he was able to make players do what he wanted.
- Flash was able to beat Stork in less than an hour due to "mindgames" - Stork was able to proxy gate Fantasy on Chupung-Ryeong due to "mindgames". Stork even said in the Winners Interview being a perfect mechanical player is useless if you can't win the "mindgames" portion of the game. Winners are players who can play the "mindgame" and it is simply one of the most important parts of series matches. I don't see how you cannot deny this, all great players who win series matches constantly are the ones who can do this extremely well. What matters at the end of the day is whether or not you actually win, not how good you can macro or micro...if that was the case Oov probably wouldn't have won anything because he simply wasn't good at any of this stuff. Even if "mindgames" didn't matter and everyone went through the same build order every time, Flash would still probably be the undisputed king since he's the champion of mashing large scale armies together, that's why his late game is always so stupidly strong. uh... you seriously can't be talking about the Cheater Terran who basically redefined the world of macro? The man who went 5-0 in Starleague finals? His mechanics, I think we can all agree, were the best in the entire world at that time.
No there were players with better mechanics, NaDa and ChoJJa for example. Oovs macro was great and probably the best, but his micro was atrocious at times. Check out his final match against Yellow on U-Boat in his first MSL final to see a perfect example. Oov is certainly one of the best example of mindgames, for example his first match against July in the Shinhanbank 2005 finals where he used a low eco 3rax, which was very untypical for him and thus cought July completely offguard. July later explained that this game (along with his final against NaDa in IOPS were he also lost the first match in the series to an unconventional BO - a tankdrop that took out his expand (he went 3 hatch lurker)), was a reason for 4pooling BeSt in EVER2008 and thus getting ahead in the mindgame already from game1. I still think he wouldnt have needed to do that to win, but it was the perfect choice against a player like BeSt who had a hard time adapting to low-eco play. Other reasons it was good against him was because he had less big stage experience and troubles with nerves in individuals.
EDIT: Actually the tankdrop game in IOPS was the third game. My mistake. The first game was like in Oov vs July a sunkenbust(this was a 2rax bust) though so it doesnt really change my point.
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On September 13 2010 21:00 moopie wrote:They're getting along, why can't we? + Show Spoiler +
Ah, they look so cute together. Reminds me of Stork and Bisu. :3
Nice to see they're at least friends when they're not busy trying to 4pool/7rax each other.
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It was 5 Rax yo. 
And ya, it's great to see that them together outside of the SC world. 
Also, mindgames are indeed a huge part of Starcraft, it is an important skill and it's usually one of JD's biggest strenghts. It's what made him the scariest Bo5 player in the world until Flash became God. Notice how he for instance won 4 games in his semis vs Light and Stork using smart and hyper aggressive ling play (lets not get into a discussion about whether it's cheese or not ), and he has done similar things many times in the past. It's just that Flash has evolved into an even smarter player in that area, and combined with his ridiculous talent and raw skill it has made him virtually unstoppable, even for JD. I think it's going to be very difficult for JD to come back from this. He has stated himself that 2nd place means shit to him, winning is all that matters, and that he would practise as if his life depended on it for this OSL final. And still he got smashed.  For the third time in a row. The rivalry between the two isn't dead, but it's pretty much on respirator at the moment. I really hope that JD can win at least one Starleague next season.
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z0mfg flash..... i should have bet my life saving on you just like how rek bet his on the dong.
the last bonjwa indeed.
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![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/wj2IK.jpg)
Flash ballin out of control. That's the Korean Air representative, no?
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watching those games was painful, I was sooo wanting jaedong to take this one and even out their rivalry. Hopefully we can get another jaedong vs flash finals for whatever's going to be coming next, however painful they may be, they are still the 2 undisputed best players in the world.
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On September 14 2010 07:59 KristianJS wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Flash ballin out of control. That's the Korean Air representative, no?
Look out Flash; you're not a bonjwa at girls, and she's just trying to get some of that record-breaking 500,000,000 won you earned this season...
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On September 14 2010 08:54 Wings wrote:Look out Flash; you're not a bonjwa at girls, and she's just trying to get some of that record-breaking 500,000,000 won you earned this season...
Someone recognized him while he was shopping too lol
![[image loading]](http://www.fomos.kr/board/photo/1284373571_1.jpg)
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On September 14 2010 09:23 Noxide wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2010 08:54 Wings wrote:On September 14 2010 07:59 KristianJS wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Flash ballin out of control. That's the Korean Air representative, no? Look out Flash; you're not a bonjwa at girls, and she's just trying to get some of that record-breaking 500,000,000 won you earned this season... Someone recognized him while he was shopping too lol
Was this in Shanhai? Wow I didn't think that the Chinese were such big fans of BW.
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On September 14 2010 07:59 KristianJS wrote:
Flash ballin out of control. That's the Korean Air representative, no?
No. That's Lee Shin Ae.
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On September 14 2010 10:21 moopie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2010 07:59 KristianJS wrote:
Flash ballin out of control. That's the Korean Air representative, no? No. That's Lee Shin Ae.
im sure that clears it up for most of us.
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On September 14 2010 14:40 Kaolla wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2010 10:21 moopie wrote:On September 14 2010 07:59 KristianJS wrote:
Flash ballin out of control. That's the Korean Air representative, no? No. That's Lee Shin Ae. im sure that clears it up for most of us.
Shin Ae (이신애) is a host on OGN for a UMS show, which she used to host alongside Nal_rA (she was even shown several times during Nal_rA's oldboy). Not to be confused with 조신애 the actress.
+ Show Spoiler +
Better?
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On September 14 2010 15:17 moopie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2010 14:40 Kaolla wrote:On September 14 2010 10:21 moopie wrote:On September 14 2010 07:59 KristianJS wrote:
Flash ballin out of control. That's the Korean Air representative, no? No. That's Lee Shin Ae. im sure that clears it up for most of us. Shin Ae (이신애) is a host on OGN for a UMS show, which she used to host alongside Nal_rA (she was even shown several times during Nal_rA's oldboy). Not to be confused with 조신애 the actress. + Show Spoiler +Better?
better! thanks for the clarification ^_^;
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oh man great pics!
man what i would do if i ever met a progamer....
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Dlp6P.jpg)
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