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On September 12 2010 12:04 moopie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2010 11:57 infinity2k9 wrote:On September 12 2010 11:49 moopie wrote:On September 12 2010 11:04 infinity2k9 wrote:
Flash is 'bonjwa' cause he can choose the build he wants and ride it to victory, gg congrats... of course hes the best terran player ever but im just not happy with it. Zerg deserves a chance. Even a clever burrow move gets shut down with zero loss, wtf? Terran on 2base is literally unbreakable somehow, i know Flash is excellent at defence but cmon.. if done well you CANNOT break the defence at all. its actually impossible.
Even after building an impossible to break 4 bunkers at nat, you can simply move to main and defend with no problem.. the units are too cost effective. JD unburrowed those lings about a second before the mutas joined in, so by the time the mutas got there the lings were already mostly dead, he didn't time that attack properly. And zerg had a chance, remember swarm season? its protoss that haven't dominated much aside from the dragons in 08-09. Seriously, in all your recent posts all you seem to do is QQ about how JD is the greatest ever but terran is just too imba, nevermind the fact that Flash aside, JD was 70% vT this past year. So all the terrans suck ass against JD, but when Flash wins its "omfgwtfbbqhax terran imba!".. yeah sc2 forums are that-a-way. On September 12 2010 11:25 infinity2k9 wrote:
He went 4pool because of the maps.. and by the time his first drop came swarm was nowhere near out in the 4th game. It was impossible to pull off somehow even though Flash did a failed 5rax, i just hate it. The fact a player like Light can be good at TvZ but suck at everything else completely is a good indication of what this matchup is like at true high level. One way a mistake is gg the other its a setback. Unless Zerg completely guesses a total build order win then they are behind... So clearly the reason why Skyhigh is good at TvT but sucks at everything else is a good indication of what that matchup is like at true high level.. oh wait. And the 5-rax didn't really fail, because while he didn't kill of the nat, he took out almost all of JD's drones, so he ended up breaking even (at least), just like how the 4 pool didn't really fail, even though JD didn't win the game with it, but he did take out almost all the SCVs. Yeah guy, you're kind of running on empty here. TvZ in 'swarm season' was 50% overall still. And just the fact he unburrowed a second too early caused him the loss, while Flash ran a whole control group of rines into stacked lurkers, how is that fair? I believe Protoss has a tough time too indeed and ZvP is also a ridiculous matchup at high-levels.. and these days when played well even TvP is favoured one way. I'm not a zerg sympathizer and if anything JD should have lost vs Stork.. Like i said before, TvZ is 54% overall. At such a high level this imbalance is going to show itself more. There's a whole history of terrans such as Casy and FBH who prove it already, i know no one likes to admit it but its seriously favoured one way. (...) You say that TvZ is very imba, which I would agree that it does favor terrans somewhat (though maps have a lot to do with it). But again, JvT is hugely JD favored (70% vs any other non-flash terran), no other terran can put up a fight against him. Do people cry Z imba? no. JD and Flash are just on a whole different level, they find ways around the race/map favoring with their builds and executions. You can't have it both ways. And 1-hit wonder specialists (i.e snipers) exist for every matchup, not just TvZ. It has to do with a lot of things, like their playstyle, strategies, practice partners, etc.
Well, but he got a point there.
Hwasin Casy FBH Boxer
Leta Light
ForGG
in a way even Nada, oov, sea
the number of terrans excelling at tvz is so much greater than the number of terrans excelling at tvp (hiya; really; fantasy)
Probably the same for pvt and zvp. After so many years and so many maps you'll have to admit that the game is obviously not balanced and that the attempts to fix it via maps weren't very successful.
I do not want to take any credit from Flash here; he is just the best player at the moment. But I think JD (playing zerg) has a harder time than flash playing terran. Makes Efforts 3-2 look even more unreal
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On September 12 2010 21:13 karlkarlson wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2010 19:46 Elroi wrote:On September 11 2010 19:45 De4ngus wrote:
Soooo... Flash loses all his marines to 3 lurkers. One gets 11 kills. But thats totally fine. JD's defiler gets sniped because it consumes less than half a second late = gg. Great. Thats tvz for you  you are 3000% right. this game / map pool / whatever is imbalanced. terran is so f*cking annoying, and so f*cking easy.
Haha butthurt zerg fan right here. I'll start taking you seriously when you scream imba every time Jaedong beats another protoss.
TvZ imba? I'm sure Light had it easy as hell when he beat Jaedong with multitask, micro, and gamesense, and Jaedong was up to his neck in pure unadulterated skill when he made lings and won. Don't forget Flash lost his first golden mouse to the same shit even though he's using the "easy" race. In your screwed up view of broodwar the person who clicks faster and comes up with the cutest tricks should always win, otherwise it's imba. That's bullshit. Flash was smarter. That's why he won.
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On September 12 2010 23:42 Savant wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2010 21:13 karlkarlson wrote:On September 11 2010 19:46 Elroi wrote:On September 11 2010 19:45 De4ngus wrote:
Soooo... Flash loses all his marines to 3 lurkers. One gets 11 kills. But thats totally fine. JD's defiler gets sniped because it consumes less than half a second late = gg. Great. Thats tvz for you you are 3000% right. this game / map pool / whatever is imbalanced. terran is so f*cking annoying, and so f*cking easy. Haha butthurt zerg fan right here. I'll start taking you seriously when you scream imba every time Jaedong beats another protoss. TvZ imba? I'm sure Light had it easy as hell when he beat Jaedong with multitask, micro, and gamesense, and Jaedong was up to his neck in pure unadulterated skill when he made lings and won. Don't forget Flash lost his first golden mouse to the same shit even though he's using the "easy" race. In your screwed up view of broodwar the person who clicks faster and comes up with the cutest tricks should always win, otherwise it's imba. That's bullshit. Flash was smarter. That's why he won.
Yeah dude losing eleven marines =/= losing a defiler; losing a defiler is more like losing your first vessel...
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I mean you have to read an old TvZ guide to understand just how critical that first defiler was... 11 marines are nothing compared to it at that stage in the game (it's the equivalent of a single macro cycle or two).
The bigger mistake was that Jaedong didn't consume BEFORE he popped his defiler through the Nydus. Maybe he was afraid Flash would snipe the nydus canal by the time he did that? Maybe consume just finished at that moment? Maybe he forgot? But regardless, Flash saw the defiler and just target-fired and that's that. Against +2 marines with stim and range the DPS dictates the Z to swarm as soon as the defiler gets in range, but JD consumed first. That was GG.
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The truth is, Jaedong was struggling, even if he hadn't lost that defiler. Flash was controlling the map so well; and admittedly, that would only change if Jaedong survived long enough to abuse Hive tech.
Even then, I'd have put my money on Flash transitioning to mech, and to have the superior macro management to win.
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On September 13 2010 00:27 l0st_romantic wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2010 23:42 Savant wrote:On September 12 2010 21:13 karlkarlson wrote:On September 11 2010 19:46 Elroi wrote:On September 11 2010 19:45 De4ngus wrote:
Soooo... Flash loses all his marines to 3 lurkers. One gets 11 kills. But thats totally fine. JD's defiler gets sniped because it consumes less than half a second late = gg. Great. Thats tvz for you you are 3000% right. this game / map pool / whatever is imbalanced. terran is so f*cking annoying, and so f*cking easy. Haha butthurt zerg fan right here. I'll start taking you seriously when you scream imba every time Jaedong beats another protoss. TvZ imba? I'm sure Light had it easy as hell when he beat Jaedong with multitask, micro, and gamesense, and Jaedong was up to his neck in pure unadulterated skill when he made lings and won. Don't forget Flash lost his first golden mouse to the same shit even though he's using the "easy" race. In your screwed up view of broodwar the person who clicks faster and comes up with the cutest tricks should always win, otherwise it's imba. That's bullshit. Flash was smarter. That's why he won. Yeah dude losing eleven marines =/= losing a defiler; losing a defiler is more like losing your first vessel...
not to mention that the mistakes jaedong made were totally stupid.
send a defiler and 2 zergs through the nydus and then start consuming?
you do it the other way round, first load its mana and then send it into the battlefield.
that way it could have easily made a cloud over the nydus to protect it.
second big blunder was then unborrowing the lings into already stimmed marines.
he KNEW the marines where already stimmed cause they ran the ramps down very fast.
the flanking marines werent quite there and only 5-6 marines were shooting at the mutalisks.
why would you want to do that?
okay, the lurker thing was a blunder on flashs side, but its still 1 mistake more on jd's side...
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On September 12 2010 23:04 Scaramanga wrote:
Why don't the mods go banhammer on all these people derailing the thread with talks of imbalance and abuse of players? Kinda frustrating when Flash just demolished JD and is now widely recognised as a bonjwa and still majority of the posts are about how bullshit the maps/tvz/flash is.
Not enough banlings to put up with this many idiots and spammers (yeah I'm looking at you karlkarlson, and your 4 back to back imba whine posts).
+ Show Spoiler +On September 12 2010 21:13 karlkarlson wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2010 19:46 Elroi wrote:On September 11 2010 19:45 De4ngus wrote:
Soooo... Flash loses all his marines to 3 lurkers. One gets 11 kills. But thats totally fine. JD's defiler gets sniped because it consumes less than half a second late = gg. Great. Thats tvz for you you are 3000% right. this game / map pool / whatever is imbalanced. terran is so f*cking annoying, and so f*cking easy. On September 12 2010 21:23 karlkarlson wrote:because terran is an easier, imbalanced race in which 2 tanks and a vessel can MURDER a half dozen lurks and lings provided there are some buildings in the way. jesus i hate T On September 12 2010 21:27 karlkarlson wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2010 21:18 SimonB wrote:
You know, after hating Jaedong as a rival these last two or three years, I do feel really bad for him. After repeatedly losing to Flash in the last three finals, he's gone from confident and angry to upset to destroyed to accepting his defeat. It's almost like he's expecting to lose now. STOP DISRESPECTING JD HATEFUL ARROGANT PUSHTAK TERRAN
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On September 12 2010 16:02 OneOther wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2010 12:11 Lebesgue wrote:
People always complain. That's the one universal truth.
The burrow might have worked earlier when Flash didn't have that many marines and a fb. But Flash must have sensed sth and he never moved out as he often does. So by the time he moved out he had huge army with an extra fb which really helps. And as moopie explained, Jaedong didn't timed attack well.
But Jaedong was still in game at time though at a quite disadvantageous position. He needed to secure 3rd in time. He didn't... yep this is correct. flash has an edge on jaedong in game sense and that's the feeling i get in every series they play. the way flash waited til gathering a larger force and 1+ upgrade because he sensed something strange simply amazes me. i doubt no other terran reacted the way flash did when jaedong was practicing that burrow strategy. you have to be a different animal to win 80% in a span of 180+ games.
I don't think the +1 and larger force was necessarily because he sensed something was up. The ebay started before Flash saw anything out of the ordinary, and after he gets the ebay the natural way to follow up is to get that big army and move out when +1 finishes and deny a 3rd. Moving out earlier just risks you losing your army to extra lings (Flash had no idea of JD's ling count at the time) and neutering your +1 push and then you're behind because you got +1 early for no reason. Whether he predicted JD would try something a bit more aggressive I can't say, but Flash's play certainly countered what JD tried to do.
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On September 13 2010 07:19 crate wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2010 16:02 OneOther wrote:On September 12 2010 12:11 Lebesgue wrote:
People always complain. That's the one universal truth.
The burrow might have worked earlier when Flash didn't have that many marines and a fb. But Flash must have sensed sth and he never moved out as he often does. So by the time he moved out he had huge army with an extra fb which really helps. And as moopie explained, Jaedong didn't timed attack well.
But Jaedong was still in game at time though at a quite disadvantageous position. He needed to secure 3rd in time. He didn't... yep this is correct. flash has an edge on jaedong in game sense and that's the feeling i get in every series they play. the way flash waited til gathering a larger force and 1+ upgrade because he sensed something strange simply amazes me. i doubt no other terran reacted the way flash did when jaedong was practicing that burrow strategy. you have to be a different animal to win 80% in a span of 180+ games. I don't think the +1 and larger force was necessarily because he sensed something was up. The ebay started before Flash saw anything out of the ordinary, and after he gets the ebay the natural way to follow up is to get that big army and move out when +1 finishes and deny a 3rd. Moving out earlier just risks you losing your army to extra lings (Flash had no idea of JD's ling count at the time) and neutering your +1 push and then you're behind because you got +1 early for no reason. Whether he predicted JD would try something a bit more aggressive I can't say, but Flash's play certainly countered what JD tried to do.
Flash probably had a rough idea of JD's ling count and didn't move out earlier because of it. If you look at the VOD you'll see Flash poking around his own nat high ground because he suspected JD massing lings somewhere.
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Guys, the reason why Jaedong lost all these series against Flash is because he was scared. And I mean it. NOBODY have ever put fear into Jaedong's mind like Flash does. Sorry Tasteless but Jaedong got nervous in this 2 SLs. Flash just have the mentality advantage over Jaedong.
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To say that, u may mean that every single Z players is scared of Flash or Terran players, there is nothing like a mentality advantage in this situation, look at JD trying to pull out all the trick like burrowing and trapping, defiler, even when for the suprise factors, the jobs that Flash has done are pretty amazing in term of the result but if u list the action by its name (like u call the name of the move in a dance routine) its sure a much shorter than JD. And running less complicated task will generate less risk of making mistake. Zerg players simply have to do so more things than Terran, thats a critical problem in SC and continue in SC2, perhap human should always win aliens.
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Zerg players do not have to do more things than Terran players to execute a competitive build, just by the mechanical requirements of the races themselves. I say this as a long time zvp/zvt/tvz player (if a bad one ;p). There was nothing more complicated about any of Jaedong's strategies in the OSL than Flash's. As a matter of fact a +1 timing push is basically equivalent to a burrow trap with mutas in the amount of units to control, and, well, 4 pools aren't known for their complexity.
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On September 13 2010 09:40 Xiphos wrote:
Guys, the reason why Jaedong lost all these series against Flash is because he was scared. And I mean it. NOBODY have ever put fear into Jaedong's mind like Flash does. Sorry Tasteless but Jaedong got nervous in this 2 SLs. Flash just have the mentality advantage over Jaedong.
This. You could guarantee if JD was to vs a progamer without knowing who it was and it happened to be Flash he would have played better.
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wow flash just plays with such confidence the entire time. jaedong is so terrified to put pressure on him at all
also WTF happened with JDs first drop in game 4.. Flash had 4 bunkers in his nat.. yet he can just pick everything up and kill the whole drop wtihout losing a tank?? that shti was crazy
I love you flash but watching JD get punished this way just kinda makes me hurt. Its unfortunate you guys exist at the same time lol 
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You know, none of this bonjwa debate would be happening right now if Stork had just built that extra cannon.
But I'll reserve my judgment for whether or not he qualifies on his post-win performance. If BW dies or he continues to have a monster streak, I'd acknowledge him as one. But a match of 3 cheeses is hardly a clear cut showing of dominance.
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On September 13 2010 12:09 double1185 wrote:
To say that, u may mean that every single Z players is scared of Flash or Terran players, there is nothing like a mentality advantage in this situation, look at JD trying to pull out all the trick like burrowing and trapping, defiler, even when for the suprise factors, the jobs that Flash has done are pretty amazing in term of the result but if u list the action by its name (like u call the name of the move in a dance routine) its sure a much shorter than JD. And running less complicated task will generate less risk of making mistake. Zerg players simply have to do so more things than Terran, thats a critical problem in SC and continue in SC2, perhap human should always win aliens.
Starcraft is not about “moves” but strategy. The edge flash has on jaedong is that overall he has better strategies. Sorry jaedong fans you know is it true, it is like he can read jaedongs cards and knows exactly how to counter. He scouts and reacts perfectly, jaedongs drop in the last game is a great example, he sees a ton of lurks going towards his natural and then they don’t arrive he senses something sneaky and starts scouting. It is not that hard really if you play the game 8+ hours a day you can know exactly what you opponent is doing without having to see what he is doing. The only truly overpowered unit terran has is not tanks or marines it is the comsat station, one scan can completely nullify a drop with 12 overlords, one scan can tell you what tech route the opponent is going and allow you to counter. The reason no one appreciates this is because you only notice it if you are watching the first person vod. Multitasking wise Jaedong and Flash are equal... strategy wise Flash is better.
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On September 13 2010 00:27 l0st_romantic wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2010 23:42 Savant wrote:On September 12 2010 21:13 karlkarlson wrote:On September 11 2010 19:46 Elroi wrote:On September 11 2010 19:45 De4ngus wrote:
Soooo... Flash loses all his marines to 3 lurkers. One gets 11 kills. But thats totally fine. JD's defiler gets sniped because it consumes less than half a second late = gg. Great. Thats tvz for you you are 3000% right. this game / map pool / whatever is imbalanced. terran is so f*cking annoying, and so f*cking easy. Haha butthurt zerg fan right here. I'll start taking you seriously when you scream imba every time Jaedong beats another protoss. TvZ imba? I'm sure Light had it easy as hell when he beat Jaedong with multitask, micro, and gamesense, and Jaedong was up to his neck in pure unadulterated skill when he made lings and won. Don't forget Flash lost his first golden mouse to the same shit even though he's using the "easy" race. In your screwed up view of broodwar the person who clicks faster and comes up with the cutest tricks should always win, otherwise it's imba. That's bullshit. Flash was smarter. That's why he won. Yeah dude losing eleven marines =/= losing a defiler; losing a defiler is more like losing your first vessel...
+1 to this. losing a dozen marines is like losing 20 lings. oh wait, JD fans conveniently leave out the part where JD throws away nearly 2 full control groups of lings. thats arguably a bigger loss since it was much earlier in the game. (ie 1 worker loss in first 2-3 mins of game hurts much more than 2-3 worker loss 10+ mins in)
Terran lets first vessel get sniped, first push with tanks becomes extremely difficult
Zerg lets defiler get sniped, defending push becomes extremely difficult.
seems fair to me.
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5930 Posts
On September 13 2010 15:00 Lightwip wrote:
You know, none of this bonjwa debate would be happening right now if Stork had just built that extra cannon.
But I'll reserve my judgment for whether or not he qualifies on his post-win performance. If BW dies or he continues to have a monster streak, I'd acknowledge him as one. But a match of 3 cheeses is hardly a clear cut showing of dominance.
People would still be calling Flash bonwja or whatever considering Stork in the finals means that Jaedong just lost a Bo5, and yet another game 5, to a protoss player who isn't really known for his PvZ.
But a match of 3 cheeses is hardly a clear cut showing of dominance.
Yes it is, considering if you actually look at the big picture he just beat the 2nd best player, and the so-called King of Bo5s, 3x in a row and maintained some stupid crazy win rate in all three of his matchups throughout the year. Flash's achievements this year are unique in every way.
(This protoss worship gimmick has run dry Lightwip, it wasn't funny in the first place and its not funny now)
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On September 13 2010 17:58 Womwomwom wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2010 15:00 Lightwip wrote:
You know, none of this bonjwa debate would be happening right now if Stork had just built that extra cannon.
But I'll reserve my judgment for whether or not he qualifies on his post-win performance. If BW dies or he continues to have a monster streak, I'd acknowledge him as one. But a match of 3 cheeses is hardly a clear cut showing of dominance. People would still be calling Flash bonwja or whatever considering Stork in the finals means that Jaedong just lost a Bo5, and yet another game 5, to a protoss player who isn't really known for his PvZ. Yes it is, considering if you actually look at the big picture he just beat the 2nd best player, and the so-called King of Bo5s, 3x in a row and maintained some stupid crazy win rate in all three of his matchups throughout the year. Flash's achievements this year are unique in every way. (This protoss worship gimmick has run dry Lightwip, it wasn't funny in the first place and its not funny now)
Perhaps the other 2 finals do show Flash's dominance over JD, but I hardly find mindgames to be the ideal measure of one's skills. If it was a series of macro-oriented games it would be far more telling.
If Stork beat JD I wouldn't consider Flash up for debate as bonjwa, but rather JD playing like shit and losing where he shouldn't have.
Keep in mind the old best players were displaced by someone with better skill(with the exception of boxer and Nada/Yellow, and honestly Boxer is bonjwa for a different reason. oov/Nada, Savior/oov, and Bisu/Savior are all very 1 sided). 10-6 in the last few finals with a really close overall is not like this at all.
Not to berate Flash's achievements, but in my opinion there's still always someone who can stop him. He hasn't dominated everyone at any one time. Before it was Jaedong only, now it's Fantasy/Effort/Stork who I think could stop Flash. Of course, he is better than each of these players, but if they beat him in a series it would not be a surprise.
I think it's pretty similar to Bisu or Jaedong in that while they are the best, there's always someone in the way that can threaten them. He can still be beat by someone who plays better than him.
Maybe you disagree, but this is my opinion on the matter. Obviously I have a huge bias on the matter, but so does anyone else.
User was temp banned for this post.
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