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On August 30 2010 03:15 Lightwip wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2010 02:36 Trap wrote:
Hopefully we can get a new card next time. I'm not saying these guys played bad, they're amazing players, but watching Flash continually out-strategize the mechanical beast JD while occasionally dropping underwhelming games (game 4) is getting old. Can we get a Zerg who is willing to take some damn risks or try some new TvZ builds? I really wonder if JD considers using a 4-5 pool vs Flash to be beneath him, but considering Flash is known for going 14cc all the damn time, punish him for it. Don't get me wrong, it was a decent series, but as JD is getting older I'm really hoping another Z/P will pick up the slack. I think JD IS too proud to do some serious aggression. He pretty much 12 hatched every time when he really should have just 9 pooled. Effort had the right idea, honestly. Jaedong had the right idea in his final against Fantasy(take advantage of early weakness to negate their strength), but it seems like he lost that somewhere on the way to this final. It seems like getting BBSed and 14CCed didn't really teach Jaedong all that much. Show nested quote +On August 30 2010 02:26 AppleTart wrote:On August 30 2010 01:39 Lightwip wrote:On August 29 2010 17:18 vietboi wrote:On August 29 2010 14:52 Lightwip wrote:On August 29 2010 14:35 bluetrolls wrote:On August 29 2010 14:30 Lightwip wrote:On August 29 2010 14:26 yelps wrote:On August 29 2010 13:18 KissBlade wrote:
I really don't understand how can there be any Flash fans. What part of his play do people find so exciting? God, I tried not to watch the finals because I was afraid of jinxing things but I had a stupid sinking feeling the moment I checked this thread. BAH I SAY. This is your opinion. People wonder the same thing about jaedong too I've seen very few people wondering what people like about Jaedong. He's probably the most liked player out of all of them right now. So what is it that makes you like Jaedong? (If you like him). Honestly, the tendency of terrans to just sit with tanks and try to turtle their way through doesn't make me respect them much. I think an S class protoss/zerg is much harder to achieve. So you say that Flash acheivements are easier then example Jaedong and Bisu acheivements? I think its more Flash talent, skill and determination that has made him what he is, not the Terran race. I dont reckon many Terrans winning anything since NaDa or oov. So if turtling with tanks is so much easier then zerg/protoss. Why isnt there any other then flash who has won (as terran) the latest years? I think every race has their pros and cons. Terran has just come alot further then zerg/protoss in the evolution when it comes down to strategy. And they are really using it to their advantage. But dont say that Flash/Boxer/NaDa/Oov acheivements are worth less then for a S-class zerg/protoss. That is simply disrespecting their hard work and determination. The fact that Boxer, Oov, and Nada were bonjwas really does make Flash's achievements less credible. I consider what Savior/Jaedong did and what Bisu/Nal_rA did more important. The fact that so many terrans achieved that status makes me think that it really isn't so hard(relative to toss/zerg of course). On August 29 2010 18:46 KristianJS wrote:On August 29 2010 18:31 dybydx wrote:
funny how someone just said T is boring cause of turtling with tanks when Flash won his games without any tanks and was on the offense. This. I can't even recall seeing a single sieged tank the whole series. A couple of unsieged ones but that's it. Flash played all the games extremely aggressively. I'm not talking about this series of games, but just in general. Flash wasn't actually too bad this set, and I actually didn't hate his TvZ until he decided that you can be gay with tanks in TvZ too. No I don't think it's imba/unfair, but it doesn't make me like them. IMO Jaedong lost because he was stupid enough to let Flash 14CC 6/7 times. On August 29 2010 19:26 darktreb wrote:
Lightwip's ridiculous anti-Flash bias has blinded him completely from making any rational observations. It's one thing to dislike a player, which everyone has a right to do, but it's incredibly annoying when someone is just constantly whipping out stuff that's borderline completely irrelevant.
Plenty of people on TL who dislike Flash are reasonable. Morons like Lightwip are not one of them. I think this is appropriate here. darktreb has a point... Flash has WL, PL, MSL under his belt already. He has triple MSL finals 2 golds with that and has a possibility of triple OSL finals one gold one silver thus far. Triple back to back double star leagues has never happened, let alone double... also his win percentage and elo is the highest in history of BW.... Korean commentators have also declared Flash as beyond-bonjwa. I really think what you are saying is just your own bias. What I stated was the facts. I read what you read and I can't really look up what you said because it's just how you feel. Flash is everywhere, no matter which league you look no matter which interview you read, Flash is there because he is the best all around player bar none. Oh... and I looked back at your old posts and that's really all you do... trash talk Flash. I really wish Flash joined TL and just made a post about how much of a failure you are. It's one thing to be a rabid fan of a player, it's another to be a rabid hater who QQ's all the time. Flash may or may not be the best player, that's an opinion. I certainly don't like him though because I have an innate hate for tanks and turtling. Whether or not he is the best player, being terran is in my opinion easier, as seen by the fact that there's 3. One reason for the abundance of them is probably because terran is easier to make comebacks with. A protoss/zerg comeback is far less likely than a terran one. When Effort made a comeback in that one game against forGG, GGPlay against Iris, Jangbi against Ruby(when he had a few carriers snipe Ruby's last comsat and then he destroyed Ruby's larger army with DT's) and Bisu against Pure/Clam, those were pretty unexpected and required some really impressive play. When Flash won against Jaedong in the WCG or Movie in the OSL(game 1), it really just looked like some tanks(admittedly, BC's too in the game against JD, which IMO should have been killed by ensnare+devourer+ DIVINE WINDDD) and mines getting more kills than they really should get, which simply isn't as impressive/difficult as epic defiler control, epic harass, or somehow opening a magical hole with which to rape someone with DT's. Dont get me wrong, Flash is a good player and I see why people would like him. But to me he's boring and I think that to an extent he's riding on the fraudulence of terran.
You don't watch many Flash games do you? You hate Flash because he uses tanks and turtles? Flash made like 5 tanks in the entire MSL finals and won with 3 well timed aggressive pushes. Sounds really turtle/tanky. Despite the fact that from October on, Flash's TvZ pretty much hinges on the most insane 2 base aggression there is. Despite the fact that Flash's TvP revolution in the start of the year was based on the same idea, a big aggressive FD push or Tornado terran styled vulture harass. But yeah, you're right he's such a turtle. I don't pretend that Flash doesn't turtle on occasion, he has the best defense in the game. All in all he plays aggressively much more often than he turtles.
You make your point clear at the end when you point out the "fradulence of terran". You think terran is OP or "easier". If terran were easier than the other races then it stands to reason that they would dominate everything forever, right? Since the fall of Savior the game has been incredibly balanced. Name for me the last terran not Flash to win a SL, Forgg. Before that? Hmmm.. Mind in 2007. This easy race you speak of sure doesn't win many recent tournaments. I think that's more than enough to prove that terran is no more difficult and no easier than the others.
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On August 30 2010 05:10 SuperArc wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2010 05:09 Lebesgue wrote:On August 30 2010 04:34 Lightwip wrote:On August 30 2010 03:55 Lebesgue wrote:On August 30 2010 03:15 Lightwip wrote:On August 30 2010 02:36 Trap wrote:
Hopefully we can get a new card next time. I'm not saying these guys played bad, they're amazing players, but watching Flash continually out-strategize the mechanical beast JD while occasionally dropping underwhelming games (game 4) is getting old. Can we get a Zerg who is willing to take some damn risks or try some new TvZ builds? I really wonder if JD considers using a 4-5 pool vs Flash to be beneath him, but considering Flash is known for going 14cc all the damn time, punish him for it. Don't get me wrong, it was a decent series, but as JD is getting older I'm really hoping another Z/P will pick up the slack. I think JD IS too proud to do some serious aggression. He pretty much 12 hatched every time when he really should have just 9 pooled. Effort had the right idea, honestly. Jaedong had the right idea in his final against Fantasy(take advantage of early weakness to negate their strength), but it seems like he lost that somewhere on the way to this final. It seems like getting BBSed and 14CCed didn't really teach Jaedong all that much. On August 30 2010 02:26 AppleTart wrote:On August 30 2010 01:39 Lightwip wrote:On August 29 2010 17:18 vietboi wrote:On August 29 2010 14:52 Lightwip wrote:On August 29 2010 14:35 bluetrolls wrote:
[quote]
So what is it that makes you like Jaedong? (If you like him). Honestly, the tendency of terrans to just sit with tanks and try to turtle their way through doesn't make me respect them much. I think an S class protoss/zerg is much harder to achieve. So you say that Flash acheivements are easier then example Jaedong and Bisu acheivements? I think its more Flash talent, skill and determination that has made him what he is, not the Terran race. I dont reckon many Terrans winning anything since NaDa or oov. So if turtling with tanks is so much easier then zerg/protoss. Why isnt there any other then flash who has won (as terran) the latest years? I think every race has their pros and cons. Terran has just come alot further then zerg/protoss in the evolution when it comes down to strategy. And they are really using it to their advantage. But dont say that Flash/Boxer/NaDa/Oov acheivements are worth less then for a S-class zerg/protoss. That is simply disrespecting their hard work and determination. The fact that Boxer, Oov, and Nada were bonjwas really does make Flash's achievements less credible. I consider what Savior/Jaedong did and what Bisu/Nal_rA did more important. The fact that so many terrans achieved that status makes me think that it really isn't so hard(relative to toss/zerg of course). On August 29 2010 18:46 KristianJS wrote:On August 29 2010 18:31 dybydx wrote:
funny how someone just said T is boring cause of turtling with tanks when Flash won his games without any tanks and was on the offense. This. I can't even recall seeing a single sieged tank the whole series. A couple of unsieged ones but that's it. Flash played all the games extremely aggressively. I'm not talking about this series of games, but just in general. Flash wasn't actually too bad this set, and I actually didn't hate his TvZ until he decided that you can be gay with tanks in TvZ too. No I don't think it's imba/unfair, but it doesn't make me like them. IMO Jaedong lost because he was stupid enough to let Flash 14CC 6/7 times. On August 29 2010 19:26 darktreb wrote:
Lightwip's ridiculous anti-Flash bias has blinded him completely from making any rational observations. It's one thing to dislike a player, which everyone has a right to do, but it's incredibly annoying when someone is just constantly whipping out stuff that's borderline completely irrelevant.
Plenty of people on TL who dislike Flash are reasonable. Morons like Lightwip are not one of them. I think this is appropriate here. darktreb has a point... Flash has WL, PL, MSL under his belt already. He has triple MSL finals 2 golds with that and has a possibility of triple OSL finals one gold one silver thus far. Triple back to back double star leagues has never happened, let alone double... also his win percentage and elo is the highest in history of BW.... Korean commentators have also declared Flash as beyond-bonjwa. I really think what you are saying is just your own bias. What I stated was the facts. I read what you read and I can't really look up what you said because it's just how you feel. Flash is everywhere, no matter which league you look no matter which interview you read, Flash is there because he is the best all around player bar none. Oh... and I looked back at your old posts and that's really all you do... trash talk Flash. I really wish Flash joined TL and just made a post about how much of a failure you are. It's one thing to be a rabid fan of a player, it's another to be a rabid hater who QQ's all the time. Flash may or may not be the best player, that's an opinion. I certainly don't like him though because I have an innate hate for tanks and turtling. Whether or not he is the best player, being terran is in my opinion easier, as seen by the fact that there's 3. One reason for the abundance of them is probably because terran is easier to make comebacks with. A protoss/zerg comeback is far less likely than a terran one. When Effort made a comeback in that one game against forGG, GGPlay against Iris, Jangbi against Ruby(when he had a few carriers snipe Ruby's last comsat and then he destroyed Ruby's larger army with DT's) and Bisu against Pure/Clam, those were pretty unexpected and required some really impressive play. When Flash won against Jaedong in the WCG or Movie in the OSL(game 1), it really just looked like some tanks(admittedly, BC's too in the game against JD, which IMO should have been killed by ensnare+devourer+ DIVINE WINDDD) and mines getting more kills than they really should get, which simply isn't as impressive/difficult as epic defiler control, epic harass, or somehow opening a magical hole with which to rape someone with DT's. Dont get me wrong, Flash is a good player and I see why people would like him. But to me he's boring and I think that to an extent he's riding on the fraudulence of terran. Just stop posting please. You simply hate Terran race and because Flash is using its potential to the fullest you're Flash hater. If you think mines and siege tank are too powerful let's make Zerg not play with defilers and ultras and Protoss stop using Templars and zealots. Flash is playing Terran as it is meant to be. What do you expect? He should just not siege tanks and let himself be overrun by Protoss or ultras. Terran is defensive race. It's army is super vulnerable if it is not position well. But you don't care about do you? I won't even touch upon stuff you wrote about comebacks. That's just beyond ridiculous. You can hate Terran race and I don't give a crap but please don't let your hate blind you from recognizing sheer skill when you see it I think this is appropriate here too.I don't hate the terran race. Admittedly I like it less than protoss and zerg, but I still think it's alright. And I don't hate good terran players, I pretty much like all of them(except Sea, who isn't good enough for me to like him for his play but good enough to beat people I like more. Not that I hate him, just that I probably won't cheer for him). Flash does have skill, and a lot of it, there's no doubt about that. But by what you're describing, terran is a race where you win if you just defend and don't make mistakes(which an S class really doesn't make most of the time). Protoss and zerg require more than just not leaving holes in defense and splitting the map. Please calm down. Yes, I hate Flash and think terran requires less skill at a higher level. Maybe you don't agree, but that's really no reason to start throwing insults. I am calm. I'm just tired of hearing all the same crap. Terran needs no skill. It is simply siege into gg... And anyone who plays Terran knows it is just pure BS. Terran requires as much skills as any other race. Just look how balanced SC stats are over long timeline. If Terran race was easier to play at the high level then I would expect Terrans to be dominating SC all the time. Yet we don't see it. Unless you imply that T users, and T progamers are worse on average than P anz Z players. Moreover, Terran of all races requires great sense of timings. You think you can just sit in our base and out up defences are win? Well, then I have to say you have no idea about Terran race. Do you watch TvP. As a Terran you have to hit perfect timings with your pushes. Push to early you are overrun, push too late you're overrun. Again, do you think that when Flash does 3:3 push this is insta win. Just watch many games where his push is crushed. And note that no other Terran can do it as well as him. In bio TvZ you need to be super aggresive as soon as you fend off mutas. How do you expect to stop muta harass without Turrets. Unupgraded MnM just melts to good harass. Finally, metal TvZ was just a response to how difficult is late game for Terran One good swarm and it can be gg... Not to mention that upgraded ultras are super powerful against MnM and they just tear through them. Bottom line, no race is easier than the other at the highest level. The feature of great players is that they make they race over-powered. That's why they are so amazing. Terrans are dominating SC... They won more trophies than any other race.
And that was all before 2007...
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On August 30 2010 05:38 revy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2010 03:15 Lightwip wrote:On August 30 2010 02:36 Trap wrote:
Hopefully we can get a new card next time. I'm not saying these guys played bad, they're amazing players, but watching Flash continually out-strategize the mechanical beast JD while occasionally dropping underwhelming games (game 4) is getting old. Can we get a Zerg who is willing to take some damn risks or try some new TvZ builds? I really wonder if JD considers using a 4-5 pool vs Flash to be beneath him, but considering Flash is known for going 14cc all the damn time, punish him for it. Don't get me wrong, it was a decent series, but as JD is getting older I'm really hoping another Z/P will pick up the slack. I think JD IS too proud to do some serious aggression. He pretty much 12 hatched every time when he really should have just 9 pooled. Effort had the right idea, honestly. Jaedong had the right idea in his final against Fantasy(take advantage of early weakness to negate their strength), but it seems like he lost that somewhere on the way to this final. It seems like getting BBSed and 14CCed didn't really teach Jaedong all that much. On August 30 2010 02:26 AppleTart wrote:On August 30 2010 01:39 Lightwip wrote:On August 29 2010 17:18 vietboi wrote:On August 29 2010 14:52 Lightwip wrote:On August 29 2010 14:35 bluetrolls wrote:On August 29 2010 14:30 Lightwip wrote:On August 29 2010 14:26 yelps wrote:On August 29 2010 13:18 KissBlade wrote:
I really don't understand how can there be any Flash fans. What part of his play do people find so exciting? God, I tried not to watch the finals because I was afraid of jinxing things but I had a stupid sinking feeling the moment I checked this thread. BAH I SAY. This is your opinion. People wonder the same thing about jaedong too I've seen very few people wondering what people like about Jaedong. He's probably the most liked player out of all of them right now. So what is it that makes you like Jaedong? (If you like him). Honestly, the tendency of terrans to just sit with tanks and try to turtle their way through doesn't make me respect them much. I think an S class protoss/zerg is much harder to achieve. So you say that Flash acheivements are easier then example Jaedong and Bisu acheivements? I think its more Flash talent, skill and determination that has made him what he is, not the Terran race. I dont reckon many Terrans winning anything since NaDa or oov. So if turtling with tanks is so much easier then zerg/protoss. Why isnt there any other then flash who has won (as terran) the latest years? I think every race has their pros and cons. Terran has just come alot further then zerg/protoss in the evolution when it comes down to strategy. And they are really using it to their advantage. But dont say that Flash/Boxer/NaDa/Oov acheivements are worth less then for a S-class zerg/protoss. That is simply disrespecting their hard work and determination. The fact that Boxer, Oov, and Nada were bonjwas really does make Flash's achievements less credible. I consider what Savior/Jaedong did and what Bisu/Nal_rA did more important. The fact that so many terrans achieved that status makes me think that it really isn't so hard(relative to toss/zerg of course). On August 29 2010 18:46 KristianJS wrote:On August 29 2010 18:31 dybydx wrote:
funny how someone just said T is boring cause of turtling with tanks when Flash won his games without any tanks and was on the offense. This. I can't even recall seeing a single sieged tank the whole series. A couple of unsieged ones but that's it. Flash played all the games extremely aggressively. I'm not talking about this series of games, but just in general. Flash wasn't actually too bad this set, and I actually didn't hate his TvZ until he decided that you can be gay with tanks in TvZ too. No I don't think it's imba/unfair, but it doesn't make me like them. IMO Jaedong lost because he was stupid enough to let Flash 14CC 6/7 times. On August 29 2010 19:26 darktreb wrote:
Lightwip's ridiculous anti-Flash bias has blinded him completely from making any rational observations. It's one thing to dislike a player, which everyone has a right to do, but it's incredibly annoying when someone is just constantly whipping out stuff that's borderline completely irrelevant.
Plenty of people on TL who dislike Flash are reasonable. Morons like Lightwip are not one of them. I think this is appropriate here. darktreb has a point... Flash has WL, PL, MSL under his belt already. He has triple MSL finals 2 golds with that and has a possibility of triple OSL finals one gold one silver thus far. Triple back to back double star leagues has never happened, let alone double... also his win percentage and elo is the highest in history of BW.... Korean commentators have also declared Flash as beyond-bonjwa. I really think what you are saying is just your own bias. What I stated was the facts. I read what you read and I can't really look up what you said because it's just how you feel. Flash is everywhere, no matter which league you look no matter which interview you read, Flash is there because he is the best all around player bar none. Oh... and I looked back at your old posts and that's really all you do... trash talk Flash. I really wish Flash joined TL and just made a post about how much of a failure you are. It's one thing to be a rabid fan of a player, it's another to be a rabid hater who QQ's all the time. Flash may or may not be the best player, that's an opinion. I certainly don't like him though because I have an innate hate for tanks and turtling. Whether or not he is the best player, being terran is in my opinion easier, as seen by the fact that there's 3. One reason for the abundance of them is probably because terran is easier to make comebacks with. A protoss/zerg comeback is far less likely than a terran one. When Effort made a comeback in that one game against forGG, GGPlay against Iris, Jangbi against Ruby(when he had a few carriers snipe Ruby's last comsat and then he destroyed Ruby's larger army with DT's) and Bisu against Pure/Clam, those were pretty unexpected and required some really impressive play. When Flash won against Jaedong in the WCG or Movie in the OSL(game 1), it really just looked like some tanks(admittedly, BC's too in the game against JD, which IMO should have been killed by ensnare+devourer+ DIVINE WINDDD) and mines getting more kills than they really should get, which simply isn't as impressive/difficult as epic defiler control, epic harass, or somehow opening a magical hole with which to rape someone with DT's. Dont get me wrong, Flash is a good player and I see why people would like him. But to me he's boring and I think that to an extent he's riding on the fraudulence of terran. You don't watch many Flash games do you? You hate Flash because he uses tanks and turtles? Flash made like 5 tanks in the entire MSL finals and won with 3 well timed aggressive pushes. Sounds really turtle/tanky. Despite the fact that from October on, Flash's TvZ pretty much hinges on the most insane 2 base aggression there is. Despite the fact that Flash's TvP revolution in the start of the year was based on the same idea, a big aggressive FD push or Tornado terran styled vulture harass. But yeah, you're right he's such a turtle. I don't pretend that Flash doesn't turtle on occasion, he has the best defense in the game. All in all he plays aggressively much more often than he turtles. You make your point clear at the end when you point out the "fradulence of terran". You think terran is OP or "easier". If terran were easier than the other races then it stands to reason that they would dominate everything forever, right? Since the fall of Savior the game has been incredibly balanced. Name for me the last terran not Flash to win a SL, Forgg. Before that? Hmmm.. Mind in 2007. This easy race you speak of sure doesn't win many recent tournaments. I think that's more than enough to prove that terran is no more difficult and no easier than the others.
You do bring up a good point. I suppose it's just that the terrans rose first, and they stayed there until they were brought down by Savior.
Now protoss need to start winning more titles. That has really never happened except during Bisu's few months of being the uncontested best.
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On August 30 2010 05:54 Lightwip wrote:
You do bring up a good point.
Wow. I'm shocked!
User was temp banned for this post.
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IMO Jaedong should start going, vs Flash, 12 pool.
-If FlaSh goes 14CC presuming Jaedong scouts it in time his lings will be there in time to gain an advantage.
-If FlaSh does bunker rush, or goes BBS or even 8 rax -- 12 pool in a soft counter to all of these.
-If FlaSh goes the safe 1 rax into CC -- Jaedong can do Zero's 2 hatch muta.
Thoughts?
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On August 30 2010 05:54 Lightwip wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2010 05:38 revy wrote:On August 30 2010 03:15 Lightwip wrote:On August 30 2010 02:36 Trap wrote:
Hopefully we can get a new card next time. I'm not saying these guys played bad, they're amazing players, but watching Flash continually out-strategize the mechanical beast JD while occasionally dropping underwhelming games (game 4) is getting old. Can we get a Zerg who is willing to take some damn risks or try some new TvZ builds? I really wonder if JD considers using a 4-5 pool vs Flash to be beneath him, but considering Flash is known for going 14cc all the damn time, punish him for it. Don't get me wrong, it was a decent series, but as JD is getting older I'm really hoping another Z/P will pick up the slack. I think JD IS too proud to do some serious aggression. He pretty much 12 hatched every time when he really should have just 9 pooled. Effort had the right idea, honestly. Jaedong had the right idea in his final against Fantasy(take advantage of early weakness to negate their strength), but it seems like he lost that somewhere on the way to this final. It seems like getting BBSed and 14CCed didn't really teach Jaedong all that much. On August 30 2010 02:26 AppleTart wrote:On August 30 2010 01:39 Lightwip wrote:On August 29 2010 17:18 vietboi wrote:On August 29 2010 14:52 Lightwip wrote:On August 29 2010 14:35 bluetrolls wrote:On August 29 2010 14:30 Lightwip wrote:On August 29 2010 14:26 yelps wrote:
[quote]
This is your opinion. People wonder the same thing about jaedong too I've seen very few people wondering what people like about Jaedong. He's probably the most liked player out of all of them right now. So what is it that makes you like Jaedong? (If you like him). Honestly, the tendency of terrans to just sit with tanks and try to turtle their way through doesn't make me respect them much. I think an S class protoss/zerg is much harder to achieve. So you say that Flash acheivements are easier then example Jaedong and Bisu acheivements? I think its more Flash talent, skill and determination that has made him what he is, not the Terran race. I dont reckon many Terrans winning anything since NaDa or oov. So if turtling with tanks is so much easier then zerg/protoss. Why isnt there any other then flash who has won (as terran) the latest years? I think every race has their pros and cons. Terran has just come alot further then zerg/protoss in the evolution when it comes down to strategy. And they are really using it to their advantage. But dont say that Flash/Boxer/NaDa/Oov acheivements are worth less then for a S-class zerg/protoss. That is simply disrespecting their hard work and determination. The fact that Boxer, Oov, and Nada were bonjwas really does make Flash's achievements less credible. I consider what Savior/Jaedong did and what Bisu/Nal_rA did more important. The fact that so many terrans achieved that status makes me think that it really isn't so hard(relative to toss/zerg of course). On August 29 2010 18:46 KristianJS wrote:On August 29 2010 18:31 dybydx wrote:
funny how someone just said T is boring cause of turtling with tanks when Flash won his games without any tanks and was on the offense. This. I can't even recall seeing a single sieged tank the whole series. A couple of unsieged ones but that's it. Flash played all the games extremely aggressively. I'm not talking about this series of games, but just in general. Flash wasn't actually too bad this set, and I actually didn't hate his TvZ until he decided that you can be gay with tanks in TvZ too. No I don't think it's imba/unfair, but it doesn't make me like them. IMO Jaedong lost because he was stupid enough to let Flash 14CC 6/7 times. On August 29 2010 19:26 darktreb wrote:
Lightwip's ridiculous anti-Flash bias has blinded him completely from making any rational observations. It's one thing to dislike a player, which everyone has a right to do, but it's incredibly annoying when someone is just constantly whipping out stuff that's borderline completely irrelevant.
Plenty of people on TL who dislike Flash are reasonable. Morons like Lightwip are not one of them. I think this is appropriate here. darktreb has a point... Flash has WL, PL, MSL under his belt already. He has triple MSL finals 2 golds with that and has a possibility of triple OSL finals one gold one silver thus far. Triple back to back double star leagues has never happened, let alone double... also his win percentage and elo is the highest in history of BW.... Korean commentators have also declared Flash as beyond-bonjwa. I really think what you are saying is just your own bias. What I stated was the facts. I read what you read and I can't really look up what you said because it's just how you feel. Flash is everywhere, no matter which league you look no matter which interview you read, Flash is there because he is the best all around player bar none. Oh... and I looked back at your old posts and that's really all you do... trash talk Flash. I really wish Flash joined TL and just made a post about how much of a failure you are. It's one thing to be a rabid fan of a player, it's another to be a rabid hater who QQ's all the time. Flash may or may not be the best player, that's an opinion. I certainly don't like him though because I have an innate hate for tanks and turtling. Whether or not he is the best player, being terran is in my opinion easier, as seen by the fact that there's 3. One reason for the abundance of them is probably because terran is easier to make comebacks with. A protoss/zerg comeback is far less likely than a terran one. When Effort made a comeback in that one game against forGG, GGPlay against Iris, Jangbi against Ruby(when he had a few carriers snipe Ruby's last comsat and then he destroyed Ruby's larger army with DT's) and Bisu against Pure/Clam, those were pretty unexpected and required some really impressive play. When Flash won against Jaedong in the WCG or Movie in the OSL(game 1), it really just looked like some tanks(admittedly, BC's too in the game against JD, which IMO should have been killed by ensnare+devourer+ DIVINE WINDDD) and mines getting more kills than they really should get, which simply isn't as impressive/difficult as epic defiler control, epic harass, or somehow opening a magical hole with which to rape someone with DT's. Dont get me wrong, Flash is a good player and I see why people would like him. But to me he's boring and I think that to an extent he's riding on the fraudulence of terran. You don't watch many Flash games do you? You hate Flash because he uses tanks and turtles? Flash made like 5 tanks in the entire MSL finals and won with 3 well timed aggressive pushes. Sounds really turtle/tanky. Despite the fact that from October on, Flash's TvZ pretty much hinges on the most insane 2 base aggression there is. Despite the fact that Flash's TvP revolution in the start of the year was based on the same idea, a big aggressive FD push or Tornado terran styled vulture harass. But yeah, you're right he's such a turtle. I don't pretend that Flash doesn't turtle on occasion, he has the best defense in the game. All in all he plays aggressively much more often than he turtles. You make your point clear at the end when you point out the "fradulence of terran". You think terran is OP or "easier". If terran were easier than the other races then it stands to reason that they would dominate everything forever, right? Since the fall of Savior the game has been incredibly balanced. Name for me the last terran not Flash to win a SL, Forgg. Before that? Hmmm.. Mind in 2007. This easy race you speak of sure doesn't win many recent tournaments. I think that's more than enough to prove that terran is no more difficult and no easier than the others. You do bring up a good point. I suppose it's just that the terrans rose first, and they stayed there until they were brought down by Savior. Now protoss need to start winning more titles. That has really never happened except during Bisu's few months of being the uncontested best.
Then its agreed! I was against you saying that terran is easier and need less skill and effort to succeed. But it looks like you have turn the tides!
Im no specific terran fan, neither Flash fan really. If you were saying zerg/protoss was easier then other races i probably be disagreeing as well. But when you say that flash got where he got easier then jaedong or any s-class zerg/protoss it kinda isnt fair for any pro terran player. Especially for flash who probably is working the hardest to be the best. Actually its only he who is a dominating terran player today (maybe fantasy too, but he always chokes in starleagues), so if terran really are easy they would be raping all games and starleagues, i only see flash dominating lately.
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On August 30 2010 03:45 Trap wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2010 03:18 bluetrolls wrote:On August 30 2010 02:36 Trap wrote:
Can we get a Zerg who is willing to take some damn risks or try some new TvZ builds?
Kwanro, Avalon MSL Effort, Korean Air OSL Both of those players have serious deficiencies in standard ZvT decision making. Effort at his peak is good, but until a month or two before the OSL had an abysmal ZvT streak, and Kwanro is Kwanro. What I really want is for the strategic zergs, like Zero/Calm/Action. to solve their individual quirky problems (nerves/clam/early game respectively) and think of some new ZvT variations. JD had it really unlucky that he played so many ZvT games by the time he hit the finals. Show nested quote +On August 30 2010 03:31 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
i'm really hoping we'll see Stork vs Flash in the finals. I wouldn't put it past Stork to prepare something really brilliant to take Flash out. He might not be as good as Jaedong, but Stork is a genius of preparation and it more than makes up for his worse mechanics
im kind of tired of leessangrok Completely agreed. JD showed phenomenal control in game 3, but otherwise seemed strategically stagnant for this finals, whereas Stork ideally could use a wide variety of PvT builds to set the pace against Flash.
Stork has shown through his career that he is good at figuring out Flash. Even though he was decimated in the OSL, it was because Flash's thought process went a step further. Stork prepared perfectly to annihilate the Flash who was playing TvP at that time and then Flash guessed he would do exactly that and did exactly the opposite of what he normally did. Flash never understimates his opponents and by predicting Stork's smart preparation he was able to catch him off guard.
However their game in EVER OSL showed again that Stork knew exactly how to beat the way Flash was playing at that time with perfectly crafted builds. Then Flash beat him twice in proleague by, again, playing a very different style than Stork had analyzed before
The same thing may happen but I think a match between the two would have much more interesting mindgames
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On August 30 2010 05:10 SuperArc wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2010 05:09 Lebesgue wrote:On August 30 2010 04:34 Lightwip wrote:On August 30 2010 03:55 Lebesgue wrote:On August 30 2010 03:15 Lightwip wrote:On August 30 2010 02:36 Trap wrote:
Hopefully we can get a new card next time. I'm not saying these guys played bad, they're amazing players, but watching Flash continually out-strategize the mechanical beast JD while occasionally dropping underwhelming games (game 4) is getting old. Can we get a Zerg who is willing to take some damn risks or try some new TvZ builds? I really wonder if JD considers using a 4-5 pool vs Flash to be beneath him, but considering Flash is known for going 14cc all the damn time, punish him for it. Don't get me wrong, it was a decent series, but as JD is getting older I'm really hoping another Z/P will pick up the slack. I think JD IS too proud to do some serious aggression. He pretty much 12 hatched every time when he really should have just 9 pooled. Effort had the right idea, honestly. Jaedong had the right idea in his final against Fantasy(take advantage of early weakness to negate their strength), but it seems like he lost that somewhere on the way to this final. It seems like getting BBSed and 14CCed didn't really teach Jaedong all that much. On August 30 2010 02:26 AppleTart wrote:On August 30 2010 01:39 Lightwip wrote:On August 29 2010 17:18 vietboi wrote:On August 29 2010 14:52 Lightwip wrote:On August 29 2010 14:35 bluetrolls wrote:
[quote]
So what is it that makes you like Jaedong? (If you like him). Honestly, the tendency of terrans to just sit with tanks and try to turtle their way through doesn't make me respect them much. I think an S class protoss/zerg is much harder to achieve. So you say that Flash acheivements are easier then example Jaedong and Bisu acheivements? I think its more Flash talent, skill and determination that has made him what he is, not the Terran race. I dont reckon many Terrans winning anything since NaDa or oov. So if turtling with tanks is so much easier then zerg/protoss. Why isnt there any other then flash who has won (as terran) the latest years? I think every race has their pros and cons. Terran has just come alot further then zerg/protoss in the evolution when it comes down to strategy. And they are really using it to their advantage. But dont say that Flash/Boxer/NaDa/Oov acheivements are worth less then for a S-class zerg/protoss. That is simply disrespecting their hard work and determination. The fact that Boxer, Oov, and Nada were bonjwas really does make Flash's achievements less credible. I consider what Savior/Jaedong did and what Bisu/Nal_rA did more important. The fact that so many terrans achieved that status makes me think that it really isn't so hard(relative to toss/zerg of course). On August 29 2010 18:46 KristianJS wrote:On August 29 2010 18:31 dybydx wrote:
funny how someone just said T is boring cause of turtling with tanks when Flash won his games without any tanks and was on the offense. This. I can't even recall seeing a single sieged tank the whole series. A couple of unsieged ones but that's it. Flash played all the games extremely aggressively. I'm not talking about this series of games, but just in general. Flash wasn't actually too bad this set, and I actually didn't hate his TvZ until he decided that you can be gay with tanks in TvZ too. No I don't think it's imba/unfair, but it doesn't make me like them. IMO Jaedong lost because he was stupid enough to let Flash 14CC 6/7 times. On August 29 2010 19:26 darktreb wrote:
Lightwip's ridiculous anti-Flash bias has blinded him completely from making any rational observations. It's one thing to dislike a player, which everyone has a right to do, but it's incredibly annoying when someone is just constantly whipping out stuff that's borderline completely irrelevant.
Plenty of people on TL who dislike Flash are reasonable. Morons like Lightwip are not one of them. I think this is appropriate here. darktreb has a point... Flash has WL, PL, MSL under his belt already. He has triple MSL finals 2 golds with that and has a possibility of triple OSL finals one gold one silver thus far. Triple back to back double star leagues has never happened, let alone double... also his win percentage and elo is the highest in history of BW.... Korean commentators have also declared Flash as beyond-bonjwa. I really think what you are saying is just your own bias. What I stated was the facts. I read what you read and I can't really look up what you said because it's just how you feel. Flash is everywhere, no matter which league you look no matter which interview you read, Flash is there because he is the best all around player bar none. Oh... and I looked back at your old posts and that's really all you do... trash talk Flash. I really wish Flash joined TL and just made a post about how much of a failure you are. It's one thing to be a rabid fan of a player, it's another to be a rabid hater who QQ's all the time. Flash may or may not be the best player, that's an opinion. I certainly don't like him though because I have an innate hate for tanks and turtling. Whether or not he is the best player, being terran is in my opinion easier, as seen by the fact that there's 3. One reason for the abundance of them is probably because terran is easier to make comebacks with. A protoss/zerg comeback is far less likely than a terran one. When Effort made a comeback in that one game against forGG, GGPlay against Iris, Jangbi against Ruby(when he had a few carriers snipe Ruby's last comsat and then he destroyed Ruby's larger army with DT's) and Bisu against Pure/Clam, those were pretty unexpected and required some really impressive play. When Flash won against Jaedong in the WCG or Movie in the OSL(game 1), it really just looked like some tanks(admittedly, BC's too in the game against JD, which IMO should have been killed by ensnare+devourer+ DIVINE WINDDD) and mines getting more kills than they really should get, which simply isn't as impressive/difficult as epic defiler control, epic harass, or somehow opening a magical hole with which to rape someone with DT's. Dont get me wrong, Flash is a good player and I see why people would like him. But to me he's boring and I think that to an extent he's riding on the fraudulence of terran. Just stop posting please. You simply hate Terran race and because Flash is using its potential to the fullest you're Flash hater. If you think mines and siege tank are too powerful let's make Zerg not play with defilers and ultras and Protoss stop using Templars and zealots. Flash is playing Terran as it is meant to be. What do you expect? He should just not siege tanks and let himself be overrun by Protoss or ultras. Terran is defensive race. It's army is super vulnerable if it is not position well. But you don't care about do you? I won't even touch upon stuff you wrote about comebacks. That's just beyond ridiculous. You can hate Terran race and I don't give a crap but please don't let your hate blind you from recognizing sheer skill when you see it I think this is appropriate here too.I don't hate the terran race. Admittedly I like it less than protoss and zerg, but I still think it's alright. And I don't hate good terran players, I pretty much like all of them(except Sea, who isn't good enough for me to like him for his play but good enough to beat people I like more. Not that I hate him, just that I probably won't cheer for him). Flash does have skill, and a lot of it, there's no doubt about that. But by what you're describing, terran is a race where you win if you just defend and don't make mistakes(which an S class really doesn't make most of the time). Protoss and zerg require more than just not leaving holes in defense and splitting the map. Please calm down. Yes, I hate Flash and think terran requires less skill at a higher level. Maybe you don't agree, but that's really no reason to start throwing insults. I am calm. I'm just tired of hearing all the same crap. Terran needs no skill. It is simply siege into gg... And anyone who plays Terran knows it is just pure BS. Terran requires as much skills as any other race. Just look how balanced SC stats are over long timeline. If Terran race was easier to play at the high level then I would expect Terrans to be dominating SC all the time. Yet we don't see it. Unless you imply that T users, and T progamers are worse on average than P anz Z players. Moreover, Terran of all races requires great sense of timings. You think you can just sit in our base and out up defences are win? Well, then I have to say you have no idea about Terran race. Do you watch TvP. As a Terran you have to hit perfect timings with your pushes. Push to early you are overrun, push too late you're overrun. Again, do you think that when Flash does 3:3 push this is insta win. Just watch many games where his push is crushed. And note that no other Terran can do it as well as him. In bio TvZ you need to be super aggresive as soon as you fend off mutas. How do you expect to stop muta harass without Turrets. Unupgraded MnM just melts to good harass. Finally, metal TvZ was just a response to how difficult is late game for Terran One good swarm and it can be gg... Not to mention that upgraded ultras are super powerful against MnM and they just tear through them. Bottom line, no race is easier than the other at the highest level. The feature of great players is that they make they race over-powered. That's why they are so amazing. Terrans are dominating SC... They won more trophies than any other race.
This statement by itself doesn't prove anything other than that there have been greater players that played Terran than the other two races in the history of the game.
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On August 30 2010 06:03 Xtal wrote:
IMO Jaedong should start going, vs Flash, 12 pool.
-If FlaSh goes 14CC presuming Jaedong scouts it in time his lings will be there in time to gain an advantage.
-If FlaSh does bunker rush, or goes BBS or even 8 rax -- 12 pool in a soft counter to all of these.
-If FlaSh goes the safe 1 rax into CC -- Jaedong can do Zero's 2 hatch muta.
Thoughts?
it works on some maps but not others. it's great on matchpoint because the bases are close enough and it's kind of hard to defend from good muta harass. it's not as good on PR because the bases are too far apart and easier to defend from mutas.
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On August 30 2010 05:38 revy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2010 03:15 Lightwip wrote:On August 30 2010 02:36 Trap wrote:
Hopefully we can get a new card next time. I'm not saying these guys played bad, they're amazing players, but watching Flash continually out-strategize the mechanical beast JD while occasionally dropping underwhelming games (game 4) is getting old. Can we get a Zerg who is willing to take some damn risks or try some new TvZ builds? I really wonder if JD considers using a 4-5 pool vs Flash to be beneath him, but considering Flash is known for going 14cc all the damn time, punish him for it. Don't get me wrong, it was a decent series, but as JD is getting older I'm really hoping another Z/P will pick up the slack. I think JD IS too proud to do some serious aggression. He pretty much 12 hatched every time when he really should have just 9 pooled. Effort had the right idea, honestly. Jaedong had the right idea in his final against Fantasy(take advantage of early weakness to negate their strength), but it seems like he lost that somewhere on the way to this final. It seems like getting BBSed and 14CCed didn't really teach Jaedong all that much. On August 30 2010 02:26 AppleTart wrote:On August 30 2010 01:39 Lightwip wrote:On August 29 2010 17:18 vietboi wrote:On August 29 2010 14:52 Lightwip wrote:On August 29 2010 14:35 bluetrolls wrote:On August 29 2010 14:30 Lightwip wrote:On August 29 2010 14:26 yelps wrote:On August 29 2010 13:18 KissBlade wrote:
I really don't understand how can there be any Flash fans. What part of his play do people find so exciting? God, I tried not to watch the finals because I was afraid of jinxing things but I had a stupid sinking feeling the moment I checked this thread. BAH I SAY. This is your opinion. People wonder the same thing about jaedong too I've seen very few people wondering what people like about Jaedong. He's probably the most liked player out of all of them right now. So what is it that makes you like Jaedong? (If you like him). Honestly, the tendency of terrans to just sit with tanks and try to turtle their way through doesn't make me respect them much. I think an S class protoss/zerg is much harder to achieve. So you say that Flash acheivements are easier then example Jaedong and Bisu acheivements? I think its more Flash talent, skill and determination that has made him what he is, not the Terran race. I dont reckon many Terrans winning anything since NaDa or oov. So if turtling with tanks is so much easier then zerg/protoss. Why isnt there any other then flash who has won (as terran) the latest years? I think every race has their pros and cons. Terran has just come alot further then zerg/protoss in the evolution when it comes down to strategy. And they are really using it to their advantage. But dont say that Flash/Boxer/NaDa/Oov acheivements are worth less then for a S-class zerg/protoss. That is simply disrespecting their hard work and determination. The fact that Boxer, Oov, and Nada were bonjwas really does make Flash's achievements less credible. I consider what Savior/Jaedong did and what Bisu/Nal_rA did more important. The fact that so many terrans achieved that status makes me think that it really isn't so hard(relative to toss/zerg of course). On August 29 2010 18:46 KristianJS wrote:On August 29 2010 18:31 dybydx wrote:
funny how someone just said T is boring cause of turtling with tanks when Flash won his games without any tanks and was on the offense. This. I can't even recall seeing a single sieged tank the whole series. A couple of unsieged ones but that's it. Flash played all the games extremely aggressively. I'm not talking about this series of games, but just in general. Flash wasn't actually too bad this set, and I actually didn't hate his TvZ until he decided that you can be gay with tanks in TvZ too. No I don't think it's imba/unfair, but it doesn't make me like them. IMO Jaedong lost because he was stupid enough to let Flash 14CC 6/7 times. On August 29 2010 19:26 darktreb wrote:
Lightwip's ridiculous anti-Flash bias has blinded him completely from making any rational observations. It's one thing to dislike a player, which everyone has a right to do, but it's incredibly annoying when someone is just constantly whipping out stuff that's borderline completely irrelevant.
Plenty of people on TL who dislike Flash are reasonable. Morons like Lightwip are not one of them. I think this is appropriate here. darktreb has a point... Flash has WL, PL, MSL under his belt already. He has triple MSL finals 2 golds with that and has a possibility of triple OSL finals one gold one silver thus far. Triple back to back double star leagues has never happened, let alone double... also his win percentage and elo is the highest in history of BW.... Korean commentators have also declared Flash as beyond-bonjwa. I really think what you are saying is just your own bias. What I stated was the facts. I read what you read and I can't really look up what you said because it's just how you feel. Flash is everywhere, no matter which league you look no matter which interview you read, Flash is there because he is the best all around player bar none. Oh... and I looked back at your old posts and that's really all you do... trash talk Flash. I really wish Flash joined TL and just made a post about how much of a failure you are. It's one thing to be a rabid fan of a player, it's another to be a rabid hater who QQ's all the time. Flash may or may not be the best player, that's an opinion. I certainly don't like him though because I have an innate hate for tanks and turtling. Whether or not he is the best player, being terran is in my opinion easier, as seen by the fact that there's 3. One reason for the abundance of them is probably because terran is easier to make comebacks with. A protoss/zerg comeback is far less likely than a terran one. When Effort made a comeback in that one game against forGG, GGPlay against Iris, Jangbi against Ruby(when he had a few carriers snipe Ruby's last comsat and then he destroyed Ruby's larger army with DT's) and Bisu against Pure/Clam, those were pretty unexpected and required some really impressive play. When Flash won against Jaedong in the WCG or Movie in the OSL(game 1), it really just looked like some tanks(admittedly, BC's too in the game against JD, which IMO should have been killed by ensnare+devourer+ DIVINE WINDDD) and mines getting more kills than they really should get, which simply isn't as impressive/difficult as epic defiler control, epic harass, or somehow opening a magical hole with which to rape someone with DT's. Dont get me wrong, Flash is a good player and I see why people would like him. But to me he's boring and I think that to an extent he's riding on the fraudulence of terran. You don't watch many Flash games do you? You hate Flash because he uses tanks and turtles? Flash made like 5 tanks in the entire MSL finals and won with 3 well timed aggressive pushes. Sounds really turtle/tanky. Despite the fact that from October on, Flash's TvZ pretty much hinges on the most insane 2 base aggression there is. Despite the fact that Flash's TvP revolution in the start of the year was based on the same idea, a big aggressive FD push or Tornado terran styled vulture harass. But yeah, you're right he's such a turtle. I don't pretend that Flash doesn't turtle on occasion, he has the best defense in the game. All in all he plays aggressively much more often than he turtles. You make your point clear at the end when you point out the "fradulence of terran". You think terran is OP or "easier". If terran were easier than the other races then it stands to reason that they would dominate everything forever, right? Since the fall of Savior the game has been incredibly balanced. Name for me the last terran not Flash to win a SL, Forgg. Before that? Hmmm.. Mind in 2007. This easy race you speak of sure doesn't win many recent tournaments. I think that's more than enough to prove that terran is no more difficult and no easier than the others.
totally agree. Although i hate turtle, if flash is good at doing it, why shouldn't he??? thats like saying im REALLY good at soccer, but im not gonna make a profession of it.
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On August 30 2010 07:34 Housemd wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2010 05:38 revy wrote:On August 30 2010 03:15 Lightwip wrote:On August 30 2010 02:36 Trap wrote:
Hopefully we can get a new card next time. I'm not saying these guys played bad, they're amazing players, but watching Flash continually out-strategize the mechanical beast JD while occasionally dropping underwhelming games (game 4) is getting old. Can we get a Zerg who is willing to take some damn risks or try some new TvZ builds? I really wonder if JD considers using a 4-5 pool vs Flash to be beneath him, but considering Flash is known for going 14cc all the damn time, punish him for it. Don't get me wrong, it was a decent series, but as JD is getting older I'm really hoping another Z/P will pick up the slack. I think JD IS too proud to do some serious aggression. He pretty much 12 hatched every time when he really should have just 9 pooled. Effort had the right idea, honestly. Jaedong had the right idea in his final against Fantasy(take advantage of early weakness to negate their strength), but it seems like he lost that somewhere on the way to this final. It seems like getting BBSed and 14CCed didn't really teach Jaedong all that much. On August 30 2010 02:26 AppleTart wrote:On August 30 2010 01:39 Lightwip wrote:On August 29 2010 17:18 vietboi wrote:On August 29 2010 14:52 Lightwip wrote:On August 29 2010 14:35 bluetrolls wrote:On August 29 2010 14:30 Lightwip wrote:On August 29 2010 14:26 yelps wrote:
[quote]
This is your opinion. People wonder the same thing about jaedong too I've seen very few people wondering what people like about Jaedong. He's probably the most liked player out of all of them right now. So what is it that makes you like Jaedong? (If you like him). Honestly, the tendency of terrans to just sit with tanks and try to turtle their way through doesn't make me respect them much. I think an S class protoss/zerg is much harder to achieve. So you say that Flash acheivements are easier then example Jaedong and Bisu acheivements? I think its more Flash talent, skill and determination that has made him what he is, not the Terran race. I dont reckon many Terrans winning anything since NaDa or oov. So if turtling with tanks is so much easier then zerg/protoss. Why isnt there any other then flash who has won (as terran) the latest years? I think every race has their pros and cons. Terran has just come alot further then zerg/protoss in the evolution when it comes down to strategy. And they are really using it to their advantage. But dont say that Flash/Boxer/NaDa/Oov acheivements are worth less then for a S-class zerg/protoss. That is simply disrespecting their hard work and determination. The fact that Boxer, Oov, and Nada were bonjwas really does make Flash's achievements less credible. I consider what Savior/Jaedong did and what Bisu/Nal_rA did more important. The fact that so many terrans achieved that status makes me think that it really isn't so hard(relative to toss/zerg of course). On August 29 2010 18:46 KristianJS wrote:On August 29 2010 18:31 dybydx wrote:
funny how someone just said T is boring cause of turtling with tanks when Flash won his games without any tanks and was on the offense. This. I can't even recall seeing a single sieged tank the whole series. A couple of unsieged ones but that's it. Flash played all the games extremely aggressively. I'm not talking about this series of games, but just in general. Flash wasn't actually too bad this set, and I actually didn't hate his TvZ until he decided that you can be gay with tanks in TvZ too. No I don't think it's imba/unfair, but it doesn't make me like them. IMO Jaedong lost because he was stupid enough to let Flash 14CC 6/7 times. On August 29 2010 19:26 darktreb wrote:
Lightwip's ridiculous anti-Flash bias has blinded him completely from making any rational observations. It's one thing to dislike a player, which everyone has a right to do, but it's incredibly annoying when someone is just constantly whipping out stuff that's borderline completely irrelevant.
Plenty of people on TL who dislike Flash are reasonable. Morons like Lightwip are not one of them. I think this is appropriate here. darktreb has a point... Flash has WL, PL, MSL under his belt already. He has triple MSL finals 2 golds with that and has a possibility of triple OSL finals one gold one silver thus far. Triple back to back double star leagues has never happened, let alone double... also his win percentage and elo is the highest in history of BW.... Korean commentators have also declared Flash as beyond-bonjwa. I really think what you are saying is just your own bias. What I stated was the facts. I read what you read and I can't really look up what you said because it's just how you feel. Flash is everywhere, no matter which league you look no matter which interview you read, Flash is there because he is the best all around player bar none. Oh... and I looked back at your old posts and that's really all you do... trash talk Flash. I really wish Flash joined TL and just made a post about how much of a failure you are. It's one thing to be a rabid fan of a player, it's another to be a rabid hater who QQ's all the time. Flash may or may not be the best player, that's an opinion. I certainly don't like him though because I have an innate hate for tanks and turtling. Whether or not he is the best player, being terran is in my opinion easier, as seen by the fact that there's 3. One reason for the abundance of them is probably because terran is easier to make comebacks with. A protoss/zerg comeback is far less likely than a terran one. When Effort made a comeback in that one game against forGG, GGPlay against Iris, Jangbi against Ruby(when he had a few carriers snipe Ruby's last comsat and then he destroyed Ruby's larger army with DT's) and Bisu against Pure/Clam, those were pretty unexpected and required some really impressive play. When Flash won against Jaedong in the WCG or Movie in the OSL(game 1), it really just looked like some tanks(admittedly, BC's too in the game against JD, which IMO should have been killed by ensnare+devourer+ DIVINE WINDDD) and mines getting more kills than they really should get, which simply isn't as impressive/difficult as epic defiler control, epic harass, or somehow opening a magical hole with which to rape someone with DT's. Dont get me wrong, Flash is a good player and I see why people would like him. But to me he's boring and I think that to an extent he's riding on the fraudulence of terran. You don't watch many Flash games do you? You hate Flash because he uses tanks and turtles? Flash made like 5 tanks in the entire MSL finals and won with 3 well timed aggressive pushes. Sounds really turtle/tanky. Despite the fact that from October on, Flash's TvZ pretty much hinges on the most insane 2 base aggression there is. Despite the fact that Flash's TvP revolution in the start of the year was based on the same idea, a big aggressive FD push or Tornado terran styled vulture harass. But yeah, you're right he's such a turtle. I don't pretend that Flash doesn't turtle on occasion, he has the best defense in the game. All in all he plays aggressively much more often than he turtles. You make your point clear at the end when you point out the "fradulence of terran". You think terran is OP or "easier". If terran were easier than the other races then it stands to reason that they would dominate everything forever, right? Since the fall of Savior the game has been incredibly balanced. Name for me the last terran not Flash to win a SL, Forgg. Before that? Hmmm.. Mind in 2007. This easy race you speak of sure doesn't win many recent tournaments. I think that's more than enough to prove that terran is no more difficult and no easier than the others. totally agree. Although i hate turtle, if flash is good at doing it, why shouldn't he??? thats like saying im REALLY good at soccer, but im not gonna make a profession of it.
Not that they shouldn't do it, but it sure is painful to watch.
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lightwip, i really think you should stop posting altogether.
User was banned for this post.
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On August 30 2010 09:17 Lightwip wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2010 07:34 Housemd wrote:On August 30 2010 05:38 revy wrote:On August 30 2010 03:15 Lightwip wrote:On August 30 2010 02:36 Trap wrote:
Hopefully we can get a new card next time. I'm not saying these guys played bad, they're amazing players, but watching Flash continually out-strategize the mechanical beast JD while occasionally dropping underwhelming games (game 4) is getting old. Can we get a Zerg who is willing to take some damn risks or try some new TvZ builds? I really wonder if JD considers using a 4-5 pool vs Flash to be beneath him, but considering Flash is known for going 14cc all the damn time, punish him for it. Don't get me wrong, it was a decent series, but as JD is getting older I'm really hoping another Z/P will pick up the slack. I think JD IS too proud to do some serious aggression. He pretty much 12 hatched every time when he really should have just 9 pooled. Effort had the right idea, honestly. Jaedong had the right idea in his final against Fantasy(take advantage of early weakness to negate their strength), but it seems like he lost that somewhere on the way to this final. It seems like getting BBSed and 14CCed didn't really teach Jaedong all that much. On August 30 2010 02:26 AppleTart wrote:On August 30 2010 01:39 Lightwip wrote:On August 29 2010 17:18 vietboi wrote:On August 29 2010 14:52 Lightwip wrote:On August 29 2010 14:35 bluetrolls wrote:On August 29 2010 14:30 Lightwip wrote:
[quote]
I've seen very few people wondering what people like about Jaedong. He's probably the most liked player out of all of them right now. So what is it that makes you like Jaedong? (If you like him). Honestly, the tendency of terrans to just sit with tanks and try to turtle their way through doesn't make me respect them much. I think an S class protoss/zerg is much harder to achieve. So you say that Flash acheivements are easier then example Jaedong and Bisu acheivements? I think its more Flash talent, skill and determination that has made him what he is, not the Terran race. I dont reckon many Terrans winning anything since NaDa or oov. So if turtling with tanks is so much easier then zerg/protoss. Why isnt there any other then flash who has won (as terran) the latest years? I think every race has their pros and cons. Terran has just come alot further then zerg/protoss in the evolution when it comes down to strategy. And they are really using it to their advantage. But dont say that Flash/Boxer/NaDa/Oov acheivements are worth less then for a S-class zerg/protoss. That is simply disrespecting their hard work and determination. The fact that Boxer, Oov, and Nada were bonjwas really does make Flash's achievements less credible. I consider what Savior/Jaedong did and what Bisu/Nal_rA did more important. The fact that so many terrans achieved that status makes me think that it really isn't so hard(relative to toss/zerg of course). On August 29 2010 18:46 KristianJS wrote:On August 29 2010 18:31 dybydx wrote:
funny how someone just said T is boring cause of turtling with tanks when Flash won his games without any tanks and was on the offense. This. I can't even recall seeing a single sieged tank the whole series. A couple of unsieged ones but that's it. Flash played all the games extremely aggressively. I'm not talking about this series of games, but just in general. Flash wasn't actually too bad this set, and I actually didn't hate his TvZ until he decided that you can be gay with tanks in TvZ too. No I don't think it's imba/unfair, but it doesn't make me like them. IMO Jaedong lost because he was stupid enough to let Flash 14CC 6/7 times. On August 29 2010 19:26 darktreb wrote:
Lightwip's ridiculous anti-Flash bias has blinded him completely from making any rational observations. It's one thing to dislike a player, which everyone has a right to do, but it's incredibly annoying when someone is just constantly whipping out stuff that's borderline completely irrelevant.
Plenty of people on TL who dislike Flash are reasonable. Morons like Lightwip are not one of them. I think this is appropriate here. darktreb has a point... Flash has WL, PL, MSL under his belt already. He has triple MSL finals 2 golds with that and has a possibility of triple OSL finals one gold one silver thus far. Triple back to back double star leagues has never happened, let alone double... also his win percentage and elo is the highest in history of BW.... Korean commentators have also declared Flash as beyond-bonjwa. I really think what you are saying is just your own bias. What I stated was the facts. I read what you read and I can't really look up what you said because it's just how you feel. Flash is everywhere, no matter which league you look no matter which interview you read, Flash is there because he is the best all around player bar none. Oh... and I looked back at your old posts and that's really all you do... trash talk Flash. I really wish Flash joined TL and just made a post about how much of a failure you are. It's one thing to be a rabid fan of a player, it's another to be a rabid hater who QQ's all the time. Flash may or may not be the best player, that's an opinion. I certainly don't like him though because I have an innate hate for tanks and turtling. Whether or not he is the best player, being terran is in my opinion easier, as seen by the fact that there's 3. One reason for the abundance of them is probably because terran is easier to make comebacks with. A protoss/zerg comeback is far less likely than a terran one. When Effort made a comeback in that one game against forGG, GGPlay against Iris, Jangbi against Ruby(when he had a few carriers snipe Ruby's last comsat and then he destroyed Ruby's larger army with DT's) and Bisu against Pure/Clam, those were pretty unexpected and required some really impressive play. When Flash won against Jaedong in the WCG or Movie in the OSL(game 1), it really just looked like some tanks(admittedly, BC's too in the game against JD, which IMO should have been killed by ensnare+devourer+ DIVINE WINDDD) and mines getting more kills than they really should get, which simply isn't as impressive/difficult as epic defiler control, epic harass, or somehow opening a magical hole with which to rape someone with DT's. Dont get me wrong, Flash is a good player and I see why people would like him. But to me he's boring and I think that to an extent he's riding on the fraudulence of terran. You don't watch many Flash games do you? You hate Flash because he uses tanks and turtles? Flash made like 5 tanks in the entire MSL finals and won with 3 well timed aggressive pushes. Sounds really turtle/tanky. Despite the fact that from October on, Flash's TvZ pretty much hinges on the most insane 2 base aggression there is. Despite the fact that Flash's TvP revolution in the start of the year was based on the same idea, a big aggressive FD push or Tornado terran styled vulture harass. But yeah, you're right he's such a turtle. I don't pretend that Flash doesn't turtle on occasion, he has the best defense in the game. All in all he plays aggressively much more often than he turtles. You make your point clear at the end when you point out the "fradulence of terran". You think terran is OP or "easier". If terran were easier than the other races then it stands to reason that they would dominate everything forever, right? Since the fall of Savior the game has been incredibly balanced. Name for me the last terran not Flash to win a SL, Forgg. Before that? Hmmm.. Mind in 2007. This easy race you speak of sure doesn't win many recent tournaments. I think that's more than enough to prove that terran is no more difficult and no easier than the others. totally agree. Although i hate turtle, if flash is good at doing it, why shouldn't he??? thats like saying im REALLY good at soccer, but im not gonna make a profession of it. Not that they shouldn't do it, but it sure is painful to watch.
i guess if you don't really understand what flash is doing, why its important, or what his thought process is then yes defensive play is very boring
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People keep saying all the time "Flash always turtles" which only means they don't really watch his games. When did he turtled during this final? He does it sometimes, but why the hell wouldn't he use diverse strategies in order to make his opponents less sure what style will he play.
And Flash can play any style he wants. He can be super aggressive, and can play defensively. Can do the cute micro and go for the macro game.
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Flash has generally been playing with an aggressive style for almost a year now. If you're going to bitch about the tank heavy late game TvZ that he has developed, then you might as well bitch about how Zergs essentially turtle every late game to get their fourth gas.
I can only assume that everyone that complains about Flash being "boring" or being a "turtle" and only complains about those things haven't really been watching any of Flash's games. The most recent ones that have risen from this MSL final being the worst, as Flash's TvZ runs from aggressive to hyper aggressive nowadays.
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Jesus why is this becoming such a shit storm? Did the results really shock anyone? I think Jaedong did a lot better then I expected when I saw the map pool. And Flash didn't play any über turtle strats. It was a good series, nothing to complain about - except maybe Jaedongs micro in g5 which maybe cost him the series. I still think Jaedong will win the osl, he will atleast have a good chance with Deamliner in the map pool.
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I just realized that the reason I probably don't like Flash is because he keeps beating players I like.
Also, Flash fanboys screaming BONJWA/FLASH IS SO GOOD annoys me.
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On August 30 2010 10:56 Lightwip wrote:
I just realized that the reason I probably don't like Flash is because he keeps beating players I like.
Also, Flash fanboys screaming BONJWA/FLASH IS SO GOOD annoys me.
I think the second sentence is probably related to the first, but props for having the insight to recognize that
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as i'm sure people have pretty much covered before, flash turtles only when he has to (like game 1 of the WCG Korea finals). He does whatever he needs to win. With his superior strategy and sense, he can usually go on the aggressive. When that doesn't work out, he starts turtling because he's at a disadvantage. Sure you can complain about it being boring or unfair (T tends to have a stronger defense as their strength) but all in all, Flash is doing what he feels he needs to do to win. You don't see him just sitting back and starving out his enemies most of the games. That's only when he can't really move out and establish a stronger economy. So all those people complaining about Flash turtling are really just saying that he should win by aggression or give up (which in my mind is pretty dumb... why wouldn't you do everything you could to win?)
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To think....when Flash first came out people were calling him cheesy for being early aggressive lol
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EPT
