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Devastated that jaedong lost those first two games so easily, but I was super amped going into the final match. I thought JD would have had a distinct advantage in game 5 if he didn't take the mineral only so quickly. Top notch play from Flash though except for game 4
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On August 30 2010 21:12 purpose wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2010 21:01 Yggdrasil Leaf wrote:On August 30 2010 20:49 purpose wrote:
Congrats to Flash for the win, though to bad that map pool cant be more balanced.
As for boring defensiv play etc, I think its all a matter of taste. I think that defensive play is a perfectly valid way of playing. And that goes for most competative sports etc. Nobody liked Greece when they won the Euro championship in fotball by basically being super defensive and scoring like 1 goal every game at a corner. But they did it brilliantly.
I persoanlly think its just to boring to watch, so I prefer offensive play, and so does most people. Its nothing personal, its just a question of what you like.
Rematch in OSL, though I hope a protoss will be there to spoil it :-) What defensive play? Jaedong's? I was just commenting on the discussion about Flash being a boring camper. It was not a statement about the final. I mean if you havent been hiding under a rock the last couple of months its kinda obvious that Flash often played so boring that even a few flash fanboys fell asleep.
Wtf?
Always the same BS... Flash is probably the most aggressive player over the last ~12 months apart from the likes of Kwanro, especially in TvZ.
Once and for all guys, if you don't watch a player's games, don't comment on his style. It's that simple.
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for the 1st 2 games though, its more of Flash's creative play than JD making mistakes. those were not conventional TvZ's and JD fell for it.
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Still love you Jaedong, you are still my #1! Grats Flash, well played and well earned victory (although quite dissapointing and boring matches overall).
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On August 30 2010 21:12 purpose wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2010 21:01 Yggdrasil Leaf wrote:On August 30 2010 20:49 purpose wrote:
Congrats to Flash for the win, though to bad that map pool cant be more balanced.
As for boring defensiv play etc, I think its all a matter of taste. I think that defensive play is a perfectly valid way of playing. And that goes for most competative sports etc. Nobody liked Greece when they won the Euro championship in fotball by basically being super defensive and scoring like 1 goal every game at a corner. But they did it brilliantly.
I persoanlly think its just to boring to watch, so I prefer offensive play, and so does most people. Its nothing personal, its just a question of what you like.
Rematch in OSL, though I hope a protoss will be there to spoil it :-) What defensive play? Jaedong's? I was just commenting on the discussion about Flash being a boring camper. It was not a statement about the final. I mean if you havent been hiding under a rock the last couple of months its kinda obvious that Flash often played so boring that even a few flash fanboys fell asleep.
Have you been hiding under the rock? Cause Flash has been playing super-aggressively most of the time for the last year...
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Flash is so baller he has 31 girlfriends, chews bricks, and rapes kids for a living.
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Sigh, upset Jaedong lost, but I watched the vods even though I knew the results.
And I have to say, they were good even when spoiled! Hahaha. It was so intense. And the game on Fighting Spirit? Man, that was amazing. ^_^ Reminded me of Iris vs GGplay. Why couldn't MSL have used that map twice? It gives so many entertaining games.
Also, complaining about map imba is justified (because Odd Eye and PR are imbalanced), but they shouldn't take ANYTHING away from Flash's win. He played so well this series.  I almost thought he'd lose game 5 because JD almost held... but then he just rolled him over. Crazy.
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On August 30 2010 09:17 Lightwip wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2010 07:34 Housemd wrote:On August 30 2010 05:38 revy wrote:On August 30 2010 03:15 Lightwip wrote:On August 30 2010 02:36 Trap wrote:
Hopefully we can get a new card next time. I'm not saying these guys played bad, they're amazing players, but watching Flash continually out-strategize the mechanical beast JD while occasionally dropping underwhelming games (game 4) is getting old. Can we get a Zerg who is willing to take some damn risks or try some new TvZ builds? I really wonder if JD considers using a 4-5 pool vs Flash to be beneath him, but considering Flash is known for going 14cc all the damn time, punish him for it. Don't get me wrong, it was a decent series, but as JD is getting older I'm really hoping another Z/P will pick up the slack. I think JD IS too proud to do some serious aggression. He pretty much 12 hatched every time when he really should have just 9 pooled. Effort had the right idea, honestly. Jaedong had the right idea in his final against Fantasy(take advantage of early weakness to negate their strength), but it seems like he lost that somewhere on the way to this final. It seems like getting BBSed and 14CCed didn't really teach Jaedong all that much. On August 30 2010 02:26 AppleTart wrote:On August 30 2010 01:39 Lightwip wrote:On August 29 2010 17:18 vietboi wrote:On August 29 2010 14:52 Lightwip wrote:On August 29 2010 14:35 bluetrolls wrote:On August 29 2010 14:30 Lightwip wrote:
[quote]
I've seen very few people wondering what people like about Jaedong. He's probably the most liked player out of all of them right now. So what is it that makes you like Jaedong? (If you like him). Honestly, the tendency of terrans to just sit with tanks and try to turtle their way through doesn't make me respect them much. I think an S class protoss/zerg is much harder to achieve. So you say that Flash acheivements are easier then example Jaedong and Bisu acheivements? I think its more Flash talent, skill and determination that has made him what he is, not the Terran race. I dont reckon many Terrans winning anything since NaDa or oov. So if turtling with tanks is so much easier then zerg/protoss. Why isnt there any other then flash who has won (as terran) the latest years? I think every race has their pros and cons. Terran has just come alot further then zerg/protoss in the evolution when it comes down to strategy. And they are really using it to their advantage. But dont say that Flash/Boxer/NaDa/Oov acheivements are worth less then for a S-class zerg/protoss. That is simply disrespecting their hard work and determination. The fact that Boxer, Oov, and Nada were bonjwas really does make Flash's achievements less credible. I consider what Savior/Jaedong did and what Bisu/Nal_rA did more important. The fact that so many terrans achieved that status makes me think that it really isn't so hard(relative to toss/zerg of course). On August 29 2010 18:46 KristianJS wrote:On August 29 2010 18:31 dybydx wrote:
funny how someone just said T is boring cause of turtling with tanks when Flash won his games without any tanks and was on the offense. This. I can't even recall seeing a single sieged tank the whole series. A couple of unsieged ones but that's it. Flash played all the games extremely aggressively. I'm not talking about this series of games, but just in general. Flash wasn't actually too bad this set, and I actually didn't hate his TvZ until he decided that you can be gay with tanks in TvZ too. No I don't think it's imba/unfair, but it doesn't make me like them. IMO Jaedong lost because he was stupid enough to let Flash 14CC 6/7 times. On August 29 2010 19:26 darktreb wrote:
Lightwip's ridiculous anti-Flash bias has blinded him completely from making any rational observations. It's one thing to dislike a player, which everyone has a right to do, but it's incredibly annoying when someone is just constantly whipping out stuff that's borderline completely irrelevant.
Plenty of people on TL who dislike Flash are reasonable. Morons like Lightwip are not one of them. I think this is appropriate here. darktreb has a point... Flash has WL, PL, MSL under his belt already. He has triple MSL finals 2 golds with that and has a possibility of triple OSL finals one gold one silver thus far. Triple back to back double star leagues has never happened, let alone double... also his win percentage and elo is the highest in history of BW.... Korean commentators have also declared Flash as beyond-bonjwa. I really think what you are saying is just your own bias. What I stated was the facts. I read what you read and I can't really look up what you said because it's just how you feel. Flash is everywhere, no matter which league you look no matter which interview you read, Flash is there because he is the best all around player bar none. Oh... and I looked back at your old posts and that's really all you do... trash talk Flash. I really wish Flash joined TL and just made a post about how much of a failure you are. It's one thing to be a rabid fan of a player, it's another to be a rabid hater who QQ's all the time. Flash may or may not be the best player, that's an opinion. I certainly don't like him though because I have an innate hate for tanks and turtling. Whether or not he is the best player, being terran is in my opinion easier, as seen by the fact that there's 3. One reason for the abundance of them is probably because terran is easier to make comebacks with. A protoss/zerg comeback is far less likely than a terran one. When Effort made a comeback in that one game against forGG, GGPlay against Iris, Jangbi against Ruby(when he had a few carriers snipe Ruby's last comsat and then he destroyed Ruby's larger army with DT's) and Bisu against Pure/Clam, those were pretty unexpected and required some really impressive play. When Flash won against Jaedong in the WCG or Movie in the OSL(game 1), it really just looked like some tanks(admittedly, BC's too in the game against JD, which IMO should have been killed by ensnare+devourer+ DIVINE WINDDD) and mines getting more kills than they really should get, which simply isn't as impressive/difficult as epic defiler control, epic harass, or somehow opening a magical hole with which to rape someone with DT's. Dont get me wrong, Flash is a good player and I see why people would like him. But to me he's boring and I think that to an extent he's riding on the fraudulence of terran. You don't watch many Flash games do you? You hate Flash because he uses tanks and turtles? Flash made like 5 tanks in the entire MSL finals and won with 3 well timed aggressive pushes. Sounds really turtle/tanky. Despite the fact that from October on, Flash's TvZ pretty much hinges on the most insane 2 base aggression there is. Despite the fact that Flash's TvP revolution in the start of the year was based on the same idea, a big aggressive FD push or Tornado terran styled vulture harass. But yeah, you're right he's such a turtle. I don't pretend that Flash doesn't turtle on occasion, he has the best defense in the game. All in all he plays aggressively much more often than he turtles. You make your point clear at the end when you point out the "fradulence of terran". You think terran is OP or "easier". If terran were easier than the other races then it stands to reason that they would dominate everything forever, right? Since the fall of Savior the game has been incredibly balanced. Name for me the last terran not Flash to win a SL, Forgg. Before that? Hmmm.. Mind in 2007. This easy race you speak of sure doesn't win many recent tournaments. I think that's more than enough to prove that terran is no more difficult and no easier than the others. totally agree. Although i hate turtle, if flash is good at doing it, why shouldn't he??? thats like saying im REALLY good at soccer, but im not gonna make a profession of it. Not that they shouldn't do it, but it sure is painful to watch.
imo, the end result is this. These players want to win and as much as they like their fans, they just want to win no matter if the game is boring or not. so they will use their perfected strategies instead of putting on a show for the fans.
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JD Fans let's cheer up!
Why I don't feel too bad about this final:
1) It's amazing that JD even got to the final considering the map pool and his quarter-final and semi-final opponents TvZ skills.
2) He beat Flash in a straight-up macro game in game 3. So many were predicting that it would be impossible for JD to beat Flash in a late game. It was nice to see him prove them wrong.
3) He was one 4-pool away from taking out the series. Flash did a blind 14cc in the 5th game. I'm not blaming him for it but to me it shows how close they are in skills that he would be willing to take that risk.
4) He didn't get 3-0ed.
5) There's still the OSL which has at least one zerg-favoring map (although to be honest, even though I'm a big JD fan, I would quite like to see Stork have another shot at Flash).
6) He's still at least the second-best BW player in the world. 
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On August 30 2010 18:30 tomatriedes wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2010 05:49 Lebesgue wrote:On August 30 2010 05:10 SuperArc wrote:On August 30 2010 05:09 Lebesgue wrote:On August 30 2010 04:34 Lightwip wrote:On August 30 2010 03:55 Lebesgue wrote:On August 30 2010 03:15 Lightwip wrote:On August 30 2010 02:36 Trap wrote:
Hopefully we can get a new card next time. I'm not saying these guys played bad, they're amazing players, but watching Flash continually out-strategize the mechanical beast JD while occasionally dropping underwhelming games (game 4) is getting old. Can we get a Zerg who is willing to take some damn risks or try some new TvZ builds? I really wonder if JD considers using a 4-5 pool vs Flash to be beneath him, but considering Flash is known for going 14cc all the damn time, punish him for it. Don't get me wrong, it was a decent series, but as JD is getting older I'm really hoping another Z/P will pick up the slack. I think JD IS too proud to do some serious aggression. He pretty much 12 hatched every time when he really should have just 9 pooled. Effort had the right idea, honestly. Jaedong had the right idea in his final against Fantasy(take advantage of early weakness to negate their strength), but it seems like he lost that somewhere on the way to this final. It seems like getting BBSed and 14CCed didn't really teach Jaedong all that much. On August 30 2010 02:26 AppleTart wrote:On August 30 2010 01:39 Lightwip wrote:On August 29 2010 17:18 vietboi wrote:
[quote]
So you say that Flash acheivements are easier then example Jaedong and Bisu acheivements? I think its more Flash talent, skill and determination that has made him what he is, not the Terran race. I dont reckon many Terrans winning anything since NaDa or oov. So if turtling with tanks is so much easier then zerg/protoss. Why isnt there any other then flash who has won (as terran) the latest years?
I think every race has their pros and cons. Terran has just come alot further then zerg/protoss in the evolution when it comes down to strategy. And they are really using it to their advantage. But dont say that Flash/Boxer/NaDa/Oov acheivements are worth less then for a S-class zerg/protoss. That is simply disrespecting their hard work and determination. The fact that Boxer, Oov, and Nada were bonjwas really does make Flash's achievements less credible. I consider what Savior/Jaedong did and what Bisu/Nal_rA did more important. The fact that so many terrans achieved that status makes me think that it really isn't so hard(relative to toss/zerg of course). On August 29 2010 18:46 KristianJS wrote:
[quote]
This. I can't even recall seeing a single sieged tank the whole series. A couple of unsieged ones but that's it. Flash played all the games extremely aggressively.
I'm not talking about this series of games, but just in general. Flash wasn't actually too bad this set, and I actually didn't hate his TvZ until he decided that you can be gay with tanks in TvZ too. No I don't think it's imba/unfair, but it doesn't make me like them. IMO Jaedong lost because he was stupid enough to let Flash 14CC 6/7 times. On August 29 2010 19:26 darktreb wrote:
Lightwip's ridiculous anti-Flash bias has blinded him completely from making any rational observations. It's one thing to dislike a player, which everyone has a right to do, but it's incredibly annoying when someone is just constantly whipping out stuff that's borderline completely irrelevant.
Plenty of people on TL who dislike Flash are reasonable. Morons like Lightwip are not one of them. I think this is appropriate here. darktreb has a point... Flash has WL, PL, MSL under his belt already. He has triple MSL finals 2 golds with that and has a possibility of triple OSL finals one gold one silver thus far. Triple back to back double star leagues has never happened, let alone double... also his win percentage and elo is the highest in history of BW.... Korean commentators have also declared Flash as beyond-bonjwa. I really think what you are saying is just your own bias. What I stated was the facts. I read what you read and I can't really look up what you said because it's just how you feel. Flash is everywhere, no matter which league you look no matter which interview you read, Flash is there because he is the best all around player bar none. Oh... and I looked back at your old posts and that's really all you do... trash talk Flash. I really wish Flash joined TL and just made a post about how much of a failure you are. It's one thing to be a rabid fan of a player, it's another to be a rabid hater who QQ's all the time. Flash may or may not be the best player, that's an opinion. I certainly don't like him though because I have an innate hate for tanks and turtling. Whether or not he is the best player, being terran is in my opinion easier, as seen by the fact that there's 3. One reason for the abundance of them is probably because terran is easier to make comebacks with. A protoss/zerg comeback is far less likely than a terran one. When Effort made a comeback in that one game against forGG, GGPlay against Iris, Jangbi against Ruby(when he had a few carriers snipe Ruby's last comsat and then he destroyed Ruby's larger army with DT's) and Bisu against Pure/Clam, those were pretty unexpected and required some really impressive play. When Flash won against Jaedong in the WCG or Movie in the OSL(game 1), it really just looked like some tanks(admittedly, BC's too in the game against JD, which IMO should have been killed by ensnare+devourer+ DIVINE WINDDD) and mines getting more kills than they really should get, which simply isn't as impressive/difficult as epic defiler control, epic harass, or somehow opening a magical hole with which to rape someone with DT's. Dont get me wrong, Flash is a good player and I see why people would like him. But to me he's boring and I think that to an extent he's riding on the fraudulence of terran. Just stop posting please. You simply hate Terran race and because Flash is using its potential to the fullest you're Flash hater. If you think mines and siege tank are too powerful let's make Zerg not play with defilers and ultras and Protoss stop using Templars and zealots. Flash is playing Terran as it is meant to be. What do you expect? He should just not siege tanks and let himself be overrun by Protoss or ultras. Terran is defensive race. It's army is super vulnerable if it is not position well. But you don't care about do you? I won't even touch upon stuff you wrote about comebacks. That's just beyond ridiculous. You can hate Terran race and I don't give a crap but please don't let your hate blind you from recognizing sheer skill when you see it I think this is appropriate here too.I don't hate the terran race. Admittedly I like it less than protoss and zerg, but I still think it's alright. And I don't hate good terran players, I pretty much like all of them(except Sea, who isn't good enough for me to like him for his play but good enough to beat people I like more. Not that I hate him, just that I probably won't cheer for him). Flash does have skill, and a lot of it, there's no doubt about that. But by what you're describing, terran is a race where you win if you just defend and don't make mistakes(which an S class really doesn't make most of the time). Protoss and zerg require more than just not leaving holes in defense and splitting the map. Please calm down. Yes, I hate Flash and think terran requires less skill at a higher level. Maybe you don't agree, but that's really no reason to start throwing insults. I am calm. I'm just tired of hearing all the same crap. Terran needs no skill. It is simply siege into gg... And anyone who plays Terran knows it is just pure BS. Terran requires as much skills as any other race. Just look how balanced SC stats are over long timeline. If Terran race was easier to play at the high level then I would expect Terrans to be dominating SC all the time. Yet we don't see it. Unless you imply that T users, and T progamers are worse on average than P anz Z players. Moreover, Terran of all races requires great sense of timings. You think you can just sit in our base and out up defences are win? Well, then I have to say you have no idea about Terran race. Do you watch TvP. As a Terran you have to hit perfect timings with your pushes. Push to early you are overrun, push too late you're overrun. Again, do you think that when Flash does 3:3 push this is insta win. Just watch many games where his push is crushed. And note that no other Terran can do it as well as him. In bio TvZ you need to be super aggresive as soon as you fend off mutas. How do you expect to stop muta harass without Turrets. Unupgraded MnM just melts to good harass. Finally, metal TvZ was just a response to how difficult is late game for Terran One good swarm and it can be gg... Not to mention that upgraded ultras are super powerful against MnM and they just tear through them. Bottom line, no race is easier than the other at the highest level. The feature of great players is that they make they race over-powered. That's why they are so amazing. Terrans are dominating SC... They won more trophies than any other race. And that was all before 2007... As of 2010 they're still ahead in trophy count.
Let's talk about CURRENT balance by including PREVIOUS results! Yay!
I'm not quite sure if you understood completely what Lebesgue (and you) are saying.
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Wow what a fun series (with the exception of game 4). Every game felt really intense and nerve-racking. Thought Flash's builds in games 1 and 2 were pretty exciting, but game 3 was probably the best of the series.
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On August 31 2010 03:02 tomatriedes wrote:
JD Fans let's cheer up!
Why I don't feel too bad about this final:
2) He beat Flash in a straight-up macro game in game 3. So many were predicting that it would be impossible for JD to beat Flash in a late game. It was nice to see him prove them wrong.
Not only that, but he was in a severe disadvantage going into the lategame due to his woefully delayed third. I seriously thought the whole thing was going to end 3:0.
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On August 31 2010 03:02 tomatriedes wrote:
JD Fans let's cheer up!
Why I don't feel too bad about this final:
1) It's amazing that JD even got to the final considering the map pool and his quarter-final and semi-final opponents TvZ skills.
2) He beat Flash in a straight-up macro game in game 3. So many were predicting that it would be impossible for JD to beat Flash in a late game. It was nice to see him prove them wrong.
3) He was one 4-pool away from taking out the series.
Well said. In one game they went skill to skill and Jaedong won despite being 0-2. It went to game five despite 3 maps being T favored, all of which had only 2 starting locations. Jaedong tried to play out his plan rather than 4 pool, and I give Flash credit for his scouting with 14CC in the previous games to make Jaedong afraid to 4pool.
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Please people, it's ok to be disappointed Jaedong lost, but yout can't take anything away from Flash. Honestly, his games were brilliantly played. I've always been a terran hater (except for oov), but when a person attains the level that Flash has in broodwar, it's honestly pure art, not cheese. He rapes toss even harder than zerg and is incredibly robust in tvt. Jaedong is brilliant as well and equally smart, but Flash has the upper hand in in the mind games at the moment and you have to give him credit for his play.
Game1: Brilliantly controlled timing push
Game2: another ingenius timing push but of a different variation,
Game3: decides to get down and dirty with Jaedong and is beaten, but in an extremely close game.
Game4: is slightly on tilt and loses to some lings.
Game5: Goes for an all-build and shows some great micro.
I think he is the best player of all time without a doubt.
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I wish us zergs could call our all-in attacks "timing pushes".
When a terran goes 3rax its "omg super timing push from x!!"
When a zerg goes for a hydra bust "wtf stupid cheeser gtfo"
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Why, SuperArc? Why must you insist?
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On August 31 2010 06:59 SuperArc wrote:
I wish us zergs could call our all-in attacks "timing pushes".
When a terran goes 3rax its "omg super timing push from x!!"
When a zerg goes for a hydra bust "wtf stupid cheeser gtfo"
Cheesing protoss is just dirty zerg. I tend to lose respect for players that can only hydra bust.
That's why by.hero is a loser noob failure.
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On August 31 2010 06:59 SuperArc wrote:
I wish us zergs could call our all-in attacks "timing pushes".
When a terran goes 3rax its "omg super timing push from x!!"
When a zerg goes for a hydra bust "wtf stupid cheeser gtfo"
Zerg is crap on 2 bases, terran is not. That is the distinction. When zerg does those 2 base busts it's almost entirely an all in, when terran does it he's still got a reliable economy.
These were bad comparisons though. Zergs don't really have mid game timing pushes because their midgame units don't tend to that kind of play (lurkers are highly defensive and mutas aren't a good unit for straight up attacks most of the time). Then they transition into an intolerably strong lategame composition which obviously isn't a "timing" push.
If I see a zerg do some kind of economically stable 3 base lurker/muta push that still transitions reasonably or something then it'd be a timing push. But you don't see that because if Zergs have 3 bases and lurkers, why not just get defilers and secure a fourth and "win"?
Blame savior, basically.
It's not entirely mutually exclusive, though. There's been a few times, Jaedong in particular, when a muta attack was an attack at a timing window (Famously "e-han" timing). That's a timing push, kind of.
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So much for JD being undefeated in 5-game sets.
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EPT
