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Turtling, boring, cheesy style or what not, are all strategies. Flash uses what he sees fit and win because of it. People should stop complaining and appreciate that he's the best player currently, and perhaps, of all time. Excuses are rationalizations to make people feel better, but one can't deny Flash is awesome.
In terms of complaining, one can say the same thing about almost every game that was lost. Flash lost the last OSL because Effort cheesed and Flash lost the this MSL's 4th game because Jaedong cheesed, blah blah.
Come on people, accept reality.
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On August 30 2010 13:37 Crt wrote:Flash lost the last OSL because Effort cheesed and Flash lost the this MSL's 4th game because Jaedong cheesed, blah blah.
Funny thing is, I don't think 9 pool is cheese. It just counters 14CC.
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Funny thing is, you are utterly incoherent.
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United States7481 Posts
don't try to reason with lightwip, he's just a blind flash hater
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I'm not hating on Flash, I just don't like 9 pool being called cheese.
Seriously, you guys talk about flash hating a bit too much.
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konadora
Singapore66161 Posts
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On August 30 2010 14:18 Lightwip wrote:
I'm not hating on Flash, I just don't like 9 pool being called cheese.
Seriously, you guys talk about flash hating a bit too much.
i thought 9 pool is the Z version of proxy gate or bunk rush.
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United States10774 Posts
On August 30 2010 10:11 koreasilver wrote:
Flash has generally been playing with an aggressive style for almost a year now. If you're going to bitch about the tank heavy late game TvZ that he has developed, then you might as well bitch about how Zergs essentially turtle every late game to get their fourth gas.
I can only assume that everyone that complains about Flash being "boring" or being a "turtle" and only complains about those things haven't really been watching any of Flash's games. The most recent ones that have risen from this MSL final being the worst, as Flash's TvZ runs from aggressive to hyper aggressive nowadays.
Agreed.
I hope people understand that Flash's turtle style is optimized to counter the Defiler three base into four-gas play, which players like Jaedong/Effort/Action excel at. Since you can't kill stop the Zerg's third gas (or the fourth if he plays it right), you are forced to match him in economy and just overwhelm him with superior strength.
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5930 Posts
On August 30 2010 14:18 Lightwip wrote:
I'm not hating on Flash, I just don't like 9 pool being called cheese.
I don't quite think you are quite coherent in your thoughts right now...I don't think anyone has claimed 9 pool as "cheese".
To clarify, I don't believe Crt actually means 9 pool is cheese. He means that while its easy to make excuses for your favourite player's losses (eg saying Flash is still worse than Jaedong because he needs 14CC economic cheese to win or Flash's losses don't mean anything because he lost to cheesy 9 pool play), you really shouldn't be whining and should just accept that the better player won for whatever reason.
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On August 30 2010 14:23 dybydx wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2010 14:18 Lightwip wrote:
I'm not hating on Flash, I just don't like 9 pool being called cheese.
Seriously, you guys talk about flash hating a bit too much. i thought 9 pool is the Z version of proxy gate or bunk rush.
The Z version of proxy gates is 4/5 pool. 9 pool is the equivalent of 2 gate in base or 8 rax in base.
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FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
I just realized I only have three posts in this thread.
Time to make it four and watch VODs now since kona no longer streaming ><
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IMO, in game 4, Flash should've went for 3 rax firebats into nukes. 3 nukes.
Unfortunately, only 2 of the games were good unless you just like Flash. Game 3 was epic enough to make up for it though.
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All maps was T-favored XD "Marvellous" Flash won only on totaly imbalanced Polaris and Odd-Eye  Sad that the weaker player won thx 2 mappol : (
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I`m reading and I`m thinking and reading and thinking and almost everyone has a point. IMO we just can not understand what happened in the first two games. Although they were very one-sided, I think it amazing that player like Jaedong can lose in such way. Flash is from another planet.
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I knew there would be some idiots who would try to claim that a 9-pool is cheese. 
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On August 30 2010 05:49 Lebesgue wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2010 05:10 SuperArc wrote:On August 30 2010 05:09 Lebesgue wrote:On August 30 2010 04:34 Lightwip wrote:On August 30 2010 03:55 Lebesgue wrote:On August 30 2010 03:15 Lightwip wrote:On August 30 2010 02:36 Trap wrote:
Hopefully we can get a new card next time. I'm not saying these guys played bad, they're amazing players, but watching Flash continually out-strategize the mechanical beast JD while occasionally dropping underwhelming games (game 4) is getting old. Can we get a Zerg who is willing to take some damn risks or try some new TvZ builds? I really wonder if JD considers using a 4-5 pool vs Flash to be beneath him, but considering Flash is known for going 14cc all the damn time, punish him for it. Don't get me wrong, it was a decent series, but as JD is getting older I'm really hoping another Z/P will pick up the slack. I think JD IS too proud to do some serious aggression. He pretty much 12 hatched every time when he really should have just 9 pooled. Effort had the right idea, honestly. Jaedong had the right idea in his final against Fantasy(take advantage of early weakness to negate their strength), but it seems like he lost that somewhere on the way to this final. It seems like getting BBSed and 14CCed didn't really teach Jaedong all that much. On August 30 2010 02:26 AppleTart wrote:On August 30 2010 01:39 Lightwip wrote:On August 29 2010 17:18 vietboi wrote:On August 29 2010 14:52 Lightwip wrote:
[quote]
Honestly, the tendency of terrans to just sit with tanks and try to turtle their way through doesn't make me respect them much. I think an S class protoss/zerg is much harder to achieve. So you say that Flash acheivements are easier then example Jaedong and Bisu acheivements? I think its more Flash talent, skill and determination that has made him what he is, not the Terran race. I dont reckon many Terrans winning anything since NaDa or oov. So if turtling with tanks is so much easier then zerg/protoss. Why isnt there any other then flash who has won (as terran) the latest years? I think every race has their pros and cons. Terran has just come alot further then zerg/protoss in the evolution when it comes down to strategy. And they are really using it to their advantage. But dont say that Flash/Boxer/NaDa/Oov acheivements are worth less then for a S-class zerg/protoss. That is simply disrespecting their hard work and determination. The fact that Boxer, Oov, and Nada were bonjwas really does make Flash's achievements less credible. I consider what Savior/Jaedong did and what Bisu/Nal_rA did more important. The fact that so many terrans achieved that status makes me think that it really isn't so hard(relative to toss/zerg of course). On August 29 2010 18:46 KristianJS wrote:On August 29 2010 18:31 dybydx wrote:
funny how someone just said T is boring cause of turtling with tanks when Flash won his games without any tanks and was on the offense. This. I can't even recall seeing a single sieged tank the whole series. A couple of unsieged ones but that's it. Flash played all the games extremely aggressively. I'm not talking about this series of games, but just in general. Flash wasn't actually too bad this set, and I actually didn't hate his TvZ until he decided that you can be gay with tanks in TvZ too. No I don't think it's imba/unfair, but it doesn't make me like them. IMO Jaedong lost because he was stupid enough to let Flash 14CC 6/7 times. On August 29 2010 19:26 darktreb wrote:
Lightwip's ridiculous anti-Flash bias has blinded him completely from making any rational observations. It's one thing to dislike a player, which everyone has a right to do, but it's incredibly annoying when someone is just constantly whipping out stuff that's borderline completely irrelevant.
Plenty of people on TL who dislike Flash are reasonable. Morons like Lightwip are not one of them. I think this is appropriate here. darktreb has a point... Flash has WL, PL, MSL under his belt already. He has triple MSL finals 2 golds with that and has a possibility of triple OSL finals one gold one silver thus far. Triple back to back double star leagues has never happened, let alone double... also his win percentage and elo is the highest in history of BW.... Korean commentators have also declared Flash as beyond-bonjwa. I really think what you are saying is just your own bias. What I stated was the facts. I read what you read and I can't really look up what you said because it's just how you feel. Flash is everywhere, no matter which league you look no matter which interview you read, Flash is there because he is the best all around player bar none. Oh... and I looked back at your old posts and that's really all you do... trash talk Flash. I really wish Flash joined TL and just made a post about how much of a failure you are. It's one thing to be a rabid fan of a player, it's another to be a rabid hater who QQ's all the time. Flash may or may not be the best player, that's an opinion. I certainly don't like him though because I have an innate hate for tanks and turtling. Whether or not he is the best player, being terran is in my opinion easier, as seen by the fact that there's 3. One reason for the abundance of them is probably because terran is easier to make comebacks with. A protoss/zerg comeback is far less likely than a terran one. When Effort made a comeback in that one game against forGG, GGPlay against Iris, Jangbi against Ruby(when he had a few carriers snipe Ruby's last comsat and then he destroyed Ruby's larger army with DT's) and Bisu against Pure/Clam, those were pretty unexpected and required some really impressive play. When Flash won against Jaedong in the WCG or Movie in the OSL(game 1), it really just looked like some tanks(admittedly, BC's too in the game against JD, which IMO should have been killed by ensnare+devourer+ DIVINE WINDDD) and mines getting more kills than they really should get, which simply isn't as impressive/difficult as epic defiler control, epic harass, or somehow opening a magical hole with which to rape someone with DT's. Dont get me wrong, Flash is a good player and I see why people would like him. But to me he's boring and I think that to an extent he's riding on the fraudulence of terran. Just stop posting please. You simply hate Terran race and because Flash is using its potential to the fullest you're Flash hater. If you think mines and siege tank are too powerful let's make Zerg not play with defilers and ultras and Protoss stop using Templars and zealots. Flash is playing Terran as it is meant to be. What do you expect? He should just not siege tanks and let himself be overrun by Protoss or ultras. Terran is defensive race. It's army is super vulnerable if it is not position well. But you don't care about do you? I won't even touch upon stuff you wrote about comebacks. That's just beyond ridiculous. You can hate Terran race and I don't give a crap but please don't let your hate blind you from recognizing sheer skill when you see it I think this is appropriate here too.I don't hate the terran race. Admittedly I like it less than protoss and zerg, but I still think it's alright. And I don't hate good terran players, I pretty much like all of them(except Sea, who isn't good enough for me to like him for his play but good enough to beat people I like more. Not that I hate him, just that I probably won't cheer for him). Flash does have skill, and a lot of it, there's no doubt about that. But by what you're describing, terran is a race where you win if you just defend and don't make mistakes(which an S class really doesn't make most of the time). Protoss and zerg require more than just not leaving holes in defense and splitting the map. Please calm down. Yes, I hate Flash and think terran requires less skill at a higher level. Maybe you don't agree, but that's really no reason to start throwing insults. I am calm. I'm just tired of hearing all the same crap. Terran needs no skill. It is simply siege into gg... And anyone who plays Terran knows it is just pure BS. Terran requires as much skills as any other race. Just look how balanced SC stats are over long timeline. If Terran race was easier to play at the high level then I would expect Terrans to be dominating SC all the time. Yet we don't see it. Unless you imply that T users, and T progamers are worse on average than P anz Z players. Moreover, Terran of all races requires great sense of timings. You think you can just sit in our base and out up defences are win? Well, then I have to say you have no idea about Terran race. Do you watch TvP. As a Terran you have to hit perfect timings with your pushes. Push to early you are overrun, push too late you're overrun. Again, do you think that when Flash does 3:3 push this is insta win. Just watch many games where his push is crushed. And note that no other Terran can do it as well as him. In bio TvZ you need to be super aggresive as soon as you fend off mutas. How do you expect to stop muta harass without Turrets. Unupgraded MnM just melts to good harass. Finally, metal TvZ was just a response to how difficult is late game for Terran One good swarm and it can be gg... Not to mention that upgraded ultras are super powerful against MnM and they just tear through them. Bottom line, no race is easier than the other at the highest level. The feature of great players is that they make they race over-powered. That's why they are so amazing. Terrans are dominating SC... They won more trophies than any other race. And that was all before 2007...
As of 2010 they're still ahead in trophy count.
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Congrats to Flash for the win, though to bad that map pool cant be more balanced.
As for boring defensiv play etc, I think its all a matter of taste. I think that defensive play is a perfectly valid way of playing. And that goes for most competative sports etc. Nobody liked Greece when they won the Euro championship in fotball by basically being super defensive and scoring like 1 goal every game at a corner. But they did it brilliantly.
I persoanlly think its just to boring to watch, so I prefer offensive play, and so does most people. Its nothing personal, its just a question of what you like.
Rematch in OSL, though I hope a protoss will be there to spoil it :-)
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On August 30 2010 20:49 purpose wrote:
Congrats to Flash for the win, though to bad that map pool cant be more balanced.
As for boring defensiv play etc, I think its all a matter of taste. I think that defensive play is a perfectly valid way of playing. And that goes for most competative sports etc. Nobody liked Greece when they won the Euro championship in fotball by basically being super defensive and scoring like 1 goal every game at a corner. But they did it brilliantly.
I persoanlly think its just to boring to watch, so I prefer offensive play, and so does most people. Its nothing personal, its just a question of what you like.
Rematch in OSL, though I hope a protoss will be there to spoil it :-)
What defensive play? Jaedong's?
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On August 30 2010 21:01 Yggdrasil Leaf wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2010 20:49 purpose wrote:
Congrats to Flash for the win, though to bad that map pool cant be more balanced.
As for boring defensiv play etc, I think its all a matter of taste. I think that defensive play is a perfectly valid way of playing. And that goes for most competative sports etc. Nobody liked Greece when they won the Euro championship in fotball by basically being super defensive and scoring like 1 goal every game at a corner. But they did it brilliantly.
I persoanlly think its just to boring to watch, so I prefer offensive play, and so does most people. Its nothing personal, its just a question of what you like.
Rematch in OSL, though I hope a protoss will be there to spoil it :-) What defensive play? Jaedong's?
I was just commenting on the discussion about Flash being a boring camper. It was not a statement about the final.
I mean if you havent been hiding under a rock the last couple of months its kinda obvious that Flash often played so boring that even a few flash fanboys fell asleep.
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Oh, well ok, after reading out tons of posts here, there is only one thing for me left to say. I was almost sure that Jae would lose to Flash, why? Because Flash is simply better, the way he plays, is like he once said "I solved sc", and I do believe him, the way he wins, makes me love this game even more, thank you Flash.
There were so little clever posts here, but I must say that this:
"we'll stop whining about map imbalances when you stop whining about Kespa's decision on game 3 in the Nate MSL. Seriously, anyone who knows anything about SC knows that Flash had no chance of winning that game, or the series for that matter. Although, to be fair, I understand that prolly 80% of Flash's fans are just Boxer/Terran obsessed noobs, and I certainly respect the 20% who manage to form unbiased opinions and actually know what they're talking about."
and this:
"The great thing about Flash vs Jaedong series is that it reveals the weaknesses in these players that normally aren't noticed. Jaedong has been to 6+ finals and played countless bo5's, undefeated in game5. He wasn't nervous, and he didn't pick today to play subpar. Flash's superior timing and micro pressured him into making errors he wouldn't normally make. Similarly, Flash's lategame against Jaedong looks considerably less dominating than when he shows it against other players."
are goddamn things every one now must learn by heart.
P.S.from my fanboy heart , Jae, I wish you do prepare well for OSL and I will see you outplay Flash!!! gogogogogo
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EPT
