On August 29 2010 13:18 KissBlade wrote: I really don't understand how can there be any Flash fans. What part of his play do people find so exciting? God, I tried not to watch the finals because I was afraid of jinxing things but I had a stupid sinking feeling the moment I checked this thread. BAH I SAY.
I'm less of a fan of Flash than I am of Jaedong, but I have been growing to like him.
And honestly, it's the near-perfection of it. Jaedong sometimes has that same quality, but not quite as consistently, and he doesn't have Flash's sense of timing. There's something half-amazing (and half-frustrating) watching Flash basically use his scouting advantage, his knowledge of what he expects Jaedong to go for on a particular map, and then he goes with a build tailored to be ready to attack Jaedong before he is ready, while making sure to prevent Jaedong from scouting the build. When it works really, really well, it looks like Games 1 or 2 - it makes the second best player in the world look absolutely terrible.
After watching Jaedong have two other best of five series with Sea and Light and win those, it makes the timeliness of those pushes even more amazing.
Granted, it can sometimes be frustrating if you were wanting someone else to win, and I generally like the feel of watching Zerg play - I like the feeling when I watch a Zerg player use flanking, swarms, plague, and scourge micro all in synchronization to destroy a Terran army that in a head to head battle would simply destroy even a significantly larger Zerg army without benefit of those spells. But there's definitely something to appreciate about what Flash does - and he's the only one who does it with as much consistency.
After watching the finals I'm convinced that flash is mortal after all. How did he beat JD? Mindgames, perfect timing pushes, creative play. Oh wait, that makes flash seem like not a mortal. But you get what I mean. Between his 14 CCs, and his perfectly timed +1 goliath push, that's what's beating JD consistently and I have faith that he can adjust.
On August 29 2010 21:22 Warrior Madness wrote: After watching the finals I'm convinced that flash is mortal after all. How did he beat JD? Mindgames, perfect timing pushes, creative play. Oh wait, that makes flash seem like not a mortal. But you get what I mean. Between his 14 CCs, and his perfectly timed +1 goliath push, that's what's beating JD consistently and I have faith that he can adjust.
Exactly.
I actually think Flash was nervous in the fifth set and forgot to send a scouting scv in time and thats why he did a blind 14cc.
On August 29 2010 13:18 KissBlade wrote: I really don't understand how can there be any Flash fans. What part of his play do people find so exciting? God, I tried not to watch the finals because I was afraid of jinxing things but I had a stupid sinking feeling the moment I checked this thread. BAH I SAY.
This is your opinion. People wonder the same thing about jaedong too
I've seen very few people wondering what people like about Jaedong. He's probably the most liked player out of all of them right now.
So what is it that makes you like Jaedong? (If you like him).
haha, i became a major jaedong fan by being a major fantasy anti-fan in the first place
what makes me love jaedong is after he gets beaten, he comes back and crushes them like "lol, u just got owned"
On August 29 2010 13:18 KissBlade wrote: I really don't understand how can there be any Flash fans. What part of his play do people find so exciting? God, I tried not to watch the finals because I was afraid of jinxing things but I had a stupid sinking feeling the moment I checked this thread. BAH I SAY.
This is your opinion. People wonder the same thing about jaedong too
I've seen very few people wondering what people like about Jaedong. He's probably the most liked player out of all of them right now.
So what is it that makes you like Jaedong? (If you like him).
haha, i became a major jaedong fan by being a major fantasy anti-fan in the first place
what makes me love jaedong is after he gets beaten, he comes back and crushes them like "lol, u just got owned"
Jaedong invented losing the first game, then going into godmode and winning 3-1.
On August 29 2010 17:08 blade55555 wrote: I think Jaedong would have done a lot better in game 5 if he hadn't had worse muta micro then normal, and he sacraficed a lot of lurkers for stupid reasons which costed him the game imo. But OSL if they do a re I have a feeling Jaedong will crush him 3-0 specially with a better map pool :D
Yeah I think he was nervous during the muta-micro.
As i said Jaedong lost due to his nerves. Normally all those troops of Flash would have been crushed ridiculously in the middle of the map with JD's uber micro ...
Normally..... Just like Jaedong should have crushed Flash in every game last MSL if only he wasn't nervous, right? The great thing about Flash vs Jaedong series is that it reveals the weaknesses in these players that normally aren't noticed. Jaedong has been to 6+ finals and played countless bo5's, undefeated in game5. He wasn't nervous, and he didn't pick today to play subpar. Flash's superior timing and micro pressured him into making errors he wouldn't normally make. Similarly, Flash's lategame against Jaedong looks considerably less dominating than when he shows it against other players.
On August 29 2010 19:06 insanet wrote: you know, practicing with Zero an Effort two consecutive finals is something JD must envy. Could you imagine how well prepared could get JD if he could practice with Fantasy and Light, instead of some low class Terran or random B teamer he thanked in one of his interviews.
Ok, I'm a bit late, but who cares. I'm so happy with these results. I was feeling really bad for JD after game two, he doesn't deserve to be raped 3:0 twice in row (although I would love to see Flash's haters after that lol), but I couldn't really take another 2:0 -> 2:3 Flash loss, so the 3:2 result is absolutely perfect. Hopefully OSL will end the same .
Anyway, congrats Flash, very well played and absolutely deserved!
On August 29 2010 17:08 blade55555 wrote: I think Jaedong would have done a lot better in game 5 if he hadn't had worse muta micro then normal, and he sacraficed a lot of lurkers for stupid reasons which costed him the game imo. But OSL if they do a re I have a feeling Jaedong will crush him 3-0 specially with a better map pool :D
Yeah I think he was nervous during the muta-micro.
As i said Jaedong lost due to his nerves. Normally all those troops of Flash would have been crushed ridiculously in the middle of the map with JD's uber micro ...
Normally..... Just like Jaedong should have crushed Flash in every game last MSL if only he wasn't nervous, right? The great thing about Flash vs Jaedong series is that it reveals the weaknesses in these players that normally aren't noticed. Jaedong has been to 6+ finals and played countless bo5's, undefeated in game5. He wasn't nervous, and he didn't pick today to play subpar. Flash's superior timing and micro pressured him into making errors he wouldn't normally make. Similarly, Flash's lategame against Jaedong looks considerably less dominating than when he shows it against other players.
Good post. I think "Jaedong had bad muta micro" had to be balanced with "Flash had excellent marine micro", especially in that first push where he repeatedly ignores Jaedong's feints and stims only when it will result in kills. Then irradiating the muta ball so Jaedong has to spend his time separating when he should be saving his lurkers allowed Flash to take map control and it was over.
Bottom line: They're both amazing players and if it weren't for Flash, it would be Jaedong. I'm more of a Jaedong fan, but you can't argue with five consecutive finals appearances. Luckily, this series didn't show that Flash is out of Jaedong's reach and there is more drama in store for us in the OSL. Flash will have to continue to adapt and improve or Jaedong will catch him. So get ready for more awesome games StarCraft fans!
On August 29 2010 13:18 KissBlade wrote: I really don't understand how can there be any Flash fans. What part of his play do people find so exciting? God, I tried not to watch the finals because I was afraid of jinxing things but I had a stupid sinking feeling the moment I checked this thread. BAH I SAY.
This is your opinion. People wonder the same thing about jaedong too
I've seen very few people wondering what people like about Jaedong. He's probably the most liked player out of all of them right now.
So what is it that makes you like Jaedong? (If you like him).
Honestly, the tendency of terrans to just sit with tanks and try to turtle their way through doesn't make me respect them much. I think an S class protoss/zerg is much harder to achieve.
So you say that Flash acheivements are easier then example Jaedong and Bisu acheivements? I think its more Flash talent, skill and determination that has made him what he is, not the Terran race. I dont reckon many Terrans winning anything since NaDa or oov. So if turtling with tanks is so much easier then zerg/protoss. Why isnt there any other then flash who has won (as terran) the latest years?
I think every race has their pros and cons. Terran has just come alot further then zerg/protoss in the evolution when it comes down to strategy. And they are really using it to their advantage. But dont say that Flash/Boxer/NaDa/Oov acheivements are worth less then for a S-class zerg/protoss. That is simply disrespecting their hard work and determination.
The fact that Boxer, Oov, and Nada were bonjwas really does make Flash's achievements less credible. I consider what Savior/Jaedong did and what Bisu/Nal_rA did more important. The fact that so many terrans achieved that status makes me think that it really isn't so hard(relative to toss/zerg of course).
On August 29 2010 18:31 dybydx wrote: funny how someone just said T is boring cause of turtling with tanks when Flash won his games without any tanks and was on the offense.
This. I can't even recall seeing a single sieged tank the whole series. A couple of unsieged ones but that's it. Flash played all the games extremely aggressively.
I'm not talking about this series of games, but just in general. Flash wasn't actually too bad this set, and I actually didn't hate his TvZ until he decided that you can be gay with tanks in TvZ too. No I don't think it's imba/unfair, but it doesn't make me like them. IMO Jaedong lost because he was stupid enough to let Flash 14CC 6/7 times.
On August 29 2010 19:26 darktreb wrote: Lightwip's ridiculous anti-Flash bias has blinded him completely from making any rational observations. It's one thing to dislike a player, which everyone has a right to do, but it's incredibly annoying when someone is just constantly whipping out stuff that's borderline completely irrelevant. Plenty of people on TL who dislike Flash are reasonable. Morons like Lightwip are not one of them.
On August 29 2010 21:53 SuperArc wrote: I actually think Flash was nervous in the fifth set and forgot to send a scouting scv in time and thats why he did a blind 14cc.
On August 29 2010 13:18 KissBlade wrote: I really don't understand how can there be any Flash fans. What part of his play do people find so exciting? God, I tried not to watch the finals because I was afraid of jinxing things but I had a stupid sinking feeling the moment I checked this thread. BAH I SAY.
This is your opinion. People wonder the same thing about jaedong too
I've seen very few people wondering what people like about Jaedong. He's probably the most liked player out of all of them right now.
So what is it that makes you like Jaedong? (If you like him).
Honestly, the tendency of terrans to just sit with tanks and try to turtle their way through doesn't make me respect them much. I think an S class protoss/zerg is much harder to achieve.
So you say that Flash acheivements are easier then example Jaedong and Bisu acheivements? I think its more Flash talent, skill and determination that has made him what he is, not the Terran race. I dont reckon many Terrans winning anything since NaDa or oov. So if turtling with tanks is so much easier then zerg/protoss. Why isnt there any other then flash who has won (as terran) the latest years?
I think every race has their pros and cons. Terran has just come alot further then zerg/protoss in the evolution when it comes down to strategy. And they are really using it to their advantage. But dont say that Flash/Boxer/NaDa/Oov acheivements are worth less then for a S-class zerg/protoss. That is simply disrespecting their hard work and determination.
The fact that Boxer, Oov, and Nada were bonjwas really does make Flash's achievements less credible. I consider what Savior/Jaedong did and what Bisu/Nal_rA did more important. The fact that so many terrans achieved that status makes me think that it really isn't so hard(relative to toss/zerg of course).
On August 29 2010 18:31 dybydx wrote: funny how someone just said T is boring cause of turtling with tanks when Flash won his games without any tanks and was on the offense.
This. I can't even recall seeing a single sieged tank the whole series. A couple of unsieged ones but that's it. Flash played all the games extremely aggressively.
I'm not talking about this series of games, but just in general. Flash wasn't actually too bad this set, and I actually didn't hate his TvZ until he decided that you can be gay with tanks in TvZ too. No I don't think it's imba/unfair, but it doesn't make me like them. IMO Jaedong lost because he was stupid enough to let Flash 14CC 6/7 times.
Jaedong fan checking in.
It is really mind boggling to me that anybody who thinks "Bonjwa" is meaningful is arguing about whether it applies to Flash. If achievements have anything to do with it, then Flash is it. None of the players whose achievements you "consider more important" come even remotely close to the mathematical level of dominance Flash has achieved in the past year and a half.
As for "Terran is imba", would anybody be saying this if Flash didn't exist?
On August 29 2010 13:18 KissBlade wrote: I really don't understand how can there be any Flash fans. What part of his play do people find so exciting? God, I tried not to watch the finals because I was afraid of jinxing things but I had a stupid sinking feeling the moment I checked this thread. BAH I SAY.
This is your opinion. People wonder the same thing about jaedong too
I've seen very few people wondering what people like about Jaedong. He's probably the most liked player out of all of them right now.
So what is it that makes you like Jaedong? (If you like him).
Honestly, the tendency of terrans to just sit with tanks and try to turtle their way through doesn't make me respect them much. I think an S class protoss/zerg is much harder to achieve.
So you say that Flash acheivements are easier then example Jaedong and Bisu acheivements? I think its more Flash talent, skill and determination that has made him what he is, not the Terran race. I dont reckon many Terrans winning anything since NaDa or oov. So if turtling with tanks is so much easier then zerg/protoss. Why isnt there any other then flash who has won (as terran) the latest years?
I think every race has their pros and cons. Terran has just come alot further then zerg/protoss in the evolution when it comes down to strategy. And they are really using it to their advantage. But dont say that Flash/Boxer/NaDa/Oov acheivements are worth less then for a S-class zerg/protoss. That is simply disrespecting their hard work and determination.
The fact that Boxer, Oov, and Nada were bonjwas really does make Flash's achievements less credible. I consider what Savior/Jaedong did and what Bisu/Nal_rA did more important. The fact that so many terrans achieved that status makes me think that it really isn't so hard(relative to toss/zerg of course).
On August 29 2010 18:31 dybydx wrote: funny how someone just said T is boring cause of turtling with tanks when Flash won his games without any tanks and was on the offense.
This. I can't even recall seeing a single sieged tank the whole series. A couple of unsieged ones but that's it. Flash played all the games extremely aggressively.
I'm not talking about this series of games, but just in general. Flash wasn't actually too bad this set, and I actually didn't hate his TvZ until he decided that you can be gay with tanks in TvZ too. No I don't think it's imba/unfair, but it doesn't make me like them. IMO Jaedong lost because he was stupid enough to let Flash 14CC 6/7 times.
On August 29 2010 19:26 darktreb wrote: Lightwip's ridiculous anti-Flash bias has blinded him completely from making any rational observations. It's one thing to dislike a player, which everyone has a right to do, but it's incredibly annoying when someone is just constantly whipping out stuff that's borderline completely irrelevant. Plenty of people on TL who dislike Flash are reasonable. Morons like Lightwip are not one of them.
darktreb has a point... Flash has WL, PL, MSL under his belt already. He has triple MSL finals 2 golds with that and has a possibility of triple OSL finals one gold one silver thus far. Triple back to back double star leagues has never happened, let alone double... also his win percentage and elo is the highest in history of BW.... Korean commentators have also declared Flash as beyond-bonjwa. I really think what you are saying is just your own bias. What I stated was the facts. I read what you read and I can't really look up what you said because it's just how you feel. Flash is everywhere, no matter which league you look no matter which interview you read, Flash is there because he is the best all around player bar none.
Oh... and I looked back at your old posts and that's really all you do... trash talk Flash. I really wish Flash joined TL and just made a post about how much of a failure you are. It's one thing to be a rabid fan of a player, it's another to be a rabid hater who QQ's all the time.
Hopefully we can get a new card next time. I'm not saying these guys played bad, they're amazing players, but watching Flash continually out-strategize the mechanical beast JD while occasionally dropping underwhelming games (game 4) is getting old. Can we get a Zerg who is willing to take some damn risks or try some new TvZ builds? I really wonder if JD considers using a 4-5 pool vs Flash to be beneath him, but considering Flash is known for going 14cc all the damn time, punish him for it. Don't get me wrong, it was a decent series, but as JD is getting older I'm really hoping another Z/P will pick up the slack.
EPT
