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On May 29 2010 21:00 TwoToneTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 20:55 Lebesgue wrote:On May 29 2010 20:54 DarkMatter_ wrote:On May 29 2010 20:52 TwoToneTerran wrote:On May 29 2010 20:50 DarkMatter_ wrote:
Jaedong seriously needs to get better practice partners. Flash had help from the likes of Effort and ZerO whereas Jaedong got ideas from....Killer and NeeL... He practices with Wemade. Wemade terrans are similar to woongjin zergs in quality. I don't think he practiced with them on this particular occasion. Pregame interview seems to suggest that he only practiced with his own teammates. It worked for him before. Jaedong is known from the fact that he mainly practices with his team mates. No he isn't. It was made quite clear that he practiced with Leta, Light and Hwasin and other such terrans when prepping for Fantasy in the OSL finals. Jaedong and Oz are known for spartan like training regimens but they still practice outside the team.
From the Nate winner interview:
"I think this was a victory that my teammates, coaches and I made together."
Didn't mention any other players helping him practice.
From his Bacchus winner interview:
"I practiced hard with my teammates and it was then when I felt that I was sure to win this OSL".
Again he didn't mention any other player helping him practice.
From quarterfinals this MSL:
"My teammates helped me a lot in preparing for this game, I’m thankful and I’m gonna treat them to a good meal".
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On May 29 2010 20:53 7mk wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 20:24 DarkMatter_ wrote:On May 29 2010 20:05 Hot_Bid wrote:On May 29 2010 20:00 DarkMatter_ wrote:On May 29 2010 19:46 538 wrote:On May 29 2010 19:41 jonich0n wrote:
This title is Flash's. Yes, he just lost OSL to EffOrt, but he lost because EffOrt played like a newbie. The complete randomness of EffOrt's play caused Flash to lose, not Flash slumping or burning out. Flash has to be insanely upset at this loss to a much inferior player. I believe he will bring everything he has to the MSL finals, and even Jaedong will be hard pressed to stand up to that. Don't pull an Idra to take away Effort's achievement. Effort outplayed Flash on that day, easy as that, JD today didnt. Pretty much. It's commendable that Jaedong tried to beat Flash at his own game (late game macro-oriented games) rather than relying on cheese (well except for game 3 but that was more of a reaction to Flash's 14CC) but It's disappointing that there was no early aggression from Jaedong. One of Jaedong's distinguishing quality is that even when going for a macro-oriented build, he still finds a way to get in his opponent's face with some kind of early harass or pressure, even if it's just with his initial set of lings. But today, his play seemed completely passive and it looked like he was on the back foot the whole time. It's very uncharacteristic of him and I found it hugely disappointing. I truly feel bad for Jaedong because he probably would've fared a lot better if he just played like he always does in any random proleague match. Instead he put so much hard work and effort trying to come up with more original and elaborate builds only to be punished for it. JD went 2 defiler mounds and an earlier 4th in game 1, yes thats kind of new. he went standard in game 2, 3H before pool is not innovative vs flash anymore. in game 3 hydra break is hardly creative. JD made a calculated choice not to play aggressively, probably partly due to the fact that Flash was practicing for that style the entire week (with Effort, no less). It's not some "manly commendable decision," JD clearly did the builds he thought gave him the best chance to win. It is commendable because it shows that Jaedong hasn't submitted to this mentality of "I can't beat Flash in a long macro game so I'm going to try and gain a big advantage in the early game and take it from there". How many players do you think would be truly willing to win 3 straight up games against Flash in a Bo5 finals where both players have had plenty of time to prepare? Most players are going to do some kind of cheese in at least one or two of those games because the thought of overcoming Flash through sheer macro three times in one day is an incredibly daunting task. Why shouldn't someone be commended for stepping up to that task? Yes, Effort played well, but his games hardly inspired any confidence in his ability to be a worthy rival to Flash. I agree that it's fine that JD went for some economic builds. However, you seem to think that heavily economic builds are the only "real" way to play this game. They're not. Aggression is part of the game. Also how on earth can you beat someone in a BO5 and not even be "a worthy rival"? Also If game 3 by JD wasnt aggressive than I dont know what is
No, I'm not suggesting that beating players through superior late game control is the only "real" way to play it. My point is that being able to beat someone like Flash in the late game, without gaining a huge advantage in the early game, is the only way to prove yourself as a player who can truly challenge Flash on a consistent basis.
Effort played better than Flash in the OSL finals, but I just don't see his victory holding a big significance in the long run. Flash is still a much better player than Effort. On the other hand, despite getting owned by Flash today, Jaedong is still a much more worthy rival for Flash than Effort.
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On May 20 2010 22:02 Kyo Yuy wrote:
I'm wondering how people will react if Flash loses to Effort and then beats Jaedong 3-0.
Least likely scenario, but what if it happens?
There will be riots everywhere... >_>
AHAHAHAHAHA
Me and my big mouth.
(I wrote this in the Hana Daetoo MSL Semifinal B winner interview thread. I seriously did not expect it to happen. Looks like I jinxed myself)
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On May 29 2010 21:19 Kyo Yuy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2010 22:02 Kyo Yuy wrote:
I'm wondering how people will react if Flash loses to Effort and then beats Jaedong 3-0.
Least likely scenario, but what if it happens?
There will be riots everywhere... >_> AHAHAHAHAHA Me and my big mouth. (I wrote this in the Hana Daetoo MSL Semifinal B winner interview thread. I seriously did not expect it to happen. Looks like I jinxed myself)
Wow, that is a really impressive call!
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I was to depressed about missing the MSL party to watch live, but I was not expecting these results at all!
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On May 29 2010 21:11 DarkMatter_ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 20:53 7mk wrote:On May 29 2010 20:24 DarkMatter_ wrote:On May 29 2010 20:05 Hot_Bid wrote:On May 29 2010 20:00 DarkMatter_ wrote:On May 29 2010 19:46 538 wrote:On May 29 2010 19:41 jonich0n wrote:
This title is Flash's. Yes, he just lost OSL to EffOrt, but he lost because EffOrt played like a newbie. The complete randomness of EffOrt's play caused Flash to lose, not Flash slumping or burning out. Flash has to be insanely upset at this loss to a much inferior player. I believe he will bring everything he has to the MSL finals, and even Jaedong will be hard pressed to stand up to that. Don't pull an Idra to take away Effort's achievement. Effort outplayed Flash on that day, easy as that, JD today didnt. Pretty much. It's commendable that Jaedong tried to beat Flash at his own game (late game macro-oriented games) rather than relying on cheese (well except for game 3 but that was more of a reaction to Flash's 14CC) but It's disappointing that there was no early aggression from Jaedong. One of Jaedong's distinguishing quality is that even when going for a macro-oriented build, he still finds a way to get in his opponent's face with some kind of early harass or pressure, even if it's just with his initial set of lings. But today, his play seemed completely passive and it looked like he was on the back foot the whole time. It's very uncharacteristic of him and I found it hugely disappointing. I truly feel bad for Jaedong because he probably would've fared a lot better if he just played like he always does in any random proleague match. Instead he put so much hard work and effort trying to come up with more original and elaborate builds only to be punished for it. JD went 2 defiler mounds and an earlier 4th in game 1, yes thats kind of new. he went standard in game 2, 3H before pool is not innovative vs flash anymore. in game 3 hydra break is hardly creative. JD made a calculated choice not to play aggressively, probably partly due to the fact that Flash was practicing for that style the entire week (with Effort, no less). It's not some "manly commendable decision," JD clearly did the builds he thought gave him the best chance to win. It is commendable because it shows that Jaedong hasn't submitted to this mentality of "I can't beat Flash in a long macro game so I'm going to try and gain a big advantage in the early game and take it from there". How many players do you think would be truly willing to win 3 straight up games against Flash in a Bo5 finals where both players have had plenty of time to prepare? Most players are going to do some kind of cheese in at least one or two of those games because the thought of overcoming Flash through sheer macro three times in one day is an incredibly daunting task. Why shouldn't someone be commended for stepping up to that task? Yes, Effort played well, but his games hardly inspired any confidence in his ability to be a worthy rival to Flash. I agree that it's fine that JD went for some economic builds. However, you seem to think that heavily economic builds are the only "real" way to play this game. They're not. Aggression is part of the game. Also how on earth can you beat someone in a BO5 and not even be "a worthy rival"? Also If game 3 by JD wasnt aggressive than I dont know what is No, I'm not suggesting that beating players through superior late game control is the only "real" way to play it. My point is that being able to beat someone like Flash in the late game, without gaining a huge advantage in the early game, is the only way to prove yourself as a player who can truly challenge Flash on a consistent basis. Effort played better than Flash in the OSL finals, but I just don't see his victory holding a big significance in the long run. Flash is still a much better player than Effort. On the other hand, despite getting owned by Flash today, Jaedong is still a much more worthy rival for Flash than Effort.
If flash didnt consider effort a challenge then he wouldn't keep on practising with him.
Late game management is a huge strength of flash, it's only natural that the chance of beating him at that stage is very hard without any advantage, but if you have other strengths that make up for that you're still gonna be able to win games against that person a decent amount.
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Can we get it straight that Effort did not cheese Flash in any of the games? All of his wins was in response to Flash's mistakes. Game 3 was a careless push that got his marines surrounded. Game 4 was a 9pool and then a response to FLASH FAILED CHEESE, and game 5 was a 9 pool transition to all ling after he scouted Flash's 14cc. I'm not saying Flash isn't still great and he would probably beat him later, but that was simply Effort's day. Stop belittling it with all the Effort cheese cheese cheese, flash lost it, Effort didn't win it. Switching to all in lings when you know it's the winning choice and capitalizing on mistakes is part of the game. But today. Congrats Flash.
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Congratulations to Flash, Effort is my new favorite player.
Rofl that was sooooo awful.
Game one Jaedong makes 0 units for 30 minutes and dies without doing anything. Sure defilers are cool but if all you have with them is 10 lings one firebat kills you entirely. Shitty play by Jaedong.
Game two Jaedong makes mutas and instead of properly harrassing with them runs off after Flash's army even though he could have harrassed for like a minute at a defense-free base and still would have made it in time to def, also he didn't make enough Zerglings and having only 2 initial lurkers = really? Awful play by Jaedong.
Game three Jaedong futilely focuses a bunker repaired by 10 SCVs instead of picking them off one by one and then destroying the bunkers and winning the game. However, that's not all. He then sees 2 sieged tanks behind a terran wall and keeps trying to Hydra break instead of containing and double expanding and massing drones. Oh, but he does that! About 5 minutes too late and after wasting about 25 Hydras on Flash's choke and when he doesn't have an army. Then he drops off and dies.
The play by Jaedong was so god awful I've given up hope for him, say his time as an awesome player is done, and am now going to be cheering on Effort to lead the swarm.
So that I don't concentrate on solely Jaedong, good mindgames by Flash 14cc-ing 3 times in a row and nice job Jaedong not adapting, what happened to your gamesense and razor-sharp decisionmaking? Nothing was there, nothing.
What a letdown.
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On May 29 2010 21:00 snowdrift86 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 20:24 DarkMatter_ wrote:On May 29 2010 20:05 Hot_Bid wrote:On May 29 2010 20:00 DarkMatter_ wrote:On May 29 2010 19:46 538 wrote:On May 29 2010 19:41 jonich0n wrote:
This title is Flash's. Yes, he just lost OSL to EffOrt, but he lost because EffOrt played like a newbie. The complete randomness of EffOrt's play caused Flash to lose, not Flash slumping or burning out. Flash has to be insanely upset at this loss to a much inferior player. I believe he will bring everything he has to the MSL finals, and even Jaedong will be hard pressed to stand up to that. Don't pull an Idra to take away Effort's achievement. Effort outplayed Flash on that day, easy as that, JD today didnt. Pretty much. It's commendable that Jaedong tried to beat Flash at his own game (late game macro-oriented games) rather than relying on cheese (well except for game 3 but that was more of a reaction to Flash's 14CC) but It's disappointing that there was no early aggression from Jaedong. One of Jaedong's distinguishing quality is that even when going for a macro-oriented build, he still finds a way to get in his opponent's face with some kind of early harass or pressure, even if it's just with his initial set of lings. But today, his play seemed completely passive and it looked like he was on the back foot the whole time. It's very uncharacteristic of him and I found it hugely disappointing. I truly feel bad for Jaedong because he probably would've fared a lot better if he just played like he always does in any random proleague match. Instead he put so much hard work and effort trying to come up with more original and elaborate builds only to be punished for it. JD went 2 defiler mounds and an earlier 4th in game 1, yes thats kind of new. he went standard in game 2, 3H before pool is not innovative vs flash anymore. in game 3 hydra break is hardly creative. JD made a calculated choice not to play aggressively, probably partly due to the fact that Flash was practicing for that style the entire week (with Effort, no less). It's not some "manly commendable decision," JD clearly did the builds he thought gave him the best chance to win. It is commendable because it shows that Jaedong hasn't submitted to this mentality of "I can't beat Flash in a long macro game so I'm going to try and gain a big advantage in the early game and take it from there". How many players do you think would be truly willing to win 3 straight up games against Flash in a Bo5 finals where both players have had plenty of time to prepare? Most players are going to do some kind of cheese in at least one or two of those games because the thought of overcoming Flash through sheer macro three times in one day is an incredibly daunting task. Why shouldn't someone be commended for stepping up to that task? Yes, Effort played well, but his games hardly inspired any confidence in his ability to be a worthy rival to Flash. This is basically a glorified version of the "Effort sucks/Zerg cheese" argument. You can't play standard against Flash, especially when he isn't playing standard himself. And JD's blind 3 hatch before pool was fairly cheesy itself, which is why he wasn't in such a bad position in that game.
You're missing my point. I'm not condoning the idea of always playing standard econ-based games against Flash, nor am I disapproving of Effort winning through early aggression.
I've already said before that I think Effort reacted and adapted perfectly. He made the right choices. However, I can't help but feel that Effort was forced into a play style that would be beneficial to him. Game 3 was the one game where Effort created the opportunity himself by cleverly building an expo that was close to Flash's base and suiciding a few lings to tempt Flash into moving out with his marines. It was an excellent one-time strategy that I don't expect will work again against Flash.
Now, imagine if Flash went for a more safe play style in games 4 and 5 that forced Effort to beat Flash through superior late game control, do you believe he would still be able to win?
Effort is not going to beat Flash every single time through some kind of early aggression. In order to be a worthy rival, he also has to prove that he's got what it takes to beat Flash in the late game (assuming he didn't get a significant advantage in the early game like he did in the proleague match). So far, I just don't see him being able to stand toe to toe with Flash in a macro-oriented game.
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On May 29 2010 20:16 StylishVODs wrote:
I like this style from flash. Early scout into adaption.
He adapted his build flawlessly after seeing how jaedong opened.
1. vs 2hatch -> fast ebay + early vessels into 2port dropships.
2. vs 3hatch -> fast valk and no turrets.
3. vs no gas 3hatch -> 2fact into bunkerdefense.
This was really flawless executiong from flash.
What made it even more amazing is that this new style of scouting early and making walls is also pretty safe from early preassure.
I disagree
I feel most of these are actually reactionary and prepared build. Especially game 3, see the hydras pull everything to defense.
One thing to note is flash researched seige very early, means he was probably thinking of doing some heavy defense, rather than going goll heavy like usually mech openings.
Fast valks and early vessels are considered non-standard build and are surely meant for playing mindgames. If he went his usual style JD could easily understand the timing when mnm will push out, when he will have weak defense/no vessels etc.
By risking these unorthodox builds, it would be harder to guess the timing and what he has without aggressive scouting
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On May 29 2010 21:33 Shikyo wrote:
However, that's not all. He then sees 2 sieged tanks behind a terran wall and keeps trying to Hydra break instead of containing and double expanding and massing drones.
I don't get why people think Zerg can "contain" Terran that already has Siege researched with Hydralisks. Seriously? He didn't even have Lair and was nowhere near Lurkers.
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really, Shikyo, you give up hope because of three games in one BO5?
after he destroyed everyone on the way to the finals, winning 9/10 games?
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On May 29 2010 21 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 29 2010 21 end_of_the_skype_highlighting begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 29 2010 21 end_of_the_skype_highlighting begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 29 2010 21 end_of_the_skype_highlighting:37 darktreb wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 21:33 Shikyo wrote:
However, that's not all. He then sees 2 sieged tanks behind a terran wall and keeps trying to Hydra break instead of containing and double expanding and massing drones. I don't get why people think Zerg can "contain" Terran that already has Siege researched with Hydralisks. Seriously? He didn't even have Lair and was nowhere near Lurkers.
Oh, you want to know? Terran had 2-3 siege tanks but only a handful of Goliaths. Had Jaedong, after his first push failed, massed pure drones and used his ~18 Hydras to contain Flash aka staying outside his base at a flanking distance, he could have powered drones a lot more freely. Essentially the exact same thing he tried to do later in the game, just with Flash having 1/4 the army.
This is pretty much the standard thing you do as a Zerg, and a fast or even relatively soon lair isn't necessary at all vs mech. You get some Hydras early on, then double expand and mass drones, when they push you start pure hydra off about 5 hatches you have by the time, and hopefully crush them. That's the normal thing you do, it's not like it's rocket science.
Oh, and you mentioned Lurkers? Try again.
On May 29 2010 21 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 29 2010 21 end_of_the_skype_highlighting:41 7mk wrote:
really, Shikyo, you give up hope because of three games in one BO5?
after he destroyed everyone on the way to the finals, winning 9/10 games?
What can you do about braincell destruction?
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choking on one day doesnt make jaedong an idiot
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This is the most depressing finals ever T_T Jaedong whyyyy
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On May 29 2010 21:41 7mk wrote:
really, Shikyo, you give up hope because of three games in one BO5?
after he destroyed everyone on the way to the finals, winning 9/10 games?
That's how Shikyo is, it's best not to try to convince him to change his mind.
I know a lot of people are hard on Jaedong about this, but I think Flash just made Jaedong look bad because Flash clearly had mind games planned for this series.
On May 29 2010 21:46 7mk wrote:
choking on one day doesnt make jaedong an idiot
I wouldn't really call it choking, Flash did practice with the OSL winner really hard and as Jaedong said, losing like that only makes him stronger (It's the same with Jaedong too, don't you think?).
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Free: If Jaedong loses it will be 3-0.
Despite the imba text he also predicted this!
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Poll: Most Disappointing Finals Ever?No (87) 71% Yes (36) 29% 123 total votes Your vote: Most Disappointing Finals Ever? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
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On May 29 2010 21:42 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 21:37 darktreb wrote:On May 29 2010 21:33 Shikyo wrote:
However, that's not all. He then sees 2 sieged tanks behind a terran wall and keeps trying to Hydra break instead of containing and double expanding and massing drones. I don't get why people think Zerg can "contain" Terran that already has Siege researched with Hydralisks. Seriously? He didn't even have Lair and was nowhere near Lurkers. Oh, you want to know? Terran had 2-3 siege tanks but only a handful of Goliaths. Had Jaedong, after his first push failed, massed pure drones and used his ~18 Hydras to contain Flash aka staying outside his base at a flanking distance, he could have powered drones a lot more freely. Essentially the exact same thing he tried to do later in the game, just with Flash having 1/4 the army. This is pretty much the standard thing you do as a Zerg, and a fast or even relatively soon lair isn't necessary at all vs mech. You get some Hydras early on, then double expand and mass drones, when they push you start pure hydra off about 5 hatches you have by the time, and hopefully crush them. That's the normal thing you do, it's not like it's rocket science. Oh, and you mentioned Lurkers? Try again. Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 21:41 7mk wrote:
really, Shikyo, you give up hope because of three games in one BO5?
after he destroyed everyone on the way to the finals, winning 9/10 games? What can you do about braincell destruction?
Yeah ok well you for sure knows better than Jaedong...
Ok btw did you know that the most usual play vs mech as zerg is Muta?
Bet you didn't
Oh and those tanks had 1-0 upgrade, he would just need to lift his rax and push slowly with his tanks, gg that mapcontrol is gone for jd
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On May 29 2010 21:56 Kyo Yuy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 21:41 7mk wrote:
really, Shikyo, you give up hope because of three games in one BO5?
after he destroyed everyone on the way to the finals, winning 9/10 games? That's how Shikyo is, it's best not to try to convince him to change his mind. I know a lot of people are hard on Jaedong about this, but I think Flash just made Jaedong look bad because Flash clearly had mind games planned for this series. Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 21:46 7mk wrote:
choking on one day doesnt make jaedong an idiot I wouldn't really call it choking, Flash did practice with the OSL winner really hard and as Jaedong said, losing like that only makes him stronger (It's the same with Jaedong too, don't you think?).
well JD still made some bad mistakes, but I dont wanna take anything away from flash, today he was gonna win this either way.
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EPT
