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Sadistx
Zimbabwe5568 Posts
On May 29 2010 23:04 StorrZerg wrote: really how was this good? calm vs kwanro was soo much better Hey don't make me drive all the way back over to VA, I know you're trolling me so bad right now. | ||
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r33k
Italy3402 Posts
On May 29 2010 22:41 eNyoron wrote: + Show Spoiler + Jaedong played uncharacteristically poorly. He was also determined to just out power flash with mutas, even when Flash's build was designed against it. Also, people aren't giving Effort the credit he really deserves. If you count the regame as a win for Effort (he was definitely ahead), he's 5-2 against Flash this month (and undefeated otherwise). The proleague game was a long winded macro game with effort slowly deconstructing flash's mech build with superior tech switching, multitasking, unit control and map control. Game 1 (that was redone): Flash did a valk build that bordered on cheesey, got scouted, and Effort handled it perfectly. Game 3: Seeing a trend of 14ccs Effort cheeses and wins. This is his ONLY cheese win. Game 4: Effort is wary of a cheese build since Flash is 2-1, so he sends his ovie to the middle. Reads Flash like a book. Dominates. Game 5: Sees 14cc, transition from an econ heavy lair build into mass speedlings. Counters a cheese opening with the aggression that cheese opening is very weak to and wins the game. So two (arguably three) of those games are Effort countering Flash's cheese build. 1 is Effort cheesing, and 1 (arguably 2) Flash style macro games where Effort still pulls out ahead. Also, a lot of people are saying that Effort wouldn't beat Flash in standard macro games (like the 3 Flash just decimated Jaedong with). Well DUH. That's Flash's specialty. It's like saying Flash couldn't beat Effort if all the games were 1base bio against 2 hatch lurker (or something like that). Effort did not succeed where Jaedong failed because Flash was playing better in the MSL. Effort succeeded because he simply played the Bo5 better than Jaedong. 100% true, you saved me the time for writing this myself. I'm gonna add tho that JD played far worse than usual today, he most likely fell to the mind games but his multitasking was horrible. | ||
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12yearsofsc
Greece30 Posts
Flash promotes the cheesy eco terran builds (14cc or rax FE) and shows terran players how this builds can be safe than risky. Result: A large number of terrans follow this build this season and we have a lot of them qualifying. (They don't get to the finals because you need +skill also). Games until now show that Flash's build can be beaten only by exception by protoss and zerg. In other words 90% of the time if you fail to harass against terran you lose because of their ability to be stronger on same bases. If the maps continue to provide a safe 2nd terran expansion at the very start (going fast pool or double proxy barracks being the only counter and that also risky) then we are talking about a new terran era. Between same skill zerg, terran, protoss and with the same luck terran will prevail. Effort played much more skillfully than Flash in the finals only to get a close 3-2. If the skill was race reversed we should see an easy 3-0. Losing in the first assault terrans can bunker down and get a 2nd or even 3rd chance in the game. The other 2 races are so fragile that losing in the first assault results to instant loss. I won't expand to specific details about races but really i would like to see some 2 clear entrance bases or large openings on natural expansion | ||
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StorrZerg
United States13919 Posts
On May 29 2010 23:10 Sadistx wrote: Hey don't make me drive all the way back over to VA, I know you're trolling me so bad right now. well fuck imma drink more soja to make it all better | ||
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Ozarugold
2716 Posts
What I am disappointed in is that I was at Korea University but I COULD NOT MAKE IT IN TIME TO WATCH!!! | ||
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CROrens
Croatia1005 Posts
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Vesperia
Canada30 Posts
On May 29 2010 23:26 12yearsofsc wrote: Well the facts until now. Flash promotes the cheesy eco terran builds (14cc or rax FE) and shows terran players how this builds can be safe than risky. Result: A large number of terrans follow this build this season and we have a lot of them qualifying. (They don't get to the finals because you need +skill also). Games until now show that Flash's build can be beaten only by exception by protoss and zerg. In other words 90% of the time if you fail to harass against terran you lose because of their ability to be stronger on same bases. If the maps continue to provide a safe 2nd terran expansion at the very start (going fast pool or double proxy barracks being the only counter and that also risky) then we are talking about a new terran era. Between same skill zerg, terran, protoss and with the same luck terran will prevail. Effort played much more skillfully than Flash in the finals only to get a close 3-2. If the skill was race reversed we should see an easy 3-0. Losing in the first assault terrans can bunker down and get a 2nd or even 3rd chance in the game. The other 2 races are so fragile that losing in the first assault results to instant loss. I won't expand to specific details about races but really i would like to see some 2 clear entrance bases or large openings on natural expansion You sir, are the most idiotic person to post on this thread. That is a TRULY uneducated statement, you might as well go play 100 games with each race since I'm sure you've only played Protoss in your whole life. | ||
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CROrens
Croatia1005 Posts
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StylishVODs
Sweden5331 Posts
On May 29 2010 22:41 eNyoron wrote: If you count the regame as a win for Effort (he was definitely ahead), he's 5-2 against Flash this month (and undefeated otherwise). Flash lost his valkyrie because his monitor shut down, his monitor didn't shut down because he lost his valkyrie. Effort was 2base muta vs Flash 2base goliath+valk, Jesus, how many times must we explain this? Do we have to write a newspost about it or something? ... | ||
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Scaramanga
Australia8092 Posts
On May 29 2010 22:41 eNyoron wrote: Jaedong played uncharacteristically poorly. He was also determined to just out power flash with mutas, even when Flash's build was designed against it. Also, people aren't giving Effort the credit he really deserves. If you count the regame as a win for Effort (he was definitely ahead), he's 5-2 against Flash this month (and undefeated otherwise). The proleague game was a long winded macro game with effort slowly deconstructing flash's mech build with superior tech switching, multitasking, unit control and map control. Game 1 (that was redone): Flash did a valk build that bordered on cheesey, got scouted, and Effort handled it perfectly. Game 3: Seeing a trend of 14ccs Effort cheeses and wins. This is his ONLY cheese win. Game 4: Effort is wary of a cheese build since Flash is 2-1, so he sends his ovie to the middle. Reads Flash like a book. Dominates. Game 5: Sees 14cc, transition from an econ heavy lair build into mass speedlings. Counters a cheese opening with the aggression that cheese opening is very weak to and wins the game. So two (arguably three) of those games are Effort countering Flash's cheese build. 1 is Effort cheesing, and 1 (arguably 2) Flash style macro games where Effort still pulls out ahead. Also, a lot of people are saying that Effort wouldn't beat Flash in standard macro games (like the 3 Flash just decimated Jaedong with). Well DUH. That's Flash's specialty. It's like saying Flash couldn't beat Effort if all the games were 1base bio against 2 hatch lurker (or something like that). Effort did not succeed where Jaedong failed because Flash was playing better in the MSL. Effort succeeded because he simply played the Bo5 better than Jaedong. lol? is this a joke? | ||
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Athos
United States2484 Posts
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CROrens
Croatia1005 Posts
On May 29 2010 20:53 Mykill wrote: gahhh what epic finalsss okay i gotta watch them now  what was epic about them? | ||
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pyrogenetix
China5098 Posts
terrans: build up a big wall of 2 depots and 1 rax and collect enough tanks to move out comfortably. if an all-in is coming, add a bunker and put 10 scvs on the bunker constantly repairing it to make it indestructible. LO BEHOLD if protoss or zerg does anything but sit on their asses, cuz HEY THAT'S CHEESING AND NOT PLAYING STRAIGHT UP, then go on teamliquid and pussy whine about it. | ||
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beetlejuice
Turkey68 Posts
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SoMuchBetter
Australia10606 Posts
On May 29 2010 21:33 Shikyo wrote: Game three Jaedong futilely focuses a bunker repaired by 10 SCVs instead of picking them off one by one and then destroying the bunkers and winning the game. However, that's not all. He then sees 2 sieged tanks behind a terran wall and keeps trying to Hydra break instead of containing and double expanding and massing drones. Oh, but he does that! About 5 minutes too late and after wasting about 25 Hydras on Flash's choke and when he doesn't have an army. Then he drops off and dies. no. you can't double expand and mass drones after deciding to go all in with hydras. you either do tonnes of damage or you just flat out die a horrible death when terran pushes out. its such a bad move that you might as well just leave the game without even trying | ||
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hyst.eric.al
United States2332 Posts
great games by flash | ||
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okum
France5778 Posts
On May 30 2010 00:14 Athos wrote: I'm a jaedong fan and I really enjoyed that final. I thought Jaedongs 4 base opening was really really brilliant in game 1. He was just barely unable to defend that push but I love seeing a response to macro with macro. Yeah it's sad it didn't get to even 4 games, but the quality of play was so so high. Nice to see something other than flames and bitching being posted for a change | ||
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tobi9999
United States1966 Posts
It's kind of funny how Boxer beat yellow a long time ago with 3x bunker rush Shows how broodwar has changed. The finals wasn't really exciting at all. Nate was better (True Game 1 was a win due to flash not preparing against mutalisks properly) but game 3 was a completely solid win for Jaedong ( no way Flash was going to win with just a mineral only vs Jaedongs 5base , power outage only affected game 4) Game 4 though, would've ended with Jaedong winning either way as he predicted Flash would 8rax and countered it with overpool. And, for those people who say that this finals was a good one, look at how many pages there are =_= Plus it didn't help that Jaedong played pretty much right into the hands of Flash 3 games in a row (cmon man use 9pool! ) | ||
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lone_hydra
Canada1460 Posts
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dukethegold
Canada5645 Posts
First, I should state that I am speaking from the viewpoint of an audience, one whose knowledge of Starcraft is only at a fundamental level and therefore is unable to properly enjoy the "genius" behind cheesy builds, 14cc or mindgames. All I am is a viewer who watches starcraft for entertainment, the same as the particular demography that comprise of likely above 80% of the Korean e-sport audience. I am just a spectator. And from my view, this final sucks. It was a one side rape. There was no mass scale battle, no low eco micro play, no exchanges of early aggressions that transit into late game, there was no late game at all, no Rush Hour 3. Game one featured fantastic mindgame that 80% of us can't properly enjoy. Jaedong had no unit and neither player was properly microing their units. There was no aggression, just greedy passive play until Flash got enough units to A-move. Game two sucked. BO victory or whatever. Game three sucked even worse. Failed all in. Flash's defense wasn't even that spectacular. From a viewer's point of view. This final sucked. I am sorry, you guys may argue that Flash's build in game xxx was genius due to xxx or Jaedong's build in game xxx was brilliant and failed only because of xxx that was beyond of his control due to xxx. But here is the truth. This final REALLY REALLY SUCKED after all the hype and expectations. They are the world's two best players. There is no reason that a final between the two best players look like something that is a BO5 practice game between Bogus and S2. The recent Fantasy v.s. Calm proleague game, a.k.a Poor Man's Jaedong v.s. Flash, was much more exciting than this. Soo and Light produced a better game than this. The OSL final was hella a lot better than this due to the dramatic nature of 0-2 to 3-2. I am sad. | ||
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