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[MSL] Grand Final - Page 139

Forum Index > Brood War Tournaments
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JaimeR
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
148 Posts
May 29 2010 11:13 GMT
#2761
You know what the saddest thing is? This live report thread has only 138 pages... I'm pretty sure the OSL didn't even start the first game until page 138. What a big let-down.

Mista_Masta
Profile Joined January 2009
Netherlands557 Posts
May 29 2010 11:14 GMT
#2762
Flash shows he is a great bo5 player, including "losing the OSL finals on purpose to screw with Jaedongs mind" (j/k)
Wings
Profile Joined January 2010
United States999 Posts
May 29 2010 11:15 GMT
#2763
On May 29 2010 20:13 JaimeR wrote:
You know what the saddest thing is? This live report thread has only 138 pages... I'm pretty sure the OSL didn't even start the first game until page 138. What a big let-down.


True...

A lot of SCBW fans lost interest after Flash lost the OSL so horribly. It disgusted a lot of people... so the MSL didn't get that much interest. If Flash had won the OSL... I can tell you, this thread would have been 2x as long.
The probability of Kim Carrier getting all those predictions wrong is similar to the probability Flash loses a TvT. Kim Carrier MUST BE a genius. His only big mistake... STORK.
StylishVODs
Profile Joined December 2005
Sweden5331 Posts
May 29 2010 11:16 GMT
#2764
I like this style from flash. Early scout into adaption.

He adapted his build flawlessly after seeing how jaedong opened.
1. vs 2hatch -> fast ebay + early vessels into 2port dropships.
2. vs 3hatch -> fast valk and no turrets.
3. vs no gas 3hatch -> 2fact into bunkerdefense.

This was really flawless executiong from flash.

What made it even more amazing is that this new style of scouting early and making walls is also pretty safe from early preassure.
According to Reach, he is the fastest learner he has ever seen. He start bw only like 2/3 years ago. Infact, his bw history knowledge is so limited, he didn't even know what the map Guillotine was.
jonich0n
Profile Joined February 2009
United States1982 Posts
May 29 2010 11:17 GMT
#2765
On May 29 2010 20:16 StylishVODs wrote:
I like this style from flash. Early scout into adaption.

He adapted his build flawlessly after seeing how jaedong opened.
1. vs 2hatch -> fast ebay + early vessels into 2port dropships.
2. vs 3hatch -> fast valk and no turrets.
3. vs no gas 3hatch -> 2fact into bunkerdefense.

This was really flawless executiong from flash.

What made it even more amazing is that this new style of scouting early and making walls is also pretty safe from early preassure.

word, game 2 was mind-blowing for me.
(>'.')>
dybydx
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
Canada1764 Posts
May 29 2010 11:17 GMT
#2766
On May 29 2010 20:00 Archer_ wrote:
It's funny how with the OSL finals, it's all like Flash played soooooo bad, Effort is super lucky, but here it's all about how Flash played soooooo good, Jaedong was at 100% right?

err... yes effort was indeed lucky. u gotta be pretty retarded to say effort is a better player than JD or Flash.

i can't say JD was playing 100%, but Flash was definitely not relying on luck.
g1: JD did manage to trick Flash wasting money on turrets and managed to get defilers out in time. JD was ahead but Flash came back.
g2: JD's muta opening wasn't wrong. muta harass into 3rd base is normally safe play, but flash got the better of him.
g3: mass hyra IS the counter gols. good mind game from JD. but i think the commentator critically noted that "JD was still pumping drones so it wasnt all in". it would still have worked for JD, had it not been for the good scouting from flash.

overall, i wouldn't say JD was playing terrible because we did see 2 of his builds putting him ahead. i just felt flash was able to balance out his greedy macro build with good scouting.
...from the land of imba
StylishVODs
Profile Joined December 2005
Sweden5331 Posts
May 29 2010 11:18 GMT
#2767
On May 29 2010 20:15 Wings wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 29 2010 20:13 JaimeR wrote:
You know what the saddest thing is? This live report thread has only 138 pages... I'm pretty sure the OSL didn't even start the first game until page 138. What a big let-down.


True...

A lot of SCBW fans lost interest after Flash lost the OSL so horribly. It disgusted a lot of people... so the MSL didn't get that much interest. If Flash had won the OSL... I can tell you, this thread would have been 2x as long.


I think it has to do with timezones aswell. This was played at a different time, it didn't go to 5 games and there was no MSL failiure.

I'm actually thankful this thread didn't get 300 pages of shitty posts. (not all but many)
According to Reach, he is the fastest learner he has ever seen. He start bw only like 2/3 years ago. Infact, his bw history knowledge is so limited, he didn't even know what the map Guillotine was.
yomi
Profile Blog Joined June 2004
United States773 Posts
May 29 2010 11:18 GMT
#2768
On May 29 2010 19:59 Hot_Bid wrote:
Only one question remains...

+ Show Spoiler +
In his post game interview does Flash thank the reigning OSL champion for his helpful practice??


According to live translation he didn't. I was surprised by this.
SuperArc
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Austria7781 Posts
May 29 2010 11:18 GMT
#2769
On May 29 2010 20:16 StylishVODs wrote:
I like this style from flash. Early scout into adaption.

He adapted his build flawlessly after seeing how jaedong opened.
1. vs 2hatch -> fast ebay + early vessels into 2port dropships.
2. vs 3hatch -> fast valk and no turrets.
3. vs no gas 3hatch -> 2fact into bunkerdefense.

This was really flawless executiong from flash.

What made it even more amazing is that this new style of scouting early and making walls is also pretty safe from early preassure.


actually Flash was in a bad position in game 2, JD just mismicroed horribly and attacked at the wrong time.

day9 said JD would have been in a good position.
Snow - future of protoss! :) Nada = baller
Lebesgue
Profile Joined October 2008
4542 Posts
May 29 2010 11:20 GMT
#2770
I'm really looking forward to reading the interviews. Wonder what both players will say.
Emon_
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
3925 Posts
May 29 2010 11:20 GMT
#2771
On May 29 2010 20:13 JaimeR wrote:
You know what the saddest thing is? This live report thread has only 138 pages... I'm pretty sure the OSL didn't even start the first game until page 138. What a big let-down.


Think of it this way. A one-sided Bo5 that barely lasted an hour got 138pages! Holy sh*t, who are these people commentating?
"I know that human beings and fish can coexist peacefully" -GWB ||
purgerinho
Profile Joined June 2008
Croatia919 Posts
May 29 2010 11:24 GMT
#2772
does jaedong becoming savior after bisu?
SUMMARIZED (by DeMu): You CANNOT surprise a top level Protoss with a build
DarkMatter_
Profile Joined January 2010
Canada1774 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-29 11:25:25
May 29 2010 11:24 GMT
#2773
On May 29 2010 20:05 Hot_Bid wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 29 2010 20:00 DarkMatter_ wrote:
On May 29 2010 19:46 538 wrote:
On May 29 2010 19:41 jonich0n wrote:
This title is Flash's. Yes, he just lost OSL to EffOrt, but he lost because EffOrt played like a newbie. The complete randomness of EffOrt's play caused Flash to lose, not Flash slumping or burning out. Flash has to be insanely upset at this loss to a much inferior player. I believe he will bring everything he has to the MSL finals, and even Jaedong will be hard pressed to stand up to that.

Don't pull an Idra to take away Effort's achievement. Effort outplayed Flash on that day, easy as that, JD today didnt.

Pretty much. It's commendable that Jaedong tried to beat Flash at his own game (late game macro-oriented games) rather than relying on cheese (well except for game 3 but that was more of a reaction to Flash's 14CC) but

It's disappointing that there was no early aggression from Jaedong. One of Jaedong's distinguishing quality is that even when going for a macro-oriented build, he still finds a way to get in his opponent's face with some kind of early harass or pressure, even if it's just with his initial set of lings. But today, his play seemed completely passive and it looked like he was on the back foot the whole time. It's very uncharacteristic of him and I found it hugely disappointing. I truly feel bad for Jaedong because he probably would've fared a lot better if he just played like he always does in any random proleague match. Instead he put so much hard work and effort trying to come up with more original and elaborate builds only to be punished for it.

JD went 2 defiler mounds and an earlier 4th in game 1, yes thats kind of new. he went standard in game 2, 3H before pool is not innovative vs flash anymore. in game 3 hydra break is hardly creative.

JD made a calculated choice not to play aggressively, probably partly due to the fact that Flash was practicing for that style the entire week (with Effort, no less). It's not some "manly commendable decision," JD clearly did the builds he thought gave him the best chance to win.

It is commendable because it shows that Jaedong hasn't submitted to this mentality of "I can't beat Flash in a long macro game so I'm going to try and gain a big advantage in the early game and take it from there". How many players do you think would be truly willing to win 3 straight up games against Flash in a Bo5 finals where both players have had plenty of time to prepare? Most players are going to do some kind of cheese in at least one or two of those games because the thought of overcoming Flash through sheer macro three times in one day is an incredibly daunting task. Why shouldn't someone be commended for stepping up to that task?

Yes, Effort played well, but his games hardly inspired any confidence in his ability to be a worthy rival to Flash.
Lebesgue
Profile Joined October 2008
4542 Posts
May 29 2010 11:25 GMT
#2774
On May 29 2010 20:24 purgerinho wrote:
does jaedong becoming savior after bisu?


Jaedong will be fine. He suffered a 3:0 loss before in a final and he only became a better player. I'm sure it will only make him stronger and we will still see some great games from him.
space_yes
Profile Joined April 2010
United States548 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-29 11:27:10
May 29 2010 11:26 GMT
#2775
On May 29 2010 20:00 DarkMatter_ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 29 2010 19:46 538 wrote:
On May 29 2010 19:41 jonich0n wrote:
This title is Flash's. Yes, he just lost OSL to EffOrt, but he lost because EffOrt played like a newbie. The complete randomness of EffOrt's play caused Flash to lose, not Flash slumping or burning out. Flash has to be insanely upset at this loss to a much inferior player. I believe he will bring everything he has to the MSL finals, and even Jaedong will be hard pressed to stand up to that.

Don't pull an Idra to take away Effort's achievement. Effort outplayed Flash on that day, easy as that, JD today didnt.

Pretty much. It's commendable that Jaedong tried to beat Flash at his own game (late game macro-oriented games) rather than relying on cheese (well except for game 3 but that was more of a reaction to Flash's 14CC) but he was predictable and his adaptability was really poor compared to Effort who reacted perfectly to what Flash was doing.

It's disappointing that there was no early aggression from Jaedong. One of Jaedong's distinguishing quality is that even when going for a macro-oriented build, he still finds a way to get in his opponent's face with some kind of early harass or pressure, even if it's just with his initial set of lings. But today, his play seemed completely passive and it looked like he was on the back foot the whole time. It's very uncharacteristic of him and I found it hugely disappointing. I truly feel bad for Jaedong because he probably would've fared a lot better if he just played like he always does in any random proleague match. Instead he put so much hard work and effort trying to come up with more original and elaborate builds only to be punished for it.


Jaedong is known for coming up with sick builds in Bo5. You can't play like you do in a random proleague match to win a starleague title especially against a player like Flash. People said the same thing about Flash in last week's OSL but don't seem to understand Bo5 starleague matches are nothing like proleague.

Game 1 Flash's timing was just a little bit better; if JD hadn't thrown down two defiler dens he would have lost earlier without the quick defiler upgrades.

Game 2 I think came down to micro during the battle for the middle. If JD had taken out all of Flash's valks his muta would have been more effective against Flash's m/m group. Effective enough to buy another 5-10 seconds so that JD could coordinate a defense of his third with his lurkers. I'm still amazed Flash came out on top with his valks against the scourge/muta.

Game 3 JD just over-committed with that last hydra attack. If he had not lost so many hydra he would have been better able to delay Flash to try and secure his 3rd and 4th though I think even then he was slightly worse off. Overall I thought JD's hydra bust was genius given that Flash was expecting muta and didn't initially have any tanks. I was holding my breath when the bunker's hp was down to like 60. Extremely intense. That would have been game if that bunker had fallen.
StylishVODs
Profile Joined December 2005
Sweden5331 Posts
May 29 2010 11:26 GMT
#2776
On May 29 2010 20:18 SuperArc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 29 2010 20:16 StylishVODs wrote:
I like this style from flash. Early scout into adaption.

He adapted his build flawlessly after seeing how jaedong opened.
1. vs 2hatch -> fast ebay + early vessels into 2port dropships.
2. vs 3hatch -> fast valk and no turrets.
3. vs no gas 3hatch -> 2fact into bunkerdefense.

This was really flawless executiong from flash.

What made it even more amazing is that this new style of scouting early and making walls is also pretty safe from early preassure.


actually Flash was in a bad position in game 2, JD just mismicroed horribly and attacked at the wrong time.

day9 said JD would have been in a good position.

Well I'm saying that Flash was in equally good position.
That game had a good start with both players going for equally greedy builds and the winner was determined through decisions/micro/macro in the midgame.

JD was in a good position. Flash was in a good position.
But if I had to choose, I'd say Flash had a small advantage because generally marines+valk will beat muta+lings after equal openings.
According to Reach, he is the fastest learner he has ever seen. He start bw only like 2/3 years ago. Infact, his bw history knowledge is so limited, he didn't even know what the map Guillotine was.
7mk
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Germany10157 Posts
May 29 2010 11:28 GMT
#2777
On May 29 2010 20:25 Lebesgue wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 29 2010 20:24 purgerinho wrote:
does jaedong becoming savior after bisu?


Jaedong will be fine. He suffered a 3:0 loss before in a final and he only became a better player. I'm sure it will only make him stronger and we will still see some great games from him.


Also Jaedong already promised us in the post game interview that he wont slump
beep boop
StylishVODs
Profile Joined December 2005
Sweden5331 Posts
May 29 2010 11:29 GMT
#2778
I'm glad Jaedong didn't resort to early aggression in game 1 and 2.
This would have just made him look stupid because it wouldn't have worked vs lingtight walls.

Early preassure hydra almost worked, it was so close.
According to Reach, he is the fastest learner he has ever seen. He start bw only like 2/3 years ago. Infact, his bw history knowledge is so limited, he didn't even know what the map Guillotine was.
StylishVODs
Profile Joined December 2005
Sweden5331 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-29 11:30:19
May 29 2010 11:30 GMT
#2779
Flash and Jaedong almost can't slump now it seems.
Their mechanics are simply too good for them to get into a serious slump.
sry for doublepost.
According to Reach, he is the fastest learner he has ever seen. He start bw only like 2/3 years ago. Infact, his bw history knowledge is so limited, he didn't even know what the map Guillotine was.
KristianJS
Profile Joined October 2009
2107 Posts
May 29 2010 11:30 GMT
#2780
No mention of effort in interview but apparently Zero helped him loads. Cool.
You need to be 100% behind someone before you can stab them in the back
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