On May 29 2010 20:13 JaimeR wrote: You know what the saddest thing is? This live report thread has only 138 pages... I'm pretty sure the OSL didn't even start the first game until page 138. What a big let-down.
True...
A lot of SCBW fans lost interest after Flash lost the OSL so horribly. It disgusted a lot of people... so the MSL didn't get that much interest. If Flash had won the OSL... I can tell you, this thread would have been 2x as long.
I think it has to do with timezones aswell. This was played at a different time, it didn't go to 5 games and there was no MSL failiure.
I'm actually thankful this thread didn't get 300 pages of shitty posts. (not all but many)
hey man how else would people like kona get so many posts
On May 29 2010 20:16 StylishVODs wrote: I like this style from flash. Early scout into adaption.
He adapted his build flawlessly after seeing how jaedong opened. 1. vs 2hatch -> fast ebay + early vessels into 2port dropships. 2. vs 3hatch -> fast valk and no turrets. 3. vs no gas 3hatch -> 2fact into bunkerdefense.
This was really flawless executiong from flash.
What made it even more amazing is that this new style of scouting early and making walls is also pretty safe from early preassure.
actually Flash was in a bad position in game 2, JD just mismicroed horribly and attacked at the wrong time.
day9 said JD would have been in a good position.
Well I'm saying that Flash was in equally good position. That game had a good start with both players going for equally greedy builds and the winner was determined through decisions/micro/macro in the midgame.
JD was in a good position. Flash was in a good position. But if I had to choose, I'd say Flash had a small advantage because generally marines+valk will beat muta+lings after equal openings.
Yeah you can't snipe at the m/m ball as easily with muta if there are valks.
Ok I missed the games because for some reason I thought it was 18:00 KST, but anyways watching game 1, which was just put on Jon747, why didn't Flash make his CC as part of his wall off? Considering he didn't scout Jaedong's build like he did in the other games it would have been safer though slightly less economical to do so.
On May 29 2010 20:13 JaimeR wrote: You know what the saddest thing is? This live report thread has only 138 pages... I'm pretty sure the OSL didn't even start the first game until page 138. What a big let-down.
True...
A lot of SCBW fans lost interest after Flash lost the OSL so horribly. It disgusted a lot of people... so the MSL didn't get that much interest. If Flash had won the OSL... I can tell you, this thread would have been 2x as long.
True...
Killed my interest after Flash lost. Haven't been here for a week.
On May 29 2010 19:41 jonich0n wrote: This title is Flash's. Yes, he just lost OSL to EffOrt, but he lost because EffOrt played like a newbie. The complete randomness of EffOrt's play caused Flash to lose, not Flash slumping or burning out. Flash has to be insanely upset at this loss to a much inferior player. I believe he will bring everything he has to the MSL finals, and even Jaedong will be hard pressed to stand up to that.
Don't pull an Idra to take away Effort's achievement. Effort outplayed Flash on that day, easy as that, JD today didnt.
Pretty much. It's commendable that Jaedong tried to beat Flash at his own game (late game macro-oriented games) rather than relying on cheese (well except for game 3 but that was more of a reaction to Flash's 14CC) but he was predictable and his adaptability was really poor compared to Effort who reacted perfectly to what Flash was doing.
It's disappointing that there was no early aggression from Jaedong. One of Jaedong's distinguishing quality is that even when going for a macro-oriented build, he still finds a way to get in his opponent's face with some kind of early harass or pressure, even if it's just with his initial set of lings. But today, his play seemed completely passive and it looked like he was on the back foot the whole time. It's very uncharacteristic of him and I found it hugely disappointing. I truly feel bad for Jaedong because he probably would've fared a lot better if he just played like he always does in any random proleague match. Instead he put so much hard work and effort trying to come up with more original and elaborate builds only to be punished for it.
Jaedong is known for coming up with sick builds in Bo5. You can't play like you do in a random proleague match to win a starleague title especially against a player like Flash. People said the same thing about Flash in last week's OSL but don't seem to understand Bo5 starleague matches are nothing like proleague.
Game 1 Flash's timing was just a little bit better; if JD hadn't thrown down two defiler dens he would have lost earlier without the quick defiler upgrades.
Game 2 I think came down to micro during the battle for the middle. If JD had taken out all of Flash's valks his muta would have been more effective against Flash's m/m group. Effective enough to buy another 5-10 seconds so that JD could coordinate a defense of his third with his lurkers. I'm still amazed Flash came out on top with his valks against the scourge/muta.
Game 3 JD just over-committed with that last hydra attack. If he had not lost so many hydra he would have been better able to delay Flash to try and secure his 3rd and 4th though I think even then he was slightly worse off. Overall I thought JD's hydra bust was genius given that Flash was expecting muta and didn't initially have any tanks. I was holding my breath when the bunker's hp was down to like 60. Extremely intense. That would have been game if that bunker had fallen.
I agree completely. I'm not saying Jaedong was wrong to prepare special builds for the finals. I'm just saying that it's unfortunate that they didn't work out this particular time, whereas going for standard builds probably would've produced better results.
On May 29 2010 20:32 BlackMagister wrote: Ok I missed the games because for some reason I thought it was 18:00 KST, but anyways watching game 1, which was just put on Jon747, why didn't Flash make his CC as part of his wall off? Considering he didn't scout Jaedong's build like he did in the other games it would have been safer though slightly less economical to do so.
He took a risk, knowing that he could make a lingproof wall. He didn't think jaedong would open with a 4-5 pool the first set of the series. I think he predicted Jaedong would open 3hatch before pool, but that wasn't true either.
On May 29 2010 20:37 DarkMatter_ wrote: I agree completely. I'm not saying Jaedong was wrong to prepare special builds for the finals. I'm just saying that it's unfortunate that they didn't work out this particular time, whereas going for standard builds probably would've produced better results.
i dont think so. JD hasnt been able to beat flash with "standard play" for a while now. in fact, no player has favorable odds vs flash when playing standard. beating flash require advantage and that require some risk taking like 9 pool or hydra/lurk all-ins or the crazy zerg build that JD threw up in g1.
in g1 and g3 JD had clear advantage he was just unable to maintain it
Jaedong seriously needs to get better practice partners. Flash had help from the likes of Effort and ZerO whereas Jaedong got ideas from....Killer and NeeL...
On May 29 2010 20:50 DarkMatter_ wrote: Jaedong seriously needs to get better practice partners. Flash had help from the likes of Effort and ZerO whereas Jaedong got ideas from....Killer and NeeL...
He practices with Wemade. Wemade terrans are similar to woongjin zergs in quality.
On May 29 2010 19:41 jonich0n wrote: This title is Flash's. Yes, he just lost OSL to EffOrt, but he lost because EffOrt played like a newbie. The complete randomness of EffOrt's play caused Flash to lose, not Flash slumping or burning out. Flash has to be insanely upset at this loss to a much inferior player. I believe he will bring everything he has to the MSL finals, and even Jaedong will be hard pressed to stand up to that.
Don't pull an Idra to take away Effort's achievement. Effort outplayed Flash on that day, easy as that, JD today didnt.
Pretty much. It's commendable that Jaedong tried to beat Flash at his own game (late game macro-oriented games) rather than relying on cheese (well except for game 3 but that was more of a reaction to Flash's 14CC) but
It's disappointing that there was no early aggression from Jaedong. One of Jaedong's distinguishing quality is that even when going for a macro-oriented build, he still finds a way to get in his opponent's face with some kind of early harass or pressure, even if it's just with his initial set of lings. But today, his play seemed completely passive and it looked like he was on the back foot the whole time. It's very uncharacteristic of him and I found it hugely disappointing. I truly feel bad for Jaedong because he probably would've fared a lot better if he just played like he always does in any random proleague match. Instead he put so much hard work and effort trying to come up with more original and elaborate builds only to be punished for it.
JD went 2 defiler mounds and an earlier 4th in game 1, yes thats kind of new. he went standard in game 2, 3H before pool is not innovative vs flash anymore. in game 3 hydra break is hardly creative.
JD made a calculated choice not to play aggressively, probably partly due to the fact that Flash was practicing for that style the entire week (with Effort, no less). It's not some "manly commendable decision," JD clearly did the builds he thought gave him the best chance to win.
It is commendable because it shows that Jaedong hasn't submitted to this mentality of "I can't beat Flash in a long macro game so I'm going to try and gain a big advantage in the early game and take it from there". How many players do you think would be truly willing to win 3 straight up games against Flash in a Bo5 finals where both players have had plenty of time to prepare? Most players are going to do some kind of cheese in at least one or two of those games because the thought of overcoming Flash through sheer macro three times in one day is an incredibly daunting task. Why shouldn't someone be commended for stepping up to that task?
Yes, Effort played well, but his games hardly inspired any confidence in his ability to be a worthy rival to Flash.
I agree that it's fine that JD went for some economic builds. However, you seem to think that heavily economic builds are the only "real" way to play this game. They're not. Aggression is part of the game. Also how on earth can you beat someone in a BO5 and not even be "a worthy rival"? Also If game 3 by JD wasnt aggressive than I dont know what is
On May 29 2010 20:50 DarkMatter_ wrote: Jaedong seriously needs to get better practice partners. Flash had help from the likes of Effort and ZerO whereas Jaedong got ideas from....Killer and NeeL...
He practices with Wemade. Wemade terrans are similar to woongjin zergs in quality.
I don't think he practiced with them on this particular occasion. Pregame interview seems to suggest that he only practiced with his own teammates.
Though I'm a JD fan i have to say that Effort vs Flash was one of the most creative finals ever. In each game you could see well executed counters.
Some examples:
Monitor failure game: Epic drone scout, scourge with mutas on first attack to counter valkyries
1st game: Nicely planned combo of hydra/queens countered by nice scans and very timing push I have to say that Effort was unlucky in this game not of the scanned drop but mostly because he threw the parasites to check Flash's upgrades. The moment Effort pushed was the moment the grades finished. If Effort engaged little earlier (b4 grades) or little later (queens getting the high ground tanks) the result would be different. Perfect bad timing to push.
2st game: That was the most standard game. Flash's best game and Effort's worst with a lot of missmacro. (That's why i think that long games aren't always the best)
3rd game: The extra lings that were hidden made the difference. If it was a pure ling rush like most ppl say it is, it would have failed probably. Most zergs would have these lings staying outside Flash's base like they contain anything.
4th game: Effort's scouting the BBS was not lucky. He had ove and drone to scout in all games. Flash made a brilliant move to counter his eco loss with drops and bio switch but Effort countered it with great skill on 3 turns that most zerg would have lost to it. (Remember the damage Baby caused to Jaedong with one drop)
5th game: That's not a simple ling rush again. Effort faked a 2 hatch lair build and instead went all in lings. (Jaedong had the chance to do it on game 5 with better circumstances but went for an extra hatch). The lings surpassing the bunker was also very well executed. And no, don't compare the timing of Effort's lings with the one JD attacked with hydras. The wall wouldn't have been complete if JD played like Effort.
So Effort countered Flash more than Flash countered Effort. All besides game 2 (relatively long standard game with nothing to show) had something to offer. And how some ppl say that this MSL final was any good. It was bad because JD didn't have the balls to change any of his builds to provide a decent counter to Flash.
On May 29 2010 20:50 DarkMatter_ wrote: Jaedong seriously needs to get better practice partners. Flash had help from the likes of Effort and ZerO whereas Jaedong got ideas from....Killer and NeeL...
He practices with Wemade. Wemade terrans are similar to woongjin zergs in quality.
I don't think he practiced with them on this particular occasion. Pregame interview seems to suggest that he only practiced with his own teammates.
It worked for him before. Jaedong is known from the fact that he mainly practices with his team mates.
For the 1st game, I think jaedong thought the right way by going MACRO heavy opening, as flash was shaken by many early game builds from the OSL. He would naturally open safely rather than risky 14CC
But flash reverse psych JD to going 14cc for the first game. And scouted 14CC (dangerous too 14 RAX is very late).
I guess in the game flash won the mind games, you don't see people opening 3 hatch before pool or 14CC in PL as much but these are high stakes games where the conditions are different.
Good win by flash and Great play and hopefully someone can(is it possible) analyze what goes on between these 2 guys
On May 29 2010 19:41 jonich0n wrote: This title is Flash's. Yes, he just lost OSL to EffOrt, but he lost because EffOrt played like a newbie. The complete randomness of EffOrt's play caused Flash to lose, not Flash slumping or burning out. Flash has to be insanely upset at this loss to a much inferior player. I believe he will bring everything he has to the MSL finals, and even Jaedong will be hard pressed to stand up to that.
Don't pull an Idra to take away Effort's achievement. Effort outplayed Flash on that day, easy as that, JD today didnt.
Pretty much. It's commendable that Jaedong tried to beat Flash at his own game (late game macro-oriented games) rather than relying on cheese (well except for game 3 but that was more of a reaction to Flash's 14CC) but
It's disappointing that there was no early aggression from Jaedong. One of Jaedong's distinguishing quality is that even when going for a macro-oriented build, he still finds a way to get in his opponent's face with some kind of early harass or pressure, even if it's just with his initial set of lings. But today, his play seemed completely passive and it looked like he was on the back foot the whole time. It's very uncharacteristic of him and I found it hugely disappointing. I truly feel bad for Jaedong because he probably would've fared a lot better if he just played like he always does in any random proleague match. Instead he put so much hard work and effort trying to come up with more original and elaborate builds only to be punished for it.
JD went 2 defiler mounds and an earlier 4th in game 1, yes thats kind of new. he went standard in game 2, 3H before pool is not innovative vs flash anymore. in game 3 hydra break is hardly creative.
JD made a calculated choice not to play aggressively, probably partly due to the fact that Flash was practicing for that style the entire week (with Effort, no less). It's not some "manly commendable decision," JD clearly did the builds he thought gave him the best chance to win.
It is commendable because it shows that Jaedong hasn't submitted to this mentality of "I can't beat Flash in a long macro game so I'm going to try and gain a big advantage in the early game and take it from there". How many players do you think would be truly willing to win 3 straight up games against Flash in a Bo5 finals where both players have had plenty of time to prepare? Most players are going to do some kind of cheese in at least one or two of those games because the thought of overcoming Flash through sheer macro three times in one day is an incredibly daunting task. Why shouldn't someone be commended for stepping up to that task?
Yes, Effort played well, but his games hardly inspired any confidence in his ability to be a worthy rival to Flash.
This is basically a glorified version of the "Effort sucks/Zerg cheese" argument. You can't play standard against Flash, especially when he isn't playing standard himself. And JD's blind 3 hatch before pool was fairly cheesy itself, which is why he wasn't in such a bad position in that game.
On May 29 2010 20:50 DarkMatter_ wrote: Jaedong seriously needs to get better practice partners. Flash had help from the likes of Effort and ZerO whereas Jaedong got ideas from....Killer and NeeL...
He practices with Wemade. Wemade terrans are similar to woongjin zergs in quality.
I don't think he practiced with them on this particular occasion. Pregame interview seems to suggest that he only practiced with his own teammates.
It worked for him before. Jaedong is known from the fact that he mainly practices with his team mates.
No he isn't. It was made quite clear that he practiced with Leta, Light and Hwasin and other such terrans when prepping for Fantasy in the OSL finals.
Jaedong and Oz are known for spartan like training regimens but they still practice outside the team.
i think his point is that if effort 3x 9pool on flash, it wouldnt have been as gosu as JD doing the same thing. cause really, given effort's skill level, cheese is about the only realistic option hes got.
but as pointed out before, given the OSL, JD would naturally expect flash to have improved his early defence. indeed, flash sent out early scouts to ensure 9 pools weren't coming.
Also as kind of my ultimate statement, I'm just glad Flash didn't pull a Chojja and lose both finals in one season. (Chojja, Nada and Savior are the only guys to make dual finals, amusingly. Poor Chojja).
EPT
