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On May 23 2010 15:50 darktreb wrote:If you honestly think Flash played up to his standard in the last 3 games, you're both biased and wrong. This is NOT taking anything away from Effort. It's Flash's fault he didn't play up to his standard. Nobody's making excuses - Flash blew a 2-0 lead so there are no excuses. It's simply an observation that he didn't play like he has been capable of in the last 3 games, unless you're saying that a guy playing like that could go 80% for half a year and make 4 finals.
I think he played fine in the third game. He just got played.
In the fourth and fifth game, Flash definitely didn't play up to his current standards. He went back to his roots -- cheese and greed. He tried to do what was comfortable and then he got scouted and wrecked.
It was definitely Flash's series to win after game two.
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Just finished watching the vods. I got to say, based on the length of this thread I assumed this was the greatest OSL finals ever, and while it had some good games, like games 1 and 2, I have to say that I agree with the consensus that Flash just completely collapsed on himself. Still, I can't believe how Flash held off that Hydra rush in game 1, that was so unbelievably clutch.
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Gotta LOL at the people calling game 5 a BO advantage win. Since when does 12 hatch have an advantage against 13cc? What about if that 12 hatch gets an even later pool by going gas first?
Effort upgraded to a lair he never used. He continued to mine gas he never used. But that was the trick that made a ling all-in seem unlikely. Sneaky, sneaky.
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On May 23 2010 16:13 Athos wrote:
Just finished watching the vods. I got to say, based on the length of this thread I assumed this was the greatest OSL finals ever, and while it had some good games, like games 1 and 2, I have to say that I agree with the consensus that Flash just completely collapsed on himself. Still, I can't believe how Flash held off that Hydra rush in game 1, that was so unbelievably clutch.
It should please the Effort fanboys to hear me say that Flash didn't win game 1, but Effort lost it. What an awful series of midgame decisions by Effort in that game, off an opening that should have afforded him comfortable play. Amoving against sieged tanks with high ground? Really? Is that the best time to try to break the push?
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Definitely fixed. Rigged. Corrupted. Period.
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On May 23 2010 13:34 malathion wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2010 12:10 Archer_ wrote:
You guys are all ridiculous. All this Flash lost not Effort won stuff is just plain stupid. Effort won, just deal with it. Flash made bad choices and that's what made him lose. THAT'S STARCRAFT. PEOPLE LOSE GAMES THAT WAY. You guys don't think Effort made bad choices to lose game 1 and 2? There's also those people who keep talking about how they're not flash fans and it's just because both people didn't play to the fullest of their abilities (obviously talking about Flash), but I bet if Flash won 3-0 you guys wouldn't be saying anything. If you truly believed that, all the games should've been played out like the SPL game between them two recently. But you guys are obviously just dissappointed about the last 3 games. Anyways, GOOOO EFFORTT! This really isn't that difficult. There's more reasons someone could be disappointed with this series than being a Flash fanboy. The only way you would not see that is if you're an Effort fanboy.
your right, as a fan of starcraft I would have loved to see flash play a smarter last 3 games; not as a fan of either player.
On May 23 2010 12:36 double1185 wrote:
Honestly, I really think Flash really try to give up his title, or at least game 3. I have read all the wise and persuasive post about Flash and how hard it is to be a Terran and get to final. Its still doesnt make sense what Flash do in this match. For a professional player in any game that require high analytical skill, being able to read opponent mind is very very important, and actually Flash did it very well especially with finding the lurker trap twice in first 2 games. It is so normally for a good mind reader to recognize that his opponent is so nervous, or even scare of him (maybe im a noob but i really dont understand why in game 2 after pwn mm in his expo effort seem so confused and could not do much with his muta). At that state of mind, it is expected that his opponent will continue to make mistakes again and giving him a title with a not-so-hard 3-0, therefore a kind of safe play is very acceptable in term of his current advantage and the "mindset" game. A world class player can see through that quite easily, however, Flash seem to turn from a professional player into a pro amatuer (i mean in term of the psychology not his micro or macro control skill). He put himself in Effort's place and become very impatient then he move a bunch of fragile marines out without medic to the battlefield where he knows Efforts zerglings is waiting for him. You may argue that its just a single mistake of controlling, for me its more like a sign of a "confusion", seriously, I think that he dont want to win, at least that game.
Next to game 4, now Flash is really in the Effort position in the 2nd game, he playing risky (like Efforts 3 hatch pool), make a lot of mistakes (put barrack in the way of overlord scouting, not carefully block the ramp) and giving Effort another game. Flash game 5 is so like Flash after the "incident" in last year MSL, very passive and blunt performance.
Maybe its because he is just a 17 boy, or it is the miracle of sport (hope not another match-fixing). It is still kind of disappointed to me to see after all the excitement and expectation i have for a ZvT final. Anw still have high hope for epicness in MSL final, go JD.
this
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Effort won game 3,4,5 due to his excellent decision making upon the discovery of Flash's mistakes and the consequential exploitation of them.
I suppose KT fans expect Flash to make zero mistake in a game.
Effort won game 3 using lings as baits and proceeded with an excellent surround to kill the MnM group. Flash got too comfortable knowing that he's 2-0 and moved out too soon in a greedy attempt to kill the lings. Instead, the first wave of lings were bait and Flash's army was decimated by ling reinforcement. Muta follow up with excellent micro destroyed Flash.
Effort won game 4 with mind game. As his interview indicates, he knew that Flash would try cheese at this point in the game. He intentionally sent an overlord to the center, scouted the cheese, scouted the starport and beautifully defended his bases. Flash's cheese into drop tech rush did not pay off. GG.
The fifth game was Flash walking on needles with a 14cc on a two player map. Effort went 12 hatch into lair, indicating that he intended to fight Flash in a macro game. However, he scouted 14cc and instantly switched the mass ling build. The following was a battle of micro and Flash lost it. GG.
You boys must be blind to not give Effort credits for his victory. However, it can be said that while Flash's variation of strategies is what made him so dominant, it is also his downfall.
Btw, is this the first live report thread ever to reach 300+ pages?
Funny enough that the games weren't that long.
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im happy for CJ and effort.
nicely done, keeping that mental edge on flash
wow
i was banking on effort and boy did he deliver.
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On May 23 2010 16:38 malathion wrote:
It should please the Effort fanboys to hear me say that Flash didn't win game 1, but Effort lost it. What an awful series of midgame decisions by Effort in that game, off an opening that should have afforded him comfortable play. Amoving against sieged tanks with high ground? Really? Is that the best time to try to break the push?
Only if you do it as a timing push. Timed with Flash's 2-1 that is.
(One a less sarcastic note, maybe that's part of why Effort wanted to push then? He wanted to do it before the 2-1 came online, and it came a few seconds earlier than he expected?)
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On May 23 2010 17:23 EvanED wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2010 16:38 malathion wrote:
It should please the Effort fanboys to hear me say that Flash didn't win game 1, but Effort lost it. What an awful series of midgame decisions by Effort in that game, off an opening that should have afforded him comfortable play. Amoving against sieged tanks with high ground? Really? Is that the best time to try to break the push? Only if you do it as a timing push. Timed with Flash's 2-1 that is. (One a less sarcastic note, maybe that's part of why Effort wanted to push then? He wanted to do it before the 2-1 came online, and it came a few seconds earlier than he expected?)
Also, what was up with parasiting 3 times and only using broodling with your low energy queens after your hydra army has been flattened by high ground sieged tanks? Dumb dumb dumb. Disappointing series by both players.
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Wow amazing comeback by Effort, 3-0ing flash is amazing!
Though Flash messed up trying to cheese on game 3 and 14CCing on game 5.
Really good series anyway.
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What was the reasoning behind Effort taking the 9o'clock so soon in Game3?
Before he even scouted Flash he took it, which leaves me a little confused. If the idea was to have really quick mutas vs. Flash, he should have scouted him first. By that time he hadn't scouted a single base. Once flash had his first MnM force, maybe it would be difficult for Effort to defend both his main base and the 9 o'clock, considering the distance. And he probably would have to make more sunkens to defend both places or go for fast lurkers and put them on top of the ranmps.
It all worked out well once the marines got killed. Still seems like a dangerous play
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On May 23 2010 11:32 ghostnuke1234 wrote:
Question:
Was there something that Flash could have done in Game 5 to wall off the choke? Or was it impossible to wall off the choke in time with 14 cc because the ling rush came too fast for him to wall off?
I noticed Flash had 2 barracks further down in his base. Could he have built those barracks up front to steal the choke off? (I assume the weakness with putting barracks up front is that your units can be picked off 1 by 1 as they are produced)
I'm pretty sure Flash could have also built his 2 raxes + a supply depot or two above his expo at the choke in the first place... since he had already decided to 14 CC. If he then had another bunker behind this wall, there'd be no way at all for Effort to break through... kind of like how Effort walled himself off from vultures in G1. I have no clue why he didn't do so.
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I just watched the games, haven't read any comment yet.
I really thought I was neutral, but when those lings streamed into Flashs base in the 5th set, I stood up and stood there for like 3 minutes in total disbelief. To see Flash lose like this really really hurt me. That's not how it should have gone. Losing 2sets by a scouted BBS and a 14CC vs ling all-in, that is just so brutal. Flash really is a little bit of a tragic figure. Oh god, I just wanted to hug him after this game.
Nethertheless EffOrt is a deserved champion. He had excellent scouting throughout all sets and the execution in set 3-5 was brilliant. Amazing comeback.
Oh Flash, Great Barrier Reef is not a good match to BBS on  And 14CC in game 5 after you won the first two sets with Rax FE. Why do you do that, why It's just bad decision making. You are the better player, everybody could see that during the first two sets. Argx
On the other hand, Flash has been so succesful with his (semi)-cheeses lately, at one point someone would take advantage of it like EffOrt in set4.
God, I am still really confused, have to sort my thoughts a little.
Anyway gratz EffOrt, well done and great comeback.
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On May 23 2010 17:59 Emon_ wrote:
What was the reasoning behind Effort taking the 9o'clock so soon in Game3?
Probably to make Flash think he is going 3 hatch play. Because if you get far expo like that, you will always take your natural straight after.
Though I got a feeling effort was forced to 2 hatch because that unusual expansion was too close to Flash's base. If Flash had spawn on the right hand side, he probably would've taken his natural.
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On May 23 2010 08:04 OneOther wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2010 07:37 Hot_Bid wrote:On May 23 2010 06:22 Serpico wrote:On May 23 2010 06:13 tree.hugger wrote:On May 23 2010 06:03 Lightwip wrote:On May 23 2010 05:44 Serpico wrote:On May 23 2010 05:37 HnR)hT wrote:On May 23 2010 04:40 Serpico wrote:
The better player choking his guts out? Shame. While it's true that Effort choked pretty badly the first two games, he was able to come back in the next three. every dog has his day, flash will just have to make due with beating the dong. the first thing that came to mind in both of the 2 games that Flash won was "Jaedong could've pulled off a win here." If he doesn't do better than he did here, he has no chance. Especially since he's playing the Bo5 master. EffOrt got outplayed in the second game, but Jaedong would not have beaten Flash from the zerg position in game one. Not with his hydra tech deflected and his doom drop scouted. On May 23 2010 06:06 On_Slaught wrote:
Flash played so bad after the first 2 games. It was sad to watch. On May 23 2010 05:55 MuffinDude wrote:
Really? Flash? You played like shit game 3, 4, and 5. WTF flash. Really? You don't deserve the golden mouse if you choose to suck all the sudden after winning 2 games. Flash is a progamer, Jaedong is a progamer, and so is EffOrt. I was somewhat hoping that EffOrt winning would make all this "EffOrt is bad, EffOrt is not worthy of an OSL finals" nonsense go away, but apparently haters gotta hate, and will continue making ridiculous excuses, just as they did with the last MSL finals, and pretty much every Flash loss afterwords.  Flash did not lose that final,  EffOrt won it. There's a difference. I just dont think flash played at his peak for 5 games. He did for 2....then effort played great and flash's play diminished. I feel Flash has done well enough to prove he's the best usually, but he just didnt come to play those last 3 games. I give effort all the credit in the world for bringing his A game, but what the hell Flash. The problem is, Flash does these extremely greedy builds and takes risks to have a larger army later. When a player punishes him (like Effort did in games 3 and 5) people cry omg cheese! But when they don't, Flash comes out quite ahead in macro, and that's suddenly "Flash's standard" or "Flash playing at his peak." Too many Flash fans consider any loss to be "Flash playing badly" when his early risks don't pay off. It's NOT standard for Flash to 14cc and get to midgame ahead. That's why its flawed to say "oh Flash outplayed Effort in the more standard/real game 2" and not game 3 4 or 5. Just because Flash's risky stuff didn't work doesn't mean he suddenly is playing bad. Game 5, yes - Flash took a risk. Game 3, no way. 1 rax CC is the stamp of TvZ opening. Flash made a seemingly minor mistake of moving out a few seconds too early without medics but it ended up losing the game (and eventually the series) for him. Flash doesn't need to take huge risks. He just needs to play standard i.e. one rax expo and let his incredible abilities win him games.
Talking about game 3 though, let's focus on efforts pla a bit, imagine what would have happened if effort hadnt built those extra lings and built more drones like most people do with 2 hatch muta (since its already a low eco build) - flash would have moved out at the most perfect time and caught effort right off guard before the mutas pop.
Would any flash fans have criticised him for not having waited just a bit longer? No they would have praised him for his perfect timing.
However, effort played differently from what flash had expected, therefore effort and his mindgames deserve some credit and it's more than just "flash playing bad" or "flash playing standard".
Flash does risky things all the time, it's what keeps him at the top with his 80% win rate unlike a supersafe playing Bisu.
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Every game flash lost was less than 10 minutes, I think that says something
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Wow, just watched the games. Sooo anticlimactic. Being Kwanrolled twice and BBS scouted into nice play by effort once. Seriously the scans in game one and two game me chills. He had his peak too early, he's been destroying for too long other players start to catch on to what he's doing. I do hope he does get a revenge on JD.
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On May 23 2010 19:39 adamisuber wrote:
Every game flash lost was less than 10 minutes, I think that says something
Yes that says he got faked and punished for trying to cheese. Remember when Flash BBS cheesed Bisu on Monty Hall and BBS Stork in the the OSL Finals on Katrina?
Yes I remember! And thank you EffOrt for this payback. You totally deserve this win with excellent play.
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EPT
