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On May 23 2010 07:21 tree.hugger wrote:
Pages 189-200 in this thread are, in retrospect, absolutely hilarious.
Rofl you're right.
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LMFAO THIS SERIES WAS SPOILED FOR ME BECAUSE I LOST MY LIQUIBET LEAD BADGE BUT I DONT EVEN CARE. SO EPIC. VOTING FLASH, HOPING EFFORT FTW. GOOD JOB ALIEN ZERG
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Braavos36402 Posts
On May 23 2010 06:22 Serpico wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2010 06:13 tree.hugger wrote:On May 23 2010 06:03 Lightwip wrote:On May 23 2010 05:44 Serpico wrote:On May 23 2010 05:37 HnR)hT wrote:On May 23 2010 04:40 Serpico wrote:
The better player choking his guts out? Shame. While it's true that Effort choked pretty badly the first two games, he was able to come back in the next three. every dog has his day, flash will just have to make due with beating the dong. the first thing that came to mind in both of the 2 games that Flash won was "Jaedong could've pulled off a win here." If he doesn't do better than he did here, he has no chance. Especially since he's playing the Bo5 master. EffOrt got outplayed in the second game, but Jaedong would not have beaten Flash from the zerg position in game one. Not with his hydra tech deflected and his doom drop scouted. On May 23 2010 06:06 On_Slaught wrote:
Flash played so bad after the first 2 games. It was sad to watch. On May 23 2010 05:55 MuffinDude wrote:
Really? Flash? You played like shit game 3, 4, and 5. WTF flash. Really? You don't deserve the golden mouse if you choose to suck all the sudden after winning 2 games. Flash is a progamer, Jaedong is a progamer, and so is EffOrt. I was somewhat hoping that EffOrt winning would make all this "EffOrt is bad, EffOrt is not worthy of an OSL finals" nonsense go away, but apparently haters gotta hate, and will continue making ridiculous excuses, just as they did with the last MSL finals, and pretty much every Flash loss afterwords.  Flash did not lose that final,  EffOrt won it. There's a difference. I just dont think flash played at his peak for 5 games. He did for 2....then effort played great and flash's play diminished. I feel Flash has done well enough to prove he's the best usually, but he just didnt come to play those last 3 games. I give effort all the credit in the world for bringing his A game, but what the hell Flash.
The problem is, Flash does these extremely greedy builds and takes risks to have a larger army later. When a player punishes him (like Effort did in games 3 and 5) people cry omg cheese! But when they don't, Flash comes out quite ahead in macro, and that's suddenly "Flash's standard" or "Flash playing at his peak."
Too many Flash fans consider any loss to be "Flash playing badly" when his early risks don't pay off. It's NOT standard for Flash to 14cc and get to midgame ahead. That's why its flawed to say "oh Flash outplayed Effort in the more standard/real game 2" and not game 3 4 or 5. Just because Flash's risky stuff didn't work doesn't mean he suddenly is playing bad.
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Just finished watching the series, and wow, just WOW. Flash got punished for his greedy builds, and I'm glad effort went for early wins instead of trying to macro up and beat flash in the late game (like most other opponents do). Hopefully Flash will use these new skills to make Flash vs JD 100x more epic. GGs though!
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LOL im just glad i dont have to hear Flash nerds trying to annoint him super bonjwa anymore. Major props to Effort. Anyway looking foward to MSL Finals.
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On May 23 2010 07:37 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2010 06:22 Serpico wrote:On May 23 2010 06:13 tree.hugger wrote:On May 23 2010 06:03 Lightwip wrote:On May 23 2010 05:44 Serpico wrote:On May 23 2010 05:37 HnR)hT wrote:On May 23 2010 04:40 Serpico wrote:
The better player choking his guts out? Shame. While it's true that Effort choked pretty badly the first two games, he was able to come back in the next three. every dog has his day, flash will just have to make due with beating the dong. the first thing that came to mind in both of the 2 games that Flash won was "Jaedong could've pulled off a win here." If he doesn't do better than he did here, he has no chance. Especially since he's playing the Bo5 master. EffOrt got outplayed in the second game, but Jaedong would not have beaten Flash from the zerg position in game one. Not with his hydra tech deflected and his doom drop scouted. On May 23 2010 06:06 On_Slaught wrote:
Flash played so bad after the first 2 games. It was sad to watch. On May 23 2010 05:55 MuffinDude wrote:
Really? Flash? You played like shit game 3, 4, and 5. WTF flash. Really? You don't deserve the golden mouse if you choose to suck all the sudden after winning 2 games. Flash is a progamer, Jaedong is a progamer, and so is EffOrt. I was somewhat hoping that EffOrt winning would make all this "EffOrt is bad, EffOrt is not worthy of an OSL finals" nonsense go away, but apparently haters gotta hate, and will continue making ridiculous excuses, just as they did with the last MSL finals, and pretty much every Flash loss afterwords. Flash did not lose that final, EffOrt won it. There's a difference. I just dont think flash played at his peak for 5 games. He did for 2....then effort played great and flash's play diminished. I feel Flash has done well enough to prove he's the best usually, but he just didnt come to play those last 3 games. I give effort all the credit in the world for bringing his A game, but what the hell Flash. The problem is, Flash does these extremely greedy builds and takes risks to have a larger army later. When a player punishes him (like Effort did in games 3 and 5) people cry omg cheese! But when they don't, Flash comes out quite ahead in macro, and that's suddenly "Flash's standard" or "Flash playing at his peak." Too many Flash fans consider any loss to be "Flash playing badly" when his early risks don't pay off. It's NOT standard for Flash to 14cc and get to midgame ahead. That's why its flawed to say "oh Flash outplayed Effort in the more standard/real game 2" and not game 3 4 or 5. Just because Flash's risky stuff didn't work doesn't mean he suddenly is playing bad.
completely agree, Flash fanboys don't seem to grasp that flash has that massive mid-late game advantage because of gambles in the early game. He is just generally really good at making it past those gambles and the onwards to a macro victory.
I am extremely glad effort won this, he has been underappreciated lately, and while some retards will say "flash lost effort didn't win" I think we have to give credit where it's due and admit effort is as good as he actually is.
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omg games 3-5 just made me facepalm all the time lol. I cant believe flash played so dumb. EVERY TIME I ROOT FOR FLASH HE LOSES WTF
what sucks is that this is going to make JD vs flash that much less epic :\
oh well, effort played really good though. he's just so good at putting up with terran shenanigans.
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I think the difference is Flash didnt try to adjust or stay ahead of the curve. Kept doing the same thing a bit too much and became predictable.
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United States10774 Posts
On May 23 2010 07:37 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2010 06:22 Serpico wrote:On May 23 2010 06:13 tree.hugger wrote:On May 23 2010 06:03 Lightwip wrote:On May 23 2010 05:44 Serpico wrote:On May 23 2010 05:37 HnR)hT wrote:On May 23 2010 04:40 Serpico wrote:
The better player choking his guts out? Shame. While it's true that Effort choked pretty badly the first two games, he was able to come back in the next three. every dog has his day, flash will just have to make due with beating the dong. the first thing that came to mind in both of the 2 games that Flash won was "Jaedong could've pulled off a win here." If he doesn't do better than he did here, he has no chance. Especially since he's playing the Bo5 master. EffOrt got outplayed in the second game, but Jaedong would not have beaten Flash from the zerg position in game one. Not with his hydra tech deflected and his doom drop scouted. On May 23 2010 06:06 On_Slaught wrote:
Flash played so bad after the first 2 games. It was sad to watch. On May 23 2010 05:55 MuffinDude wrote:
Really? Flash? You played like shit game 3, 4, and 5. WTF flash. Really? You don't deserve the golden mouse if you choose to suck all the sudden after winning 2 games. Flash is a progamer, Jaedong is a progamer, and so is EffOrt. I was somewhat hoping that EffOrt winning would make all this "EffOrt is bad, EffOrt is not worthy of an OSL finals" nonsense go away, but apparently haters gotta hate, and will continue making ridiculous excuses, just as they did with the last MSL finals, and pretty much every Flash loss afterwords. Flash did not lose that final, EffOrt won it. There's a difference. I just dont think flash played at his peak for 5 games. He did for 2....then effort played great and flash's play diminished. I feel Flash has done well enough to prove he's the best usually, but he just didnt come to play those last 3 games. I give effort all the credit in the world for bringing his A game, but what the hell Flash. The problem is, Flash does these extremely greedy builds and takes risks to have a larger army later. When a player punishes him (like Effort did in games 3 and 5) people cry omg cheese! But when they don't, Flash comes out quite ahead in macro, and that's suddenly "Flash's standard" or "Flash playing at his peak." Too many Flash fans consider any loss to be "Flash playing badly" when his early risks don't pay off. It's NOT standard for Flash to 14cc and get to midgame ahead. That's why its flawed to say "oh Flash outplayed Effort in the more standard/real game 2" and not game 3 4 or 5. Just because Flash's risky stuff didn't work doesn't mean he suddenly is playing bad.
Game 5, yes - Flash took a risk. Game 3, no way. 1 rax CC is the stamp of TvZ opening. Flash made a seemingly minor mistake of moving out a few seconds too early without medics but it ended up losing the game (and eventually the series) for him. Flash doesn't need to take huge risks. He just needs to play standard i.e. one rax expo and let his incredible abilities win him games.
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On May 23 2010 08:04 OneOther wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2010 07:37 Hot_Bid wrote:On May 23 2010 06:22 Serpico wrote:On May 23 2010 06:13 tree.hugger wrote:On May 23 2010 06:03 Lightwip wrote:On May 23 2010 05:44 Serpico wrote:On May 23 2010 05:37 HnR)hT wrote:On May 23 2010 04:40 Serpico wrote:
The better player choking his guts out? Shame. While it's true that Effort choked pretty badly the first two games, he was able to come back in the next three. every dog has his day, flash will just have to make due with beating the dong. the first thing that came to mind in both of the 2 games that Flash won was "Jaedong could've pulled off a win here." If he doesn't do better than he did here, he has no chance. Especially since he's playing the Bo5 master. EffOrt got outplayed in the second game, but Jaedong would not have beaten Flash from the zerg position in game one. Not with his hydra tech deflected and his doom drop scouted. On May 23 2010 06:06 On_Slaught wrote:
Flash played so bad after the first 2 games. It was sad to watch. On May 23 2010 05:55 MuffinDude wrote:
Really? Flash? You played like shit game 3, 4, and 5. WTF flash. Really? You don't deserve the golden mouse if you choose to suck all the sudden after winning 2 games. Flash is a progamer, Jaedong is a progamer, and so is EffOrt. I was somewhat hoping that EffOrt winning would make all this "EffOrt is bad, EffOrt is not worthy of an OSL finals" nonsense go away, but apparently haters gotta hate, and will continue making ridiculous excuses, just as they did with the last MSL finals, and pretty much every Flash loss afterwords. Flash did not lose that final, EffOrt won it. There's a difference. I just dont think flash played at his peak for 5 games. He did for 2....then effort played great and flash's play diminished. I feel Flash has done well enough to prove he's the best usually, but he just didnt come to play those last 3 games. I give effort all the credit in the world for bringing his A game, but what the hell Flash. The problem is, Flash does these extremely greedy builds and takes risks to have a larger army later. When a player punishes him (like Effort did in games 3 and 5) people cry omg cheese! But when they don't, Flash comes out quite ahead in macro, and that's suddenly "Flash's standard" or "Flash playing at his peak." Too many Flash fans consider any loss to be "Flash playing badly" when his early risks don't pay off. It's NOT standard for Flash to 14cc and get to midgame ahead. That's why its flawed to say "oh Flash outplayed Effort in the more standard/real game 2" and not game 3 4 or 5. Just because Flash's risky stuff didn't work doesn't mean he suddenly is playing bad. Game 5, yes - Flash took a risk. Game 3, no way. 1 rax CC is the stamp of TvZ opening. Flash made a seemingly minor mistake of moving out a few seconds too early without medics but it ended up losing the game (and eventually the series) for him. Flash doesn't need to take huge risks. He just needs to play standard i.e. one rax expo and let his incredible abilities win him games.
Game 3 was all about flash falling for a fake 3 hatch build and effort sacrificing 5 lings to get flash to push out. Flash would have been in trouble even if his medics weren't so far out.
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Great series, surprised that Effort pulled out the win. Moving out too early on game 3 really cost Flash, too bad he didn't send an SCV first or just wait a while.
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United States10774 Posts
On May 23 2010 08:15 Fraidnot wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2010 08:04 OneOther wrote:On May 23 2010 07:37 Hot_Bid wrote:On May 23 2010 06:22 Serpico wrote:On May 23 2010 06:13 tree.hugger wrote:On May 23 2010 06:03 Lightwip wrote:On May 23 2010 05:44 Serpico wrote:On May 23 2010 05:37 HnR)hT wrote:On May 23 2010 04:40 Serpico wrote:
The better player choking his guts out? Shame. While it's true that Effort choked pretty badly the first two games, he was able to come back in the next three. every dog has his day, flash will just have to make due with beating the dong. the first thing that came to mind in both of the 2 games that Flash won was "Jaedong could've pulled off a win here." If he doesn't do better than he did here, he has no chance. Especially since he's playing the Bo5 master. EffOrt got outplayed in the second game, but Jaedong would not have beaten Flash from the zerg position in game one. Not with his hydra tech deflected and his doom drop scouted. On May 23 2010 06:06 On_Slaught wrote:
Flash played so bad after the first 2 games. It was sad to watch. On May 23 2010 05:55 MuffinDude wrote:
Really? Flash? You played like shit game 3, 4, and 5. WTF flash. Really? You don't deserve the golden mouse if you choose to suck all the sudden after winning 2 games. Flash is a progamer, Jaedong is a progamer, and so is EffOrt. I was somewhat hoping that EffOrt winning would make all this "EffOrt is bad, EffOrt is not worthy of an OSL finals" nonsense go away, but apparently haters gotta hate, and will continue making ridiculous excuses, just as they did with the last MSL finals, and pretty much every Flash loss afterwords. Flash did not lose that final, EffOrt won it. There's a difference. I just dont think flash played at his peak for 5 games. He did for 2....then effort played great and flash's play diminished. I feel Flash has done well enough to prove he's the best usually, but he just didnt come to play those last 3 games. I give effort all the credit in the world for bringing his A game, but what the hell Flash. The problem is, Flash does these extremely greedy builds and takes risks to have a larger army later. When a player punishes him (like Effort did in games 3 and 5) people cry omg cheese! But when they don't, Flash comes out quite ahead in macro, and that's suddenly "Flash's standard" or "Flash playing at his peak." Too many Flash fans consider any loss to be "Flash playing badly" when his early risks don't pay off. It's NOT standard for Flash to 14cc and get to midgame ahead. That's why its flawed to say "oh Flash outplayed Effort in the more standard/real game 2" and not game 3 4 or 5. Just because Flash's risky stuff didn't work doesn't mean he suddenly is playing bad. Game 5, yes - Flash took a risk. Game 3, no way. 1 rax CC is the stamp of TvZ opening. Flash made a seemingly minor mistake of moving out a few seconds too early without medics but it ended up losing the game (and eventually the series) for him. Flash doesn't need to take huge risks. He just needs to play standard i.e. one rax expo and let his incredible abilities win him games. Game 3 was all about flash falling for a fake 3 hatch build and effort sacrificing 5 lings to get flash to push out. Flash would have been in trouble even if his medics weren't so far out.
What? Flash didn't fall for a 3 hatch fake lol. You kidding me? He scouted the Lair timing and the expo at 9, why in the world would he think Effort is going 3 hatch? Flash wanted to hit nine o'clock with the first group of marines/meds (with firebats following) right before mutas pop. If you look at the timing, his marines would have been at nine just on time before mutas morph. He simply made a mistake - a huge one - of not waiting for medics and moving out in a formation.
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i clicked the results and had it spoiled ... stupid me ... cant wait to see it anyway.
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On May 23 2010 08:04 OneOther wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2010 07:37 Hot_Bid wrote:On May 23 2010 06:22 Serpico wrote:On May 23 2010 06:13 tree.hugger wrote:On May 23 2010 06:03 Lightwip wrote:On May 23 2010 05:44 Serpico wrote:On May 23 2010 05:37 HnR)hT wrote:On May 23 2010 04:40 Serpico wrote:
The better player choking his guts out? Shame. While it's true that Effort choked pretty badly the first two games, he was able to come back in the next three. every dog has his day, flash will just have to make due with beating the dong. the first thing that came to mind in both of the 2 games that Flash won was "Jaedong could've pulled off a win here." If he doesn't do better than he did here, he has no chance. Especially since he's playing the Bo5 master. EffOrt got outplayed in the second game, but Jaedong would not have beaten Flash from the zerg position in game one. Not with his hydra tech deflected and his doom drop scouted. On May 23 2010 06:06 On_Slaught wrote:
Flash played so bad after the first 2 games. It was sad to watch. On May 23 2010 05:55 MuffinDude wrote:
Really? Flash? You played like shit game 3, 4, and 5. WTF flash. Really? You don't deserve the golden mouse if you choose to suck all the sudden after winning 2 games. Flash is a progamer, Jaedong is a progamer, and so is EffOrt. I was somewhat hoping that EffOrt winning would make all this "EffOrt is bad, EffOrt is not worthy of an OSL finals" nonsense go away, but apparently haters gotta hate, and will continue making ridiculous excuses, just as they did with the last MSL finals, and pretty much every Flash loss afterwords. Flash did not lose that final, EffOrt won it. There's a difference. I just dont think flash played at his peak for 5 games. He did for 2....then effort played great and flash's play diminished. I feel Flash has done well enough to prove he's the best usually, but he just didnt come to play those last 3 games. I give effort all the credit in the world for bringing his A game, but what the hell Flash. The problem is, Flash does these extremely greedy builds and takes risks to have a larger army later. When a player punishes him (like Effort did in games 3 and 5) people cry omg cheese! But when they don't, Flash comes out quite ahead in macro, and that's suddenly "Flash's standard" or "Flash playing at his peak." Too many Flash fans consider any loss to be "Flash playing badly" when his early risks don't pay off. It's NOT standard for Flash to 14cc and get to midgame ahead. That's why its flawed to say "oh Flash outplayed Effort in the more standard/real game 2" and not game 3 4 or 5. Just because Flash's risky stuff didn't work doesn't mean he suddenly is playing bad. Game 5, yes - Flash took a risk. Game 3, no way. 1 rax CC is the stamp of TvZ opening. Flash made a seemingly minor mistake of moving out a few seconds too early without medics but it ended up losing the game (and eventually the series) for him. Flash doesn't need to take huge risks. He just needs to play standard i.e. one rax expo and let his incredible abilities win him games.
But he does need to take risks if he wants to keep his amazing streak. IIRC his main build against Kal was taking a fast 3rd (even faster than Kal's) which let him get a sizeable army for mid to late game, giving him more opportunities to do timing pushes and using his excellent macro and management to finish off his opponents as we have seen.
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On May 23 2010 07:37 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2010 06:22 Serpico wrote:On May 23 2010 06:13 tree.hugger wrote:On May 23 2010 06:03 Lightwip wrote:On May 23 2010 05:44 Serpico wrote:On May 23 2010 05:37 HnR)hT wrote:On May 23 2010 04:40 Serpico wrote:
The better player choking his guts out? Shame. While it's true that Effort choked pretty badly the first two games, he was able to come back in the next three. every dog has his day, flash will just have to make due with beating the dong. the first thing that came to mind in both of the 2 games that Flash won was "Jaedong could've pulled off a win here." If he doesn't do better than he did here, he has no chance. Especially since he's playing the Bo5 master. EffOrt got outplayed in the second game, but Jaedong would not have beaten Flash from the zerg position in game one. Not with his hydra tech deflected and his doom drop scouted. On May 23 2010 06:06 On_Slaught wrote:
Flash played so bad after the first 2 games. It was sad to watch. On May 23 2010 05:55 MuffinDude wrote:
Really? Flash? You played like shit game 3, 4, and 5. WTF flash. Really? You don't deserve the golden mouse if you choose to suck all the sudden after winning 2 games. Flash is a progamer, Jaedong is a progamer, and so is EffOrt. I was somewhat hoping that EffOrt winning would make all this "EffOrt is bad, EffOrt is not worthy of an OSL finals" nonsense go away, but apparently haters gotta hate, and will continue making ridiculous excuses, just as they did with the last MSL finals, and pretty much every Flash loss afterwords. Flash did not lose that final, EffOrt won it. There's a difference. I just dont think flash played at his peak for 5 games. He did for 2....then effort played great and flash's play diminished. I feel Flash has done well enough to prove he's the best usually, but he just didnt come to play those last 3 games. I give effort all the credit in the world for bringing his A game, but what the hell Flash. The problem is, Flash does these extremely greedy builds and takes risks to have a larger army later. When a player punishes him (like Effort did in games 3 and 5) people cry omg cheese! But when they don't, Flash comes out quite ahead in macro, and that's suddenly "Flash's standard" or "Flash playing at his peak." Too many Flash fans consider any loss to be "Flash playing badly" when his early risks don't pay off. It's NOT standard for Flash to 14cc and get to midgame ahead. That's why its flawed to say "oh Flash outplayed Effort in the more standard/real game 2" and not game 3 4 or 5. Just because Flash's risky stuff didn't work doesn't mean he suddenly is playing bad.
As a Flash fan I fully agree with this. Obviously when a player is at his peak a lot of fans are going to jump on his bandwagon but not fully understand what makes him a great player.
Flash has always been greedy as hell and always had a penchant for mixing things up in the Starleagues. This combination led to him getting knocked out of 8 straight Starleagues earlier than someone of his caliber should have.
Recently he got a lot better at controlling the balance between these things, got better as a player overall, and went on the most dominant run in progaming history. But it's all about risk taking - that doesn't make him stupid, it makes him great. Like Idra said, there's a reason why none of the "standard only Terrans" (Hwasin, Light, Sea, etc.) ever come close to sniffing a league.
Terran is a race where you have to be extremely good at playing standard. You can be a hyper-aggressive Zerg or cheesy Protoss and still make it as a pro. Not saying guys like Kwanro or Horang2 aren't good at all aspects of the game, but their style shines through. But even aggressive Terrans like Iris and Skyhigh aren't anywhere near what people like Kwanro or Horang2 do.
This causes tons of Terran pros to be very good but not "great". It's because you can only play solid up to a certain level before you also need to expand your game to all aspects to fight (good) Bisu, Jaedong, Stork, etc. in a best of 3 or best of 5.
Flash actually does understand this, perhaps better than any Terran. There's a reason why Flash and Fantasy are the only two Terran players to make a final in the past 2 1/2 years (since Mind). Fantasy's downfall is that while he's very good at mixing it up, his style is not sustainable because his fundamentals aren't at the level necessary to keep him in the S-class. But there's a reason why he made 2 OSL finals (already putting him in rare company) and other standard Terrans have barely sniffed a ro4 in any league.
But yeah, smart players know Flash takes calculated risks, and as long as you're willing to go toe-to-toe with him in both mind games and in mechanics, you have a chance of beating him as Effort showed us today. I'm not saying I agree with Flash's choice of builds in games 4 and 5 (I thought the game 4 BBS was kind of transparent given how game 3 ended ... I would have liked to see him BBS in game 3), but if they work he's a genius and if they fail he "should have played standard".
Truth be told, Flash never plays standard, at least by the bare bones definitions of standard as Terran. He just makes it look standard because he's so good at defense (making builds where he cuts corners look standard since he pulls them off every game), and because his macro is so fantastic that you almost automatically associate "He has an enormous late game army" with "He must have played standard!" because other than blatantly greedy builds that you can notice through build orders, standard builds are considered to be the ones that aim to get you late game strength.
However, I think anyone who's counting Flash out of the JD series is crazy (don't think people are counting him out ... but a lot of people aren't really giving him much of a chance). I agree that if he plays JD like he did against Effort he would lose every game except maybe game 1. But Flash has been through worse than losing a final, hell he lost a final last season and came back stronger than ever. I fully expect him to bring his real A game against the Dong, because Flash has always been a mentally strong guy (even if he's not on JD's level, but no one is). He's only 17 still....
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United States10774 Posts
On May 23 2010 08:28 kemoryan wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2010 08:04 OneOther wrote:On May 23 2010 07:37 Hot_Bid wrote:On May 23 2010 06:22 Serpico wrote:On May 23 2010 06:13 tree.hugger wrote:On May 23 2010 06:03 Lightwip wrote:On May 23 2010 05:44 Serpico wrote:On May 23 2010 05:37 HnR)hT wrote:On May 23 2010 04:40 Serpico wrote:
The better player choking his guts out? Shame. While it's true that Effort choked pretty badly the first two games, he was able to come back in the next three. every dog has his day, flash will just have to make due with beating the dong. the first thing that came to mind in both of the 2 games that Flash won was "Jaedong could've pulled off a win here." If he doesn't do better than he did here, he has no chance. Especially since he's playing the Bo5 master. EffOrt got outplayed in the second game, but Jaedong would not have beaten Flash from the zerg position in game one. Not with his hydra tech deflected and his doom drop scouted. On May 23 2010 06:06 On_Slaught wrote:
Flash played so bad after the first 2 games. It was sad to watch. On May 23 2010 05:55 MuffinDude wrote:
Really? Flash? You played like shit game 3, 4, and 5. WTF flash. Really? You don't deserve the golden mouse if you choose to suck all the sudden after winning 2 games. Flash is a progamer, Jaedong is a progamer, and so is EffOrt. I was somewhat hoping that EffOrt winning would make all this "EffOrt is bad, EffOrt is not worthy of an OSL finals" nonsense go away, but apparently haters gotta hate, and will continue making ridiculous excuses, just as they did with the last MSL finals, and pretty much every Flash loss afterwords. Flash did not lose that final, EffOrt won it. There's a difference. I just dont think flash played at his peak for 5 games. He did for 2....then effort played great and flash's play diminished. I feel Flash has done well enough to prove he's the best usually, but he just didnt come to play those last 3 games. I give effort all the credit in the world for bringing his A game, but what the hell Flash. The problem is, Flash does these extremely greedy builds and takes risks to have a larger army later. When a player punishes him (like Effort did in games 3 and 5) people cry omg cheese! But when they don't, Flash comes out quite ahead in macro, and that's suddenly "Flash's standard" or "Flash playing at his peak." Too many Flash fans consider any loss to be "Flash playing badly" when his early risks don't pay off. It's NOT standard for Flash to 14cc and get to midgame ahead. That's why its flawed to say "oh Flash outplayed Effort in the more standard/real game 2" and not game 3 4 or 5. Just because Flash's risky stuff didn't work doesn't mean he suddenly is playing bad. Game 5, yes - Flash took a risk. Game 3, no way. 1 rax CC is the stamp of TvZ opening. Flash made a seemingly minor mistake of moving out a few seconds too early without medics but it ended up losing the game (and eventually the series) for him. Flash doesn't need to take huge risks. He just needs to play standard i.e. one rax expo and let his incredible abilities win him games. But he does need to take risks if he wants to keep his amazing streak. IIRC his main build against Kal was taking a fast 3rd (even faster than Kal's) which let him get a sizeable army for mid to late game, giving him more opportunities to do timing pushes and using his excellent macro and management to finish off his opponents as we have seen.
Right, he certainly needs to take risks and mix-up his play to remain unpredictable. But I just don't know if it was the best time to take it in his situation last night.
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On May 23 2010 08:33 OneOther wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2010 08:28 kemoryan wrote:On May 23 2010 08:04 OneOther wrote:On May 23 2010 07:37 Hot_Bid wrote:On May 23 2010 06:22 Serpico wrote:On May 23 2010 06:13 tree.hugger wrote:On May 23 2010 06:03 Lightwip wrote:On May 23 2010 05:44 Serpico wrote:On May 23 2010 05:37 HnR)hT wrote:On May 23 2010 04:40 Serpico wrote:
The better player choking his guts out? Shame. While it's true that Effort choked pretty badly the first two games, he was able to come back in the next three. every dog has his day, flash will just have to make due with beating the dong. the first thing that came to mind in both of the 2 games that Flash won was "Jaedong could've pulled off a win here." If he doesn't do better than he did here, he has no chance. Especially since he's playing the Bo5 master. EffOrt got outplayed in the second game, but Jaedong would not have beaten Flash from the zerg position in game one. Not with his hydra tech deflected and his doom drop scouted. On May 23 2010 06:06 On_Slaught wrote:
Flash played so bad after the first 2 games. It was sad to watch. On May 23 2010 05:55 MuffinDude wrote:
Really? Flash? You played like shit game 3, 4, and 5. WTF flash. Really? You don't deserve the golden mouse if you choose to suck all the sudden after winning 2 games. Flash is a progamer, Jaedong is a progamer, and so is EffOrt. I was somewhat hoping that EffOrt winning would make all this "EffOrt is bad, EffOrt is not worthy of an OSL finals" nonsense go away, but apparently haters gotta hate, and will continue making ridiculous excuses, just as they did with the last MSL finals, and pretty much every Flash loss afterwords. Flash did not lose that final, EffOrt won it. There's a difference. I just dont think flash played at his peak for 5 games. He did for 2....then effort played great and flash's play diminished. I feel Flash has done well enough to prove he's the best usually, but he just didnt come to play those last 3 games. I give effort all the credit in the world for bringing his A game, but what the hell Flash. The problem is, Flash does these extremely greedy builds and takes risks to have a larger army later. When a player punishes him (like Effort did in games 3 and 5) people cry omg cheese! But when they don't, Flash comes out quite ahead in macro, and that's suddenly "Flash's standard" or "Flash playing at his peak." Too many Flash fans consider any loss to be "Flash playing badly" when his early risks don't pay off. It's NOT standard for Flash to 14cc and get to midgame ahead. That's why its flawed to say "oh Flash outplayed Effort in the more standard/real game 2" and not game 3 4 or 5. Just because Flash's risky stuff didn't work doesn't mean he suddenly is playing bad. Game 5, yes - Flash took a risk. Game 3, no way. 1 rax CC is the stamp of TvZ opening. Flash made a seemingly minor mistake of moving out a few seconds too early without medics but it ended up losing the game (and eventually the series) for him. Flash doesn't need to take huge risks. He just needs to play standard i.e. one rax expo and let his incredible abilities win him games. But he does need to take risks if he wants to keep his amazing streak. IIRC his main build against Kal was taking a fast 3rd (even faster than Kal's) which let him get a sizeable army for mid to late game, giving him more opportunities to do timing pushes and using his excellent macro and management to finish off his opponents as we have seen. Right, he certainly needs to take risks and mix-up his play to remain unpredictable. But I just don't know if it was the best time to take it in his situation last night.
You're right, there was no need for Flash to play risky. He was up 2 wins over effort, all he had to do was play standard and not do anything risky and let the game flow in his favor.
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On May 23 2010 08:33 OneOther wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2010 08:28 kemoryan wrote:On May 23 2010 08:04 OneOther wrote:On May 23 2010 07:37 Hot_Bid wrote:On May 23 2010 06:22 Serpico wrote:On May 23 2010 06:13 tree.hugger wrote:On May 23 2010 06:03 Lightwip wrote:On May 23 2010 05:44 Serpico wrote:On May 23 2010 05:37 HnR)hT wrote:On May 23 2010 04:40 Serpico wrote:
The better player choking his guts out? Shame. While it's true that Effort choked pretty badly the first two games, he was able to come back in the next three. every dog has his day, flash will just have to make due with beating the dong. the first thing that came to mind in both of the 2 games that Flash won was "Jaedong could've pulled off a win here." If he doesn't do better than he did here, he has no chance. Especially since he's playing the Bo5 master. EffOrt got outplayed in the second game, but Jaedong would not have beaten Flash from the zerg position in game one. Not with his hydra tech deflected and his doom drop scouted. On May 23 2010 06:06 On_Slaught wrote:
Flash played so bad after the first 2 games. It was sad to watch. On May 23 2010 05:55 MuffinDude wrote:
Really? Flash? You played like shit game 3, 4, and 5. WTF flash. Really? You don't deserve the golden mouse if you choose to suck all the sudden after winning 2 games. Flash is a progamer, Jaedong is a progamer, and so is EffOrt. I was somewhat hoping that EffOrt winning would make all this "EffOrt is bad, EffOrt is not worthy of an OSL finals" nonsense go away, but apparently haters gotta hate, and will continue making ridiculous excuses, just as they did with the last MSL finals, and pretty much every Flash loss afterwords. Flash did not lose that final, EffOrt won it. There's a difference. I just dont think flash played at his peak for 5 games. He did for 2....then effort played great and flash's play diminished. I feel Flash has done well enough to prove he's the best usually, but he just didnt come to play those last 3 games. I give effort all the credit in the world for bringing his A game, but what the hell Flash. The problem is, Flash does these extremely greedy builds and takes risks to have a larger army later. When a player punishes him (like Effort did in games 3 and 5) people cry omg cheese! But when they don't, Flash comes out quite ahead in macro, and that's suddenly "Flash's standard" or "Flash playing at his peak." Too many Flash fans consider any loss to be "Flash playing badly" when his early risks don't pay off. It's NOT standard for Flash to 14cc and get to midgame ahead. That's why its flawed to say "oh Flash outplayed Effort in the more standard/real game 2" and not game 3 4 or 5. Just because Flash's risky stuff didn't work doesn't mean he suddenly is playing bad. Game 5, yes - Flash took a risk. Game 3, no way. 1 rax CC is the stamp of TvZ opening. Flash made a seemingly minor mistake of moving out a few seconds too early without medics but it ended up losing the game (and eventually the series) for him. Flash doesn't need to take huge risks. He just needs to play standard i.e. one rax expo and let his incredible abilities win him games. But he does need to take risks if he wants to keep his amazing streak. IIRC his main build against Kal was taking a fast 3rd (even faster than Kal's) which let him get a sizeable army for mid to late game, giving him more opportunities to do timing pushes and using his excellent macro and management to finish off his opponents as we have seen. Right, he certainly needs to take risks and mix-up his play to remain unpredictable. But I just don't know if it was the best time to take it in his situation last night.
Hindsight is 20/20 but I agree, at the time I wasn't feeling too good about his builds in the last 2 games. The more that I think about it though, it wasn't as bad as it seemed at the time.
In his defense, he played game 3 completely standard and Effort simply seized a 1 second gotcha window that most Terrans leave exposed most games (every time I lose to something like that on Iccup I can't believe it, yet that hasn't prevented me from repeating the screwup because it's really easy to forget that can happen).
Game 4 was questionable, but what REALLY got me was how Flash didn't block his ramp with SCVs even though he knew the exact timing since his own scouting SCV followed the Zerglings back. He lost like 4 Marines when he could have lost none. This is why Effort was able to scout Flash's main with a single Ling and see the Starport. That mistake was indefensible and from that moment on I was very, very worried.
Game 5 he 14CC'd ... honestly 14CC is an underrated build on TL. The advantage it gives you for even mid game is ENORMOUS and for a player like Flash it's almost impossible to lose from that position. Maybe Flash felt like the only way you can get enough Marines to defend Match Point Muta harass is to take that chance. He probably assumed Effort was going to try to exploit the same timings that Hyun, Jaedong, and Zero did when they beat Flash on MP. Effort had a smart counter prepared and made Flash look silly.
But the thing about "Flash should have played standard on MP" is ... Flash has not looked good on MP! He has lost playing standard more than he's won on that map! If he wins game 5 by deflecting Mutas with more than the average number of Marines thanks to the 14CC and then rolls a long game, he gets praise for having the balls to do what it takes on a map that he's had trouble with in the past.
I'm confident Flash will learn a lot from his latest failure and come back better than ever. It'll be fun to see what that looks like - hopefully it starts as soon as next weekend.
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holy fucking shit. and my friends laughed at me for rooting for effort...
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YESSSSSSS Effort win! Was shaking so hard in game 2 as Effort got outplayed. Have to say that Effort's wins looked a bit like Kwanro's wins =/
BUT GJ EFFORT!
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EPT
