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My favorite statistic: Ever 2009 Non-Mirror Matches
TvZ: 14-18 (43.8%) [ Games ]
ZvP: 18-20 (47.4%) [ Games ]
PvT: 15-13 (53.6%) [ Games ]
Terran was so far in the hole in every MU even WITH Flash's games. Without....
TvZ: 5-17 (22.7%) [ Games ]
ZvP: 18-20 (47.4%) [ Games ]
PvT: 13-10 (56.5%) [ Games ]
How he managed to never face elimination in the entire tournament with stats like these I'll never know.
Edit: Let's look at Nate MSL too.
TvZ: 16-12 (57.1%) [ Games ]
ZvP: 8-9 (47.1%) [ Games ]
PvT: 8-9 (47.1%) [ Games ]
Without Flash
TvZ: 9-10 (47.4%) [ Games ]
ZvP: 8-9 (47.1%) [ Games ]
PvT: 8-6 (57.1%) [ Games ]
Combined OSL/MSL:
TvZ: 30-30 (50.0%) [ Games ]
ZvP: 26-29 (47.3%) [ Games ]
PvT: 23-22 (51.1%) [ Games ]
Combined OSL/MSL No Flash:
TvZ: 14-27 (34.1%) [ Games ]
ZvP: 26-29 (47.3%) [ Games ]
PvT: 21-16 (56.8%) [ Games ]
Small sample size but seems incredible to me.
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United States10774 Posts
congratulations flash, well-deserved title
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8748 Posts
On January 18 2010 00:35 revy wrote:
My favorite statistic: Ever 2009 Non-Mirror Matches
TvZ: 14-18 (43.8%) [ Games ]
ZvP: 18-20 (47.4%) [ Games ]
PvT: 15-13 (53.6%) [ Games ]
Terran was so far in the hole in every MU even WITH Flash's games. Without....
TvZ: 5-17 (22.7%) [ Games ]
ZvP: 18-20 (47.4%) [ Games ]
PvT: 13-10 (56.5%) [ Games ]
How he managed to never face elimination in the entire tournament with stats like these I'll never know.
I don't know what you think of the stats but it doesn't matter because you shouldn't think anything of the stats. There isn't enough data. The most you can say, I think, is that the Zerg players in this tournament were generally good head-to-head against the Terran players except Flash. But that isn't really saying much.
If there was a long history of racial imbalance, over hundreds of professional games, and Flash came out of nowhere and dominated everyone, then that would be something.
If all the commentators, analysts, coaches and players were saying that the maps were heavily imbalanced or that there was a major trend of racial imbalance (like pvz before bisu vs savior), then that would be something.
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People don't learn and will continue to vastly underrate JD in situations like this.
I'd bet JD LOVES being the underdog in this MU.
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Obviously I'm not saying there's a longterm statistical imbalance, longterm the MUs are like 51-53%. It is an admittedly small sample size but check out the edit with MSL too. That's still a small sample size but I think it shows pretty well how hard Terran have had it lately (Also an explanation for Flash being the only Terran semi-finalist. Flash, Kal, Movie, Kwanro, Jaedong, Calm, and Shine).
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I wish Fanaticist wasn't gone. He said the following after a discussion about who is the best player of Flash and Fantasy:
''Okay yo I am sick of arguing, you win. Fantasy fucked up too much in PL last season. Flash has golds. Hopefully this coming season we will see more of each player's skill, and we can discuss anew then (:''
I really, really want to discuss anew now. XD Boy, he would get crushed.
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On January 17 2010 12:52 Lebesgue wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2010 12:47 Piste wrote:god damn! Still 4hours and 15minutes before the games, propably I'll fall asleep and wake up when they are played already  I feel you. I am going to bed now hoping that I will get up in time to catch it live. It won't be the same watching VODs. For sure I won't be able to watch Flash vs Jaedong live so I should atl east catch this one... Argh I decided to stay up and drink huge amounts of coffee and hope for the best :D
GOD DAMNIT slept over the finals...
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I have to admit that Movie failed in game 1. His build order was extremely well thought after and he took an early game advantage. The problem is that he was not aggressive enough to use his unit and eco advantage to keep Flash from getting his 3rd and 4th. Once Flash get his 4th and start turtling style, it's game over. Flash's turtling defense was absolutely invincible. You could see Movie poking around with his army and observers, trying to find even a single hole in Flash's defense.
There wasn't one.
All there is left to do is suiciding armies and armies like Best did and eventually starve out and die to Flash's slow push. Hallucinating his arbiters was cute. I remember sitting there, thinking: "hey, hallucination would be pretty awesome" and Movie did exactly that. The thing is, even Flash's main had an invincible defense. In retrospect, perhaps a recall on 7 o'clock would have been a better move.
Game 2 was a lot closer. The key factor was that Movie did not manage to get a storm off on Flash's army. If he used a shuttle to ferry the templars around like Best did in the PL, he would have won the game. I still recommend this game due to Movie's iron reaver usage. It wasn't enough to pull him ahead though.
Game 3 was brilliant. It was epic.
Game 4, I dunno man. I doubt anybody other than Flash could have pulled that bunker rush off so successfully. And no, it wasn't cheese. It was designed to punish early expansion. My jaw dropped when Flash did it so brilliantly. The best response would have been to simply ditch the nat, rather than engaging against Flash in a micro war (bad idea) and expand later. After Movie's nat was destroyed, along with like 9 probes. It was gg.
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Just saw it, and honestly it was a terrible series. Movie didn't have the mechanics whatsoever to break Flash's tank lines. He looked like a lost child out there getting pummeled in every single engagement.
I don't know how people are on here saying Movie played a great series or that he'll surpass the other P's. He didn't show anything tonight that stood out in any way, shape, or form. These were the fking OSL Finals and that guy did not step his game up.
I especially liked how he suicided about 90 supply straight at Flash's sim city in Game 1 as soon as he got 200/200. Apparently, he's from the P school of 1a2a3a. Then he recalled two armies in Flash's base without any frontal diversion just to watch them get slaughtered.
Game 2 He tried for shuttle reaver/dt imba combo, got pretty much nothing out of it other than delaying mines, and then flailed about for a few more minutes before he got owned. Highlight of this game was watching Movie build 5 templars and manage to get off 0 storms in the fight. Pretty solid PvT there. I'm sure he's going to surpass Stork/Bisu any day now.
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Movie's build in game 1 was really smart. Stealing the gas forces Flash to go 1 Rax FE, and to follow that up with the proxy robo was clever. What was even more clever though was how he, when scouted, changed his plan and went double expo knowing that Flash would go into defensive mode. That's some high level strategy there.
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On January 18 2010 01:37 StorkHwaiting wrote:
Just saw it, and honestly it was a terrible series. Movie didn't have the mechanics whatsoever to break Flash's tank lines. He looked like a lost child out there getting pummeled in every single engagement.
I don't know how people are on here saying Movie played a great series or that he'll surpass the other P's. He didn't show anything tonight that stood out in any way, shape, or form. These were the fking OSL Finals and that guy did not step his game up at all.
I especially liked how he suicided about 90 supply straight at Flash's sim city in Game 1 as soon as he got 200/200. Apparently, he's from the P school of 1a2a3a. Then he recalled two armies in Flash's base without any frontal diversion just to watch them get slaughtered.
Game 2 He tried for shuttle reaver/dt imba combo, got pretty much nothing out of it other than delaying mines, and then flailed about for a few more minutes before he got owned. Highlight of this game was watching Movie build 5 templars and manage to get off 0 storms in the fight. Pretty solid PvT there. I'm sure he's going to surpass Stork/Bisu any day now.
Dude, in game 1, after Movie lost his timing window after he gained early game advantage. There was NOTHING he could do! Rather than blaming him suiciding units, you should analyze his early to mid game flaw instead. Movie's strategy was brilliant. If he was more aggressive or go carrier, he probably would have won. So that's where his problem was. But after Flash went into turtle mode, nobody could defeat Flash.
As for Frontal diversion. All of Flash's key choke points have been blocked by supply depots. What type of front diversion was he supposed to commit to? Shooting at the depots or suicide all of his spare units into Flash's main army? It looked foolish mainly because Flash was just too good. I doubt Bisu or Stork could have done better.
Do you remember Stork v.s. Flash? When Flash pushed toward Stork's base. Stork counterattacked against Flash's nat, but he was blocked by all the supply depot. If Flash kept couple tanks behind those depot, Flash wouldn't have to retreat his army and would have won the game.
This time, Flash kept tanks behind his nat's depot defense line. Movie tried several times to break through the nat defense line and also recall in the main. The tanks defending the depot made the key difference. I'd say that Flash defended so well because he learned from his game against Stork, not because Movie sucks.
As for game 2, it was Flash's game decision and micro rather than Movie's mistake in my opinion that sealed Movie's fate. It's like that Fantasy v.s. Jaedong game where Fantasy did the 12 tank push. The tanks sniped the defiler before it cast the swarm. That's exactly what Flash did. Could have Bisu/Stork done better? Maybe. Does it warrant criticism? Probably. But I don't think it was something that warrant degrading Movie for.
In my opinion, it was a good series. Movie is still a rookie. He's got a long road ahead of him.
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On January 18 2010 01:29 Holgerius wrote:
I wish Fanaticist wasn't gone. He said the following after a discussion about who is the best player of Flash and Fantasy:
''Okay yo I am sick of arguing, you win. Fantasy fucked up too much in PL last season. Flash has golds. Hopefully this coming season we will see more of each player's skill, and we can discuss anew then (:''
I really, really want to discuss anew now. XD Boy, he would get crushed.
But you had already won anyways ^^
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On January 18 2010 01:37 StorkHwaiting wrote:
Just saw it, and honestly it was a terrible series. Movie didn't have the mechanics whatsoever to break Flash's tank lines. He looked like a lost child out there getting pummeled in every single engagement.
I don't know how people are on here saying Movie played a great series or that he'll surpass the other P's. He didn't show anything tonight that stood out in any way, shape, or form. These were the fking OSL Finals and that guy did not step his game up.
I especially liked how he suicided about 90 supply straight at Flash's sim city in Game 1 as soon as he got 200/200. Apparently, he's from the P school of 1a2a3a. Then he recalled two armies in Flash's base without any frontal diversion just to watch them get slaughtered.
Game 2 He tried for shuttle reaver/dt imba combo, got pretty much nothing out of it other than delaying mines, and then flailed about for a few more minutes before he got owned. Highlight of this game was watching Movie build 5 templars and manage to get off 0 storms in the fight. Pretty solid PvT there. I'm sure he's going to surpass Stork/Bisu any day now.
I like how you didnt mention game 3 at all.
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On January 18 2010 01:48 7mk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2010 01:29 Holgerius wrote:
I wish Fanaticist wasn't gone. He said the following after a discussion about who is the best player of Flash and Fantasy:
''Okay yo I am sick of arguing, you win. Fantasy fucked up too much in PL last season. Flash has golds. Hopefully this coming season we will see more of each player's skill, and we can discuss anew then (:''
I really, really want to discuss anew now. XD Boy, he would get crushed. But you had already won anyways ^^
It's not just about winning; it's about humiliating. :D
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On January 17 2010 20:10 Puosu wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2010 20:09 Gao Xi wrote:On January 17 2010 20:08 Silentness wrote:On January 17 2010 20:07 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Rofl Flash about to make more in a week than I do in a year. 40k? I'm sorry Flash makes more money then any other 18 year old probably. More than any other 18 year old progamer yeah, probably more than any other progamer in the world. But nah he is not the only 18 year old making huge loads of money. ;p
I'm a few months older than Flash and I'm 17, so I'm pretty sure he isn't 18.
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On January 18 2010 01:03 On_Slaught wrote:
People don't learn and will continue to vastly underrate JD in situations like this.
I'd bet JD LOVES being the underdog in this MU.
Agreed.
Also with people saying flash should lose due to statistics doesn't really mean anything. Even if the map is bad for the race a lot of pro's say it comes down more to skill then to map balance. Jaedong for example in one of his interviews when the interviewer said "the maps dont' look good for zerg what do you think?" He responded with something in the lines of "It doesn't really matter as it comes down more to skill not the maps". That is not word for word but that is what he said.
A lot of people tend to over react I guess you could say to map balance. If Flash had lost to movie I bet a lot of the fanboys would have blamed the maps instead of admitting he got out played. Either way I am sad to hear that Movie lost was hoping for an upset so we could hear all the whiny threads but I guess I have to wait till MSL finals for that ^^.
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JIJIyO
Canada1957 Posts
Sigh...............This OSL happened I guess. Next time Movie. So fucking sad T_T Somebody hold me.
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On January 18 2010 01:03 On_Slaught wrote:
People don't learn and will continue to vastly underrate JD in situations like this.
I'd bet JD LOVES being the underdog in this MU.
This!
People just seem to forget how godly Jaedong can be
If JD brings his top game... dear god, Flash is gonna have a lot of problem
I say it's 50-50, can´t put anyone favorite here
Too bad bo5 is not enough for this match
Hoping for the best series ever!
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What timing window in Game 1? The entire reason Movie was able to get that many expos up was because Flash closed any window of attack. That's the point of turtling, All Movie did was gas steal -> proxy robo, which got scouted. So he does what 80% of all protoss do, take more expansions! The reason Movie got away with all of this so smoothly was because Flash chose to turtle and not take any risks. It's pretty easy to expand vs a turtler. If you can explain what was "brilliant" about Movie's opening and how any other P would have trouble doing this, feel free. It's nothing I haven't seen before.
You say there was nothing he could do once Flash turtled, and his entire plan was basically to sit around and macro while letting Flash turtle. So what exactly was brilliant about that strategy?
Game 2 warrants degrading for Movie. 5 temps 0 storm.
I don't get how anyone is comparing Movie to Stork/Bisu. Movie beat Shine. Hooray. That doesn't make him = Bisu/Stork or massive potential or anything. Stop hyping this guy. He's nowhere close to TaekBang. Yeah, a sub 50% winrate Toss and people are speculating whether Stork/Bisu MIGHT have done better? Are you guys nutty?
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EPT![[image loading]](http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/1415/99755010.jpg)
