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On January 17 2010 20:59 SimonB wrote:
I don't see how it can be assumed Stork wins game 3.
Part of the reason why Movie won was he went for such a strange time for a tech switch. I was thinking he was done when I saw it, but lucky for him, Flash didn't scout it at all and was caught completely by surprise by 5 carriers on his tanks.
I thought Movie played very well. His strategies would've crushed any other Terran, but Flash had some of the best defense I've ever seen and his mechanics overwhelmed Movie.
I think Stork is able to do the Arbiter/ground army break of Flash's line just as well if not better. After that it's not even necessarily a necessity for him to get Carriers, as opposed to just continually hammering Flash's line of defense and keeping him from ever really getting his 4th running.
Movie backed off because he was doing the switch. Even if Stork didn't do the switch I think he'd have won. Obviously it's no guarantee but still.
Games 1, 2, and 4 an in-form Stork (unless he reverts to pre-fantasy finals Stork) or Bisu (unless he reverts to retarded Bisu) would almost certainly have handled better.
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On January 17 2010 20:53 InFiNitY[pG] wrote:
Flash's TvZ is not unbeatable. A couple of Zs recently got into a good position against him early by not getting their third base denied (kwanro in semis game 4 for example). Pretty much any Z that manages to kill his first attempt to kill/deny the third with good muta/ling micro. Also he is not immune to muta micro, he just has less weak spots than other terrans without getting an insane amount of turrets (watch hyun vs flash on match point), so if a player like JD or effort can get into a comfortable midgame setting, they can beat him. Kwanro and Calm were just not good enough in their mid/lategame to do so and hyun only won because he was so far ahead thanks to the damage his mutas did, but JD's mid/lategame is so far above those guys that you really should not be so quick to say Z's aren't even close to breaking his tvz.
I don't think winning random games here and there because of a bit of good micro/ show of weakness from Flash can prove they can break his TvZ consistently. If Flash places turrets well and micros as usual, you won't beat him. I agree with you on game 4 of Kwanro vs Flash, that was excellent muta micro and JD would have won that game.
JD's mid/lategame is excellent yes, and Flash knows that. Flash can end games early very easily. I would say the only zerg close is Jaedong and even then I don't think he can take 3 games off Flash.
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Jaedong's gonna have a harder time then the last time he played against Flash in the OSL 'cause this 2nd major title has taken a lot of pressure off of Flash, allowing him to enter the MSL finals without much strain and anxiety, which imo will make his already unpredictable vZ play style even more dangerous. But Jaedong's almost never lost a bo5 though so I hope he'll manage to pull off a 3 - 2 win.
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Apparently making carriers is the only way to beat Flash.
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
On January 17 2010 21:12 Garnet wrote:
Apparently making carriers is the only way to beat Flash.
Which is quite ironic since he's touted to be completely anti-carrier. Anyways, I think Movie coulda rolled Flash quite easily after that huge push in game 3 without teching to carriers. But nevertheless, those carriers pretty much raped.
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Grats to Flash, he deserved this
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u gotta skate8152 Posts
On January 17 2010 21:12 Garnet wrote:
Apparently making carriers is the only way to beat Flash.
![[image loading]](http://i25.tinypic.com/25iambd.jpg)
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It still amazes me how Flash was so confident cheesing, against Protoss too. After losing in game 3, I was thinking Flash was going to play standard and do a two-base timing attack like he did against Stork, but not he did a bunker rush as if he knew it was going to work.
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On January 17 2010 21:28 FireGuyX wrote:
It still amazes me how Flash was so confident cheesing, against Protoss too. After losing in game 3, I was thinking Flash was going to play standard and do a two-base timing attack like he did against Stork, but not he did a bunker rush as if he knew it was going to work.
Didn't he scout Movie's fast nexus before he committed to the bunker rush? In that circumstance it's not cheesy at all.
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Stop calling any attempt to punish a Toss for 12 Nex cheese.
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On January 17 2010 21:35 Severedevil wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2010 21:28 FireGuyX wrote:
It still amazes me how Flash was so confident cheesing, against Protoss too. After losing in game 3, I was thinking Flash was going to play standard and do a two-base timing attack like he did against Stork, but not he did a bunker rush as if he knew it was going to work. Didn't he scout Movie's fast nexus before he committed to the bunker rush? In that circumstance it's not cheesy at all.
Oh that's what happened, I didn't see the 4th set, I had to read summery of the game, I'm trying to imagine what happened.
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why argue that much~ just wait till next week and u fans
can have a bite at each other
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On January 17 2010 21:28 KizZBG wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2010 21:12 Garnet wrote:
Apparently making carriers is the only way to beat Flash.
Rofl I can't stop laughing on that.
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On January 17 2010 21:37 FireGuyX wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2010 21:35 Severedevil wrote:On January 17 2010 21:28 FireGuyX wrote:
It still amazes me how Flash was so confident cheesing, against Protoss too. After losing in game 3, I was thinking Flash was going to play standard and do a two-base timing attack like he did against Stork, but not he did a bunker rush as if he knew it was going to work. Didn't he scout Movie's fast nexus before he committed to the bunker rush? In that circumstance it's not cheesy at all. Oh that's what happened, I didn't see the 4th set, I had to read summery of the game, I'm trying to imagine what happened.
why would you assume anything else? when would you ever bunker rush a protoss other than a 12-nex situation?
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On January 17 2010 21:04 Cambium wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2010 21:01 Roffles wrote:On January 17 2010 20:59 SimonB wrote:
I don't see how it can be assumed Stork wins game 3.
Part of the reason why Movie won was he went for such a strange time for a tech switch. I was thinking he was done when I saw it, but lucky for him, Flash didn't scout it at all and was caught completely by surprise by 5 carriers on his tanks.
I thought Movie played very well. His strategies would've crushed any other Terran, but Flash had some of the best defense I've ever seen and his mechanics overwhelmed Movie. I thought Movie played well, except his timing was off, especially in game 1. I thought he had plenty of chances to kill Flash, but he just never seized it. Credit Flash for playing well, but I think Movie blew it on HBR. Yea, movie *really* blew it on HBR. He started with such a huge advantage and never took actions to capitalize it. The map basically dictates an even split in late-game, and Terran > Protoss on even bases.
Movie had a 4~5 base vs. 2~3 for terran. . .
He should have kept his army and denied further expansions for Flash while getting upgrades for carriers, and replenishing his army with carriers as the regular army died down. Flash was sooo tank heavy!
Everything else was pretty much suicide. Flash even took the middle.
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
Movie could've blocked that Bunker Rush easily if he didn't mis-micro so badly
I mean goddamn what was that shit
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Dominican Republic825 Posts
 movie didnt make it
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On January 17 2010 21:35 Holgerius wrote:
Stop calling any attempt to punish a Toss for 12 Nex cheese.
Quoted for truth.
Terran will usually counter with a bunker and take the nexus out - bunker costs 150, 4 marines = 200 + 4 scvs and the mining time they lose = ~900minerals lost in the end. Thats a good trade for the original 400 that the nexus cost.
Now, if you try to defend the nexus with probes and dragoons and lose them along with the nexus. . . thats another story.
Flash vs. Jaedong will be epic in a week
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EPT
