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[OSL] EVER 2009 OSL Grand Final - Flash vs Movie - Page 184

Forum Index > Brood War Tournaments
Post a Reply
Prev 1 182 183 184 185 186 198 Next
EtherealDeath
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
United States8366 Posts
January 17 2010 11:43 GMT
#3661
lol, Flash is so good he lost 5 elo points for winning 3-1.
Noxide
Profile Joined July 2009
United States2870 Posts
January 17 2010 11:43 GMT
#3662
On January 17 2010 20:38 FireGuyX wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 17 2010 20:36 Noxide wrote:
On January 17 2010 20:30 FireGuyX wrote:
On January 17 2010 20:27 darktreb wrote:
On January 17 2010 20:24 Ricjames wrote:
Omg Flash is gonna destroy everyone in 2010 - I really don't see any protoss that could stand up against him right now and his TvZ and TvT are flawless


Honestly I actually thought Movie was quite close to winning that series, and if Stork or Bisu had been playing (and on these maps ... all 4 maps used were good for PvT) they would have had nearly if not more than 50% to win.

Similarly Flash's TvZ keeps getting chipped away at - his 3rd denial style has already been countered to some degree and with literally every great Zerg working on beating it it's only a matter of time. Obviously the JD MSL finals are the greatest test.

But yeah his TvT is absolutely immaculate and I can't see him being anything but a heavy favorite in every important TvT for the foreseeable future.



Yeah I've noticed that, I still think Terrans can do that type of harassment if they split the units. But it would be better if Terrans just send out their whole army to wipe out the zergs main.


His 3rd denial style has been countered by 2 hatch muta...which ends up losing every game against him because of his mnm control, econ advantage, and timing pushes, so not really countered. Zergs still aren't close to breaking his TvZ.


not even Jaedong?


He is the only one who can give Flash a run for his money, but still I don't think he can take 3 games off, so I'm hoping for a great msl finals and a 3-2 win for Flash. A 5th set would be really epic.
Flash ひなの戦争の王である || しかし、実際にはヤフーの ファンタジーサッカー、楽しいプレー私の週末を占めている
JohnColtrane
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Australia4813 Posts
January 17 2010 11:44 GMT
#3663
good job flash, it's been so long. congrats
HEY MEYT
Cambium
Profile Blog Joined June 2004
United States16368 Posts
January 17 2010 11:46 GMT
#3664
congrats flash!

now go take that MSL title of yours
When you want something, all the universe conspires in helping you to achieve it.
darktreb
Profile Joined May 2007
United States3019 Posts
January 17 2010 11:47 GMT
#3665
On January 17 2010 20:38 MountainDewJunkie wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 17 2010 20:27 darktreb wrote:
On January 17 2010 20:24 Ricjames wrote:
Omg Flash is gonna destroy everyone in 2010 - I really don't see any protoss that could stand up against him right now and his TvZ and TvT are flawless


Honestly I actually thought Movie was quite close to winning that series, and if Stork or Bisu had been playing (and on these maps ... all 4 maps used were good for PvT) they would have had nearly if not more than 50% to win.

1) 3-1 =/= "close" to winning series (individual games weren't that close either)
2) EOTS is the only one of these 4 maps that is really statistically P>T
3) Stork and Bisu weren't in the finals (couldn't beat (Z)Shine), so spare us your hypotheticals



I don't understand the acrimony in your post.

1) The individual games were "close" in the sense that Movie was ahead at some point in each game with the potential to be more ahead with better play. In PvT these days, if P is even after a certain point, P is actually ahead.

2) Statistically my ass. The sample size for each of these maps is statistically insignificant. Watch the TvPs that were played on these maps. Watch the caliber of the victor and the loser when T wins. Make a judgement based on more than stats. And it doesn't hurt that the progamers (such as Flash, Calm, and even Movie himself) felt this way too.

3) My hypothetical was simply that if Stork or Bisu had played these games with Movie's openings, they very well could have won. It was in response to the person who said he felt Flash's TvP was unbeatable, and I was giving an example as to how it wasn't.

Don't really understand why you're so bitter about this....
okum
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
France5779 Posts
January 17 2010 11:47 GMT
#3666
How large was the audience?
Flash fan before it was cool | Coiner of "jangbang"
JohnColtrane
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Australia4813 Posts
January 17 2010 11:50 GMT
#3667
On January 17 2010 20:47 okum wrote:
How large was the audience?


people were saying the games had to start 10min later because they were trying to figure out how to fit in an extra 2000 peoples
HEY MEYT
Iplaythings
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Denmark9110 Posts
January 17 2010 11:50 GMT
#3668
LOL Movie so bad that Flash sucks if he doesn't 3-0 him

+ Show Spoiler +
according to Elo atleast :<
In the woods, there lurks..
darktreb
Profile Joined May 2007
United States3019 Posts
January 17 2010 11:50 GMT
#3669
On January 17 2010 20:38 FireGuyX wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 17 2010 20:36 Noxide wrote:
On January 17 2010 20:30 FireGuyX wrote:
On January 17 2010 20:27 darktreb wrote:
On January 17 2010 20:24 Ricjames wrote:
Omg Flash is gonna destroy everyone in 2010 - I really don't see any protoss that could stand up against him right now and his TvZ and TvT are flawless


Honestly I actually thought Movie was quite close to winning that series, and if Stork or Bisu had been playing (and on these maps ... all 4 maps used were good for PvT) they would have had nearly if not more than 50% to win.

Similarly Flash's TvZ keeps getting chipped away at - his 3rd denial style has already been countered to some degree and with literally every great Zerg working on beating it it's only a matter of time. Obviously the JD MSL finals are the greatest test.

But yeah his TvT is absolutely immaculate and I can't see him being anything but a heavy favorite in every important TvT for the foreseeable future.



Yeah I've noticed that, I still think Terrans can do that type of harassment if they split the units. But it would be better if Terrans just send out their whole army to wipe out the zergs main.


His 3rd denial style has been countered by 2 hatch muta...which ends up losing every game against him because of his mnm control, econ advantage, and timing pushes, so not really countered. Zergs still aren't close to breaking his TvZ.


not even Jaedong?


I'm as big a Flash fan as there is, but I also watch him with a very critical eye. His TvZ dominance is still there, but it's not like it was two months ago, as now all the big names have had a go and have iterated on a potential counter style.

In a sense Jaedong was "unlucky" (perhaps unfortunate is the better choice of word here) to have played Flash "first". Flash crushed him then and should be the favorite here, but we can't conclude anything until after JD gets a full week of BO5 preparation.
Cpadolf
Profile Joined August 2009
Sweden1199 Posts
January 17 2010 11:51 GMT
#3670
On January 17 2010 20:27 hixhix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 17 2010 20:22 Cpadolf wrote:
lol, Flash's ELO is so out of whack that he lost 5 points by beating a top 20 ELO player 3-1 (gained 4 + 3 then lost 16 and finally gained 4).


That's how the system works. ELO is not a reward or alike, it measures the relative skill between players. Given their ELOs before the match, Flash is expected to win 3-0. If he only wins 3-1, the relative skill gap between them is too wide and needs to be adjusted.


Yes, I know. I was just pointing out how ridiculous it was that he has been able to reach such a level where this would happen.
Cambium
Profile Blog Joined June 2004
United States16368 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-01-17 11:52:11
January 17 2010 11:52 GMT
#3671
Three things really bothered me this series (even though I was cheering for Flash)

1). Game 1, failed attack at the wall, repeatedly attempting and failing recalls
2). Game 1, refusal to switch to carriers after being ahead in units and expansions (I actually thought Movie was going to ride his advantage to victory until Flash took his fourth)
3). Game 4, attacking the marines and scvs with the probes. In response to the rush, wouldn't it be better to just build probes from the natural and forfeit the expansion? I think the protoss might actually pull ahead given how the Terran had to pull SCVs and make the bunker.
When you want something, all the universe conspires in helping you to achieve it.
InFiNitY[pG]
Profile Blog Joined December 2002
Germany3474 Posts
January 17 2010 11:53 GMT
#3672
Flash's TvZ is not unbeatable. A couple of Zs recently got into a good position against him early by not getting their third base denied (kwanro in semis game 4 for example). Pretty much any Z that manages to kill his first attempt to kill/deny the third with good muta/ling micro. Also he is not immune to muta micro, he just has less weak spots than other terrans without getting an insane amount of turrets (watch hyun vs flash on match point), so if a player like JD or effort can get into a comfortable midgame setting, they can beat him. Kwanro and Calm were just not good enough in their mid/lategame to do so and hyun only won because he was so far ahead thanks to the damage his mutas did, but JD's mid/lategame is so far above those guys that you really should not be so quick to say Z's aren't even close to breaking his tvz.
"I just pressed stimpack, and somehow I won the battle" -Flash
Djabanete
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
United States2786 Posts
January 17 2010 11:55 GMT
#3673
Hell yes, Flash. HELL YES.

Wow.

HE FINALLY DID IT AGAIN!

May the BeSt man win.
darktreb
Profile Joined May 2007
United States3019 Posts
January 17 2010 11:55 GMT
#3674
On January 17 2010 20:52 Cambium wrote:
Three things really bothered me this series (even though I was cheering for Flash)

1). Game 1, failed attack at the wall, repeatedly attempting and failing recalls
2). Game 1, refusal to switch to carriers after being ahead in units and expansions (I actually thought Movie was going to ride his advantage to victory until Flash took his fourth)
3). Game 4, attacking the marines and scvs with the probes. In response to the rush, wouldn't it be better to just build probes from the natural and forfeit the expansion? I think the protoss might actually pull ahead given how the Terran had to pull SCVs and make the bunker.


Yep, Movie is a baller (my favorite P, it's a shame he had to go against my favorite player Flash here) but definitely could have played better.

If anything this series told me that it's a good thing Stork didn't make the finals (thanks Shine). Stork wins game 3 as well as at least one of the other three games, if not more. And then the last game is on Heartbreak again (with New Heartbreak really not being that much better than Old).

If Stork holds steady, the corpse formerly known as "Starleague Bisu" ever gets reanimated, and the maps remain like this, I do not like Flash's chances against either player in a BoX next season.
SimonB
Profile Joined September 2008
United States1088 Posts
January 17 2010 11:59 GMT
#3675
I don't see how it can be assumed Stork wins game 3.

Part of the reason why Movie won was he went for such a strange time for a tech switch. I was thinking he was done when I saw it, but lucky for him, Flash didn't scout it at all and was caught completely by surprise by 5 carriers on his tanks.

I thought Movie played very well. His strategies would've crushed any other Terran, but Flash had some of the best defense I've ever seen and his mechanics overwhelmed Movie.
Roffles *
Profile Blog Joined April 2007
Pitcairn19291 Posts
January 17 2010 12:01 GMT
#3676
On January 17 2010 20:59 SimonB wrote:
I don't see how it can be assumed Stork wins game 3.

Part of the reason why Movie won was he went for such a strange time for a tech switch. I was thinking he was done when I saw it, but lucky for him, Flash didn't scout it at all and was caught completely by surprise by 5 carriers on his tanks.

I thought Movie played very well. His strategies would've crushed any other Terran, but Flash had some of the best defense I've ever seen and his mechanics overwhelmed Movie.

I thought Movie played well, except his timing was off, especially in game 1. I thought he had plenty of chances to kill Flash, but he just never seized it.

Credit Flash for playing well, but I think Movie blew it on HBR.
God Bless
Xxio
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Canada5565 Posts
January 17 2010 12:01 GMT
#3677
Lets get this article all over Digg

CLICK
KTY
darktreb
Profile Joined May 2007
United States3019 Posts
January 17 2010 12:01 GMT
#3678
On January 17 2010 20:29 Zoler wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 17 2010 20:29 darktreb wrote:
On January 17 2010 20:22 okum wrote:
LEE YOUNG HO HWAITING!

This was so well deserved. After all these disappointments during the last 1.5 years, it finally happened. All original Flash fans unite!


Seriously ... for awhile I was no longer sure Flash had the "something extra" it takes to be a champion anymore.

It took much longer than expected but he's got his 2nd one, and I don't think a 3rd or even a 4th will take as long this time.


no true flash fan


Just a rational fan. I would never have stopped being a Flash fan but after 4 consecutive ugly exits from both leagues, how could you not wonder? He hadn't even played a BO5 in MSL or OSL since ForGG....

It was never a given that he'd improve, even with his young age. Flash needed to get smarter as a person more than he did as a player, and that's what happened and has triggered his success this year. But you can't count on people maturing in time - that's a wild card.
XiaoJoyce-
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
China2908 Posts
January 17 2010 12:02 GMT
#3679
I was so worried when Flash loses the 3rd set. There was some kind of Royal Roader and Legend of the fall thingy that kept on appearing on the comment.

Then I felt uncomfortable, felt upset might happen..

some thoughts of flash getting 2 silvers. Lols

And then flash won 4th set easily :-) . What a relieve. Phew.
Pew! Pew! Chitty Chitty Bang Bang!
Cambium
Profile Blog Joined June 2004
United States16368 Posts
January 17 2010 12:04 GMT
#3680
On January 17 2010 21:01 Roffles wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 17 2010 20:59 SimonB wrote:
I don't see how it can be assumed Stork wins game 3.

Part of the reason why Movie won was he went for such a strange time for a tech switch. I was thinking he was done when I saw it, but lucky for him, Flash didn't scout it at all and was caught completely by surprise by 5 carriers on his tanks.

I thought Movie played very well. His strategies would've crushed any other Terran, but Flash had some of the best defense I've ever seen and his mechanics overwhelmed Movie.

I thought Movie played well, except his timing was off, especially in game 1. I thought he had plenty of chances to kill Flash, but he just never seized it.

Credit Flash for playing well, but I think Movie blew it on HBR.


Yea, movie *really* blew it on HBR. He started with such a huge advantage and never took actions to capitalize it. The map basically dictates an even split in late-game, and Terran > Protoss on even bases.
When you want something, all the universe conspires in helping you to achieve it.
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