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w3jjjj
United States760 Posts
On March 31 2009 14:32 scwizard wrote: Good read. Do you have any notes regarding specific maps? Interesting question. Well, I'm thinking about revising the guide a little when I get the time, I've been practicing this build and more precision came to light, so I'll give my thoughts on maps in the revision. | ||
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scwizard
United States1195 Posts
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sashkata
Bulgaria3241 Posts
I'm not a Z, but when I play a friend of mine who uses this build (well, not exactly the same, but similar. A variation of this.) he aways has a sunk ready for this kind of shit. The sunk also denys (for the most part) dt harassment. | ||
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niin
61 Posts
i don't care what anyone says there is no reason to make sunkens in ZvP. its a waste of minerals & and drone and it doesn't scale for shit 1 sunken costs 175 plus however many minerals that drone would have mined. so if you're talking about a drone from your 3rd which is likely where most zerg players throw a sunken up and you won't have goo saturation their for awhile you're talking about missing out on probably hundreds of minerals because you made a sunken. | ||
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sashkata
Bulgaria3241 Posts
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ZerG~LegenD
Sweden1179 Posts
On March 31 2009 14:14 OneOther wrote: no no no, saracen does not open with mutas. he does the standard spire-drone-hydra build, but i counter it with sair/dt harassment into speedzealot/high templar --> 3rd base expo style. it lets me have map control while potentially doing some damage as well. it's kind of hard to explain it. dan, upload a good rep where i do it vs you or something. nobody can help you really if you don't, as you can see here. I knew that, read the edit. That's his piece of advice. Quite generic indeed but it's correct none the less. What you need versus expanding protosses is drones, lots of them - and hatches of course. I think this is a huge part of his problem. | ||
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Saracen
United States5139 Posts
On March 31 2009 20:31 ZerG~LegenD wrote: I knew that, read the edit. That's his piece of advice. Quite generic indeed but it's correct none the less. What you need versus expanding protosses is drones, lots of them - and hatches of course. I think this is a huge part of his problem. but isn't that what this build was designed to counter through agression (a fast third)? if i were to do that (macro up heavily), wouldn't i be better off going lurkerling or something? | ||
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Zerg_Sasuke
176 Posts
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w3jjjj
United States760 Posts
On March 31 2009 19:44 niin wrote: the standard for protoss against this build is to assert early pressure. the earlier the better because that will force you to stop making drones. if the protoss player sits back and lets you mass up drones you will crush him in the mid game. so the supply works out as such that right around 27-30 you need to make 6-8 more zerglings to stop the 4-5 zealots he will send out. that is dependent obviously on you not losing the first 6 lings you have which you shouldn't lose because hold position/speed should be pretty hard to lose 1 unless you have bad control. I have a habit of making 12 speedlings + 1 sunken for early defense, usually P doesn't make too many zealots and lings are enough to control the map, but even 4-5 zealots pose no threats at all with the help of a sunken. A sunken is good for 2 reasons. First, it's good defense vs DTs. Z must be aggressive with this build so his hydras cannot sit back at expos for defense, and since you have no units for defense, you must have a sunken or DTs will kill you. Secondly, in early game the amount of larva is limited and 1 drone for a sunken is better than 3 larva for additional lings, it will lower your hydra count. Plus, the cost of the sunken has been factored into the build already, so Z is not really losing money...the sunken is not forced by pressure, it is part of the build. If P does not make many zealots early and my lings can control him, I will delay the sunken until DTs come out, and I have pretty good timing sense to get it up in time, but lower level players who have less accurate timing may want to build it a little earlier just in case. On March 31 2009 23:47 Zerg_Sasuke wrote: I dont know why but sometimes it works and sometimes this build totally fails , like without reason.. leaving me look like a total noob T_T If by fail you mean your hydras lose the first battle vs zeal/archon, I have a pretty good idea of what went wrong. First check your macro, you must produce enough units for this build to be effective, second, some P players are bold and they skip cannons for earlier gateways, if you make only scourge then P gets lucky and pumps a lot more units, but if Z made mutas P will take a lot of damage. I will explain the complications in the guide when I get time to revise it. On March 31 2009 22:13 Saracen wrote: but isn't that what this build was designed to counter through agression (a fast third)? if i were to do that (macro up heavily), wouldn't i be better off going lurkerling or something? Yes, you are right. But I think what Zerg-legend is saying is that just in case if P gets a third up, then you respond by getting more drones and hatches, which is correct. | ||
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Elite00fm
United States548 Posts
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w3jjjj
United States760 Posts
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Elite00fm
United States548 Posts
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Zerg_Sasuke
176 Posts
If by fail you mean your hydras lose the first battle vs zeal/archon, I have a pretty good idea of what went wrong. First check your macro, you must produce enough units for this build to be effective, second, some P players are bold and they skip cannons for earlier gateways, if you make only scourge then P gets lucky and pumps a lot more units, but if Z made mutas P will take a lot of damage. I will explain the complications in the guide when I get time to revise it. Yeah. I remember a game(mb ill find a rep later ) where I snucked 4 lings from my first 6 ( after overpool ) into his main cuz he made only 1 canon . This killed a few probes , cost him much mining time and forced a canon in main. After this I had to be completely ahead, my macro was 100 % good for 5 hatch hydra. After a while he tried to get 3rd so I went ahead with all my hydra ( was like 3-4 gropus ) and there was a first wtf battle , I dodged almost all storms ( 5-7 hydra died ) and yet his alone 2 archon zeala army destroyed all my hydra like nothing ....gg I even posted it on gg.net but noone could help me T.T | ||
OneOther
United States10774 Posts
On April 01 2009 01:31 Elite00fm wrote: he will just deny it ever happened it luckily worked once...LOL. i will show it to you later when i get on | ||
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ZerG~LegenD
Sweden1179 Posts
I'd like to disagree. On certain maps, like Destination, this build cannot stop Protoss from getting his third up. Though it can put pressure and force defences, and that without dedicating yourself to aggression. Sometimes you can deny his third too, but sometimes you can't and then you mustn't try to. The great strength of this build is its ability to play against all Protoss openings | ||
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Wayneman
Great Britain11 Posts
This seems to be typical of some of the games I have with this build. Once the toss does have a mid-sized army I find it very hard to retain map control as his army is simply stronger than mine. Thus, if we can't stop his 3rd - and we get up our 4th (even before his 3rd is done) and still find it extremely hard to play on from there. This leads me to question: Is there a good strategy for Zerg that revolves around playing rather defensively and macro oriented? I.e. where we won't even try to put too much pressure on him early on, and where we will actually allow him to take his 3rd uncontested, yet expand more strongly ourselves. What I tried was using basically the same build as you describe, however, I get lurker aspect from the den asap and upgrade armor instead of ranged attacks to transition into a defensive mass expo lurker crackling build. P.S.: don't know if it matters, but I'm between C and C+ | ||
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Neivler
Norway911 Posts
On April 01 2009 19:53 Wayneman wrote: @OP: Can you take a look at the game between Nony and F91 on Tau Cross that was played during the last liquibition? This seems to be typical of some of the games I have with this build. Once the toss does have a mid-sized army I find it very hard to retain map control as his army is simply stronger than mine. Thus, if we can't stop his 3rd - and we get up our 4th (even before his 3rd is done) and still find it extremely hard to play on from there. This leads me to question: Is there a good strategy for Zerg that revolves around playing rather defensively and macro oriented? I.e. where we won't even try to put too much pressure on him early on, and where we will actually allow him to take his 3rd uncontested, yet expand more strongly ourselves. What I tried was using basically the same build as you describe, however, I get lurker aspect from the den asap and upgrade armor instead of ranged attacks to transition into a defensive mass expo lurker crackling build. P.S.: don't know if it matters, but I'm between C and C+ Watch the MSL finals between Lux and Jangbi. There he goes 3 hat spire 5 hat. But he gets fast uppgrades and camps on 3 bases with a LOT of lings and some lurkers to defend. Then he goes fast hive to ultras and cracklings. Or the Calm Build  | ||
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wiesel
Germany727 Posts
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w3jjjj
United States760 Posts
On April 01 2009 19:53 Wayneman wrote: @OP: Can you take a look at the game between Nony and F91 on Tau Cross that was played during the last liquibition? This seems to be typical of some of the games I have with this build. Once the toss does have a mid-sized army I find it very hard to retain map control as his army is simply stronger than mine. Thus, if we can't stop his 3rd - and we get up our 4th (even before his 3rd is done) and still find it extremely hard to play on from there. That game was F91's loss on mis-micro. First he didn't eliminate all the templars before bringing in his hydra army, then in panic trying to pick off those templars he losses all his mutas to archons, and without muta support, Nony's zeal/archon/ht army just ran him over. You will see that before battle F91 had 101 supply and Nony at 104, after the battle F91 had 44 supply and Nony still at 104, that's 56 supply worth of units lost for nothing, that kind of mistake will cost you the game no matter what build you use. Had F91 picked off all the templars before the fight, the result of that battle could have been completely different. On April 01 2009 19:53 Wayneman wrote: This leads me to question: Is there a good strategy for Zerg that revolves around playing rather defensively and macro oriented? I.e. where we won't even try to put too much pressure on him early on, and where we will actually allow him to take his 3rd uncontested, yet expand more strongly ourselves. What I tried was using basically the same build as you describe, however, I get lurker aspect from the den asap and upgrade armor instead of ranged attacks to transition into a defensive mass expo lurker crackling build. Yes, there are plenty of good lurker builds for stronger macro and less map control. However, this thread is for the hydra/muta build, we know there are plenty of alternatives, but we will not focus our discussion on them. On April 01 2009 19:16 ZerG~LegenD wrote: I'd like to disagree. On certain maps, like Destination, this build cannot stop Protoss from getting his third up. Though it can put pressure and force defences, and that without dedicating yourself to aggression. Sometimes you can deny his third too, but sometimes you can't and then you mustn't try to. The great strength of this build is its ability to play against all Protoss openings Aggression is interpreted differently by different players. I'm an overall defensive player, and anything that involves early pressure and putting your army in your opponent's half of the map is considered to be aggressive by me. I'm not saying you must try to stop P's third, just fighting for map control and putting P on the defensive is aggressive play to me. I don't think our views are different, just how express it. | ||
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Wayneman
Great Britain11 Posts
On April 02 2009 01:09 w3jjjj wrote: Yes, there are plenty of good lurker builds for stronger macro and less map control. However, this thread is for the hydra/muta build, we know there are plenty of alternatives, but we will not focus our discussion on them. It would be awesome if you could do a guide about one of those in the future  | ||
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