! [G] ZvP 5 hatch hydra -> muta build - Page 5

On March 31 2009 14:32 scwizard wrote:
Good read. Do you have any notes regarding specific maps?

On March 31 2009 14:14 OneOther wrote:

no no no, saracen does not open with mutas. he does the standard spire-drone-hydra build, but i counter it with sair/dt harassment into speedzealot/high templar --> 3rd base expo style. it lets me have map control while potentially doing some damage as well. it's kind of hard to explain it. dan, upload a good rep where i do it vs you or something. nobody can help you really if you don't, as you can see here.

On March 31 2009 20:31 ZerG~LegenD wrote:

I knew that, read the edit. That's his piece of advice. Quite generic indeed but it's correct none the less. What you need versus expanding protosses is drones, lots of them - and hatches of course. I think this is a huge part of his problem.

On March 31 2009 19:44 niin wrote:
the standard for protoss against this build is to assert early pressure. the earlier the better because that will force you to stop making drones. if the protoss player sits back and lets you mass up drones you will crush him in the mid game. so the supply works out as such that right around 27-30 you need to make 6-8 more zerglings to stop the 4-5 zealots he will send out. that is dependent obviously on you not losing the first 6 lings you have which you shouldn't lose because hold position/speed should be pretty hard to lose 1 unless you have bad control.

On March 31 2009 23:47 Zerg_Sasuke wrote:
I dont know why but sometimes it works and sometimes this build totally fails , like without reason.. leaving me look like a total noob T_T

On March 31 2009 22:13 Saracen wrote:
but isn't that what this build was designed to counter through agression (a fast third)? if i were to do that (macro up heavily), wouldn't i be better off going lurkerling or something?

If by fail you mean your hydras lose the first battle vs zeal/archon, I have a pretty good idea of what went wrong. First check your macro, you must produce enough units for this build to be effective, second, some P players are bold and they skip cannons for earlier gateways, if you make only scourge then P gets lucky and pumps a lot more units, but if Z made mutas P will take a lot of damage. I will explain the complications in the guide when I get time to revise it.

On April 01 2009 01:31 Elite00fm wrote:
he will just deny it ever happened

On March 31 2009 23:59 w3jjjj wrote:



Yes, you are right.

On April 01 2009 19:53 Wayneman wrote:
@OP: Can you take a look at the game between Nony and F91 on Tau Cross that was played during the last liquibition?
This seems to be typical of some of the games I have with this build.
Once the toss does have a mid-sized army I find it very hard to retain map control as his army is simply stronger than mine.
Thus, if we can't stop his 3rd - and we get up our 4th (even before his 3rd is done) and still find it extremely hard to play on from there.

This leads me to question:
Is there a good strategy for Zerg that revolves around playing rather defensively and macro oriented? I.e. where we won't even try to put too much pressure on him early on, and where we will actually allow him to take his 3rd uncontested, yet expand more strongly ourselves. What I tried was using basically the same build as you describe, however, I get lurker aspect from the den asap and upgrade armor instead of ranged attacks to transition into a defensive mass expo lurker crackling build.

P.S.: don't know if it matters, but I'm between C and C+

On April 01 2009 19:53 Wayneman wrote:
@OP: Can you take a look at the game between Nony and F91 on Tau Cross that was played during the last liquibition?
This seems to be typical of some of the games I have with this build.
Once the toss does have a mid-sized army I find it very hard to retain map control as his army is simply stronger than mine.
Thus, if we can't stop his 3rd - and we get up our 4th (even before his 3rd is done) and still find it extremely hard to play on from there.

On April 01 2009 19:53 Wayneman wrote:
This leads me to question:
Is there a good strategy for Zerg that revolves around playing rather defensively and macro oriented? I.e. where we won't even try to put too much pressure on him early on, and where we will actually allow him to take his 3rd uncontested, yet expand more strongly ourselves. What I tried was using basically the same build as you describe, however, I get lurker aspect from the den asap and upgrade armor instead of ranged attacks to transition into a defensive mass expo lurker crackling build.

On April 01 2009 19:16 ZerG~LegenD wrote:
I'd like to disagree. On certain maps, like Destination, this build cannot stop Protoss from getting his third up. Though it can put pressure and force defences, and that without dedicating yourself to aggression. Sometimes you can deny his third too, but sometimes you can't and then you mustn't try to. The great strength of this build is its ability to play against all Protoss openings

On April 02 2009 01:09 w3jjjj wrote:
Yes, there are plenty of good lurker builds for stronger macro and less map control. However, this thread is for the hydra/muta build, we know there are plenty of alternatives, but we will not focus our discussion on them.