Revision: July 05, 2009. Many parts of the guide were poorly worded, creating some confusion. I hope now it is better worded. Also added are a history section, some discussions on map choices, a fake hydra section, and more on muta transition timing.
5 Hatch Hydra -> Muta Guide
ZvP History Leading to This Build:
ZvP as we know it today is overwhelmingly FE centered from the P side. P is weak at tier one of its tech tree, but very strong at tier two, with templars, DTs, corsairs, and reavers. The idea behind FE is that P wants to skip tier one, turtle with a few cannons and jump directly to tier two, right when his economy kicks in.
Naturally, the direct response from Z is to out macro P early on, double expand right away and then 4 hatches before gas and as many drones as possible before worrying about his defense.
While there is nothing wrong with this response, Z is forced to play catch up. His tech is slower, his upgrades are slower, and P can lead the game. P can go for any tech route as he pleases, and alternatively, he can also mass up a sizable +1 speedlot army for a timing attack right before lair units come out. And while P attacks, he can take his third base while Z is too busy defending. For quite some time this is how ZvP was played.
Then came Savior, who popularized the three hatch lair timing, going directly to either fast lurker or fast muta. The idea is that by countering fast tech with fast tech, Z is no longer vulnerable to the +1 speedlot push, and at the same time, Z can now play actively, either with muta counter or lurker contain. Not only that the traditional +1 speedlot push can be defended with ease, now P has to make 3 cannons per mineral line just to be safe from a potential muta counter, then he finds himself contained by lurkers before he has even started a robo, but the time P comes out Z has taken over the map.
This is where the startgate opening replaced the speedlot build as mainstream, that fast corsair to scout what Z is doing is absolutely critical for P to adapt accordingly. Not only is this safer for P to defend, he can also cut unnecessary defense when appropriate. But even so, Savior at this time rarely lost to any P at all, the muta/lurker play style was considered imba.
Then came Bisu, who popularized the mass corsair harass/macro style. P can open with either sair/reaver or sair/DT. In either case P keeps constant corsair production until he has total air control. Not only does this completely nullify any muta threat, now Z has a big problem protecting his overlords. Gone are the days when Z can just cover the map with overlords in a map hacking manner, now it is the zerg who plays in the dark. P just keep harassing Z while he safely expands and macro up a big army.
The Savior builds that were once considered imba became useless. Going directly to mutas no longer put any real threat on P, as it no longer guaranteed air control, for as soon as the corsairs accumulated in numbers, possibly with +1 air attack, mutas were useless. The traditional muta -> lurker play style where Z gets mass drones and hatches while abusing his lair units was no good anymore, since once the mutas get distroyed, Z cannot protect his bases or his overlords. The fast lurker route produced equally sad outcomes, the slow overlords and delayed spire surrendered all air control to the corsairs, DT run bys and reaver/storm drops cannot be defended with lurkers, and since Z is forced to make hydras for defense, he cannot even make a lurker/ling counter attack. With the fall of Savior, for some time ZvP was imba in P’s favor.
Alas, then came Jaedong, who created the modern ZvP as we know it today. Many zergs were quick to abandon the 3 hath lair timing, trying all sorts of unconventional play only to find the Bisu style overpowers all. Only JD firmly knew that Savior’s idea to counter fast tech with fast tech was flawless, what needed to be changed was HOW the lair tech must be used. With the Bisu style of mass corsairs + DT/reaver harasses, P has virtually no ground army to pressure zerg at that particular timing. So what did JD do? He made scourge to counter the early corsairs, and he made DRONES and HATCHERIES!
Fast mutas/lurkers were out, scourge + drones + hatcheries into mass hydra/lurker were in. After JD defeated Stork to claim his first OSL title, his new evolutionary play style was accepted as mainstream. For a brief moment, P players were very confused, their magical Bisu style that relies on direct harasses to Z’s drone supply, while still effective, has lost all the magic in it. When corsair and shuttle harasses don’t pay off, all of a sudden P realizes that he is not putting any real pressure on the zerg at all. Every Z started to make scourge and drones and hatcheries, then switch to mass hydra/lurker off of 6 hatches on 4 bases. P has no ground army in the traditional manner, and they were doing less and less damages with harasses as zergs got more comfortable defending with scourge/hydra plus borrow upgrade.
Still, it was the era of the six dragons in the year of the protoss. One of these dragons, not Bisu but I forgot who, designed the 4 gate zeal/archon attack. It was a timing designed to strike right before the hydra switch. Z saw the stargate, gained air control with scourge, made a whole bunch of drones, took his 4th expansion, 3 evolution chambers, 6 hatcheries, and everything looked so well… but right before the hydras can be produced, P showed up with 2 archons and a bunch of speedlots, and many games at the pro level ended right there. Z had everything he could have wished for, but no army to defend, gg.
This is where the current, neo sauron, 5 hatch hydra build comes in. At the time, with exception to Bisu himself, who still opened most games with sair/reaver, most P players jumped off the Bisu boat as quickly as they first got on it. Corsairs and harasses were out, zeal/archon bust were in. Z can no longer go with his fantasy set up getting mass drones, 6 hatcheries, 4 bases, and triple chamber upgrades all at the same time and expect to get away with it. And so the greedy zergs re-evaluated just how greedy they can be, and settled for staying on 3 bases with 5 hatcheries and just one evolution chamber. What Z has given up in econ is more than made up for by the sheer number of hydras that now contested for map control.
When to use this build? The above history section should provide the reasoning so I will not double explain here. Basically, the build is:
Good vs:
One stargate opening where P makes no more than 3 corsairs, going for a fast zeal/archon switch.
Not Good vs:
True Bisu style with mass corsairs and harass/macro play. If you confirm stargate/robo, or stargate/citadel where P makes constant corsairs, but is slow to add more gateways. Z has no need to make hydras so soon, he should go back to JD’s initial macro frenzy build, abuse the small window before reaver comes out to get more drones and a six hatch, with 3 chamber upgrades, while controlling the corsairs with scourge, then switch to mass hydra/lurker. Tricky vs:
Goon/ht. This is a tricky case. If P plays the goon/ht timing push, with 2 hts + 1 group of goons + a few zealots, hydra/muta is a direct counter. Snipe the hts and all there is left is hydra/muta vs goons, hell yea. However, if P is playing defensively, as the goon number builds up, ht sniping becomes increasingly difficult. Once there are 2 groups of goons protecting the templars, ht snipe is dangerously difficult. Losing mutas carelessly will cost you the game. ***Not Applicable vs***:
This seems unnecessary, but you’ll be surprised to know how many ppl asked me “what if P is playing 1 base……?”
The 5 hatch hydra build does not apply to 1 base P builds.
“What if P doesn’t have a stargate……?”
You are reading the wrong guide. If P is playing old school, no stargate +1 speedlot. Z should revert back to fast muta or fast lurker in the old Savior style. Most common is muta -> lurker play while getting a ton of drones and hatches. Alternatively a lurker first fast contain without mutas can work just as well.
Map Choices:
The later muta transition works best with a third gas. So this build is best used on maps where your third expansion has gas, destination, Othello, tau cross, etc…
On maps where the third base has no gas, bluestorm, longinus, etc… You can still play this build, but it is harder due to the lack of gas. I recommend getting lurker aspect before hydra range, and transition into lurker/hydra/ling instead of muta since you don’t need as many lurkers as you need mutas initially to defend, and with lurkers you can take a 4th expansion much quicker, which should give you the much needed gas.
Early game set up:
There isn’t really a hard build order since this play style can be done via any initial openings. The goal of the early game is to get 5 hatches, with exactly 28 drones on minerals and 6 on gas before switching to hydra production. I'll give more details as we go.
Whatever opening is fine, be it 12 hatch, 12 pool, over pool, 9 pool, or 9 pool speed are all viable. In my testing, there really isn't much of an econ difference between over pool and 9 pool. My suggestion is that on larger maps or maps with nat layout that is easy to defend, use 9 pool, cuz you'll need those earlier lings to force 2 cannons before nexus; on smaller maps or maps with a nat layout that is difficult to defend, use overpool, due to shorter distances and difficulty to wall the cannons, overpool is enough to force 2 cannons before nexus and you get a slightly better econ.
All the openings converge after third hatch, you get gas right away. First 100 gas go lair, second 100 gas go ling speed. In the earlier version of this guide I've stated that you should make units up to supply limit in early game, like 18/18 overlord, 27/27 overlord. But after extensive testing, I've found no real econ difference between this approach and the more common way of making overlords before supply limit. Currently I make overlord before supply limit just because I'm more used to it. I make 15/18 overlord and 23/27, 32/35 overlord (because we will put 2 additional hatch down before going over 35 supply, there is no need for earlier overlord for this particular supply limit), after 35 supply limit, you have to pre-make overlord to not get stuck on supply.
For early defense I base my ling timing on P's gate timing. If I did 12 hatch and he did forge first, I'll only make 2 lings to chase the probe, all drones until his 1st zealot comes out, then 6 more lings to deal with his 2 zeal push. Speed will finish soon so a 3 zeal push is no big deal, you can make 4 more lings After he comes out, plenty of time. Generally, there is no need for a sunken in early game, speedllings should kill anything that comes at you.
Spire when lair finishes. I generally have excess minerals to make 4th hatch around 32 supply, and 5th hatch on 35 supply. Once 5th hatch is put down, get den and second gas. When den finish, make the evolution chamber, and start upgrading both hydra and ovie speed, get +1 missile attack when chamber finishes. Always make 4 scourge, so you can scout immediately with 1 pair and have the other pair deal with the corsair. Also this is a good time to get 1 sunken at your nat and 1 at your third. DT is coming, but we have sunken and hydras coming out to deal with them.
As I stated earlier, you want 28 drones on minerals and 6 on gas before hydra production, so the exact trigger supply depends on how many lings and scourge you've made. I have the habit of making 12 lings and 4 scourge, plus my 34 drones, that equals 42 supply exactly, which is when I start hydra production. If you made less lings, you can start hydra production even earlier, as soon as your drone count reaches the desired 28-6.
This completes the early set up.
Demos vs computer with cheat codes on, only intended to show the bo.
12 pool and over pool are very similar to 12 hatch and 9 pool respectively. 9 pool speed is something I almost never use, but everything flows the same way after the initial opening, so you can figure it out.
The Idea Behind a Muta Transition:
This is the second part of the hydra -> muta strategy. I’ll briefly discuss the reasoning behind a muta transition:
The strongest unit in P’s mid game army is the templar. In vast majority of ZvP fights, storms do more damage for P than his units’ physical attacks. A strong P player typically avoids committing himself to attacks unless he has already weakened/reduced the zerg army with storms. It is frustrating to play against P players who run away after storming 1/3 of your army, their energies recharge, but your dead units are gone.
Typically Z deals with storms in three ways: hydra/ling micro, lurker field, and muta snipe. To dodge storms and snipe templars with hydra/ling micro is the most difficult, especially when it is a large army fight, the more storms cast simultaneously on your units, the harder it is to pull all of them out fast enough.
The second and most common option is to use a lurker field defense. The idea is that it takes 2 storms to kill a lurker, so even if P has 3-5 templars, their energies get depleted very fast trying to break into a lurker field. Z will keep most of his units in the back and position his flank while P is dealing with the lurkers, meanwhile Z will micro 1-2 groups of hydra/ling on the lurker field to discourage goon sniping and bait out even more storms for him to dodge, then, when most of the templars have no energy, and the lurker field is almost broken, that’s when Z attacks with everything he saved up to surround and kill P’s physical army.
The third option, quite popular these days, is to use mutas to snipe off the templars directly. While a very sound plan, and much simpler to execute than controlling large armies and managing lurker fields, the muta option is a lot more risky. With just a slight mis-micro, like flying too close to some archons, or pulling out too slow from a storm, can cost you all of your mutas in an instant. With lurkers, as long as you spread them out, there is no risk of suffering this kind of damage in an instant. But with mutas, the game can be lost in a just a few seconds, even if you have done everything perfectly up to that point. I’m not trying to sound pessimistic, but to explain a strategy, I feel obligated to point out the dangers involved.
Many people falsely believe that just because a strategy is commonly used by the pros, it is the only viable option. That is not true, while the hydra -> muta is very popular, going hydra -> lurker can be just as strong. This is ONE good strategy, not THE strategy. If you are not comfortable with muta control, or you just don’t want to take that risk, this is not the strategy for you.
Hydra -> Muta Transition Timing
1. Before Hydras! (fake hydra trick build):
Lately, I’ve seen several games where Z would do all the early set up as usual, but make the second gas before 5th hatch, and delay the hydra den along with all the normal upgrades such as ovie speed or +1 range attack. This will give Z enough gas to make 6 mutas and 1 pair of scourge. Probe/zealot scouts cannot tell the difference, since you have 5 hatches in a build that is virtually identical to the normal 5 hatch hydra play. Even corsair scout may not tell the difference because your scourge will come out first to chase the corsair away before mutas are revealed. Even if P noticed that you did not make a hydra den, since you have three bases, P is likely to assume that he simply missed where the den was.
If P skipped cannons in a gamble assuming Z will go hydras, and he cut off corsair production after the first scouting one, this trick muta opening disguising itself as the 5 hatch hydra will catch P completely off guard and severely punish him for his greediness. You can even win the game right there if P has no cannons in his main. If P does have 1 cannon in main, 6 mutas can still destroy the cannon quickly while the scourge deals with the corsair. You can still do heavy damage.
The potential downfall is that if P is playing the true Bisu style and does not stop corsair production, and he cannons properly. Your initial mutas will not do any damage. And compared to a true muta opening, you have way less mutas and you will lose air control much quicker, which means you will be very vulnerable to a zeal/archon/corsair push.
The very risky nature of this muta timing makes it a gamble. If you know your P opponent before the match and you know he likes to skip cannons for faster gateways, you can try to punish him for it. On the other hand, if you are playing someone whom you know will likely play the true Bisu style, don’t do this muta timing.
In making this revision, I was very hesitant to add this section in, because if you go muta first, then it really isn’t hydra -> muta anymore… However, considering its build order is virtually identical to the normal 5 hatch hydra, and this play is more of trick than a standard, I feel that it belongs here more so than it does in a muta opening guide.
2. After 3 Groups of Hydras:
In the earlier version of this guide I advised people to make 4 groups of hydras, based on the game F91 vs JF on destination, but I’ve had some trouble playing against P players who don’t morph archons right away. Instead of making a zeal/archon push to see if they can damage zerg, P simply keep their templars and try to take a fast third expansion.
I have tried to out micro the zeal/templar army with my first three groups of hydras while producing a 4th group, but typically I take more damage than I deal. Then I saw the game F91 vs Nony on Tau Cross, where F91 revised his play to make mutas after 3 groups of hydras. F91 ended up losing the game due to mis-micro, but this muta timing looked better.
3. After 4 or More Groups of Hydras:
This is the best play against a pure zeal/archon push. Without storms, mass hydras rule. You don’t need mutas too early against this, and mutas aren’t great against archons anyway.
Note from earlier version: “with this mutas timing, the 9 minute mark is a good point to do a supply check. For example, if you opened with overpool and did everything correctly with a no rush 9 agreement, at the 9 minute mark you should have 85 supply with 4 groups of hydra/ling, your opponent should have 95 supply with an army of 2-3 archons and 15 ish zealots. Now typically in a real game with early harass and less than perfect macro, you can be happy with 80 supply at 9 minutes, and P can be happy with 90 supply. However, if you have even lower, then there is something wrong with your early execution and you must find it and correct it. No build can be effective if you don't produce enough units. The supply count at the 9 minute mark varies in other openings, check my opening reps vs computer posted above for more detail.”
I did not test the supply check with other mutas timings, you can try it yourself if that’s the kind of thing you like to do.
4. Never!
The muta switch is a technique. While this build is designed to incorporate the muta switch technique, it does not have to. Earlier I said that goon/ht is a tricky case, where as the goon count builds up, ht sniping becomes very difficult. Well, you don’t have to force yourself to go muta sniping just because you opened 5 hatch hydra. If I saw early goons coming out, and I have not yet committed myself to mutas, I like to switch directly into lurker/hydra/ling instead. Just add 2 more chambers and set up your lurker defenses, this play style is more defensive, but you can afford to make more drones and take an expansion faster because of your strong lurker fields. Play flexibly.
Hydra/lurker/ling follow up
Regardless of what you do, eventually you are going to make lurkers and just mass hydra/ling on the side. After lurker upgrade start, 2 more chambers to catch up normal upgrades while you get +2 missile attack. At this point the build is over, you just play normal ZvP. Get drones when you are not in danger and just macro up.
Assume that all went well and you gained some map control, either denied or at least delayed P's third expo, when lurkers come out you can play hydra/lurker for a contain, or just defensively while going hive. You want to have 7 hatcheries pumping lurker/hydra/ling. You should aim for 45-50 drones for a very powerful econ. Then just slowly add a couple here and there from time to time to keep growing and concentrate on units. 7 hatch full units production is equivalent to 9 gateway production. P needs to have 3 base running to keep up with your 4.
If things didn't go so well and you have lost map control, due to mis micro of mutas and then lost hydras to storms, you will be in great danger...I would stop hydra production, make pure lurker/ling and turtle to cracks, defilers and drop, get islands, and eventually retake map with upgraded ultra/ling, but it's hard to fight an uphill battle so don't pay too much attention if your turtle fails, concentrate on perfecting your muta/hydra play so you Don't get into a situation where you can only turtle to survive.
And that’s it!
This build has become very popular, you can find plenty of pro gamer examples on youtube.
Another great read, keep it up One quick question though, in what order do you get your chamber upgrades? I always do +2 carapace before I add a second and start going for +3 carapace and +1 missile. Also, do you choose to go defiler or ultra first, or does that depend on how much of a cannon whore the P is?
On March 10 2009 13:35 candlejackisgonn wrote: Another great read, keep it up One quick question though, in what order do you get your chamber upgrades? I always do +2 carapace before I add a second and start going for +3 carapace and +1 missile. Also, do you choose to go defiler or ultra first, or does that depend on how much of a cannon whore the P is?
I said it in the guide, in this build get missile attack first, then catch up carapace and melee. You should have a hydra/lurker army of +1 carapace +2 missile attack. Not surprisingly, both hydras and lurkers do great damage with the +2 attack.
I always get defilers first, but often I will make the ultra cavern at the same time, but I won't make ultras until both carapace and speed finish. In general defilers are great, swarm is very good for lurker defense cuz they nullify dragoons, plague is just too damn awesome to describe...1 plague and the P army is half dead, how much better does a spell get?
When you spot the forge spinning early and it's obviously a speedlot rush that will move out ~7:00 or so, is the best thing to do:
-get second gas right after spire is put down, drone up more till halfway done with spire, save for mutas
-delay placement of fourth and fifth hatchery until after mutas are out
-make mutas and lings to defend the push, then counter
Also say you successfully snipe most of the high templar and there is no third base going up, is it best to just set up a contain while macroing or should you go for a break into the natural?
nice fucken guides lols, keep it up i think you should synthesize all your guides into one big guide so a zerg player can learn a lot at once and you'll be able to get it into recommended threads :D
On March 10 2009 13:48 systranerror wrote: When you spot the forge spinning early and it's obviously a speedlot rush that will move out ~7:00 or so, is the best thing to do:
-get second gas right after spire is put down, drone up more till halfway done with spire, save for mutas
-delay placement of fourth and fifth hatchery until after mutas are out
-make mutas and lings to defend the push, then counter
Also say you successfully snipe most of the high templar and there is no third base going up, is it best to just set up a contain while macroing or should you go for a break into the natural?
Forge spinning early does not always mean a no stargate speedlot rush. There is a strange and not so common mass corsair/+1 speedlot timing attack build that works great against muta openinngs. Best signs to judge P builds is based on gateway timing, after core finish if you see 2 gates going down quickly when you expect the stargate, that hints speedlot rush regardless of whether forge is spinning, hell he might have just forgot, but you never want to be caught off guard by a speedlot attack right when you start hydras.
If indeed you confirm a no stargate speedlot build with fast templar archive, then yes get gas sooner, make your 4th hatch and go mutas earlier, make extra sunkens with the money you normally have for the 5th hatch. Lings aren't great vs +1 speedlots, but if you think your sunkens might not hold, make lings will aid your defense.
On your second question, if you have complete map control, see if you can pick off templars at his nat, your hydra blob can walk through anything without storm threats. If his templars are protected by cannons, I wouldn't force it. Losing mutas is the same as losing map control cuz you can no longer control his templar count.
This is a great guide, although i don't really like discussing zerg BOs in terms of supply past the first 5 minutes, because hydras can be forced to fight at almost anytime
I would like to see a rep were you lose so we can see the flaws of this BO. Also showing us a replay were the toss is losing his expansion when he got 3 ht's and you going 6-7 hatch hydra vs his 6 gates is obviously a win situation for you. Also I dont get why you first go hydra then muta because Ive seen pro's going first muta then hydra. Also I dont get why you didnt get the expansion right next to your natural and you decided to take the 9th. You can defense the closest position much easier.Overall its a nice BO but as said before its better to go first muta then hydra simply because I disagree with you saying that cors/reaver/ht is bad and your solution should be mass hydra, I mean rofl.But YES cors/reaver is the hardest thing to play as toss but if u manage to play it right its the most leathal. All this are my opinion. Feel free to correct some mistakes I might have pointed out and I ll try and answer it
Nice guide, this is the build I use recently but it will only work if you have 3 fast bases with gas in every each of them. This would be kinda hard to do on blue storm where u 3rd is min only
On March 10 2009 18:10 koziol wrote: Nice guide, this is the build I use recently but it will only work if you have 3 fast bases with gas in every each of them. This would be kinda hard to do on blue storm where u 3rd is min only
Actually in blue storm you can take the 3rd min only and have a good amount of hydras from just 2 gas and then take the 4th which is easily atteniable. There is a very close expansion to both naturals having a gas anyways.
Normally P will prefer templars over archons for the purpose of taking an early expo. Cuz if he really wanted to attack, he had to morph archons and attack with zeal/archon just in case you made muta. So by preserving templars he will most likely expo. Z should stop hydra production and get mutas right away, after that one round of drones.
can you give a more definate example for this... like -> make 10-20 hydras, rest drones , into muta take another expo or something? i like greed.
But i don't really play hydra/muta so idk I like doing what you do, except instead of hydras, i go lair then 150 armor and defend my 3rd with fast lurker/ +1 def speedlings then denying his 3rd with some lurker, since he'll mostly just have storm, no obs and following up with hydralinglurk and eventually ultraling Any tips for that particular build? although it's weak vs sair in .. evil quantities D:
On March 10 2009 18:05 ffswowsucks wrote: I would like to see a rep were you lose so we can see the flaws of this BO. Also showing us a replay were the toss is losing his expansion when he got 3 ht's and you going 6-7 hatch hydra vs his 6 gates is obviously a win situation for you. Also I dont get why you first go hydra then muta because Ive seen pro's going first muta then hydra. Also I dont get why you didnt get the expansion right next to your natural and you decided to take the 9th. You can defense the closest position much easier.Overall its a nice BO but as said before its better to go first muta then hydra simply because I disagree with you saying that cors/reaver/ht is bad and your solution should be mass hydra, I mean rofl.But YES cors/reaver is the hardest thing to play as toss but if u manage to play it right its the most leathal. All this are my opinion. Feel free to correct some mistakes I might have pointed out and I ll try and answer it
This BO is currently the standard build by pro gamers. They use muta first builds for all in purposes mostly
On March 10 2009 18:05 ffswowsucks wrote: I would like to see a rep were you lose so we can see the flaws of this BO. Also showing us a replay were the toss is losing his expansion when he got 3 ht's and you going 6-7 hatch hydra vs his 6 gates is obviously a win situation for you. Also I dont get why you first go hydra then muta because Ive seen pro's going first muta then hydra. Also I dont get why you didnt get the expansion right next to your natural and you decided to take the 9th. You can defense the closest position much easier.Overall its a nice BO but as said before its better to go first muta then hydra simply because I disagree with you saying that cors/reaver/ht is bad and your solution should be mass hydra, I mean rofl.But YES cors/reaver is the hardest thing to play as toss but if u manage to play it right its the most leathal. All this are my opinion. Feel free to correct some mistakes I might have pointed out and I ll try and answer it
This BO is currently the standard build by pro gamers. They use muta first builds for all in purposes mostly
Mutas first are in no way an all in build... It transitions fine into 5hatch hydra.
Could you help me out here, I used the 5hatch into muta however I dont seem to be able to win against my friend. Could you look at my replay and identify anything?
On March 10 2009 18:05 ffswowsucks wrote: I would like to see a rep were you lose so we can see the flaws of this BO. Also showing us a replay were the toss is losing his expansion when he got 3 ht's and you going 6-7 hatch hydra vs his 6 gates is obviously a win situation for you. Also I dont get why you first go hydra then muta because Ive seen pro's going first muta then hydra. Also I dont get why you didnt get the expansion right next to your natural and you decided to take the 9th. You can defense the closest position much easier.Overall its a nice BO but as said before its better to go first muta then hydra simply because I disagree with you saying that cors/reaver/ht is bad and your solution should be mass hydra, I mean rofl.But YES cors/reaver is the hardest thing to play as toss but if u manage to play it right its the most leathal. All this are my opinion. Feel free to correct some mistakes I might have pointed out and I ll try and answer it
This BO is currently the standard build by pro gamers. They use muta first builds for all in purposes mostly
Mutas first are in no way an all in build... It transitions fine into 5hatch hydra.
If you cut a hatch for a quicker second gas they'll set you back for sure - if it fails. If you instead add the fifth hatch normally and delay your mutas instead there'll be little harm done.
On March 10 2009 18:05 ffswowsucks wrote: I would like to see a rep were you lose so we can see the flaws of this BO. Also showing us a replay were the toss is losing his expansion when he got 3 ht's and you going 6-7 hatch hydra vs his 6 gates is obviously a win situation for you. Also I dont get why you first go hydra then muta because Ive seen pro's going first muta then hydra. Also I dont get why you didnt get the expansion right next to your natural and you decided to take the 9th. You can defense the closest position much easier.Overall its a nice BO but as said before its better to go first muta then hydra simply because I disagree with you saying that cors/reaver/ht is bad and your solution should be mass hydra, I mean rofl.But YES cors/reaver is the hardest thing to play as toss but if u manage to play it right its the most leathal. All this are my opinion. Feel free to correct some mistakes I might have pointed out and I ll try and answer it
The replay was shown to demonstrate a correct execution of the Z build, not that the game itself has any value.
As you wish, here is a game I lose, [url blocked]
The weakness of this build is as I've said in the guide, if you mess up that muta/hydra army and lose map control, Z will be at a great disadvantage. In this game While I was attacking his secret expo, he counted and in poor response, I lost my mutas to his corsairs and my hydras got stormed due to failure to eliminate templars.
Muta--> hydra is viable, but it is weak vs mass corsair builds, either corsair/dt or corsair/reaver is superior. See bisu vs savior games for confirmation. Muta --> hydra is used vs no stargate or if you are certain that P has stopped corsairs.
The position of my third is fine, cross position is long enough for me to defend, 9:00 gives me a free 4th. If the P spawned cross position to me, taking another nat is riskier as it is closer, in that case I will take the corner.
On March 10 2009 23:13 DragoonPK wrote: Could you help me out here, I used the 5hatch into muta however I dont seem to be able to win against my friend. Could you look at my replay and identify anything?
Huge bank account, wasted mutalisks (you lost more resources than he did, and he wasn't left without temps at the crucial timing) and a suicidal attack. Please don't ever attack the protoss like that, it's just so fucking dumb.
First of all, make sure you catch him leaving his base with those zealots and make some extra lings in time to stop him from getting into your main.
Then pay more attention to your supply levels. This is really important, you're more or less suffering from a supply drop all game long. The idea of making a overlord at 27 is fine, but has to make sure it's being made the very second you hit 27 supply, waiting 10 seconds to make it just doesn't cut it. This is even more important in the mid-game, where you as lols said should make your overlords well before limit. You will almost inevitable lose the overlord in his base, so prepare for it by making a surplus one when his stargate completes. Though that round of overlords (was it 7 at once?) was a little to on the heavy side.
The greatest benefit of taking out his templars with mutas is if you can strike his army with hydras right after. Going after templars if fine even if you don't intend to, but going on a sucidal streak to get them is not.
And a line is not a proper battle formation, at least not when turned like that. Try to turn it 90 degrees around and you'll be much better off.
Here's some protoss qq: What would be the best set of counter strategies to this, that is what set of counter / counter-counter / counter-counter-counter etc would leave the zerg most confused / bad off.
what you gonna do if P goes mass sair/reaver, you muta and scourge will just be wasted then you are forced to play mass hydra which he will just use reaver harass or even dt drop because your make all your lords stay in 1 group to avoid sair rape and that makes you vulnerable to DT drop in main. Then P can take more expos while harassing and mass to zeal/goon/ht. I find this build very annoying.
On March 11 2009 00:03 18zotbob wrote: what you gonna do if P goes mass sair/reaver, you muta and scourge will just be wasted then you are forced to play mass hydra which he will just use reaver harass or even dt drop because your make all your lords stay in 1 group to avoid sair rape and that makes you vulnerable to DT drop in main. Then P can take more expos while harassing and mass to zeal/goon/ht. I find this build very annoying.
burrowed hydras freak the shit outta me when I try sair/reaver against this build >.>
On March 10 2009 18:05 ffswowsucks wrote: I would like to see a rep were you lose so we can see the flaws of this BO. Also showing us a replay were the toss is losing his expansion when he got 3 ht's and you going 6-7 hatch hydra vs his 6 gates is obviously a win situation for you. Also I dont get why you first go hydra then muta because Ive seen pro's going first muta then hydra. Also I dont get why you didnt get the expansion right next to your natural and you decided to take the 9th. You can defense the closest position much easier.Overall its a nice BO but as said before its better to go first muta then hydra simply because I disagree with you saying that cors/reaver/ht is bad and your solution should be mass hydra, I mean rofl.But YES cors/reaver is the hardest thing to play as toss but if u manage to play it right its the most leathal. All this are my opinion. Feel free to correct some mistakes I might have pointed out and I ll try and answer it
Mutas first is probably safer than hydras first in that it is harder to be harrassed, but in general it starts off with a slightly weaker economy (much slower 5th hatchery) and is weak vs heavy corsair openings. However, it allows you to keep corsair counts down and possibly do economic damage while keeping yourself relatively safe as you drone up and then proceed into hydras. The key point of mutas first though is to not lose any mutalisks at all, because they are absolutely crucial to have in sniping templars later. Once some archons and some sairs are out, it's best to be much more cautious so you can save your mutalisks for later.
For the question about starting mutalisks and seeing your opponent going sair/reaver or sair/dt: you should ideally be able to scout that he is going a sair heavy build either by some few things: a)extremely fast 2nd gas, maybe when cyber core is half done b)extremely low gateway count c)two stargates, or constant sair production or +1 (sometimes some people like Best and jaystar like to just make 5 corsairs or so though, but maintain ground armies) d)robotics facility obviously So when you scout that you'll want to make sure not to open mutalisks and instead open with hydras. If you did perhaps open mutalisks, all is not over because as his sair count is low you can focus on getting some sair kills and keeping his sair count low and even a shuttle snipe if you're good enough. At the same time, you'll be upgrading burrow and getting hydras. Hydras are a counter to sair/dt and sair/reaver, but it all depends on having burrowed lings on the map to see his shuttle positions and being able to nullify any attacks he makes while expanding as much as you can. Also keep lings in front of his base or at expoes so you are sure he doesn't sneak an expo, this way it will be very hard for him to expo. The most dangerous thing is if he does a sudden switch to ground forces with lots of storm and you still think he's going heavy sair/reaver, but that won't surprise you if you deal with the reavers efficiently. Later in the game he can use reavers to defend bases, which makes them exponentially harder to break.
So is this a good counter to the 4 gate 2 archon build? I thought the timing on the 4 gate 2 archon is suppose to hit when hydra production just started.
On March 11 2009 00:44 nosliw wrote: So is this a good counter to the 4 gate 2 archon build? I thought the timing on the 4 gate 2 archon is suppose to hit when hydra production just started.
lol..... hydras can come out alot faster and I mean ALOT faster, I can get like 15 hydras when you just have 5 zeals...
On March 10 2009 23:13 DragoonPK wrote: Could you help me out here, I used the 5hatch into muta however I dont seem to be able to win against my friend. Could you look at my replay and identify anything?
Zerg-Legend has made a good post above, I don't think I'll have anything to add so I'm gonna play lazy on this one XD.
On March 10 2009 23:50 EtherealDeath wrote: Here's some protoss qq: What would be the best set of counter strategies to this, that is what set of counter / counter-counter / counter-counter-counter etc would leave the zerg most confused / bad off.
Mass corsair builds if you wish to avoid facing hydra/muta in the first place, Z will not use the hydra/muta strategy if he sees mass corsairs. Alternatively, goon/ht is a good build, the goons can protect the hts and storms deal with hydras, Z will probably avoid going muta again and go mass hydra/ling instead. This is in the guide btw.
On March 11 2009 00:03 18zotbob wrote: what you gonna do if P goes mass sair/reaver, you muta and scourge will just be wasted then you are forced to play mass hydra which he will just use reaver harass or even dt drop because your make all your lords stay in 1 group to avoid sair rape and that makes you vulnerable to DT drop in main. Then P can take more expos while harassing and mass to zeal/goon/ht. I find this build very annoying.
I said in the guide that vs mass corsair builds we will not use hydra/muta, therefore it is outside the scope of this thread's discussion. Current theory on fighting sair/reaver or sair/dt is hydra/scourge, see Jaedong vs Bisu on destination in the GOMTV special match.
On March 11 2009 00:33 Superiorwolf wrote: a)extremely fast 2nd gas, maybe when cyber core is half done b)extremely low gateway count c)two stargates, or constant sair production or +1 (sometimes some people like Best and jaystar like to just make 5 corsairs or so though, but maintain ground armies) d)robotics facility obviously
(a.) is an interesting point, I'm not sure about that fast of a second gas, but it does make sense for a gas heavy build. Need protoss feedback.
(b)(c) are good signs if you can scout them. But usually P makes a fast dragoon as soon as core finishes to kill the overlord. A normal stargate build gets citadel at the same time and gets archive before putting down 4-5 gateways, it is unlikely that your overlord can live that long to see it. (b) can be false since your overlord will die before those gateways are put down at their normal timing, low gateway count at that time doesn't suggest much, (c) can be false since P can hide a second stargate elsewhere, so seeing 1 doesn't mean he will not have 2. P's build cannot be read that early for you to make a conscious decision of whether to make mutas or hydra first. The fastest scouting you can do is with your initial pair of scourge, but you would have already committed to either mutas or hydras at that time.
(d) robotics comes after stargate, for the same reason that your overlord won't live long enough to see it, you'll have to wait for scourge, and once again, you will have committed to either mutas or hydra already.
The good thing of going hydras first is that it's flexible vs all builds, where as going mutas first is riskier. However, there is a delayed muta first build that gets more lings early and use sunkens to defend, so Z can set up his nice econ with 5 hatch before making mutas, but that build gets a late hydra den, so once again the decision has to be made before scourge scouting. You pretty much have to go into a game with a particular strategy in mind, and then adapt afterward.
On March 11 2009 00:44 nosliw wrote: So is this a good counter to the 4 gate 2 archon build? I thought the timing on the 4 gate 2 archon is suppose to hit when hydra production just started.
A little while back Z gets more drones before switching to hydras, you typically see a 6th hatch going down featuring a fast 4th expo, before hydra production. The economy is better but it leaves Z vulnerable to the zeal/archon rush. After suffering some losses in the pro scene, Z became more modest with the drone powering. In the current build where we start hydra production at 40ish supply, Z should have enough hydras to counter that zeal/archon push.
On March 11 2009 00:03 18zotbob wrote: what you gonna do if P goes mass sair/reaver, you muta and scourge will just be wasted then you are forced to play mass hydra which he will just use reaver harass or even dt drop because your make all your lords stay in 1 group to avoid sair rape and that makes you vulnerable to DT drop in main. Then P can take more expos while harassing and mass to zeal/goon/ht. I find this build very annoying.
If he scouts sair/reaver he isn't going to make any mutalisks -_-
You just make maybe 6 scourge to try to pick off a few sairs early, or maybe snipe a shuttle above the robo if you are lucky. Then just get both hydra upgrades, get burrow, and take a 4th when you can. Just make sure you have lurkers in time for his ground follow up.
On March 11 2009 00:44 nosliw wrote: So is this a good counter to the 4 gate 2 archon build? I thought the timing on the 4 gate 2 archon is suppose to hit when hydra production just started.
lol..... hydras can come out alot faster and I mean ALOT faster, I can get like 15 hydras when you just have 5 zeals...
If you have that many hydra out when the P has that little of an army, you either have way too few drones, or your opponent is doing the BO wrong.
On March 11 2009 00:33 Superiorwolf wrote: a)extremely fast 2nd gas, maybe when cyber core is half done
(a.) is an interesting point, I'm not sure about that fast of a second gas, but it does make sense for a gas heavy build. Need protoss feedback.
For your usuall 4 gate archon/zeal attack you need your second gas as your expo completes or star it immediately after the nex completes. I dont think you can judge from that.
I just got raped by this a zillion times. It would really help if a protoss could write up a quick counter guide to this and more impotant how to scout wether he is going muta first or hydra first. It is a big decision in this build to morph your first templars or not and i seem to get it wrong more often the not.
Also replaysss of protoss winning this are very much appreciated.
On March 11 2009 00:33 Superiorwolf wrote: a)extremely fast 2nd gas, maybe when cyber core is half done
(a.) is an interesting point, I'm not sure about that fast of a second gas, but it does make sense for a gas heavy build. Need protoss feedback.
For your usuall 4 gate archon/zeal attack you need your second gas as your expo completes or star it immediately after the nex completes. I dont think you can judge from that.
Really? I don't think I often see gases that fast when they are going 4 gate 2 archon build. I'm pretty sure from watching replays that I see most people such as iefnaij not getting their gases nearly that fast.
And thanks lols for the corrections on some of my steps - obviously if you can manage to scout those things you should be fairly sure but it's not very likely from what you've stated
I personally got more help from these than the recommended threads on the strategy forum. Both of your guides need to be in the recommended zerg guides asap.
F91's games are all very great demonstrations of this playstyle, even with his not-so-perfect macro. A question I pose: lols, when you first were explaining this build on TL.net to me and others, you advocated getting three evolution chambers after starting the fifth hatchery. I am wondering where this idea has gone (it's been maybe 8 months since then)... is it because of the lack of gas, or is it to utilize as many drones as possible? As of currently I am continuing to get 2 evolution chambers, one for +1 missiles and one for +1 carapace. In order to do this while getting hydra upgrades and overlord speed in addition to regular upgrades, it forces me to get an earlier second gas. I've noticed that progamers like Jaedong don't really like getting the carapace, but I feel like carapace can be so useful in your transition to begin using zerglings, otherwise zealots can easily tear up pretty large amounts of zerglings. Granted your upgrades will still be behind his slightly, I think this is pretty beneficial. However, I have questions about how this affects the early or premidgame economy.
I think hyvaa's games are a pretty cool variation of this build, where he begins with a 9 pool speed (but he doesn't actually get speed, and instead saves the 100 gas for lair later) and forces the Protoss to make 2 cannons first. Once he kills the scout, the Protoss might not attempt to scout again soon because he'll assume you've gotten speed. This will force him to play much more cautiously and often Protosses will pull probes or add a cannon or two on top of their original two in order to be safe from zergling all-in. However, if he does decide to scout, he will notice your slow zerglings and will assume you have immediately made a Lair with that first 100 gas you mined, and thus will be very cautious about fast mutalisks or fast lurker drop, etc. So a lot of progamers responded with +1 air weapons and constant corsair production. In reality, hyvaa had been pumping drones and started his lair a little bit after his 3rd hatchery iirc, and played into a standard hydra/muta (often without the muta because of corsair threat of +1, which his build made the protosses do), but at the same time forced the protoss to play extremely defensively. It seems to sort of rely on the Protoss player not being too sure of going on, but I think it's pretty interesting and you/me should try it sometime vs the protosses in our clan.
Something by.hero likes to do is open with mutalisks and then go into lurkers. What are the advantages of lurkers over hydra/muta? It seems that it will defend well against any early types of attack, but may be vulnerable to harrassment. As well, as I figure and as you once told me, it forces the Zerg to play defensively and try to get a 4th, but otherwise give up a lot of map control. If so, why is it that hero prefers opening with lurkers every game? What are it's benefits? I'm thinking you may get faster upgrades, faster hive and/or better economy. Also 9 pool vs 9 overpool vs 12 hatch drone and mining efficiency tests as well as comparison tests to protoss responses to seeing those builds (ie nexus first, 2 cannons first, etc) and probe and mining efficiency rates, is it really that big of a difference from an overpool that just serves to deny scouts and a 12 hatch? I will should probably test it.
Just some questions I felt like asking... get on iccup at 7 PM PST ;D
On March 11 2009 00:33 Superiorwolf wrote: a)extremely fast 2nd gas, maybe when cyber core is half done
(a.) is an interesting point, I'm not sure about that fast of a second gas, but it does make sense for a gas heavy build. Need protoss feedback.
For your usuall 4 gate archon/zeal attack you need your second gas as your expo completes or star it immediately after the nex completes. I dont think you can judge from that.
Really? I don't think I often see gases that fast when they are going 4 gate 2 archon build. I'm pretty sure from watching replays that I see most people such as iefnaij not getting their gases nearly that fast.
Well, I wont say I'm 100% sure for I'm just C- and it's possible that I'm doing something wrong, but the guide that was here about the 4 gate 2 archon attack stated that you should get your second gas immediately after core finishes, but I still had a slight gas shortage, so I started getting it a bit earlier. Bottom line is - you need your second gas early. Pls correct me if I'm wrong.
About the hydra or muta first - Your corasair should be able to see it easily. If he chases you with scourge check his nat gas. If he has tacken it than muta first is very possible. But the easiest way is to just manuver your corasir around until you see what's hatching from the eggs.
On March 11 2009 07:53 Superiorwolf wrote: F91's games are all very great demonstrations of this playstyle, even with his not-so-perfect macro. A question I pose: lols, when you first were explaining this build on TL.net to me and others, you advocated getting three evolution chambers after starting the fifth hatchery. I am wondering where this idea has gone (it's been maybe 8 months since then)... is it because of the lack of gas, or is it to utilize as many drones as possible? As of currently I am continuing to get 2 evolution chambers, one for +1 missiles and one for +1 carapace. In order to do this while getting hydra upgrades and overlord speed in addition to regular upgrades, it forces me to get an earlier second gas. I've noticed that progamers like Jaedong don't really like getting the carapace, but I feel like carapace can be so useful in your transition to begin using zerglings, otherwise zealots can easily tear up pretty large amounts of zerglings. Granted your upgrades will still be behind his slightly, I think this is pretty beneficial. However, I have questions about how this affects the early or premidgame economy.
I think hyvaa's games are a pretty cool variation of this build, where he begins with a 9 pool speed (but he doesn't actually get speed, and instead saves the 100 gas for lair later) and forces the Protoss to make 2 cannons first. Once he kills the scout, the Protoss might not attempt to scout again soon because he'll assume you've gotten speed. This will force him to play much more cautiously and often Protosses will pull probes or add a cannon or two on top of their original two in order to be safe from zergling all-in. However, if he does decide to scout, he will notice your slow zerglings and will assume you have immediately made a Lair with that first 100 gas you mined, and thus will be very cautious about fast mutalisks or fast lurker drop, etc. So a lot of progamers responded with +1 air weapons and constant corsair production. In reality, hyvaa had been pumping drones and started his lair a little bit after his 3rd hatchery iirc, and played into a standard hydra/muta (often without the muta because of corsair threat of +1, which his build made the protosses do), but at the same time forced the protoss to play extremely defensively. It seems to sort of rely on the Protoss player not being too sure of going on, but I think it's pretty interesting and you/me should try it sometime vs the protosses in our clan.
Something by.hero likes to do is open with mutalisks and then go into lurkers. What are the advantages of lurkers over hydra/muta? It seems that it will defend well against any early types of attack, but may be vulnerable to harrassment. As well, as I figure and as you once told me, it forces the Zerg to play defensively and try to get a 4th, but otherwise give up a lot of map control. If so, why is it that hero prefers opening with lurkers every game? What are it's benefits? I'm thinking you may get faster upgrades, faster hive and/or better economy. Also 9 pool vs 9 overpool vs 12 hatch drone and mining efficiency tests as well as comparison tests to protoss responses to seeing those builds (ie nexus first, 2 cannons first, etc) and probe and mining efficiency rates, is it really that big of a difference from an overpool that just serves to deny scouts and a 12 hatch? I will should probably test it.
Just some questions I felt like asking... get on iccup at 7 PM PST ;D
The chamber question appears to be an evolution in ZvP theory over the past year or so. The build was first popularized by Jaedong when he defeated Bisu on bluestorm (back when Bisu was invincible vs Z). Bisu is known for his mass corsair builds so the build Jaedong initially designed was to counter sair/reaver. Also see Jaedong vs Stork on Fantasy II. Vs sair/reaver as long as you control the early sairs with scourge, you have no need for ground units until reaver comes out. Back then Z will get more drones and a 6 hatch before hydra production. I told you to get 3 chamber because it's what Jaedong did, better to copy first and analyze it later . After every Z started using that build, the P counter was the zeal/archon timing rush right when hydra production begins. Many less pro Z got raped on TV, then the build evolved to a more modest drone powering phase, Z stay on 5 hatch, gets only 1 chamber, and many hydras earlier to counter the zeal/archon push, and up to today the build seems to work fairly well. That is how I understand the changes.
Fake bos are fun but unless Jaedong starts to use it, I just wouldn't bother.
Lurkers are better than mutas in that they require no micro and provide a very good defense. I always make drones when I morph lurkers, knowing that those lurker will make my defense that much stronger so I need less other units to survive. Also, with mutas Z has to be the aggressor, sniping templars and engage right afterward when P has no storm, where as lurkers are rather old school teachings saying it's the P's job to kill Z, but not vice versa, so Z just has to grow larger and larger and he'll win if P cannot kill him in time.
Superior wolf, do you not think its worth it to keep all 3 of your upgrades going for most of the game? Lately I've been seeing alot of zergs adding their 3rd evo chamber at the same time as their 2nd one, to be able to change their unit composition in response to the Ps unit mix.
It seems like Z is too open to an almost pure goon/ht timing attack right around when hive finishes. Having the ability to get upgraded lings out around this time seems really helpful vs this, even if they are only at 2-1.
It seems like Z is too open to an almost pure goon/ht timing attack right around when hive finishes. Having the ability to get upgraded lings out around this time seems really helpful vs this, even if they are only at 2-1.
I'm taking a wild guess here saying that I think a goon/ht timing attack just after hive will be strong, but not impossible to deal with, because the ht's in that attack will only have energy for 1 storm each saved up.
I'm likely wrong about that point, but even so, because toss is going for a timing attack with goons just before swarm is ready, he really can't afford to not do a lot of damage, because then he is stuck with goons against swarm, so I guess what zerg can look for is the optimal position to engage the toss army (flank it against a wall or something), and also to try to fake in and out with your army from different angles to try to provoke some wasted storms. If you can't waste storms, you can at least delay the attack because ht's move slowly and he will have to wait for them otherwise you will snipe them from the rear. By the time he gets to where he wants to attack you should have a nice defense set up, and you should be blocking any reinforcements, and eventually you will have macroed an army bigger than his attacking force. If you trade armies, it's to zergs advantage, so really protoss must do damage or be behind.
/theorycrafting
EDIT: ok what I meant by 'he must do damage or be stuck with goons against swarm, is that he can't afford commit to making goons and then decide to retreat, meaning once he commits to making this attack, he must follow through with it
I play Starcraft since 1999 and used to be quite good once. I just recently starting to play on ICCUP again and made it to C+ last season. Maybe I could be slightly higher, but I'm trying to learn new things and strategies and learn the new maps thus I'm wasting a few games here and there.
Now, back to topic: I have the strong feeling - and I think backed up by evidence - that going for Mass Hydras + Speed is not the best follow-up for this build once the 5th hatch is in place for the following reasons:
1) Hydras are quite weak vs speed lots unless you have huge numbers 2) Hydras suck vs storms - in particular in huge numbers 3) If you upgrade +1 attack for hydras, this will set back your late game as you can't match the toss attack ups with armor, i.e. you can't to a switch to killer cracklings. 4) Sniping Temps with Mutas later works, but it is unrealiable - i.e. the toss can counter it fairly easily if he plays well, for example by getting *a lot* of temps, getting enough sairs / goons and in general just microing well. I have the feeling that sniping only works well if toss is overly aggressive.
Now, for reasons 1) and 2) there is usually a hard fight going on once toss moves out with speed lots, his first 2 temps and 1 archon. (or maybe even 4 temps if he feels bold). During this struggle, Zerg usually does not get a strong upper hand, it's rather a very contested fight. I would even say that Zerg is at a slight disadvantage here. This seems to be backed up by a lot of high class replays.
Therefore, apart from going for mutas (which works better but has other problems) I'm asking myself why people upgrade lurker aspect first (once den finishes) and go for lurk/ling/scourge instead of mass hydra. The upside of this is that we save some money and can set up 2 evos for melee attack and armor fairly soon (or maybe get the 1st evo sooner to match toss +1).
Now, we have a stronger army, are stronger vs storm and also have lurkers at hand to delay any expo attempts, defend our bases and possibly set up a contain. If we can exclude sair / reaver, then this style should be stronger against the standard sair to timing push build that toss does.
I have the following questions: i) if we want to match his +1, when should we get the 1st evo? (after spire, after 4th hatch, after 5th hatch?) ii) if we does go sair reaver, when will he have reaver and shuttle ready? I.e. say that we upgrade lurkers first from our den, but manage to pick up that he is going sair reaver through scouting later on, do we have sufficient time at hand to counter? (for example, getting hydra speed after lurker aspect, getting more scourge/muta, etc) I would assume that we do, but since sair reaver seems to be quite rare, others will know better.
On March 11 2009 16:30 hide.X wrote: I'm taking a wild guess here saying that I think a goon/ht timing attack just after hive will be strong, but not impossible to deal with, because the ht's in that attack will only have energy for 1 storm each saved up.
The templars will have at least 2 storms each. An army of 20 goons and 5 templars with some zealots is very strong due to the potential damage that can be done by 10 psy storms, more if P has the energy upgrade. The way P fights is to let the storms do most of the damage, before deciding whether he wants to commit his army for an attack. Usually if P unleashed all his storms and Z still has a lot of units, P will simply retreat and recharge his energy, and take almost no losses. If P used his storms and Z lost most of his army, that's when P will charge in and kill whatever he can.
There is no timing attack right before hive in ZvP, in almost every game there will be several fights before hive comes, while swarms are great for lurker defense, Z cannot rely on it like in ZvT.
On March 12 2009 01:56 Wayneman wrote: Now, back to topic: I have the strong feeling - and I think backed up by evidence - that going for Mass Hydras + Speed is not the best follow-up for this build once the 5th hatch is in place for the following reasons:
1) Hydras are quite weak vs speed lots unless you have huge numbers 2) Hydras suck vs storms - in particular in huge numbers 3) If you upgrade +1 attack for hydras, this will set back your late game as you can't match the toss attack ups with armor, i.e. you can't to a switch to killer cracklings. 4) Sniping Temps with Mutas later works, but it is unrealiable - i.e. the toss can counter it fairly easily if he plays well, for example by getting *a lot* of temps, getting enough sairs / goons and in general just microing well. I have the feeling that sniping only works well if toss is overly aggressive.
Now, for reasons 1) and 2) there is usually a hard fight going on once toss moves out with speed lots, his first 2 temps and 1 archon. (or maybe even 4 temps if he feels bold). During this struggle, Zerg usually does not get a strong upper hand, it's rather a very contested fight. I would even say that Zerg is at a slight disadvantage here. This seems to be backed up by a lot of high class replays.
The hydra/muta build in this guide is the currently most popular ZvP build around, many pros use it, and you can get the replay of F91 vs JF on destination right here on TL. I will not argue whether it's the best 5-hatch follow up or not, the popularity seems to speak for itself.
1) The very foundation of this build relies on mass hydra to kill zeal/archon, if you read the guide you will know that Z's hydra count is timed to counter P's unit count. So yes, Z will have "huge numbers" as that is what the build intends to get.
2) The point of the muta transition is designed to eliminate templars to remove the storm factor so hydra can rule, and the timing of the mutas is designed to nullify any aggression the P can have.
3) This is not a build that relies on cracklings. The +1 missile attack is good for hydras, and you will have +2 missile attack when you transition into hydra/lurker/ling. Lings are not the backbone of the Z army in this build, hydras and lurkers are, and you vastly underestimate the power of +2 attack lurkers.
4) Muta sniping in this build is a one time deal entirely based on timing. When mutas come out P will not have more than a few dragoons unless he intended to go pure goon/ht. Templar assassination at that particular timing is not difficult. Also for that timing, Z will have 50 upgraded +1 hydras to take map control immediately after the templars are gone. Afterwards Z will transition into hydra/lurker, and muta sniping becomes a bonus instead of a requirement as the game no longer relies on it.
I will agree with you that mutas are unreliable, as much depends on micro. But with any strategy that uses mutas, that unreliable factor has to be considered. Even in ZvT if your muta harass is inefficient, Z will fall behind. That doesn't mean the strategy of the build is flawed. It is simply micro skills and a certain degree of luck.
I don't know how to stress the importance of timing any clearer. If P moves out with 2 archons and some speelots, he will find 30 some hydras + a few speedlings ready to defend, that is the whole point of the hydra play portion of this build. As I said in the guide, which I suspect you did not read, I said that in case P did not morph archons, Z should simply assume a defensive position until mutas come out. While Z will not attack the P when he has a few storms, P at that particular timing does not have enough units to attack Z either. 15ish zealots and 4 templars are great in an open field, but if P charges into Z's nat and gets pinned on the cliff by a perfect surround, it will be a one sided slaughter with Z coming on top.
You claim that Z's "disadvantage" at the particular timing when P moves out with 1 archon 2 templars and some zealots is backed up by high class replays. With all respect, please share the replays with us.
I will conclude by emphasizing that this a guide on the hydra/muta build, it is one strategy out of many possibilities in ZvP, and I would appreciate it if you will limit your discussion on issues relevant to this build only. Lurker builds may be great, but they are outside of the scope of our discussion here. As are mass corsair builds, against which Z will use different strategies.
@w3jjjj First of all, thanks for the long reply. Please don't misunderstand me, I did not intend to challenge the strategy in itself, I would just like to understand in better. In particular, I want to understand why the pros are doing it as is, i.e. so hydra heavy.
Now, with regards to replays, one example would be the recent Dreiven vs F91 replay in ths replay section here. There are lots other - I'm not saying that Z loses all those games, but in general, toss army with storms > mass hydras (if the game until then has been going on evenly).
I of course read the guide you gave - and it's great. The strategy works well and is very strong. This though does not mean that an alternative take can't be stronger. Currently, I'd suspect that the main reason why Korean pros go so hydra heavy is that mass sair / dt or mass sair / reaver is far more popular among Korean top players than on average. I would assume that if that was not the case, going for lurks instead of speed hydrs once den is done would be the standard.
I don't want to divert too much from the strategy though. So say Toss goes temp heavy, we take a defensive position until mutas come out. As I see it - though I'll have to try it out of course - is that this will give toss an easy 3rd base. So he'll grab a 3rd base and be able to mass up even more of an army which will make our hydras comparatively weaker. So if we can't stop the toss 3rd, we'll head for a mass fight with lots of hydras vs a large toss army which we will have a lot of trouble with.
On March 12 2009 06:06 w3jjjj wrote: The templars will have at least 2 storms each. An army of 20 goons and 5 templars with some zealots is very strong due to the potential damage that can be done by 10 psy storms, more if P has the energy upgrade. The way P fights is to let the storms do most of the damage, before deciding whether he wants to commit his army for an attack. Usually if P unleashed all his storms and Z still has a lot of units, P will simply retreat and recharge his energy, and take almost no losses. If P used his storms and Z lost most of his army, that's when P will charge in and kill whatever he can.
There is no timing attack right before hive in ZvP, in almost every game there will be several fights before hive comes, while swarms are great for lurker defense, Z cannot rely on it like in ZvT.game no longer relies on it.
I didn't mean it in the traditional sense of a timing attack. I just meant that it seems like a common timing where P has been crushing zergs using hydra/lurk lately. I remember jangbi vs some zerg on colosseum, where he was down a few bases, and it seemed like the game was about slip out of his hands, but he had been building a very dragoon/ht heavy army, and absolutely rolled the zerg before he could get his defilers out.
It's also been happening repeatedly to me on iccup, I've had multiple games slip away from me where it seems like almost no amount of hydra/lurk will stop a big goon/ht army. Lately I've seen some reps of zergs who are going back to 3evos, so they can readily switch to a more ling heavy army to combat a P army with this specific unit composition.
Do you think it's worth it to play a style like this, or should hydra/lurk be enough?
You suuure you read it? You keep saying hydras are weak to storm when the purpose of this build is to get a lot of hydras, and then KILL THE TEMPLARS. I'm not going to reply to the part about taking his third because obviously you read the guide, and obviously read the part about protoss taking his 3rd.
On March 12 2009 07:05 Wayneman wrote: I of course read the guide you gave - and it's great. The strategy works well and is very strong. This though does not mean that an alternative take can't be stronger. Currently, I'd suspect that the main reason why Korean pros go so hydra heavy is that mass sair / dt or mass sair / reaver is far more popular among Korean top players than on average. I would assume that if that was not the case, going for lurks instead of speed hydrs once den is done would be the standard.
I don't want to divert too much from the strategy though. So say Toss goes temp heavy, we take a defensive position until mutas come out. As I see it - though I'll have to try it out of course - is that this will give toss an easy 3rd base. So he'll grab a 3rd base and be able to mass up even more of an army which will make our hydras comparatively weaker. So if we can't stop the toss 3rd, we'll head for a mass fight with lots of hydras vs a large toss army which we will have a lot of trouble with.
You have a good point in that Koreans do use corsair heavy builds more often, so that most Z will start off with hydras for flexibility. As to whether lurker builds will be used more often without corsairs, looking into the past we see savior going fast lurkers quite often with great success before he ran into bisu, so I think it is definitely possible, but no one can quite predict where the future is going.
I mentioned in the guide that P will almost certainly take a fast third if he did not morph archons. I also suggested that Z immediately go mutas to see if he can take out the templars before cannons finish, if so Z will have a lead as the hydras can take out that expansion, if not then at least Z will have map control, try to pick off templars and don't let P transfer probes, meanwhile make drones for our 4th expo to catch up in econ.
On March 12 2009 08:02 sixghost wrote: I didn't mean it in the traditional sense of a timing attack. I just meant that it seems like a common timing where P has been crushing zergs using hydra/lurk lately. I remember jangbi vs some zerg on colosseum, where he was down a few bases, and it seemed like the game was about slip out of his hands, but he had been building a very dragoon/ht heavy army, and absolutely rolled the zerg before he could get his defilers out.
I think the best counter to mass goons is your basic mass hydra/ling as I stated in the guide. If possible, 3 chamber mass hydra/ling is best, but in those pro games the Z may not necessarily have the option for that switch cuz they may have already committed to heavy lurker/ling, and a switch to hydra/ling may not be viable due to resource constrains.
Just as a small tip for zergs. When switching to mutas while doing this I find that it is worth it to trap 1 ling behind your minerals or in another spot where you just need 1 zergling to block another zergling, so that you can group it together with your mutas, it will give you less of a hassle as speed upgraded overlords move a bit to fast.
On March 12 2009 08:20 Supah wrote: Just as a small tip for zergs. When switching to mutas while doing this I find that it is worth it to trap 1 ling behind your minerals or in another spot where you just need 1 zergling to block another zergling, so that you can group it together with your mutas, it will give you less of a hassle as speed upgraded overlords move a bit to fast.
Oh wow good idea, I have been wondering a good method for stacking mutas with ovie speed already done. Thanks.
What strategy do you use if there is no 3rd gas at the 3rd base? If been playing around with this build a lot but can't find something that I feel comfortable with. Pure Hydra Ling Scourge I usually lose map control to storm in the mid game and also I can't seem to stop toss from taking the 3rd quite easily.
I've been having trouble vs Koreans doing the 3 hatch muta into hydra build, but instead of going up to 5 hatches before hydra, they go up to 7 and take a 4th (on colosseum 2). It's a god damned nightmare.
You should add some notes on when as Z you can abuse the early game macro window to this extent - which is vs just about any build on colosseum 2, for example.
On March 19 2009 22:19 Wayneman wrote: Very simple question @OP:
What strategy do you use if there is no 3rd gas at the 3rd base? If been playing around with this build a lot but can't find something that I feel comfortable with. Pure Hydra Ling Scourge I usually lose map control to storm in the mid game and also I can't seem to stop toss from taking the 3rd quite easily.
Use a different build, XD. Builds are map dependent.
For example, on bluestorm, you should always play lurker camp in the middle, so all the expos on your side is protected.
On March 20 2009 00:39 Louder wrote: I've been having trouble vs Koreans doing the 3 hatch muta into hydra build, but instead of going up to 5 hatches before hydra, they go up to 7 and take a 4th (on colosseum 2). It's a god damned nightmare.
You should add some notes on when as Z you can abuse the early game macro window to this extent - which is vs just about any build on colosseum 2, for example.
7 hatch is greedy, I've seen 6 before. Your best bet is 2 stargate sair/reaver to contest air control and do eco damage direct to punish his over expand. Alternatively an old school no stargate +1 timing attack also works, since the attack comes much quicker it will force mutas on 4 hatch, not allowing him to over expand.
The amount of workers you get is based on the strategy you intend to use, it is not always the more the better... In the hydra/muta, timing is critical, making extra drones early will delay hydras, which will defeat the very purpose of this build.
ok ive tried this build a few times today on icc at the D+ level with mixed results. im just wondering when should you get hive and should you always get 2 more evos for melee + carapace to prepare to late game?
sometimes i just get lazy and go for 0-2 ultras with hydras but this doesnt work so well T.T
On March 21 2009 09:23 ZidaneTribal wrote: ok ive tried this build a few times today on icc at the D+ level with mixed results. im just wondering when should you get hive and should you always get 2 more evos for melee + carapace to prepare to late game?
sometimes i just get lazy and go for 0-2 ultras with hydras but this doesnt work so well T.T
After mutas, get lurker up, get chambers for melee and carapace, and then go hive.
You do need to get 2 more chambers to catch up melee and carapace. You don't want to be too much behind in ups. Ultras aren't so great without upgrades. I would usually play lurker/hydra/ling to get more expos and make ultras after most of the upgrades are done, definitely both ultra ups.
"Go watch F91 vs JF on destination, that's where I learned this build in the first place... "
Haha yeah thats the same game that inspired me to start doing this build, the ownage in that game was just too beautiful =) thanks a lot, great writeup
about the lurker discussion, if I remember correctly in the msl finals lux used a 3 hatch into spire and then went for lurker ling, especially in game 1 he shows how amazingly strong zerg defense can be I also generally think that luxury and yarnc tend to go with lurkers instead of hydras more often than Jaedong
On March 26 2009 00:16 7mk wrote: I also generally think that luxury and yarnc tend to go with lurkers instead of hydras more often than Jaedong
Jaedong > twins, copy the better player first, figure out the reasoning later, that's what I would do lol.
Being the better player don`t need to equal the best build choices for us foreigners or even for other pro Zergs. Just because jaedong can play a ZvT style relying totally on his mutas keeping pretty large amount of MnMs from being able to attack does not mean that you and me or other foreigners can pull of the same kind of build with a high success rate. Figuring out the reasons for the builds and how it works should be done first
On March 26 2009 00:16 7mk wrote: I also generally think that luxury and yarnc tend to go with lurkers instead of hydras more often than Jaedong
Jaedong > twins, copy the better player first, figure out the reasoning later, that's what I would do lol.
Being the better player don`t need to equal the best build choices for us foreigners or even for other pro Zergs. Just because jaedong can play a ZvT style relying totally on his mutas keeping pretty large amount of MnMs from being able to attack does not mean that you and me or other foreigners can pull of the same kind of build with a high success rate. Figuring out the reasons for the builds and how it works should be done first
Heh, true, even pro zergs have trouble copying Jaedong. On the other hand, while our execution is inferior, our opponents are not the likes of Bisu either, so it evens out.
On March 26 2009 00:16 7mk wrote: I also generally think that luxury and yarnc tend to go with lurkers instead of hydras more often than Jaedong
Jaedong > twins, copy the better player first, figure out the reasoning later, that's what I would do lol.
Being the better player don`t need to equal the best build choices for us foreigners or even for other pro Zergs. Just because jaedong can play a ZvT style relying totally on his mutas keeping pretty large amount of MnMs from being able to attack does not mean that you and me or other foreigners can pull of the same kind of build with a high success rate. Figuring out the reasons for the builds and how it works should be done first
Indeed and I mean Jaedong could also still win against pros if he uses suboptimal builds, best example would be ZvZ - even if his opponents build order "counters" his, he still usually wins the game cause he's just so freaking good. I would also argue that it partly just has to do with personal style,some people preferring to play defense with a lot of lurkers, some prefering to play really aggressive ala f91 etc.
For now I'm gonna stick with this build though as I'm still doing a million mistakes with this one =)
Nice post sMI.lols! Btw the guy who made this OP=gosu B+ gamer on ICCUP last season for anyone who didn't know.
And as a P player I'd like to interject that muta first is definitely not an all-in build as someone suggested it was above. This new muta into hydra thing can be pretty hard to deal with because making sairs takes gas away from making reavers/hts and with hydra/muta/scourge it can be hard to even make good use of the sairs. And having mutas snipe your templars followed by a 1a2a3a4s of hydras (z can use this key combo too, not just for P players anymore!) can be pretty frustrating.
I guess one could try combating the mutalisks without making mass sairs but if you do that it is very hard to stop the muta sniping. Perhaps Dark Arcons with mael is the answer... I'll have to try that out.
Perhaps Dark Arcons with mael is the answer... I'll have to try that out.
I've always wondered why P players never do that (I know it's been done, but never to me personally). It just seems like such a simple counter... you can't really snipe the DA and it's very easy to get the mael off (e, left click muta), then a storm and the Z is in a world of hurt...
On March 26 2009 14:13 Jonoman92 wrote: Nice post sMI.lols! Btw the guy who made this OP=gosu B+ gamer on ICCUP last season for anyone who didn't know.
And as a P player I'd like to interject that muta first is definitely not an all-in build as someone suggested it was above. This new muta into hydra thing can be pretty hard to deal with because making sairs takes gas away from making reavers/hts and with hydra/muta/scourge it can be hard to even make good use of the sairs. And having mutas snipe your templars followed by a 1a2a3a4s of hydras (z can use this key combo too, not just for P players anymore!) can be pretty frustrating.
I guess one could try combating the mutalisks without making mass sairs but if you do that it is very hard to stop the muta sniping. Perhaps Dark Arcons with mael is the answer... I'll have to try that out.
a counter i'm having trouble with is dark/sair-> sneak fast 3rd gas with map control->goon/temp hard to snipe temps when there are 2 groups of goons around damnit ray T_T
On March 26 2009 14:13 Jonoman92 wrote: Nice post sMI.lols! Btw the guy who made this OP=gosu B+ gamer on ICCUP last season for anyone who didn't know.
And as a P player I'd like to interject that muta first is definitely not an all-in build as someone suggested it was above. This new muta into hydra thing can be pretty hard to deal with because making sairs takes gas away from making reavers/hts and with hydra/muta/scourge it can be hard to even make good use of the sairs. And having mutas snipe your templars followed by a 1a2a3a4s of hydras (z can use this key combo too, not just for P players anymore!) can be pretty frustrating.
I guess one could try combating the mutalisks without making mass sairs but if you do that it is very hard to stop the muta sniping. Perhaps Dark Arcons with mael is the answer... I'll have to try that out.
a counter i'm having trouble with is dark/sair-> sneak fast 3rd gas with map control->goon/temp hard to snipe temps when there are 2 groups of goons around damnit ray T_T
Wasting gas on both dts and sairs he shouldn't be able to defend his new expansion against a hydra break? Unless there's some thin ramp guarding it. Or maybe 'sneak' is implying that you don't know about it, then the key is simply scouting more with zerglings.
On March 26 2009 14:13 Jonoman92 wrote: Nice post sMI.lols! Btw the guy who made this OP=gosu B+ gamer on ICCUP last season for anyone who didn't know.
And as a P player I'd like to interject that muta first is definitely not an all-in build as someone suggested it was above. This new muta into hydra thing can be pretty hard to deal with because making sairs takes gas away from making reavers/hts and with hydra/muta/scourge it can be hard to even make good use of the sairs. And having mutas snipe your templars followed by a 1a2a3a4s of hydras (z can use this key combo too, not just for P players anymore!) can be pretty frustrating.
I guess one could try combating the mutalisks without making mass sairs but if you do that it is very hard to stop the muta sniping. Perhaps Dark Arcons with mael is the answer... I'll have to try that out.
a counter i'm having trouble with is dark/sair-> sneak fast 3rd gas with map control->goon/temp hard to snipe temps when there are 2 groups of goons around damnit ray T_T
Wasting gas on both dts and sairs he shouldn't be able to defend his new expansion against a hydra break? Unless there's some thin ramp guarding it. Or maybe 'sneak' is implying that you don't know about it, then the key is simply scouting more with zerglings.
well it's around when his DTs are out before i have overlord speed (i get it pretty late so i can have more fun w/ mutas)
Oh, you're opening with mutas. Of course you're getting butt raped by the bisu build then, it's what it was meant to counter.
That sentence also gives me a chilling suspicion that you are delaying overlord speed just to stack your mutalisks with an overlord. If you are, I have a solution for you - stack your mutalisks with a trapped zergling. Normally you can wall in a zergling with minerals on three sides and another zergling on the last side.
Edit: On a second thought the threat of a backstab should allowed them to get away with that exp vs hydra openings too. I sugest a macro counter. One good thing with people who open sairs is that they normally have weak air defense in their main and nat, so if you can get their sairs down a muta switch can deal damage to their eco too.
what about fast cracklings+ defliers like in best vs july all star race game seems stronger to me they tear building to shreds in seconds .are more moblie and very cheap and easy to mass up. also u have ultra up grades so what i think is best is just a enough to defend vs speedlots storms while gettin sorta fast hive
On March 26 2009 00:16 7mk wrote: I also generally think that luxury and yarnc tend to go with lurkers instead of hydras more often than Jaedong
Jaedong > twins, copy the better player first, figure out the reasoning later, that's what I would do lol.
Being the better player don`t need to equal the best build choices for us foreigners or even for other pro Zergs. Just because jaedong can play a ZvT style relying totally on his mutas keeping pretty large amount of MnMs from being able to attack does not mean that you and me or other foreigners can pull of the same kind of build with a high success rate. Figuring out the reasons for the builds and how it works should be done first
Indeed and I mean Jaedong could also still win against pros if he uses suboptimal builds, best example would be ZvZ - even if his opponents build order "counters" his, he still usually wins the game cause he's just so freaking good. I would also argue that it partly just has to do with personal style,some people preferring to play defense with a lot of lurkers, some prefering to play really aggressive ala f91 etc.
For now I'm gonna stick with this build though as I'm still doing a million mistakes with this one =)
Jaedong wins in ZvZ so much not only because his micro is ridiculous, but also because he has a better understanding of the game. Although the ZvZ build fight is relevant, Jaedong has shown that each build has pros and cons that can be used to an advantage with small timing windows. The rock-paper-scissors nature of ZvZ has diminished more and more since Jaedong has come to the scene, and not only for Jaedong either.
Sorry to bump this thread, I didn't want to make a whole thread for one question and my question pertains to this build.
I usually win almost effortlessly when this build goes right, i.e. when I get two control groups of hydras out and deny the third, kill the third, and/or set up a lurker contain.
I really had trouble today on Iccup against low D+ level protoss players who were doing early zealot pressure. The first part of my problem is that I am bad at reading what I scout, and also that at low level toss will occasionally do stupid things that don't make sense and I act on it as if it were a better player. I lost a few games because I saw a really early forge or early gateways, skipped the fourth and fifth hatch, got second gas early, and went mutas, only to have him mass corsairs and not do an early push.
The last game I played was against a D+ guy who I did standard 5 hatch hydra --> muta build against on destination. I killed his first scouting probe and didn't let any more probes get out. I had my six lings outside the bridges, an overlord over them watching forge, and an overlord in his main. He went standard core into stargate. I moved the overlord away when he started the stargate. Right after I built the fourth hatch at 32 supply, he pushed out with four zealots. I immediately put a creep at my natural and my third and started building four more zerglings (I was trying not to overdo it, as it was four zealots and it was possible he was just trying to force sunkens and wouldn't even attack). Unfortunately he rallied his gates to my third and kept non-stop producing zealots. He killed the sunken right as it finished and killed the initial lings I had. I kept making more and eventually stopped his attack, but he managed to kill the third, it had barely been able to mine anything.
If I were really good I would have found a way to scout and see if he was intending to sit back and macro or press it further. I ended up just sending two control groups of hydras to his third, his army was there so I just retreated. I just tried to drone up while taking the fourth and retaking the third in addition to teching to lurkers (skipped hydra range when I realized he was committing to zealot heavy army and when I saw he already had high templar). I started massing lings to save gas for lurkers. At some point he brought his army back and killed the third again. I knew I pretty much lost here, I ended up trying some hopeless shit with my army, we managed to trade armies, but his next attack went straight to my only remaining third gas and the hatch was down before I could kill his units, I gged right there.
Aside from whatever mechanical mistakes I make, I think my problem is I'm missing understanding toward a certain aspect of this matchup. For instance I tried doing the 4 gate 2 archon build to see what it was like for the other side, and was astonished how much mineral and gas protoss gets off of two base. In the game I mentioned, I assumed he couldn't make as many zealots as early as he did and still have corsairs and high templar out as fast as he did. I've lost other games where I've killed/forced a cancel on the protoss' third gas twice, then just got rolled over. In the recent Liquibition, where F91 lost the first time to Nony, I was amazed that F91 was able to pick off something like eight High Templar, and then just get rolled over anyway. When mass hydra doesn't win the game, I usually go into lurker contain. I have no idea what to do when I can't get a lurker contain set up and there is a mid/late game protoss blob of zealots, dragoons, and templar/archons moving around the map. Is it as simple as ensuring I don't lose my bases and macroing as much as possible? Is it ever acceptable to let the toss keep his third gas? I always feel like that is going to lose me the game if he keeps it up for too long.
You are not supposed to win at the hydra stage, the points is denying his third and gain map control. If you fail to deny his third, you still want the second benefit of map control, snipe hts and go lurker hydra. P's early army is weak without hts. Vs late game army with many goons, you just have to mass as many units as you can. A lurker field can absorb many storms, then you throw everything at him for a surround when his energy is low, all comes down to whether you produced enough units, there is no other way around it.
As for reading builds, yea it's hard if your opponent does weird stuff. Just watch the rep and study the strat afterward, and make sure you don't lose to the same trick more than once.
On March 28 2009 21:22 ZerG~LegenD wrote: Oh, you're opening with mutas. Of course you're getting butt raped by the bisu build then, it's what it was meant to counter.
That sentence also gives me a chilling suspicion that you are delaying overlord speed just to stack your mutalisks with an overlord. If you are, I have a solution for you - stack your mutalisks with a trapped zergling. Normally you can wall in a zergling with minerals on three sides and another zergling on the last side.
Edit: On a second thought the threat of a backstab should allowed them to get away with that exp vs hydra openings too. I sugest a macro counter. One good thing with people who open sairs is that they normally have weak air defense in their main and nat, so if you can get their sairs down a muta switch can deal damage to their eco too.
no no no, saracen does not open with mutas. he does the standard spire-drone-hydra build, but i counter it with sair/dt harassment into speedzealot/high templar --> 3rd base expo style. it lets me have map control while potentially doing some damage as well. it's kind of hard to explain it. dan, upload a good rep where i do it vs you or something. nobody can help you really if you don't, as you can see here.
On March 31 2009 14:32 scwizard wrote: Good read. Do you have any notes regarding specific maps?
Interesting question. Well, I'm thinking about revising the guide a little when I get the time, I've been practicing this build and more precision came to light, so I'll give my thoughts on maps in the revision.
Yeah, I asked because you talk about cross positions and stuff in your posts in the thread and also the build is about map control and denying a third specifically. Denying a third is something that can be very map specific.
I'm not a Z, but when I play a friend of mine who uses this build (well, not exactly the same, but similar. A variation of this.) he aways has a sunk ready for this kind of shit. The sunk also denys (for the most part) dt harassment.
the standard for protoss against this build is to assert early pressure. the earlier the better because that will force you to stop making drones. if the protoss player sits back and lets you mass up drones you will crush him in the mid game. so the supply works out as such that right around 27-30 you need to make 6-8 more zerglings to stop the 4-5 zealots he will send out. that is dependent obviously on you not losing the first 6 lings you have which you shouldn't lose because hold position/speed should be pretty hard to lose 1 unless you have bad control.
i don't care what anyone says there is no reason to make sunkens in ZvP. its a waste of minerals & and drone and it doesn't scale for shit 1 sunken costs 175 plus however many minerals that drone would have mined. so if you're talking about a drone from your 3rd which is likely where most zerg players throw a sunken up and you won't have goo saturation their for awhile you're talking about missing out on probably hundreds of minerals because you made a sunken.
So instead of sacrificing one drone for a sunk you sacrifice 3 for lings. + the sunk is better against dts. Like I sad, not Z, just saying. Could be wrong.
On March 28 2009 21:22 ZerG~LegenD wrote: Oh, you're opening with mutas. Of course you're getting butt raped by the bisu build then, it's what it was meant to counter.
That sentence also gives me a chilling suspicion that you are delaying overlord speed just to stack your mutalisks with an overlord. If you are, I have a solution for you - stack your mutalisks with a trapped zergling. Normally you can wall in a zergling with minerals on three sides and another zergling on the last side.
Edit: On a second thought the threat of a backstab should allowed them to get away with that exp vs hydra openings too. I sugest a macro counter. One good thing with people who open sairs is that they normally have weak air defense in their main and nat, so if you can get their sairs down a muta switch can deal damage to their eco too.
no no no, saracen does not open with mutas. he does the standard spire-drone-hydra build, but i counter it with sair/dt harassment into speedzealot/high templar --> 3rd base expo style. it lets me have map control while potentially doing some damage as well. it's kind of hard to explain it. dan, upload a good rep where i do it vs you or something. nobody can help you really if you don't, as you can see here.
I knew that, read the edit. That's his piece of advice. Quite generic indeed but it's correct none the less. What you need versus expanding protosses is drones, lots of them - and hatches of course. I think this is a huge part of his problem.
On March 28 2009 21:22 ZerG~LegenD wrote: Oh, you're opening with mutas. Of course you're getting butt raped by the bisu build then, it's what it was meant to counter.
That sentence also gives me a chilling suspicion that you are delaying overlord speed just to stack your mutalisks with an overlord. If you are, I have a solution for you - stack your mutalisks with a trapped zergling. Normally you can wall in a zergling with minerals on three sides and another zergling on the last side.
Edit: On a second thought the threat of a backstab should allowed them to get away with that exp vs hydra openings too. I sugest a macro counter. One good thing with people who open sairs is that they normally have weak air defense in their main and nat, so if you can get their sairs down a muta switch can deal damage to their eco too.
no no no, saracen does not open with mutas. he does the standard spire-drone-hydra build, but i counter it with sair/dt harassment into speedzealot/high templar --> 3rd base expo style. it lets me have map control while potentially doing some damage as well. it's kind of hard to explain it. dan, upload a good rep where i do it vs you or something. nobody can help you really if you don't, as you can see here.
I knew that, read the edit. That's his piece of advice. Quite generic indeed but it's correct none the less. What you need versus expanding protosses is drones, lots of them - and hatches of course. I think this is a huge part of his problem.
but isn't that what this build was designed to counter through agression (a fast third)? if i were to do that (macro up heavily), wouldn't i be better off going lurkerling or something?
On March 31 2009 19:44 niin wrote: the standard for protoss against this build is to assert early pressure. the earlier the better because that will force you to stop making drones. if the protoss player sits back and lets you mass up drones you will crush him in the mid game. so the supply works out as such that right around 27-30 you need to make 6-8 more zerglings to stop the 4-5 zealots he will send out. that is dependent obviously on you not losing the first 6 lings you have which you shouldn't lose because hold position/speed should be pretty hard to lose 1 unless you have bad control.
I have a habit of making 12 speedlings + 1 sunken for early defense, usually P doesn't make too many zealots and lings are enough to control the map, but even 4-5 zealots pose no threats at all with the help of a sunken.
A sunken is good for 2 reasons. First, it's good defense vs DTs. Z must be aggressive with this build so his hydras cannot sit back at expos for defense, and since you have no units for defense, you must have a sunken or DTs will kill you. Secondly, in early game the amount of larva is limited and 1 drone for a sunken is better than 3 larva for additional lings, it will lower your hydra count. Plus, the cost of the sunken has been factored into the build already, so Z is not really losing money...the sunken is not forced by pressure, it is part of the build.
If P does not make many zealots early and my lings can control him, I will delay the sunken until DTs come out, and I have pretty good timing sense to get it up in time, but lower level players who have less accurate timing may want to build it a little earlier just in case.
On March 31 2009 23:47 Zerg_Sasuke wrote: I dont know why but sometimes it works and sometimes this build totally fails , like without reason.. leaving me look like a total noob T_T
If by fail you mean your hydras lose the first battle vs zeal/archon, I have a pretty good idea of what went wrong. First check your macro, you must produce enough units for this build to be effective, second, some P players are bold and they skip cannons for earlier gateways, if you make only scourge then P gets lucky and pumps a lot more units, but if Z made mutas P will take a lot of damage. I will explain the complications in the guide when I get time to revise it.
On March 31 2009 22:13 Saracen wrote: but isn't that what this build was designed to counter through agression (a fast third)? if i were to do that (macro up heavily), wouldn't i be better off going lurkerling or something?
Yes, you are right. But I think what Zerg-legend is saying is that just in case if P gets a third up, then you respond by getting more drones and hatches, which is correct.
If by fail you mean your hydras lose the first battle vs zeal/archon, I have a pretty good idea of what went wrong. First check your macro, you must produce enough units for this build to be effective, second, some P players are bold and they skip cannons for earlier gateways, if you make only scourge then P gets lucky and pumps a lot more units, but if Z made mutas P will take a lot of damage. I will explain the complications in the guide when I get time to revise it.
Yeah. I remember a game(mb ill find a rep later ) where I snucked 4 lings from my first 6 ( after overpool ) into his main cuz he made only 1 canon . This killed a few probes , cost him much mining time and forced a canon in main. After this I had to be completely ahead, my macro was 100 % good for 5 hatch hydra.
After a while he tried to get 3rd so I went ahead with all my hydra ( was like 3-4 gropus ) and there was a first wtf battle , I dodged almost all storms ( 5-7 hydra died ) and yet his alone 2 archon zeala army destroyed all my hydra like nothing ....gg
I even posted it on gg.net but noone could help me T.T
On March 31 2009 22:13 Saracen wrote: but isn't that what this build was designed to counter through agression (a fast third)? if i were to do that (macro up heavily), wouldn't i be better off going lurkerling or something?
Yes, you are right.
I'd like to disagree. On certain maps, like Destination, this build cannot stop Protoss from getting his third up. Though it can put pressure and force defences, and that without dedicating yourself to aggression. Sometimes you can deny his third too, but sometimes you can't and then you mustn't try to. The great strength of this build is its ability to play against all Protoss openings
@OP: Can you take a look at the game between Nony and F91 on Tau Cross that was played during the last liquibition? This seems to be typical of some of the games I have with this build. Once the toss does have a mid-sized army I find it very hard to retain map control as his army is simply stronger than mine. Thus, if we can't stop his 3rd - and we get up our 4th (even before his 3rd is done) and still find it extremely hard to play on from there.
This leads me to question: Is there a good strategy for Zerg that revolves around playing rather defensively and macro oriented? I.e. where we won't even try to put too much pressure on him early on, and where we will actually allow him to take his 3rd uncontested, yet expand more strongly ourselves. What I tried was using basically the same build as you describe, however, I get lurker aspect from the den asap and upgrade armor instead of ranged attacks to transition into a defensive mass expo lurker crackling build.
P.S.: don't know if it matters, but I'm between C and C+
On April 01 2009 19:53 Wayneman wrote: @OP: Can you take a look at the game between Nony and F91 on Tau Cross that was played during the last liquibition? This seems to be typical of some of the games I have with this build. Once the toss does have a mid-sized army I find it very hard to retain map control as his army is simply stronger than mine. Thus, if we can't stop his 3rd - and we get up our 4th (even before his 3rd is done) and still find it extremely hard to play on from there.
This leads me to question: Is there a good strategy for Zerg that revolves around playing rather defensively and macro oriented? I.e. where we won't even try to put too much pressure on him early on, and where we will actually allow him to take his 3rd uncontested, yet expand more strongly ourselves. What I tried was using basically the same build as you describe, however, I get lurker aspect from the den asap and upgrade armor instead of ranged attacks to transition into a defensive mass expo lurker crackling build.
P.S.: don't know if it matters, but I'm between C and C+
Watch the MSL finals between Lux and Jangbi. There he goes 3 hat spire 5 hat. But he gets fast uppgrades and camps on 3 bases with a LOT of lings and some lurkers to defend. Then he goes fast hive to ultras and cracklings.
On April 01 2009 19:53 Wayneman wrote: @OP: Can you take a look at the game between Nony and F91 on Tau Cross that was played during the last liquibition? This seems to be typical of some of the games I have with this build. Once the toss does have a mid-sized army I find it very hard to retain map control as his army is simply stronger than mine. Thus, if we can't stop his 3rd - and we get up our 4th (even before his 3rd is done) and still find it extremely hard to play on from there.
That game was F91's loss on mis-micro. First he didn't eliminate all the templars before bringing in his hydra army, then in panic trying to pick off those templars he losses all his mutas to archons, and without muta support, Nony's zeal/archon/ht army just ran him over. You will see that before battle F91 had 101 supply and Nony at 104, after the battle F91 had 44 supply and Nony still at 104, that's 56 supply worth of units lost for nothing, that kind of mistake will cost you the game no matter what build you use.
Had F91 picked off all the templars before the fight, the result of that battle could have been completely different.
On April 01 2009 19:53 Wayneman wrote: This leads me to question: Is there a good strategy for Zerg that revolves around playing rather defensively and macro oriented? I.e. where we won't even try to put too much pressure on him early on, and where we will actually allow him to take his 3rd uncontested, yet expand more strongly ourselves. What I tried was using basically the same build as you describe, however, I get lurker aspect from the den asap and upgrade armor instead of ranged attacks to transition into a defensive mass expo lurker crackling build.
Yes, there are plenty of good lurker builds for stronger macro and less map control. However, this thread is for the hydra/muta build, we know there are plenty of alternatives, but we will not focus our discussion on them.
On April 01 2009 19:16 ZerG~LegenD wrote: I'd like to disagree. On certain maps, like Destination, this build cannot stop Protoss from getting his third up. Though it can put pressure and force defences, and that without dedicating yourself to aggression. Sometimes you can deny his third too, but sometimes you can't and then you mustn't try to. The great strength of this build is its ability to play against all Protoss openings
Aggression is interpreted differently by different players. I'm an overall defensive player, and anything that involves early pressure and putting your army in your opponent's half of the map is considered to be aggressive by me. I'm not saying you must try to stop P's third, just fighting for map control and putting P on the defensive is aggressive play to me. I don't think our views are different, just how express it.
On April 02 2009 01:09 w3jjjj wrote: Yes, there are plenty of good lurker builds for stronger macro and less map control. However, this thread is for the hydra/muta build, we know there are plenty of alternatives, but we will not focus our discussion on them.
It would be awesome if you could do a guide about one of those in the future
On April 02 2009 01:09 w3jjjj wrote: Yes, there are plenty of good lurker builds for stronger macro and less map control. However, this thread is for the hydra/muta build, we know there are plenty of alternatives, but we will not focus our discussion on them.
It would be awesome if you could do a guide about one of those in the future
just reread the guide after your april 7th revision, and i have to say, it's even more helpful now! thanks for the guide.
would it be safe to say that if my muta control is not very good, that i should start off practicing 3hat muta builds until i'm comfortable with it before using a build like this?
On April 08 2009 14:09 skronch wrote: would it be safe to say that if my muta control is not very good, that i should start off practicing 3hat muta builds until i'm comfortable with it before using a build like this?
The only muta micro you need is to snipe templars, which isn't very hard in the open. You don't need to bother with cannons with your mutas so the micro isn't that demanding. The emphasis of this build is on Mass hydra, you need mostly good macro and 2a3a4a5a (I keep my mutas on 1). The only muta micro needed is to try not to run mutas into archons when you are sniping, and also keep the mutas moving when you snipe, so you can run away from storms without slowing down, that's pretty much it.
i really like this kind of 3->5 hatch tech switching strats, but i really dont know what to do on older maps with hard 3rd(gas) to keep. Anything but this kind of techs seem to fail, except 2 hatch muta, and 4 hatch hydra break which really are hit or miss tactics
I read ur 5 hatch hydra strategy and have practiced using it alot. one problem i noticed when i play against good players is that i am unable to control my mutas well enough to kill all the templars (although toss these days get goons out much faster). after getting rolled and rolled over game after game, i was not sure if i did the build correctly (probably my mechanics were not good enough). recently, i devised a variation to the 5 hatch hydra. the BO goes something like this.
*I prefer overpool because it forces the toss to get a few cannons but 12 hatch is fine* overpool 11 hatch 4 lings 15 hatch (expo or at nat) 14 gas drone till 18 (ovie at 17) lair with first 100 gas speed 2nd gas when lair finishes 4th hatch just b4 35 food make until there are 8-10 lings den when spire is 50% 5th hatch 4 scourges lurker upgrade then the hydra ups
basically this build is intended to to directly into lurker/hydra/ling so that the zerg can get more control of the map. since the toss will not get obs out as fast, the temps must storm the lurkers and not the hydras. when the lurkers are stormed, surround with hydra/ling to kill off the toss. Theoritically, this build is more versatile because of the earlier lurker upgrades, thus switching from lurker/hydra to hydra/ling to muta hydra very easy, and it also allows a faster hive tech for the defilers/ultras.
Obviously im a noob so idk if this works well in the higher ranks, say c to c+. but i have been using this build for a few days and have had way more success with this build than the 5 hatch hydra/scourge build. any feedback is appreciated. thx
On April 10 2009 10:39 Lightswarm wrote: I read ur 5 hatch hydra strategy and have practiced using it alot. one problem i noticed when i play against good players is that i am unable to control my mutas well enough to kill all the templars (although toss these days get goons out much faster). after getting rolled and rolled over game after game, i was not sure if i did the build correctly (probably my mechanics were not good enough). recently, i devised a variation to the 5 hatch hydra. the BO goes something like this.
*I prefer overpool because it forces the toss to get a few cannons but 12 hatch is fine* overpool 11 hatch 4 lings 15 hatch (expo or at nat) 14 gas drone till 18 (ovie at 17) lair with first 100 gas speed 2nd gas when lair finishes 4th hatch just b4 35 food make until there are 8-10 lings den when spire is 50% 5th hatch 4 scourges lurker upgrade then the hydra ups
basically this build is intended to to directly into lurker/hydra/ling so that the zerg can get more control of the map. since the toss will not get obs out as fast, the temps must storm the lurkers and not the hydras. when the lurkers are stormed, surround with hydra/ling to kill off the toss. Theoritically, this build is more versatile because of the earlier lurker upgrades, thus switching from lurker/hydra to hydra/ling to muta hydra very easy, and it also allows a faster hive tech for the defilers/ultras.
Obviously im a noob so idk if this works well in the higher ranks, say c to c+. but i have been using this build for a few days and have had way more success with this build than the 5 hatch hydra/scourge build. any feedback is appreciated. thx
That was generally the build that zergs used for the year before 5 hatch hydra became popular (at least in the proscene; I think the foreign scene was consumed by the 4 hatch +1 carapace build at the time). There was never really a standardized build order for it because how quickly you need lurker tech is dependent completely on what the P does. And usually if you do this you just stick with lurkling and get carapace/melee dual up after the lurks are out rather than hydra speed or range followed by hive when both ups are about half done, but it can really be played any way. At the moment it seems to be considered a weaker build but it still works fine, especially on maps without a 3rd easy gas because generally with this build you can place your 4th or hatch hatch safely at a 4th base, and even if you don't its fine as lurkling can survive on 2 gas until hive is done.
What is the point/advantage of getting 3 hatch spire first for this build? The only advantages i see is dealing with sairs using scourge and threatening the toss with a muta build, however a good toss can tell if ur saving larvae or not for it.
The way I've been playing hydra-->muta is getting first 100gas on attack upgrade, then next 100gas on lair, and get the den hydra upgrades according to the timing of your hydras, and get spire according to the timing of your mutas. It'll get me lair quick enough to have OL speed when i need it, and it'll give me mutas when i need it, and my upgrades will be stronger in midgame.
On April 13 2009 03:28 FortuneSyn wrote: Thanks for your effort on this guide.
What is the point/advantage of getting 3 hatch spire first for this build? The only advantages i see is dealing with sairs using scourge and threatening the toss with a muta build, however a good toss can tell if ur saving larvae or not for it.
The way I've been playing hydra-->muta is getting first 100gas on attack upgrade, then next 100gas on lair, and get the den hydra upgrades according to the timing of your hydras, and get spire according to the timing of your mutas. It'll get me lair quick enough to have OL speed when i need it, and it'll give me mutas when i need it, and my upgrades will be stronger in midgame.
It takes 28 drones on minerals and 6 on gas to pump 5 hatch hydra. The build order is designed to get this drone saturation in the fastest way possible, and matching the saturation with the completion of 5 hatcheries. Getting the fast spire to deal with the corsairs is critical as it spares you from making earlier hydras, therefore u can make more drones and get to you saturation point faster, which eventually translates into more hydras faster.
Furthermore, the spire timing is aimed to control the corsair count. Vs a P who stops after 1 scouting sair that may not seem much, but vs a mass corsair build you can delay the P from doing any damage before his corsair number builds up, and that is another critical window for you to get more drones and infrastructures to reach a different drone saturation point. A delayed spire would give P free reign in this window, and you will once again be forced to make early hydras to defend, and that makes your drones late and you cannot fully pump hydras for much longer.
On April 13 2009 03:28 FortuneSyn wrote: Thanks for your effort on this guide.
What is the point/advantage of getting 3 hatch spire first for this build? The only advantages i see is dealing with sairs using scourge and threatening the toss with a muta build, however a good toss can tell if ur saving larvae or not for it.
The way I've been playing hydra-->muta is getting first 100gas on attack upgrade, then next 100gas on lair, and get the den hydra upgrades according to the timing of your hydras, and get spire according to the timing of your mutas. It'll get me lair quick enough to have OL speed when i need it, and it'll give me mutas when i need it, and my upgrades will be stronger in midgame.
The advantage of this build is that it removes all the threats the P can pose against your very early when he FE`s. The lingspeed gives you total safety from any zeal harass since you can start making lings once you see him move out from his base, and they will finish in time as his zeals arrive at your base. This totally neglects any zeal harass and if he chose to move out to towards you he will only end up losing his lots since its easy to surround and kill them with speed, hence a lot of Ps don`t send out their lots at all and that leaves you to mass even more drones faster. Also you deny any scouting once speed finishes + you always have the option of doing a mass ling break if you see a hole in his defense, and the P have to take in to account the fact that you CAN make a lingbreak even if you don`t in most cases making him focus more on not having holes in his early defenses.
As for the spire, like with the speedling you effectively shuts down any harass of your overlords for a long time (until he gets like 6 sairs if he keeps on massing them, and then you will have lots of hydras anyway) + it gives you instant scouting of what the P is doing and lets you adjust accordingly (for example if you see him going sair\reaver you can make a few more drones than usual and starting burrow), and the more subtle fact that once again you gives the P the threat of mutas.
In general this build is just a highly versatile and well thought out build that aims to bring you into the midgame in most cases with a strong economy with good drone saturation, 5hatches and with several tech choices available for you. However the real strength of this build is that it can adapt to anything so well, unlike say a 3hatch muta build you can easily change this build as you go along to make it suit any given situation. Say you see his skipping stargate, you can easily forgo placing down more hatches and instead put down a second gas and turn into a mutabuild, or say hes going for a quick mass lot strat you could also changed it up and get the lurker upgrade asap to stop it easily. Its simply works well vs anything the P do nowadays, and while its not very strong vs any builds, its not weak vs anything either and aims to bring you into the midgame without any disadvantages.
I tried to look for a good answer, but how does this do vs the +1 speedzeal rush? I assume you need more than your standard 12 speedlings + a sunken vs ~10-11 zealots, so do you need to make extra sunkens then? How many? If you build your 3rd, 4th, or 5th hatchery at your 3rd then don't you need sunkens there as well? Since you build your spire first then wait for it to finish before starting your hydra den what do you have to protect you until you have 1-4 hotkeys of hydras + lings? Maybe I'm missing something key here, but doesn't the +1 speedzealot rush come before your econ effectively kicks in?
On March 10 2009 13:48 systranerror wrote: When you spot the forge spinning early and it's obviously a speedlot rush that will move out ~7:00 or so, is the best thing to do:
-get second gas right after spire is put down, drone up more till halfway done with spire, save for mutas
-delay placement of fourth and fifth hatchery until after mutas are out
-make mutas and lings to defend the push, then counter
Also say you successfully snipe most of the high templar and there is no third base going up, is it best to just set up a contain while macroing or should you go for a break into the natural?
Forge spinning early does not always mean a no stargate speedlot rush. There is a strange and not so common mass corsair/+1 speedlot timing attack build that works great against muta openinngs. Best signs to judge P builds is based on gateway timing, after core finish if you see 2 gates going down quickly when you expect the stargate, that hints speedlot rush regardless of whether forge is spinning, hell he might have just forgot, but you never want to be caught off guard by a speedlot attack right when you start hydras.
If indeed you confirm a no stargate speedlot build with fast templar archive, then yes get gas sooner, make your 4th hatch and go mutas earlier, make extra sunkens with the money you normally have for the 5th hatch. Lings aren't great vs +1 speedlots, but if you think your sunkens might not hold, make lings will aid your defense.
On your second question, if you have complete map control, see if you can pick off templars at his nat, your hydra blob can walk through anything without storm threats. If his templars are protected by cannons, I wouldn't force it. Losing mutas is the same as losing map control cuz you can no longer control his templar count.
But how drastically does that change your plan for the rest of the game(up until ~110 supply when you take your 4th)? If you make muta's earlier does that mean you make them before hydras instead then? By the time those mutas come out his attack will already be over right? Assuming you survived you just go do regular stacked muta harass until you mass hydras? Does this change the timing of your 4th at all?
On April 15 2009 11:46 Cloud wrote: This isnt meant to be used against +1 speedzeals. If hes not making any corsairs, the spire is useless if you dont open mutas.
So either skip the spire for the time being or open mutas.
If you scout it how do you change your regular plan? Do you not lay down a 4th and 5th hatchery right away? Do you still aim for hydras in the end?
On April 15 2009 11:43 Grobyc wrote: I tried to look for a good answer, but how does this do vs the +1 speedzeal rush? I assume you need more than your standard 12 speedlings + a sunken vs ~10-11 zealots, so do you need to make extra sunkens then? How many? If you build your 3rd, 4th, or 5th hatchery at your 3rd then don't you need sunkens there as well? Since you build your spire first then wait for it to finish before starting your hydra den what do you have to protect you until you have 1-4 hotkeys of hydras + lings? Maybe I'm missing something key here, but doesn't the +1 speedzealot rush come before your econ effectively kicks in?
On March 10 2009 13:48 systranerror wrote: When you spot the forge spinning early and it's obviously a speedlot rush that will move out ~7:00 or so, is the best thing to do:
-get second gas right after spire is put down, drone up more till halfway done with spire, save for mutas
-delay placement of fourth and fifth hatchery until after mutas are out
-make mutas and lings to defend the push, then counter
Also say you successfully snipe most of the high templar and there is no third base going up, is it best to just set up a contain while macroing or should you go for a break into the natural?
Forge spinning early does not always mean a no stargate speedlot rush. There is a strange and not so common mass corsair/+1 speedlot timing attack build that works great against muta openinngs. Best signs to judge P builds is based on gateway timing, after core finish if you see 2 gates going down quickly when you expect the stargate, that hints speedlot rush regardless of whether forge is spinning, hell he might have just forgot, but you never want to be caught off guard by a speedlot attack right when you start hydras.
If indeed you confirm a no stargate speedlot build with fast templar archive, then yes get gas sooner, make your 4th hatch and go mutas earlier, make extra sunkens with the money you normally have for the 5th hatch. Lings aren't great vs +1 speedlots, but if you think your sunkens might not hold, make lings will aid your defense.
On your second question, if you have complete map control, see if you can pick off templars at his nat, your hydra blob can walk through anything without storm threats. If his templars are protected by cannons, I wouldn't force it. Losing mutas is the same as losing map control cuz you can no longer control his templar count.
But how drastically does that change your plan for the rest of the game(up until ~110 supply when you take your 4th)? If you make muta's earlier does that mean you make them before hydras instead then? By the time those mutas come out his attack will already be over right? Assuming you survived you just go do regular stacked muta harass until you mass hydras? Does this change the timing of your 4th at all?
If no stargate you will go mutas first, 4 hatch is typical, even 3 hatch is fine if P is doing a particularly strong version of the +1 attack. The build branches off so early it is obviously no longer the 5 hatch hydra build, so non of the stuff in this guide would even apply in that situation.
But anyway, if you did 4 hatch muta to counter no stargate, you can either follow up with mass hydra and play a muta/hydra in the reverse order as it is in this guide, or you can tech straight to lurkers and hive and turtle on 4 base. Both are playable styles, but the turtle style requires that your third base be at another nat so u can get free 4th.
On April 15 2009 11:46 Cloud wrote: This isnt meant to be used against +1 speedzeals. If hes not making any corsairs, the spire is useless if you dont open mutas.
So either skip the spire for the time being or open mutas.
If you scout it how do you change your regular plan? Do you not lay down a 4th and 5th hatchery right away? Do you still aim for hydras in the end?
His cytadel (or stargate) should start before your spire does. So there is no real plan as of now, you can get a second gas right after you scout it, get spire, delay your 4th a bit and go muta, instead of the 5th hatchery you will make sunkens. Or instead of a spire get 4th hatch and then den for 4 hatch hydra with a couple sunkens.
Or you can scout his forge spinning sooner than that and get a den for 3 hatch lurker, then make 2 hatcheries, get 2nd gas, evolution chamber and ovie speed. Or for a more passive zerg delay those 2 hatcheries, take your 2nd gas asap and evolution chamber for carapace to start right after lurker aspect.
Revision made, added 2 reps vs computer as bo demos, also added more sub sections under hydra play. The wording is pretty bad so I'll rephrase a lot of things tomorrow, too tired now.
On April 16 2009 17:02 w3jjjj wrote: Revision made, added 2 reps vs computer as bo demos, also added more sub sections under hydra play. The wording is pretty bad so I'll rephrase a lot of things tomorrow, too tired now.
On April 16 2009 17:02 w3jjjj wrote: Revision made, added 2 reps vs computer as bo demos, also added more sub sections under hydra play. The wording is pretty bad so I'll rephrase a lot of things tomorrow, too tired now.
The replays mess up for me on 1.16.1, do I need to watch them with a different version?
On April 16 2009 17:02 w3jjjj wrote: Revision made, added 2 reps vs computer as bo demos, also added more sub sections under hydra play. The wording is pretty bad so I'll rephrase a lot of things tomorrow, too tired now.
The replays mess up for me on 1.16.1, do I need to watch them with a different version?
The ones vs computer were played like 2 days ago, 1.16.1 should be fine, the game vs cruzado may have been an earlier version but it is very recent
On April 16 2009 17:02 w3jjjj wrote: Revision made, added 2 reps vs computer as bo demos, also added more sub sections under hydra play. The wording is pretty bad so I'll rephrase a lot of things tomorrow, too tired now.
The replays mess up for me on 1.16.1, do I need to watch them with a different version?
The ones vs computer were played like 2 days ago, 1.16.1 should be fine, the game vs cruzado may have been an earlier version but it is very recent
They only mess up when you watch them in multiplayer. They work if you watch them in single player, probably because they were recorded in singleplayer.
i dont know if this has been asked but if you follow the build up to the making hydras part is skipping out on mutalisks(for the time being) and instead transitioning into heavy drop play viable with this opening?
On April 18 2009 00:54 arb wrote: i dont know if this has been asked but if you follow the build up to the making hydras part is skipping out on mutalisks(for the time being) and instead transitioning into heavy drop play viable with this opening?
Yes, if you want to do that I would forget about mutas and just make lurkers instead, better for drops.
On April 19 2009 01:12 Zerg_Sasuke wrote: This game vs Cruzado ... would u win if he didnt destroy his eco with making 3 canons early + drawing probes out ?
Who knows, it would have been a more even game. Since ZvP is not my best match up, and P is ranked higher, i would say he had better chances in general.
Hi, I have a question: How can I scout his build, if the protoss builds a goon right after his core to kill my scouting ovi in his main ? Then I can't see if he is adding gateways / building sairs until I have my pair of scourge (assuming he hides his tech from my ovi). The problem is that a +1 zeal push could easily catch me off guard...And I won't have the gas for muta, cuz I'm adding the 2nd gas so late (around spire finish).. Could I assume something by his 2nd gas timing ? I know if he upgrades +1 fairly early, there is a strong possibility he might go +1speedzeal push, but it's no garantuee either..
On April 19 2009 23:06 geenobu wrote: Hi, I have a question: How can I scout his build, if the protoss builds a goon right after his core to kill my scouting ovi in his main ? Then I can't see if he is adding gateways / building sairs until I have my pair of scourge (assuming he hides his tech from my ovi). The problem is that a +1 zeal push could easily catch me off guard...And I won't have the gas for muta, cuz I'm adding the 2nd gas so late (around spire finish).. Could I assume something by his 2nd gas timing ? I know if he upgrades +1 fairly early, there is a strong possibility he might go +1speedzeal push, but it's no garantuee either..
I try to scout with my lings. Just run them near the forge and maby take 1 or 2 cannon hits. If it is spinning you can do w\e u do to counter
The question is if I should assume that he's +1speedzeal pushing, when the +1 is early. For example in the game vs cruzado, he is upgrading +1 with his first gas...Let's say the p was hiding a pylon from the overlord and he would've built the stargate there...If now a goon comes and chases my ovi away/kills it, I don't know what he's doing basically. Should I suicide another ovi in order to see the earlier gates or sth ?
On April 19 2009 23:21 geenobu wrote: The question is if I should assume that he's +1speedzeal pushing, when the +1 is early. For example in the game vs cruzado, he is upgrading +1 with his first gas...Let's say the p was hiding a pylon from the overlord and he would've built the stargate there...If now a goon comes and chases my ovi away/kills it, I don't know what he's doing basically. Should I suicide another ovi in order to see the earlier gates or sth ?
His stargate or citidel will start as soon as his core is done so start sending your OL out of his base as soon as his core finishes (if he built his core at his nat and you don't see it then it should finish maybe 5-10 seconds before your lair so go by that timing). Once your OL is out of their base most P's will just cancel it the goon so you can send it back in around the time your spire is halfway done to see his tech. If at this point you see 3 gates then even if you only have like 400 gas just put down your second gas, get like 5 mutas, and just focus your defense more on sunkens and lings. If he builds the goon anyways and just has it waiting at the side of his main thats kind of wierd but you can still usually suicide the OL unless its waiting at the exact spot you planned to send it in. In that case just wait for your spire to finish and do the above low-gas muta thing. If his sair hasn't reached your base by the time your spire is done then he didn't go stargate.
Also, if he hides a pylon and puts a stargate there then that means he is not going to commit to corsairs. If he does do this then every corsair past the second will be in high danger of just getting picked off by scourge as soon as it finishes. P build their stargate at their nexus because they need cannons there to defend vs mutas and so it doubles as defense against scourge and mutas for when their sairs pop. So if they are hiding their stargate like that you are free to go mutas anyways because you aren't in danger of having to play against a corsair heavy build. He might put it at his nat but if you don't have a very good diea of what he is doing just throw 2-3 speedlings into his nat. If he has a robo bay there then he is obviously going sair reaver. If he didn't put his tech at his main he prolly put the stargate or the citidel here so you can find that too. And you can also look at his second gas timing but you should always do that with the overlord near his nat. Either way mutas are fine vs anything other than like heavy sair+fast archon builds so if you can't find a stargate near either his main or nat you should be fine. The next hardest strat against it would be the 2 archon 4 gate push thing but I'm pretty sure that doesn't get +1 as early as a speedlot rush.
I know this has been discussed a litle beforfe, but I have not found a good answer to it.
What to do on maps without a gas on the 3 base? For exampel, on Medusa, Blue or Andromeda(not familliar with Andro). You expand to you min-only and then you dont get that fast 3 gas. I have solved this problem with expanding to one of the single gas expansions on Medusa. But lets say I expand to my min-only base. Then I wont have enough gas to make mutas. So what should I do then. How can I deal with his army before my lurker uppgrade is finnished?
Or if he makes a lot of corsairs and ground army. I have not encounterd this almost at all, but then the mutas would be owned. Should I still get them and just micro better, or since he makes so many sairs he wont have enough templars to deal with my hydras?
On April 25 2009 07:33 Neivler wrote: I know this has been discussed a litle beforfe, but I have not found a good answer to it.
What to do on maps without a gas on the 3 base? For exampel, on Medusa, Blue or Andromeda(not familliar with Andro). You expand to you min-only and then you dont get that fast 3 gas. I have solved this problem with expanding to one of the single gas expansions on Medusa. But lets say I expand to my min-only base. Then I wont have enough gas to make mutas. So what should I do then. How can I deal with his army before my lurker uppgrade is finnished?
While this is a flexible build, it is not the ultimate counter to everything. Maps with 3 easy gas favor this build, while maps with 2 gas favor other builds. You can still play the same style, but it will be more difficult. With 2 gas you will have more minerals which should be used to expand faster to gas expos. The real problem is that without early 3rd gas, it takes longer to finish making mutas, so it takes longer before you can resume hydra production, which weakens your army. On the other hand, the extra minerals can very well go to drones and hatcheries, which gives you a better economy. So perhaps you can play a more defensive style, and since most P on medusa go for a fast third expo, you can probably get away with less hydras early on. Play to your advantage, if you have more gas use gas, more minerals then try to use the minerals.
Or if he makes a lot of corsairs and ground army. I have not encounterd this almost at all, but then the mutas would be owned. Should I still get them and just micro better, or since he makes so many sairs he wont have enough templars to deal with my hydras?
It clearly states in the guide that this build is not intended to face mass corsair builds, so this question is really not applicable. You can get air armor +1 if you see mass corsairs, that will help your scourge and keep your ovies safer. A mid game muta switch is possible if you scourged enough corsairs or if you finished +1 air carapace and you are confident with muta/scourge. But the transition will come much later than in the hydra/muta build, which defeats the timing purpose of the build. The late muta transition should be considered another strategy, not a variation of this build.
3 bases with 2 gas is very fine, as the P need gas aswell. You don't really need ur 3rd gas anyway to make mass mutas in 1 time as you can skip hydras for glings unless he does +1 atk upg which you should better be careful. Remember, scouting is the key. And zerg have a LOT of way to scout. It's really hard for P to hide something and if he does so he's taking a lot of risks. When your 3rd base doesn't have gas then you can put another hatch in another base as the mineral will go up really fast.
Edit : And even if you need gas you can always make ur 2nd gas is little sooner. Seriously it's not a big deal
On April 26 2009 09:09 arkaros wrote: Really gr8 for a noob like me. Tho the replays doesn't work i get "Can not load senario" error does that mean that i need to get the map or someting?
You just need to rename the replay to something shorter
Did you read the entire thread ? :p If not, watch the replays against cpu on single player, the one with cruzado work both in single player and multi i think. You will have to rename the rep to make it shorter. If it still doesn't work you may need re download the rep.
When I'm doing this build, sometimes when I see the toss adding a lot more gateways earlier and gearing for a +1 speedlot push, I start the second gas at the same time as the spire and make mutas first. I've actually lost games where I did this, stopped his +1 push, stopped him mining really long, killed the templar archives, etc. etc., then transitioned so poorly into a ground army from there that I didn't win.
If you go muta first and switch to hydras later, what is the key to making it smooth? I'm thinking that it's probably really critical to not make too many lings or sunkens after your spire is planted; but to power as many drones as possible until the spire is half done.
Should I only make a fourth hatch instead of a fourth and a fifth when I go muta first? When should I put down the den and switch to hydras? I know a lot of this depends largely on how much damage the mutas do, but just assume they keep the toss from doing any real damage with his +1 and force him to defend a good deal/slow down his economy.
On April 26 2009 10:31 systranerror wrote: When I'm doing this build, sometimes when I see the toss adding a lot more gateways earlier and gearing for a +1 speedlot push, I start the second gas at the same time as the spire and make mutas first. I've actually lost games where I did this, stopped his +1 push, stopped him mining really long, killed the templar archives, etc. etc., then transitioned so poorly into a ground army from there that I didn't win.
If you go muta first and switch to hydras later, what is the key to making it smooth? I'm thinking that it's probably really critical to not make too many lings or sunkens after your spire is planted; but to power as many drones as possible until the spire is half done.
Should I only make a fourth hatch instead of a fourth and a fifth when I go muta first? When should I put down the den and switch to hydras? I know a lot of this depends largely on how much damage the mutas do, but just assume they keep the toss from doing any real damage with his +1 and force him to defend a good deal/slow down his economy.
Well hold of the attack, and then add drones and make up to 5 hatches. Then start the hydra production, and play simmilar to what you normaly would do. Just make sure you have enough drones(38?). Also I have heard about ppl that go 3 hat spire and then go up to 7 hatches and then start hydra production
Thanks for this guide! I recently started playing again after a "small" 3 year break(I was C- P on WGT before I quit). Anyways, I came back and played my first 1v1 on B.Net and I was beyond horrible. I stopped playing for about a week and did nothing but study/research modern SC. While Protoss have always been my "best", I've always liked the play style of Zerg more, but I never really took the time to learn. Well I asked myself, "This is the perfect time to relearn SC with the race I actually enjoy playing".
With this informative guide, TL forums, Chill/Ahzz FPVODs,and Day[9]'s podcasts, I went 11-4 on my first 3 days on Iccup. 3 losses were absolutely my fault due to poor scoutin(Not defending my expos while not denying P their 3rd). Also, my APM has jumped significantly due to much better mechanics.
Lately on Iccup, ZvP, I've had several D+ C- Toss players skip Stargate/Sairs all together and push out with a faster + 1 Zeal rush. Should I skip the Spire all together and get a quicker den? If so, around what supply should I get the Den/Evo and Nat gas?
On May 10 2009 01:12 Myst- wrote: I have a question.
Lately on Iccup, ZvP, I've had several D+ C- Toss players skip Stargate/Sairs all together and push out with a faster + 1 Zeal rush. Should I skip the Spire all together and get a quicker den? If so, around what supply should I get the Den/Evo and Nat gas?
Thanks!
If the toss skips the stargate the sky is yours to control...
Indeed, if you see this and feel insecure just add 1-2 extra sunks per expansion and you should be able to hold off with lings and drones, move your mutas to his main/exp and keep sniping templars, if he stays, just keep pumping hydras off of 5 hatch, and run him over. A toss army with no storm is a dead toss army vs mass hydra.
On May 10 2009 01:50 Zerg_Sasuke wrote: If ya want to become really good vs P .. is this the best build to play in ZvP ????
I think its the easiest build at the D+/C-/C levels . You just need to practise muta micro and your marco in general . I normally add my fourth hat when my lair is going up so i can transition faster between hidras and mutas . Also scouting is very important so that you won't get caught off guard against some desperate DT , speed zeal or Zeal/Archon rush . If you want to get a better understanding of the build watch some of JulyZerg games on Neo Harmony vs JangBi or Tempest if you are gonna open with mutas first . The point of oppening mutas and scourge first is just to keep the protoss busy and do as much harras as possible while you are macroing from all 5 hat hidras and then just run the protoss over , also keeping the mutas alive is very important . Its always better to build a few scourge and hidras first to keep the pesky corsairs down and to confuse the protoss with what you are doing .
It doesn't work well on all maps thought some maps favour mass lurker / ling then mass hidras .
On May 13 2009 17:10 Lq_ fAn wrote: so when to get 4th base?
What w3jjj mentioned in his guide is the timing right after mutas come out, you should get a fourth. I'm not an expert at the build, still working out the kinks and trying to familiarize myself to it. But from what I've tried, I think this timing depends on a few things.
When you stopped pumping drones. If you stopped at around 42 supply with 12 lings and 4 scourges, ie, 34 drones exactly for 5 hatch hydra production, you won't really have the resources for a 4th hatch until you can sneak some drones in at a later time. If you went above that, say 45 supply or maybe a little higher if you somehow gain a small advantage in the early game, you can have the resources to build that 4th before or around when you morph your mutas. On certain maps, I think it would even be good to make an expo at an out of the way place that you can sack if necessary and you can trade for positioning for that expo.
How your battles go, if you crush protoss's first zeal archon push with your +1 hydras, I don't see anything wrong with pumping out a round of drones and getting your fourth before getting mutas. You don't necessarily need to replenish your hydra count to full seeing as the toss will need about two rounds of production at least off of 5 gates to get out a few temps and get zeal count up again before pushing out. You should try to stop a third expo if possible though.
If you made hydras at 42 supply, you had to keep replenishing your hydras, and you don't have good map control, it's slightly tougher and the build doesn't give you much room for that 4th. You'll have to try to stall toss's third while waiting for lurker tech. Once lurker tech's out and you've got a few morphing, that's a good time to pump out drones and think about expanding. Depending on the state of the Toss's economy, double expand to catch up might be a good idea in certain cases.
So in conclusion, it really depends on the game and your control of the map. Take my advice with a grain of salt, since I'm not nearly at the same level as the other posters here, and the opponents I play are not either.
sorry I meant when to take 4th gas. yea at 56-60 suply make gas and 5 drones 1 for gas 3 to gather gas and one to expo , as example was destiantion where you can take safe min only below your 3rd base
On Longinus, where you take your min only with your 3rd hatch, should be using this build? You need to take your 4th base with your 4th/5th hatch to get enough gas and that seems like it would stretch you out too much.
First... great guide; )) I got just a few questions.... After a long practise, i feel very confident with this build order... until it comes to the battle;D
Is your advice to play very aggressiv when your mutas pop out? Often i try to attack right away when mutas are there... but it doesnt really work because Ps army is placed very well..(most of the time; ) ) Should i wait until he moved out to pick his HTs?
Another question is, how do u micro your Mutas? Stacked with ovi/larva? Because it seems to be very difficult to snipe HTs with unstacked mutas; ) But ... ovispeed is already done and u will also need every single larva;p
The last question is very specific... To improve faster, i play only on tau cross. But every time I'm not sure if I should take the minonly or the spawnposi(gas). (spawn seems very hard to defend)
You can try to group your mutas with a trapped zergling, usually takes only 2 lings to get one trapped in mineral patches. Group with speed ovie is fine, if it is far away it still takes a while for the ovie to get close, should be enough time to micro, if it gets close change another ovie. Group with a larva is also good for like 20 seconds, just remember not to make units from that larva, I like to use my last hatch when I group with larva, so its easier to remember not to make units with hotkeys.
Yes, take the min only on tau cross. You are playing a unit heavy build and fighting in the middle, so you should try not to let him attack your base at all. If P gains map control and he attacks the min only with too big of an army, you can always try to counter.
Should i try to prevent Ps 2nd exe "to any price", or do you prefer to take your 3th and wait until he tries to attack (and it becomes much easier to snipe HTs)? Especially on tau cross, the 3th expansion is very easy to defend.....
I've attempted to move the ideas of this guide to Liquipedia here. I think it is better and more specific than was was originally on the page. Please help out if you notice something. What I did isn't perfect I'm sure. As of posting, it's the "draft" page.
can someone do a sort of list of the actual BO no explaining is really needed im trying to edit liquipedia somthing like
12hatch 11Pool 13hatch(to new expo) 12gas 12make zerlings fo early zlots etc etc plz =) i would do it but im really unfamiliar with the 5hatch actual BO
On June 20 2009 05:53 Heaven_n wrote: can someone do a sort of list of the actual BO no explaining is really needed im trying to edit liquipedia somthing like
12hatch 11Pool 13hatch(to new expo) 12gas 12make zerlings fo early zlots etc etc plz =) i would do it but im really unfamiliar with the 5hatch actual BO
There is no set build order. It can be executed from 12hatch or overpool or 9pool. It's rather open to interpretation besides the basis of 3hatch lair, spire, and five hatcheries.
There's no reason why you can't build 2 more hatcheries if you find yourself in a position where they will be useful, but it's going to be difficult to fully saturate all 3 bases unless you are were completely unharrased. Yes, if you delay the point where you actually start massing hydras it will be possible to fully saturate all your bases but I find that the window of opportunity where only mass hydras is useful is not that long.
Nice additions I especially find the recomendation on what to do if the protoss goes "true bisu style" helpful as that a problem I wasn't really aware of.
I read the guide, but i don't remember seeing any discussion/mention about why you would get spire first instead of getting a den when lair is 50%, and then placing spire as soon as lair is finished.
My reasoning and logic for den first is that you could potentially get faster hydras and attack earlier because of the earlier upgrades of speed and range to hydras, as well as a chance to end the game even before you needed mutas. But... I am not sure because i don't know if there would be enough gas to support the earlier den and upgrades. IDK why but i can't seem to figure out the reason behind spire first.
On July 16 2009 15:27 ph7 wrote: I read the guide, but i don't remember seeing any discussion/mention about why you would get spire first instead of getting a den when lair is 50%, and then placing spire as soon as lair is finished.
My reasoning and logic for den first is that you could potentially get faster hydras and attack earlier because of the earlier upgrades of speed and range to hydras, as well as a chance to end the game even before you needed mutas. But... I am not sure because i don't know if there would be enough gas to support the earlier den and upgrades. IDK why but i can't seem to figure out the reason behind spire first.
Every build order is designed to carry out its underlying strategy. The 5 hatch hydra build isn't designed for early aggression, it is a flexible build capable of adapting to any P strategies after FE. The 5 hatch hydra seeks to gain a decent amount of everything: safety, econ, tech, upgrades, etc...what you get is a smooth transition into the mid game, where you can comfortably pump hydras off of 5 hatch.
The build order itself is designed to reach this 5 hatch production speed. To support this production speed, you need enough drones and 5 hatcheries. The faster you accumulate these drones and hatcheries, the faster you can go into full hydra production, and the more hydras you can produce. In fantasy land, where there are no enemies, the fastest way to accumulate drones and hatcheries is just making pure drones and hatcheries... But with your enemy on the map, you must spend resources to defend against various threats. The more resources you spend on defense, the less resources you will have for drones and hatcheries. Using ling/scourge for early defense is the backbone of today's ZvP theory, for it is the most cost effective combo to defend against zealots and corsairs. This allows you to spend more resources on drones and hatcheries early on, which helps you to achieve your 5 hatch production speed faster, which translates to more hydras...
For defensive purposes, there is no need to make earlier den/hydra/upgrades, because ling/scourge is cheaper and more effective. Making earlier den/hydra/upgrades takes more resources away from your drones and hatcheries, which slows you down from reaching the 5 hatch production speed. In short, making faster den/hydra/upgrades in this build is actually counter productive, as it goes against your strategic goal.
If you want earlier hydras for offensive purposes, you can try more aggressive builds like 2 hatch hydra, 3 hatch hydra, 4 hatch hydra, or 5 hatch (before gas) hydra builds.
Theres been a slight modifciation to this, Where they pop mutas before and then op for a mass hydra army. Does anyone have the BO for this? I cant seem to get the hang of it whenever i try doing so.
On May 16 2011 03:17 ICanFlyLow wrote: Theres been a slight modifciation to this, Where they pop mutas before and then op for a mass hydra army. Does anyone have the BO for this? I cant seem to get the hang of it whenever i try doing so.
Its actually not a slight modification at all, and I've written a post about this awhile ago, Harem promised to help out with more details of the build, but he hasn't responded yet. I'd imagine he is the most knowledgeable person about this currently.
In general though, this build is centered around getting a quick 4th while contesting the protoss for air superiority. A really tough build to pull off correctly and you can lose to a lot of stupid things. Its not like 3 hat spire to 5 hat hydra where you use mass amounts of hydra to control the map and mutas to snipe. Its more like mass muta scourge taking control of the air trying to delay the toss third for as long as possible while getting your fourth up. Then transition into hydra/ turtle with lurkers until hive tech, then ulta ling defiler ftw. This, at least, is as much as i know about htis build and it would be great if someone could make a detailed fpvod of some sort.
The most odd thing to me is the lack of a second gas even after spire is done. It seems as if the army composition consists mostly of lings at the start to handle zealot movement and to defend zealot attacks with sunkens and lings.
It appears that hydra den and evo chamber is delayed very significantly. My guess is that there is no rush in obtaining a mass number of mutas since it is expected that at that point in time, corsair would already be near critical mass and building up drone count and defence would be much better in the long run.
I do compare the mechanical demands of this build to be slightly higher than corsair-reaver because of the kind of control you will need. Since your muta scourge will be the only form of anti-air at that point, losing an air battle will be as good as a loss since he will now have free reign to kill off your overlords, which are without speed.
On further analysis, I think that the mutas come in after you plant down your 4th base hatch. Which is why I think balancing the larvae between drones and other stuff is quite important. The main aim will be to get lurkers asap, as it will help defence a whole lot more.
imo muta build vs toss are very bad, since all toss tend to go mass sair, mutas are good to harrass, but no good fighting unit. so better get earlier lurkers and go up for lair tech and try to break him with cracklings and ultras/defilers. mutas dont come really suprising for any d+ toss and higher, since u just need to see the second gas timing, u will know mutas are coming and if the toss knows this, he ill have 2 canons in the main an archon and at least like 4 sairs already, mutas wont do any dmg and the game is pretty much over.
On May 17 2011 05:45 WeRRa wrote: imo muta build vs toss are very bad, since all toss tend to go mass sair, mutas are good to harrass, but no good fighting unit. so better get earlier lurkers and go up for lair tech and try to break him with cracklings and ultras/defilers. mutas dont come really suprising for any d+ toss and higher, since u just need to see the second gas timing, u will know mutas are coming and if the toss knows this, he ill have 2 canons in the main an archon and at least like 4 sairs already, mutas wont do any dmg and the game is pretty much over.
User was warned for this post
lol...big fail on so many levels please read the posts above more carefully, or watch the VOD at least before commenting
obviously if Jaedong is doing it nearly every game there is some merit to the build -.- derp
dont treat this as a universal bo, if the toss is opening two stargates or sair/reaver then getting mutas is a bad idea (though you should still get +1 carapace, and could still make mutas later in the game.) Also speedlot rushes attack before your mutas spawn, so you'll either need atleast 3 sunkens+lings in each nat, or get mutas right after spire if you see spinning forge and large gateway count (I'd recommend the latter). Also simcity is really important for the 6hatch bo.
On May 17 2011 10:18 Assault_1 wrote: dont treat this as a universal bo, if the toss is opening two stargates or sair/reaver then getting mutas is a bad idea (though you should still get +1 carapace, and could still make mutas later in the game.) Also speedlot rushes attack before your mutas spawn, so you'll either need atleast 3 sunkens+lings in each nat, or get mutas right after spire if you see spinning forge and large gateway count (I'd recommend the latter). Also simcity is really important for the 6hatch bo.
That's why it is critical in scouting the +1 attack. If your overlord in his base sees a stargate but no +1, then a hydra den should be planted down immediately and you can take your 4th base faster or mass up hydras asap to attack him. But I don't think attacking is wise because it was delayed and you may not attack in time.
Actually, the mutas arrive before the attack. So there really is no need for 3 sunkens at this point. The main priority I see is balancing lings with drones to help in holding off the zealot attacks. Somehow, we haven't really got to see this build manifest fully yet so we only can speculate now. The most important thing would be to note the 3rd and 4th gas timing together with the lurker timing and what will the mutas be used for from mid-late once good corsair count is established and zerg probably has a whole bunch of lurkers hydras and lings.
This build seemed to fall out of fashion in pro BW, but I could never figure out why since I don't remember pro Protosses finding a good counter. Anyone know why?
On June 14 2013 14:49 blueblimp wrote: This build seemed to fall out of fashion in pro BW, but I could never figure out why since I don't remember pro Protosses finding a good counter. Anyone know why?
The Neo-Bisu build was doing okay against it for a while. But a good old hydra break is always good. Also the overuse of Fighting Spirit during the last few years with its easy 4 bases made this build a bit less relevant. But for example on map where it's harder to secure 4 bases like HBR, this remains a great build (although I believe drop play is probably the best strategy on HBR).
I think the ease with which protoss can take bases is more important in examining why this build isnt so popular anymore. This is an aggressive zerg build that aims to prevent or kill a 3rd base by protoss, which is harder on a map like FS where its easy to defend your 3rd and natural at the same time.
The build can still work well against 1+ corsair protoss, you just have to include 1+ air armor for your mutas so they can survive longer and kill more templars. However it is more of an all in now with toss assuming air control - before the mutas would allow for zerg to have the option of either ending the game quickly with templar snipes and hydra bust, or just harassing and switching to more economic play, but now that such harass is impossible their only purpose is to kill templars and then let you win with hydras.
Lately ive seen a lot more progamers adopt a strategy of air control first, then hydra switching, in order to make the protoss defensive with his corsairs instead of using them for harassment and having to invest more money into anti air (watch games on chain reaction, jaedong hoejja etc)
On June 14 2013 14:49 blueblimp wrote: This build seemed to fall out of fashion in pro BW, but I could never figure out why since I don't remember pro Protosses finding a good counter. Anyone know why?
The Neo-Bisu build was doing okay against it for a while. But a good old hydra break is always good. Also the overuse of Fighting Spirit during the last few years with its easy 4 bases made this build a bit less relevant. But for example on map where it's harder to secure 4 bases like HBR, this remains a great build (although I believe drop play is probably the best strategy on HBR).
So on FS it's best to turtle on 4 bases to hive? Then what? Defliers first?
On June 15 2013 08:59 FyRe_DragOn wrote: Lately ive seen a lot more progamers adopt a strategy of air control first, then hydra switching, in order to make the protoss defensive with his corsairs instead of using them for harassment and having to invest more money into anti air (watch games on chain reaction, jaedong hoejja etc)
Air control first with muta or scourge?
I know its 2017 and I apologize for bumping this ancient post but I recently got back into the game after watching the 2017 ASLs / remastered hype. I'm basically one of those noobs who play almost exclusively FS, at least at this point in time.
well you cant muta switch against a lot of +1 corsair, you first need to kill them with scourge/hydras. In the meantime, you either play 5 hatch hydra then lurker or 6 hatch hydra.
On June 14 2013 14:49 blueblimp wrote: This build seemed to fall out of fashion in pro BW, but I could never figure out why since I don't remember pro Protosses finding a good counter. Anyone know why?
The Neo-Bisu build was doing okay against it for a while. But a good old hydra break is always good. Also the overuse of Fighting Spirit during the last few years with its easy 4 bases made this build a bit less relevant. But for example on map where it's harder to secure 4 bases like HBR, this remains a great build (although I believe drop play is probably the best strategy on HBR).
So on FS it's best to turtle on 4 bases to hive? Then what? Defliers first?
a zerg playing 3 hatch spire into 5 hatch hydra in general tries to strike a balance between delaying the protoss 3rd base with enough units and not making too many units early on when protoss stays on 2 base. since the close 3rd base on FS is really easy to take, maintaining the correct balance in really hard. as a response, (combined with protoss mostly having lots of corsairs because of neo bisu build) zergs try to play it as defensive as possible in order to get an earlier 6th hatch and if the protoss takes his 3rd, they use the time to get a 4th base with the 7th hatch. unless you make lots of 5 hatch hydra and try to bust before storm.
apart from that you can play 3 hatch spire into 4 base 6 hatch sunk/spore with another main/nat. this turns into either 8 hatch hydra (trying to get map control with masssssss hydras, forcing engagements in order to burn all his storms while using 350apm Jaedong micro) or 8 hatch lurker/sunken (defending the bridges, going for defiler and taking your 5th/6th base while harassing his bases until you hit 200/200 or get defiler or he lost all army attacking your defence, typical Larva textbook style)
On June 15 2013 08:59 FyRe_DragOn wrote: Lately ive seen a lot more progamers adopt a strategy of air control first, then hydra switching, in order to make the protoss defensive with his corsairs instead of using them for harassment and having to invest more money into anti air (watch games on chain reaction, jaedong hoejja etc)
Air control first with muta or scourge?
the build dragon was talking about is most likely 3 hatch spire into 5 hatch muta/scourge with 2 gas, then mostly transitioning into 6 hatch hydra. this build is rather volatile/tricky (imo) to play as zerg, especially if protoss didnt lose his 1st/2nd corsairs. you will be defending the first zealot attack with mutas and max 1 sunken, while having enough scourge to deter any corsair attack. this should make the protoss invest more gas into antiair, while you have a small timing to harass with your mutas and getting the 6 hatch hydra going. (you can also stay on 5 hatch and followup with a hydra bust while protoss is busy getting anti air, see Soulkey vs Bisu on Andromeda ASL3 Ro16) you cannot lose mutas or scourge for free, but it is really easy to do so against corsairs. you mostly try to keep mutas out on the map randomly and try to attack probes/hts when you see corsairs near your base. a different version is 3 hatch spire into 5 hatch muta/scourge with 3 gas, focusing on getting more mutas and way more scourge in order to outmass the corsairs (while defending with sunken vs ground).
well you cant muta switch against a lot of +1 corsair, you first need to kill them with scourge/hydras. In the meantime, you either play 5 hatch hydra then lurker or 6 hatch hydra.
So what is the timing difference between 3 base spire 5 hatch hydra vs 6 hatch hydra? Also, why is 6 hatch hydra okay vs +1 sair/speedlot but too greedy against the 4gate/2archon timing push described in the OP? Does aggression start later or not as much ground aggression as the 2 arhcon timing? And what is the difference in the protoss BO anyways (difference between 2archon timing push vs +1 sair/speedlot)?
well you cant muta switch against a lot of +1 corsair, you first need to kill them with scourge/hydras. In the meantime, you either play 5 hatch hydra then lurker or 6 hatch hydra.
So what is the timing difference between 3 base spire 5 hatch hydra vs 6 hatch hydra? Also, why is 6 hatch hydra okay vs +1 sair/speedlot but too greedy against the 4gate/2archon timing push described in the OP? Does aggression start later or not as much ground aggression as the 2 archon timing? And what is the difference in the protoss BO anyways (difference between 2archon timing push vs +1 sair/speedlot)? Is the 2 archon timing just a possible timing transition from neo bisu?
On June 29 2017 20:54 [S]ickle wrote: So what is the timing difference between 3 base spire 5 hatch hydra vs 6 hatch hydra? Also, why is 6 hatch hydra okay vs +1 sair/speedlot but too greedy against the 4gate/2archon timing push described in the OP? Does aggression start later or not as much ground aggression as the 2 archon timing? And what is the difference in the protoss BO anyways (difference between 2archon timing push vs +1 sair/speedlot)? Is the 2 archon timing just a possible timing transition from neo bisu?
1. 1 more hatchery, later units 2. 6 hatch is fine, but you need good simcity and extra sunkens against zealot archon. The OP was written at a time when simcity wasn't perfected as nowadays. 3. Both builds are described in LP here. The differences are simple: one build gets +1 sairs and speedlots, with slightly later archives, while the other focuses on having 2 archons with zealots at a certain timing. Of course you can make archons with your first templars with the modern build(against muta first) and follow up with a very strong sair/archon/speedlot timing but the timings would be completely different compared to the 4gate build.