|
10387 Posts
Or, "The New Bisu Build" (lol)
originally I had planned on writing this guide as a celebration of reaching C- (2 games away lol) but a combination of midterms/internet going to shit prevented me from playing iCCup >: I reached C- quite a while ago lol, but I also stat reset recently.. time to achieve it again keke
The Forge FE: Refer to this or Liquipedia so you can be as greedy as possible!
It is highly important to have your timings very tight when playing this build! Practice with a computer before trying against a real person 
The Scouting:
Probe: Your probe should, at the very least, be able to survive to see the Lair (if your multitask sucks for scouting try this UMS). If not, send out a second probe to scout the instant your first dies. Take note whether or not his second gas timing is early, or if he has relatively few drones. If you're kept in the dark.. well keep a tight wall w/ Zealot/Probe at your wallin, and be wary of Hydra bust. Rushing out the Sair will be a priority so you know how to react.
-3 Hatch Hydra
+1 Sair/Speedlot is designed to fight 3 Base Spire 5/6 Hatch [insert unit] builds, so you will have to abandon ship. You will need at least 5+ cannons at your nat, and do a fast tech to Templar Archives for Storm. Rush out the sair for additional info, add additional gates at your main.
Alternatively, you can do a coinflip and add additional gateways (3-4) for a massive Speedlot timing attack. This only works if Zerg is trying to be greedy and makes a few Hydras and pumps almost exclusively drones however. If Zerg kept pumping more Hydras, it's an almost unwinnable situation for you.
-4 Hatch no Gas
+1 Sair/Speedlot (in this iteration) is not efficient vs this build. You should get a quick Templar Archives (for Storm) and additional cannons (depending on how many Hydras he pumps, which you scout out with your Corsairs). 5 Gate Dragoon allin is supposed to work against this build too, and adding more gateways for a +1 Speedlot allin may work too.
The Build Order:
-Zealots
Pretty much keep making the Zealots during your entire teching process, with some slight cuts to get key tech buildings out faster. If the Zerg chooses to post his Zerglings in front of your natural, you can try being slightly aggressive against these Zerglings once you have 2+ Zealots.
Dragoon
Optional. Usually built instead of a third Zealot, and has various pros/cons to it. You will need to take your natural gas a bit faster if to keep up with tech timings, but at the same time you can potentially snipe any scouting Overlords. On certain maps (such as Fortress, the natural) you can use a Dragoon to safely take potshots at Drones, or not deal with the troubles of simcity. However, the cons would be that the Dragoon has less DPS than a Zealot, so generally most Protosses don't get the Dragoon.
-Second Gas
Either slightly before Core's completion or when the Core is completed.
-Stargate
Try to get this out as fast as you can, so you can kill Overlords before the Scourge come out or to see if he's doing some tricky strategic play
-+1 weapon
Researched almost immediately after making the Stargate
-Citadel
On February 24 2011 19:20 JMave wrote:
and just some info, if you want +1 attack to finish with zealot speed, you can start your adun at around 20% of +1 attack completion and research leg speed right after adun is done.
I generally place the Citadel after the first Corsair.
-2nd Gate
Most pros like to place the second gate at the nat, the reason being that it reduces the rush distance from the Gateway to the enemy's base. However there's nothing wrong with placing it at your main. In fact, a 2nd Gate is optional if you make Zealots nearly continuously from the first Gateway. You can choose to either place a 2nd Gateway after the Citadel, or delay it in favor of a faster Templar Archives. Placing the 2nd Gateway is safer, and gives you a stronger reinforcement should you break the Zerg, but the faster Templar Archives is generally preferred. On maps that are really good for Zerg simcity, it's better to delay the 2nd Gate.
-Leg Speed
This and +1 should finish around the same time if done correctly, or it finishes a little before +1.
-Corsair
The centerpiece of Modern PvZ! Use this unit to determine whether or not the Zerg is going Standard or Strategic. In regards to 3 Hatch Hydra, use it to kill Overlords to limit Hydra production and to see if Zerg is going fully all-in or transitioning out (making lair/pumping drones). In almost any case, continue to produce to at least 6 Corsairs (more against Muta builds). In most cases you should be able to get at least 1 Overlord kill before Scourge come out if you played correctly so far. Remember to trap a Probe for Corsair Stacking!
-+1 Air Weapons
Usually researched right after the first Corsair. You can also research it before Stargate finishes if you want a faster +1.
-6 Zealots
Or 5 Zealot/1 Dragoon. This is the timing to move out! Your upgrades aren't done but it should finish when you reach the enemy base, or soon aftewrads. If the enemy Zerg is mainly relying on Zerglings to scout your Zealot timing, drive away the Zerglings when you have 3-4 Zealots to keep him in the dark.
-Templar Archives
Build as soon as possible without cutting Probes or Zealots. Usually you build it after you push out w/ the 6 Zealots. Should you choose to stay on one Gateway instead of two, you can build this faster.
-2 Gateways
Or 3 Gateways if you chose to delay the 2nd Gateway for a faster Archives.
-2 Gateways
Usually right after those previous 2-3 Gates, depending on your scouting. Your Gate count should be at 6 now. Army production now takes precedence over Probe production, and you'll have to cut probes for a bit to keep producing Zealot/Templar.
+2 Attack Upgrade
Protoss can do a second big timing attack with a Zealot/Templar/Archon after the first, bolstered by this upgrade should the Zerg choose to delay the Lurker Upgrade enough.
Psi Storm
Depending on what unit composition Zerg goes for, this can be delayed in favor for faster Gateways and +2.
All-in Variation
On May 18 2011 14:22 JMave wrote:
You should also add in the all-in variation of 4 gates where you delay the second and plant down all three once your stargate is approx mid-way. However, this is only strong on open maps where it is quite hard to have a completely tight simcity like Bloody Ridge, Python and Longinus.
If your opponent opens for fast hydra lurk, then you are dead but if he goes mutas, then you are in a good spot to win it right there. Use your zeals to distract the mutas away from your base and net as many drone kills as well as structure kills i.e. spire, hatchery.
Cut probes shortly before planting down those additional Gateways. Like what JMave implies, you probably shouldn't do this on Fighting Spirit (our oh-so-favorite standard map). And so that it's clear, you shouldn't cut Corsair production.
The Attack
Like said, begin moving out with your first 6-8 Zealots towards the Zerg's nat or third. If the simcity sucks, they only have 2 sunkens/less and little/no army, and can't glitch drones around the sunkens, and your +1/Speed upgrades are done, ATTACK! In fact, too many Zergs at the D/D+ level will die to this first timing attack because they think 2 Sunkens by itself is enough (remember to continue macroing so you can reinforce your attack)
However it is extremely important to not throw away your Zealots for nothing! If they have a good defense, then hold off on attacking and keep poking around at both of the Zerg's fronts. From this you must be able to assess what exactly they are going to follow up with for you to transition properly
The Transition
-If you dove in and attacked..
If your attack was retardedly successful and you kill a base (2 hatches, drones, sunk, evo/hydra den etc..), there's almost no way the Zerg can come back from it. The safest route is to continue with the build, and just kill the Zerg with the next subsequent attack. Or you could be riskier and greedier by staying on 4 gates and then getting your Third (and then getting more gates afterwards). Don't get too careless though, losing a won game is the WORST.
If the attack went badly, as in you lost all your Zealots and didn't really kill anything other than, say, a sunken and a few drones, you better cannon up at your front and research Storm ASAP. Especially if he went Hydras
-If you didn't commit to an attack..
From here, you need use your Zealots to figure out what unit composition the Zerg is going to use. This can be done by poking around the Zerg's bases.
*If you see Hydras..
Research Storm ASAPly, and continue to macro Zealot/Templar out of your gates. Use your Sair-fleet to keep the Overlord count low and from there you can either A) use the +2 timing to attack with Zealot/Templar army while making a third or B) hang back and get a third, transitioning to Dragoon/Templar/Zealot deathball army. In regards to the Robo timing, the safest route is to get the Robotics after your Fourth Gateway, but in my opinion is overly. A more standard safe route is to get it after your Sixth Gateway, and the "greediest" would be to continue to pressure with Zealot/Templar to figure out the Lurker timing or getting it after you claim your third (to which then you get your Robo immediately). Your choice.
*I see Lurker Eggs/spines!
Delay the 5th and 6th Gateways for a fast Robo, but don't cancel +1 Air Weapons yet. Wait for it to complete and research Dragoon Range right after. Delay the Lurkers from containing you w/ your Zealots and get the Obs out as soon as possible so you don't lose your simcity to Lurkers. From there, if he's going for 4 Base Turtle play, you could choose to go for a 2-base allin for a faster timing attack, but generally you should get a third and then amass the Dragoon/Templar/Zealot army to attack.
*Mutaliskssss
Generally, if you see a lot of Zerglings for defense (But be sure to check for Lurker Eggs), its a strong indicator of Muta/Scourge play. 2 Cannons at your main, along with 1 by your nat min line for defense, and morph your first few HT into Archons. Build up Sair count past 6 and continue to pump Zealot/Templar, defend with a Sair/Archon mix. Use the +2 timing to try another attack if the front is open enough, and get a third to transition. Or, a riskier, greedier option is to get your Third after the fourth Gateway, but before 5th/6th.
At the very latest, get that Robo when you get your third! There's no reason to delay the Robo any further than that
Other Notes
-Harass! This build gives you air superiority, so you should use that advantage to harass the Zerg w/ Storms or Zealots
-Don't lose your initial sairs. Or at least try your very best not to. This build is already very tight on resources, so having to make extra sairs will make things harder
-This build requires quite a fair amount of multitasking to be used effectively, due to the Corsair harass involved. Still, one can still win quite a fair amount of games with this without doing extensive Corsair harassing.
-When it comes to the big Dragoon/Zealot/Templar timing attack, having those +1 Corsairs around will be very handy in helping to keep your Obs alive
-Most of the time, you'll have to only build 1 cannon early-game when you Forge-FE. Building a second cannon a little before your Zealot count hits 6 is recommended though, and the cannon at your main should be built when the Zerg's Spire finishes (which you should get from the Corsair scout
-Don't get pylon-blocked. Such a delay would be baaad, especially early-mid game.
-Be active with the Corsairs! Even if you only have a few left, the scouting information you get is invaluable. One especially important thing to take note of is the Hive timing. When he's going for the Hive tech, you should go for the timing attack before they can get the Defiler or Cracklings.
-If you didn't already know, remember to trap a Probe for Sair Stacking!
I was able to put together this build order by watching some reps, watching a lot of PvZ VODs and playing a lot on ICCUP (not recently tho D;). If there's anything I forgot to add, any questions, or corrections from those of higher skill levels, please free to ask/give input!
now you can imitate Bisu lololol 8D
|
I'm glad I'm not a zerg right now.
Edit: This is a really detailed guide, thanks!
|
Very very nice summary of the new era pvz build :D
|
Nice, I really like this because you explain each step and the motivations. It also feels more flexible than the rigid BO's. It will help me get my game plan straight.
I try to get my robo ASAPly for the shuttle and obs, soon after archives. Is it worth it to cut a gateway for this so I can do a zeal drop or storm drop?
|
10387 Posts
On February 20 2011 14:02 J.Dong wrote:
Nice, I really like this because you explain each step and the motivations. It also feels more flexible than the rigid BO's. It will help me get my game plan straight.
I try to get my robo ASAPly for the shuttle and obs, soon after archives. Is it worth it to cut a gateway for this so I can do a zeal drop or storm drop?
It depends. Delaying the sixth gate will weaken your second timing attack, and delay your third. If the Zerg went for a mass Hydra composition, then you run the risk of just dying to a mass Hydra attack. However going for such an early drop harass can pay off beautifully, so if you feel like you can make the risk pay off for itself by all means go for it (just don't make it your standard build lol)
|
nice writeup. i disagree with a few things though.
-1+ air weapons should be researched immediately after zealot speed, before templar archives and more gateways. The point is to do a quick 1+zealot attack, followed up by air control, and a slow 1+ air will get overwhelmed by mass muta/scourge counters.
-2nd gas timing is pretty important, should be right after the stargate.
-imo a robotics should be built after 4th gateway vs 3hatch spire>5hatch followup that isnt muta. If hes opening muta, he will have to stick to it in order to try and hold air superiority, and be unable to switch to lurkers right away. Any kind of hydralisk opening can switch to lurkers at any time, so a robotics is necessary in order to not get contained when that does happen.
If your opponent goes hydralisk and not lurkers for a while, you can just not build an observatory/observers until you need. The robotics also gives you the option of templar/dt drops.
-If your 6 zealot attack actually killed a base, you should definitely not expand right away. Zergs only option at this point is to all in with whatever forces he has at his remaining bases, hoping to overwhelm your cannons before you have storm upgraded. If you skip gateways and try to expand this just plays into his hands and could potentially give away an ez win.
-against lurkers, if you got 1+ air at the right time, you wont have to cancel it in order to get dragoon range. canceling 1+ pretty much defeats the entire purpose of this build..
you can also get a 3rd base without needing additional gateways vs both lurkers and mutalisks
|
10387 Posts
On February 20 2011 14:26 FyRe_DragOn wrote:
nice writeup. i disagree with a few things though.
-1+ air weapons should be researched immediately after zealot speed, before templar archives and more gateways. The point is to do a quick 1+zealot attack, followed up by air control, and a slow 1+ air will get overwhelmed by mass muta/scourge counters.
-against lurkers, if you got 1+ air at the right time, you wont have to cancel it in order to get dragoon range. canceling 1+ pretty much defeats the entire purpose of this build..
You might be right, originally when I wrote the previous iteration of this build, +1 Air Weapons wasn't included. The +1 Air Weapons is actually a pretty recent development in PvZ, so I haven't been able to get the exact timings from reps (had to refer to VODs). I will do some more research after PL lol
-2nd gas timing is pretty important, should be right after the stargate.
Ok, well that could be added to the other thread/Liquipedia. Unless that's really specific for this build..
-imo a robotics should be built after 4th gateway vs 3hatch spire>5hatch followup that isnt muta. If hes opening muta, he will have to stick to it in order to try and hold air superiority, and be unable to switch to lurkers right away. Any kind of hydralisk opening can switch to lurkers at any time, so a robotics is necessary in order to not get contained when that does happen.
200/200 is still a big investment, and to delay those additional 2 gates against a mass Hydra strat is really risky imo. The solution to this kind of tech switch is to just keep up with your mass Zealot/Templar to hold and then pressure so that you can see when the Lurker eggs are going to be morphing (to which you'll get a robo). Or you can get the Robo after the Sixth Gate instead
-If your 6 zealot attack actually killed a base, you should definitely not expand right away. Zergs only option at this point is to all in with whatever forces he has at his remaining bases, hoping to overwhelm your cannons before you have storm upgraded. If you skip gateways and try to expand this just plays into his hands and could potentially give away an ez win.
Disagree, you will have just killed 2 Hatcheries, a bunch of drones and units if your attack was successful. His production capability will be utter shit at that moment, and your 4 gates production should be enough to hold off any attack by him (remember you have your sair fleet too, so you can go around killing his ovies too to limit his production).
you can also get a 3rd base without needing additional gateways vs both lurkers and mutalisks
That's probably true as an alternative option (on certain maps), but generally I've seen Bisu get his third pretty late in favor of those 6 gates for that second timing attack.
anyways I haven't been able to play for a couple of weeks and this was based off an outline I made a month ago or so.. I decided to make this because I feel like a lot of ppl were unnessarily having trouble in PvZ. I need to refine it though, which I will ofc
|
Ok, well that could be added to the other thread/Liquipedia. Unless that's really specific for this build..
yeah its really specific to this build, why would I talk about something else here? The one Bisu uses almost every pvz these days lol.
200/200 is still a big investment, and to delay those additional 2 gates against a mass Hydra strat is really risky imo. The solution to this kind of tech switch is to just keep up with your mass Zealot/Templar to hold and then pressure so that you can see when the Lurker eggs are going to be morphing (to which you'll get a robo). Or you can get the Robo after the Sixth Gate instead
yes it is a big investment, but it is necessary. If you see lurker eggs and you do not have a robotics, that is way too late. The zerg will be able to contain you, cut off your 3rd and kill it, or macro up to 4-5 bases at his hearts desire. Basically it gives zerg map control for the entire duration of (robotics + observatory + at least 1 ob build time), which is about 3x as long as he should in any evenly matched game. Its enough to give zerg a huge advantage.
Getting the robotics after 6th gateway works when the zerg stays on pure hydralisk for a while, but you dont know when that is going to happen and when it isnt, so its better not to put yourself into a huge disadvantage some of the time.
Again, you can just NOT build your observatory and observers until necessary when seeing pure hydralisk, which with just 2 observers (any decent toss will want at least 2) makes up more than half the gas costs of the observer tech tree, so it doesnt have to be a full investment if you dont need it. And then you get the option of making shuttles for harass too, which would have great synergy with the mass corsairs already employed.
Disagree, you will have just killed 2 Hatcheries, a bunch of drones and units if your attack was successful. His production capability will be utter shit at that moment, and your 4 gates production should be enough to hold off any attack by him (remember you have your sair fleet too, so you can go around killing his ovies too to limit his production).
OK, in your OP you did not mention killing all the fighting units zerg had. I was under the assumption that the scenario being painted was one in which you managed to kill off the sunken, a few drones, and snipe the hatchery before reinforcing zerg units came to chase or kill off your zealots.
If you somehow manage to overwhelm all zergs defense and all his reinforcements with 2gateways worth of zealots, you already won and what you do thereafter doesnt really matter, the zerg shouldve already typed gg.
On the other hand, if zerg still has hydralisks and just pumped drones for too long before massing hydras, lost the hatchery and some drones/sunkens, he still has a (small) chance of overwhelming your front with an all in hydralisk counter attack.
Any attempt to expand by the protoss will give zerg a better chance at pulling this off, by spreading the protoss forces too thinly and reducing gateway count. Corsair harass during the time of attack would not much matter either, because zergs supply would already be extremely low, so losing a few lords would not hinder reinforcements, and the decisive battle would most likely be over by the time you manage to pick off a significant amount (or theyd more likely actually be involved in that battle, because the zerg would opt to bring them in force to in ensure adequate detection for his all in attack)
or corrections from those of higher skill levels,
thats what im trying to do atm. plz respect my advice. If you disagree with it I can explain my thinking, but you dont seem to be too open to the corrections you asked for atm.
|
10387 Posts
On February 20 2011 15:42 FyRe_DragOn wrote:Show nested quote +Ok, well that could be added to the other thread/Liquipedia. Unless that's really specific for this build.. yeah its really specific to this build, why would I talk about something else here? The one Bisu uses almost every pvz these days lol. Show nested quote +200/200 is still a big investment, and to delay those additional 2 gates against a mass Hydra strat is really risky imo. The solution to this kind of tech switch is to just keep up with your mass Zealot/Templar to hold and then pressure so that you can see when the Lurker eggs are going to be morphing (to which you'll get a robo). Or you can get the Robo after the Sixth Gate instead yes it is a big investment, but it is necessary. If you see lurker eggs and you do not have a robotics, that is way too late. The zerg will be able to contain you, cut off your 3rd and kill it, or macro up to 4-5 bases at his hearts desire. Basically it gives zerg map control for the entire duration of (robotics + observatory + at least 1 ob build time), which is about 3x as long as he should in any evenly matched game. Its enough to give zerg a huge advantage. Getting the robotics after 6th gateway works when the zerg stays on pure hydralisk for a while, but you dont know when that is going to happen and when it isnt, so its better not to put yourself into a huge disadvantage some of the time. Again, you can just NOT build your observatory and observers until necessary when seeing pure hydralisk, which with just 2 observers (any decent toss will want at least 2) makes up more than half the gas costs of the observer tech tree, so it doesnt have to be a full investment if you dont need it. And then you get the option of making shuttles for harass too, which would have great synergy with the mass corsairs already employed. Show nested quote +Disagree, you will have just killed 2 Hatcheries, a bunch of drones and units if your attack was successful. His production capability will be utter shit at that moment, and your 4 gates production should be enough to hold off any attack by him (remember you have your sair fleet too, so you can go around killing his ovies too to limit his production). OK, in your OP you did not mention killing all the fighting units zerg had. I was under the assumption that the scenario being painted was one in which you managed to kill off the sunken, a few drones, and snipe the hatchery before reinforcing zerg units came to chase or kill off your zealots. If you somehow manage to overwhelm all zergs defense and all his reinforcements with 2gateways worth of zealots, you already won and what you do thereafter doesnt really matter, the zerg shouldve already typed gg. On the other hand, if zerg still has hydralisks and just pumped drones for too long before massing hydras, lost the hatchery and some drones/sunkens, he still has a (small) chance of overwhelming your front with an all in hydralisk counter attack. Any attempt to expand by the protoss will give zerg a better chance at pulling this off, by spreading the protoss forces too thinly and reducing gateway count. Corsair harass during the time of attack would not much matter either, because zergs supply would already be extremely low, so losing a few lords would not hinder reinforcements, and the decisive battle would most likely be over by the time you manage to pick off a significant amount (or theyd more likely actually be involved in that battle, because the zerg would opt to bring them in force to in ensure adequate detection for his all in attack) thats what im trying to do atm. plz respect my advice. If you disagree with it I can explain my thinking, but you dont seem to be too open to the corrections you asked for atm.
alright then I'll add the gas tidbit then, thanks for that one. I still maintain that getting a Robo after the sixth Gate or Third is best though against mass Hydra, and that you should be able to see the Lurkers in time by keeping up the pressure with the Zealot/Templar army. However you're route is definitely the safest, so I'll add your thoughts into the guide though.
As for the thing about the response for killing the third, I suppose my scenario was a bit specific, so I'll edit that too. I respect your advice, me making counterarguments does not necessarily mean disrespect, but rather a way of getting you to explain further. Thanks for the remarks :D
Edit: Turns out, after looking very closely at some PvZ VODs the Nat Gas timing is definitely not right after the Stargate. So I made that re-revision, but your other points are valid (like the +1 Air Weapons).
|
10387 Posts
made corrections and revisions. Still not sure on some stuff, but I'll keep looking into it!
|
10387 Posts
fawk pls delete >< even worse wtffff
|
Amazing that can help despite being C-. I'm B and I find this very helpful. I've heard of Bisu's new style of not getting dragoons and slowly accumulating corsairs, and using zealots to fight mass hydras for as long as possible, but I didn't know about the details.
Thanks for this!
|
thanks, I haven't really learnt this build yet. I'm B- level myself but this is handy, thanks.
|
I've been using this build a lot lately (read:every non 3hatch hydra pvz that I FE'd, as in 90%), and I find it to be pretty flexible.
Here are some of my thoughts on it. They totally >might< be incorrect, but worked for me on good zergs better and more regularly than any alternative I know.
1)Second cannon.
I prefer to make 2nd cannon only when 1st cannon does not cover both passage and nexus(gay maps) or zerg made 6+ lings. Now, if it's a map where if you start 2nd cannon when lings pop, and they still reach you before it finished or is near completion(so much that you can't really block with probes, and there's still a danger of 8 lings from 12hatch build), then I like to start 2nd cannon, hotkey it, and be ready to instantly cancel it once I see drones pop. Gateway/core are still delayed for 150, but at least you get the minerals back and map risk is minimized.
2)Gas spending. Here's what I do: once core finishes, stargate -> goon. Usually I have resources for both asap. Now, why dragoon before +1? First of all, having +1 too fast won't be very efficient anyway, since you actually need _some_ zealots to go with it. Second, dragoon is a cool unit that can snipe an ovie if it's still in your main\nat, and on some maps like destination, where speedlings might want to chew on your 2nd gas, unprotected by cannons, getting that goon is necessary to shoot at them, while zealot is guarding your passage. Also, goon is awesome for shooting containing lings in the legs - they might be provoked on cannons, or, if they are on hold, they're taking damage, and if zerg is microing them and you have more APM, you're getting ahead on time.
Okay, so after dragoon, on 100 gas, I get +1, then sair; then, once sairs are being produced, I'll get adun ASAP but so that it won't interfere with non-stop sair production. Thinking that, if anything, I can attack with slowlots +1 and it'll finish a bit later, but I can't really go with 4sairs vs scourge.
After adun finishes, speed - you should have the gas. After that, non-stop sair production -> 200 gas -> archives.
3)Second gas timing.
I get my second gas like this: stargate -> goon -> +1 -> 2nd gas -> pylon.
This guarantees things like non-stop sair production, speed matched with +1, +1 air before archives, archives done on 9 zealots and 300 gas for 2 HTs.
I usually have a 7zealot/1goon attack going out before speed/+1, finishing somewhere midmap, followed by 2 zealots reinforcing (whey're out few seconds after upgrades finish).
3)I get my adun when I'm about to start 2nd sair.
4)Second gate timing.
Okay, this one is totally up to you. Cut 2 probes, get an extra zealot with attack, etc. Usually I take it after adun before speed. Sometimes, with speed. Sometimes, before adun.
It depends on things like: whether you play vs overpool, 12hatch, did you make 1 cannon or 2, etc.
The "after adun before speed" works for me on the most common "play vs overpool, make 2 cannons before nexus, nexus on 15, pylon, gate".
If, for some reason, I've lost my probe scout before lair start timing, and I can't get another in, no matter what, and zerg has a cheesy reputation, I go for a variation: add 2nd gateway during core and move out with 3zealots/goon. If zerg made many lings, I might get 5zealots/goon. If probe slip attempts reveal that zerg has speedlings, I stop worrying about a hydra bust and stay back.
You'd need to cut a few probes for 2nd gateway production not resulting in delay of tech. The danger that could undermine your "scout-pressure" moveout is, if when you're moving out, he has not much lings and no speed, but when you're halfway onto map, it finishes and he has a ton of lings. Personally I see zergs who get lair->speed have it earlier, but this is my assumption.
If it happened when you reached zergs nat/3rd, you can hug hatcheries/get behind sim city/ hug minerals/whatever and have an okay trade even against superior ling count. Then, you're good since he spent too much larva on soon-useless lings; your zealot attack with +1 is no longer possible(not enough zealots), but a zealot/archon/+1sair follow-up will be deadly.
If it's 3hatch hydra, you'll meet the incoming force somewhere in the middle of map, and they'll have to micro long enough for you to add cannons.
5) Further tech timings:
Okaay, there are things to get later: namely robo, goon range, storm and your 3rd nexus,
Unfortunatelly, I'm not sure enough on any of those as far as reacting to zerg goes; at least, not sure enough to give advice. For example, in my games with Dragon, I'd try to get storm/robo after 3rd(after 6-7 gates), and he'd mostly go for hydra -> hydra/lurker; and depending on earlier game, sometimes I'd get my nexus separated and killed, sometimes I'd get it up and get a few cannons/guarded enough, but unable to transfer probes, and sometimes it'd all go nicely. Since I don't have a definitive answer, I need to play more to be able to say.
6) Using your force: same as OP. Go in if you can do damage. If you can't do damage, do not go in and try to separate the hydra force into two blocks. Once you have a sair mass that's hotkeyed with stuck probe and large enough(read:5-6) count to kill scourge, go and harrass. If your ground army is comparable to hydra army, go and attack with your force, and use the distraction to kill ovies with sairs, since hydras are shooting zealots. No more ovies and you're starting to lose battle due to zerg reinforcements? Zealots back off, sairs go raid another currently naked base; also a good time to try and slip DTs in.
As far as later game goes, aim to deny expansions while taking bases yourself; and as far as busts into sunken/lurk, you need a reaver or an estabilished economy advantage.
7)Weird stuff:
Okay, this build is hard to outline because early game is flexible. Not only your nexus timing varies on zerg builds; sometimes you need to scout with 2 probes, sometimes you play greedy and don't scout at all(maps where it beats overpool and you're still prepared to autolose to 9pool).
Also, pylons. Once your 2nd gate is done, your production round consists of 4 probes, 2 zealots and a sair. That's because 2 probe build time equals 1 zealot build time equals 1 sair build time.
That's 10 supply, so making 1 pylon regularly will regularly make you supply capped. Be ready to alternate between 2pylons and 1, or to cut 2 probes(not recommended).
|
Vatican City State2594 Posts
Great post, glad you found the time to make it and thanks again for the help! This will be very useful for me on ICC!
|
Thanks for the guide Arvick. i've been trying imitating the new Bisu's build but lost in the midst after the 5-6 +1 zeals push. Keep' em coming. Bookmarked this thread!
|
@ gas timing hrm ya i might have made a mistake there. In the vods i watched they show gas being mined when the stargate is complete, it could have been made a bit earlier than that but I couldnt tell for sure. Most important is to get it early enough though so that you have enough to continue templar tech later.
and 1+ air should be made immediately after leg speed with the next 100 gas (aside from corsair production)
|
Thanks for this excellent write-up man. I have been using this build recently and really like it; article really help clear up some of the things I was hazy on such as second gas timing and more importantly how to transition and react to the various things your opponent is doing.
Great work man.
|
10387 Posts
Made some corrections, regarding the +1 Air weapons timing and response against the Lurkers. Added some notes to the "other" and build. I'm fairly certain that there's still more I can add or correct, so its still somewhat of a work in progress  I'm glad you guys are finding this guide useful ^^
|
Thats why protoss can beat me so easily (sad face) !!
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
