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10387 Posts
Or, "The New Bisu Build" (lol)
originally I had planned on writing this guide as a celebration of reaching C- (2 games away lol) but a combination of midterms/internet going to shit prevented me from playing iCCup >: I reached C- quite a while ago lol, but I also stat reset recently.. time to achieve it again keke
The Forge FE: Refer to this or Liquipedia so you can be as greedy as possible!
It is highly important to have your timings very tight when playing this build! Practice with a computer before trying against a real person 
The Scouting:
Probe: Your probe should, at the very least, be able to survive to see the Lair (if your multitask sucks for scouting try this UMS). If not, send out a second probe to scout the instant your first dies. Take note whether or not his second gas timing is early, or if he has relatively few drones. If you're kept in the dark.. well keep a tight wall w/ Zealot/Probe at your wallin, and be wary of Hydra bust. Rushing out the Sair will be a priority so you know how to react.
-3 Hatch Hydra
+1 Sair/Speedlot is designed to fight 3 Base Spire 5/6 Hatch [insert unit] builds, so you will have to abandon ship. You will need at least 5+ cannons at your nat, and do a fast tech to Templar Archives for Storm. Rush out the sair for additional info, add additional gates at your main.
Alternatively, you can do a coinflip and add additional gateways (3-4) for a massive Speedlot timing attack. This only works if Zerg is trying to be greedy and makes a few Hydras and pumps almost exclusively drones however. If Zerg kept pumping more Hydras, it's an almost unwinnable situation for you.
-4 Hatch no Gas
+1 Sair/Speedlot (in this iteration) is not efficient vs this build. You should get a quick Templar Archives (for Storm) and additional cannons (depending on how many Hydras he pumps, which you scout out with your Corsairs). 5 Gate Dragoon allin is supposed to work against this build too, and adding more gateways for a +1 Speedlot allin may work too.
The Build Order:
-Zealots
Pretty much keep making the Zealots during your entire teching process, with some slight cuts to get key tech buildings out faster. If the Zerg chooses to post his Zerglings in front of your natural, you can try being slightly aggressive against these Zerglings once you have 2+ Zealots.
Dragoon
Optional. Usually built instead of a third Zealot, and has various pros/cons to it. You will need to take your natural gas a bit faster if to keep up with tech timings, but at the same time you can potentially snipe any scouting Overlords. On certain maps (such as Fortress, the natural) you can use a Dragoon to safely take potshots at Drones, or not deal with the troubles of simcity. However, the cons would be that the Dragoon has less DPS than a Zealot, so generally most Protosses don't get the Dragoon.
-Second Gas
Either slightly before Core's completion or when the Core is completed.
-Stargate
Try to get this out as fast as you can, so you can kill Overlords before the Scourge come out or to see if he's doing some tricky strategic play
-+1 weapon
Researched almost immediately after making the Stargate
-Citadel
On February 24 2011 19:20 JMave wrote:
and just some info, if you want +1 attack to finish with zealot speed, you can start your adun at around 20% of +1 attack completion and research leg speed right after adun is done.
I generally place the Citadel after the first Corsair.
-2nd Gate
Most pros like to place the second gate at the nat, the reason being that it reduces the rush distance from the Gateway to the enemy's base. However there's nothing wrong with placing it at your main. In fact, a 2nd Gate is optional if you make Zealots nearly continuously from the first Gateway. You can choose to either place a 2nd Gateway after the Citadel, or delay it in favor of a faster Templar Archives. Placing the 2nd Gateway is safer, and gives you a stronger reinforcement should you break the Zerg, but the faster Templar Archives is generally preferred. On maps that are really good for Zerg simcity, it's better to delay the 2nd Gate.
-Leg Speed
This and +1 should finish around the same time if done correctly, or it finishes a little before +1.
-Corsair
The centerpiece of Modern PvZ! Use this unit to determine whether or not the Zerg is going Standard or Strategic. In regards to 3 Hatch Hydra, use it to kill Overlords to limit Hydra production and to see if Zerg is going fully all-in or transitioning out (making lair/pumping drones). In almost any case, continue to produce to at least 6 Corsairs (more against Muta builds). In most cases you should be able to get at least 1 Overlord kill before Scourge come out if you played correctly so far. Remember to trap a Probe for Corsair Stacking!
-+1 Air Weapons
Usually researched right after the first Corsair. You can also research it before Stargate finishes if you want a faster +1.
-6 Zealots
Or 5 Zealot/1 Dragoon. This is the timing to move out! Your upgrades aren't done but it should finish when you reach the enemy base, or soon aftewrads. If the enemy Zerg is mainly relying on Zerglings to scout your Zealot timing, drive away the Zerglings when you have 3-4 Zealots to keep him in the dark.
-Templar Archives
Build as soon as possible without cutting Probes or Zealots. Usually you build it after you push out w/ the 6 Zealots. Should you choose to stay on one Gateway instead of two, you can build this faster.
-2 Gateways
Or 3 Gateways if you chose to delay the 2nd Gateway for a faster Archives.
-2 Gateways
Usually right after those previous 2-3 Gates, depending on your scouting. Your Gate count should be at 6 now. Army production now takes precedence over Probe production, and you'll have to cut probes for a bit to keep producing Zealot/Templar.
+2 Attack Upgrade
Protoss can do a second big timing attack with a Zealot/Templar/Archon after the first, bolstered by this upgrade should the Zerg choose to delay the Lurker Upgrade enough.
Psi Storm
Depending on what unit composition Zerg goes for, this can be delayed in favor for faster Gateways and +2.
All-in Variation
On May 18 2011 14:22 JMave wrote:
You should also add in the all-in variation of 4 gates where you delay the second and plant down all three once your stargate is approx mid-way. However, this is only strong on open maps where it is quite hard to have a completely tight simcity like Bloody Ridge, Python and Longinus.
If your opponent opens for fast hydra lurk, then you are dead but if he goes mutas, then you are in a good spot to win it right there. Use your zeals to distract the mutas away from your base and net as many drone kills as well as structure kills i.e. spire, hatchery.
Cut probes shortly before planting down those additional Gateways. Like what JMave implies, you probably shouldn't do this on Fighting Spirit (our oh-so-favorite standard map). And so that it's clear, you shouldn't cut Corsair production.
The Attack
Like said, begin moving out with your first 6-8 Zealots towards the Zerg's nat or third. If the simcity sucks, they only have 2 sunkens/less and little/no army, and can't glitch drones around the sunkens, and your +1/Speed upgrades are done, ATTACK! In fact, too many Zergs at the D/D+ level will die to this first timing attack because they think 2 Sunkens by itself is enough (remember to continue macroing so you can reinforce your attack)
However it is extremely important to not throw away your Zealots for nothing! If they have a good defense, then hold off on attacking and keep poking around at both of the Zerg's fronts. From this you must be able to assess what exactly they are going to follow up with for you to transition properly
The Transition
-If you dove in and attacked..
If your attack was retardedly successful and you kill a base (2 hatches, drones, sunk, evo/hydra den etc..), there's almost no way the Zerg can come back from it. The safest route is to continue with the build, and just kill the Zerg with the next subsequent attack. Or you could be riskier and greedier by staying on 4 gates and then getting your Third (and then getting more gates afterwards). Don't get too careless though, losing a won game is the WORST.
If the attack went badly, as in you lost all your Zealots and didn't really kill anything other than, say, a sunken and a few drones, you better cannon up at your front and research Storm ASAP. Especially if he went Hydras
-If you didn't commit to an attack..
From here, you need use your Zealots to figure out what unit composition the Zerg is going to use. This can be done by poking around the Zerg's bases.
*If you see Hydras..
Research Storm ASAPly, and continue to macro Zealot/Templar out of your gates. Use your Sair-fleet to keep the Overlord count low and from there you can either A) use the +2 timing to attack with Zealot/Templar army while making a third or B) hang back and get a third, transitioning to Dragoon/Templar/Zealot deathball army. In regards to the Robo timing, the safest route is to get the Robotics after your Fourth Gateway, but in my opinion is overly. A more standard safe route is to get it after your Sixth Gateway, and the "greediest" would be to continue to pressure with Zealot/Templar to figure out the Lurker timing or getting it after you claim your third (to which then you get your Robo immediately). Your choice.
*I see Lurker Eggs/spines!
Delay the 5th and 6th Gateways for a fast Robo, but don't cancel +1 Air Weapons yet. Wait for it to complete and research Dragoon Range right after. Delay the Lurkers from containing you w/ your Zealots and get the Obs out as soon as possible so you don't lose your simcity to Lurkers. From there, if he's going for 4 Base Turtle play, you could choose to go for a 2-base allin for a faster timing attack, but generally you should get a third and then amass the Dragoon/Templar/Zealot army to attack.
*Mutaliskssss
Generally, if you see a lot of Zerglings for defense (But be sure to check for Lurker Eggs), its a strong indicator of Muta/Scourge play. 2 Cannons at your main, along with 1 by your nat min line for defense, and morph your first few HT into Archons. Build up Sair count past 6 and continue to pump Zealot/Templar, defend with a Sair/Archon mix. Use the +2 timing to try another attack if the front is open enough, and get a third to transition. Or, a riskier, greedier option is to get your Third after the fourth Gateway, but before 5th/6th.
At the very latest, get that Robo when you get your third! There's no reason to delay the Robo any further than that
Other Notes
-Harass! This build gives you air superiority, so you should use that advantage to harass the Zerg w/ Storms or Zealots
-Don't lose your initial sairs. Or at least try your very best not to. This build is already very tight on resources, so having to make extra sairs will make things harder
-This build requires quite a fair amount of multitasking to be used effectively, due to the Corsair harass involved. Still, one can still win quite a fair amount of games with this without doing extensive Corsair harassing.
-When it comes to the big Dragoon/Zealot/Templar timing attack, having those +1 Corsairs around will be very handy in helping to keep your Obs alive
-Most of the time, you'll have to only build 1 cannon early-game when you Forge-FE. Building a second cannon a little before your Zealot count hits 6 is recommended though, and the cannon at your main should be built when the Zerg's Spire finishes (which you should get from the Corsair scout
-Don't get pylon-blocked. Such a delay would be baaad, especially early-mid game.
-Be active with the Corsairs! Even if you only have a few left, the scouting information you get is invaluable. One especially important thing to take note of is the Hive timing. When he's going for the Hive tech, you should go for the timing attack before they can get the Defiler or Cracklings.
-If you didn't already know, remember to trap a Probe for Sair Stacking!
I was able to put together this build order by watching some reps, watching a lot of PvZ VODs and playing a lot on ICCUP (not recently tho D;). If there's anything I forgot to add, any questions, or corrections from those of higher skill levels, please free to ask/give input!
now you can imitate Bisu lololol 8D
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I'm glad I'm not a zerg right now.
Edit: This is a really detailed guide, thanks!
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Very very nice summary of the new era pvz build :D
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Nice, I really like this because you explain each step and the motivations. It also feels more flexible than the rigid BO's. It will help me get my game plan straight.
I try to get my robo ASAPly for the shuttle and obs, soon after archives. Is it worth it to cut a gateway for this so I can do a zeal drop or storm drop?
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10387 Posts
On February 20 2011 14:02 J.Dong wrote:
Nice, I really like this because you explain each step and the motivations. It also feels more flexible than the rigid BO's. It will help me get my game plan straight.
I try to get my robo ASAPly for the shuttle and obs, soon after archives. Is it worth it to cut a gateway for this so I can do a zeal drop or storm drop?
It depends. Delaying the sixth gate will weaken your second timing attack, and delay your third. If the Zerg went for a mass Hydra composition, then you run the risk of just dying to a mass Hydra attack. However going for such an early drop harass can pay off beautifully, so if you feel like you can make the risk pay off for itself by all means go for it (just don't make it your standard build lol)
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nice writeup. i disagree with a few things though.
-1+ air weapons should be researched immediately after zealot speed, before templar archives and more gateways. The point is to do a quick 1+zealot attack, followed up by air control, and a slow 1+ air will get overwhelmed by mass muta/scourge counters.
-2nd gas timing is pretty important, should be right after the stargate.
-imo a robotics should be built after 4th gateway vs 3hatch spire>5hatch followup that isnt muta. If hes opening muta, he will have to stick to it in order to try and hold air superiority, and be unable to switch to lurkers right away. Any kind of hydralisk opening can switch to lurkers at any time, so a robotics is necessary in order to not get contained when that does happen.
If your opponent goes hydralisk and not lurkers for a while, you can just not build an observatory/observers until you need. The robotics also gives you the option of templar/dt drops.
-If your 6 zealot attack actually killed a base, you should definitely not expand right away. Zergs only option at this point is to all in with whatever forces he has at his remaining bases, hoping to overwhelm your cannons before you have storm upgraded. If you skip gateways and try to expand this just plays into his hands and could potentially give away an ez win.
-against lurkers, if you got 1+ air at the right time, you wont have to cancel it in order to get dragoon range. canceling 1+ pretty much defeats the entire purpose of this build..
you can also get a 3rd base without needing additional gateways vs both lurkers and mutalisks
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On February 20 2011 14:26 FyRe_DragOn wrote:
nice writeup. i disagree with a few things though.
-1+ air weapons should be researched immediately after zealot speed, before templar archives and more gateways. The point is to do a quick 1+zealot attack, followed up by air control, and a slow 1+ air will get overwhelmed by mass muta/scourge counters.
-against lurkers, if you got 1+ air at the right time, you wont have to cancel it in order to get dragoon range. canceling 1+ pretty much defeats the entire purpose of this build..
You might be right, originally when I wrote the previous iteration of this build, +1 Air Weapons wasn't included. The +1 Air Weapons is actually a pretty recent development in PvZ, so I haven't been able to get the exact timings from reps (had to refer to VODs). I will do some more research after PL lol
-2nd gas timing is pretty important, should be right after the stargate.
Ok, well that could be added to the other thread/Liquipedia. Unless that's really specific for this build..
-imo a robotics should be built after 4th gateway vs 3hatch spire>5hatch followup that isnt muta. If hes opening muta, he will have to stick to it in order to try and hold air superiority, and be unable to switch to lurkers right away. Any kind of hydralisk opening can switch to lurkers at any time, so a robotics is necessary in order to not get contained when that does happen.
200/200 is still a big investment, and to delay those additional 2 gates against a mass Hydra strat is really risky imo. The solution to this kind of tech switch is to just keep up with your mass Zealot/Templar to hold and then pressure so that you can see when the Lurker eggs are going to be morphing (to which you'll get a robo). Or you can get the Robo after the Sixth Gate instead
-If your 6 zealot attack actually killed a base, you should definitely not expand right away. Zergs only option at this point is to all in with whatever forces he has at his remaining bases, hoping to overwhelm your cannons before you have storm upgraded. If you skip gateways and try to expand this just plays into his hands and could potentially give away an ez win.
Disagree, you will have just killed 2 Hatcheries, a bunch of drones and units if your attack was successful. His production capability will be utter shit at that moment, and your 4 gates production should be enough to hold off any attack by him (remember you have your sair fleet too, so you can go around killing his ovies too to limit his production).
you can also get a 3rd base without needing additional gateways vs both lurkers and mutalisks
That's probably true as an alternative option (on certain maps), but generally I've seen Bisu get his third pretty late in favor of those 6 gates for that second timing attack.
anyways I haven't been able to play for a couple of weeks and this was based off an outline I made a month ago or so.. I decided to make this because I feel like a lot of ppl were unnessarily having trouble in PvZ. I need to refine it though, which I will ofc
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Ok, well that could be added to the other thread/Liquipedia. Unless that's really specific for this build..
yeah its really specific to this build, why would I talk about something else here? The one Bisu uses almost every pvz these days lol.
200/200 is still a big investment, and to delay those additional 2 gates against a mass Hydra strat is really risky imo. The solution to this kind of tech switch is to just keep up with your mass Zealot/Templar to hold and then pressure so that you can see when the Lurker eggs are going to be morphing (to which you'll get a robo). Or you can get the Robo after the Sixth Gate instead
yes it is a big investment, but it is necessary. If you see lurker eggs and you do not have a robotics, that is way too late. The zerg will be able to contain you, cut off your 3rd and kill it, or macro up to 4-5 bases at his hearts desire. Basically it gives zerg map control for the entire duration of (robotics + observatory + at least 1 ob build time), which is about 3x as long as he should in any evenly matched game. Its enough to give zerg a huge advantage.
Getting the robotics after 6th gateway works when the zerg stays on pure hydralisk for a while, but you dont know when that is going to happen and when it isnt, so its better not to put yourself into a huge disadvantage some of the time.
Again, you can just NOT build your observatory and observers until necessary when seeing pure hydralisk, which with just 2 observers (any decent toss will want at least 2) makes up more than half the gas costs of the observer tech tree, so it doesnt have to be a full investment if you dont need it. And then you get the option of making shuttles for harass too, which would have great synergy with the mass corsairs already employed.
Disagree, you will have just killed 2 Hatcheries, a bunch of drones and units if your attack was successful. His production capability will be utter shit at that moment, and your 4 gates production should be enough to hold off any attack by him (remember you have your sair fleet too, so you can go around killing his ovies too to limit his production).
OK, in your OP you did not mention killing all the fighting units zerg had. I was under the assumption that the scenario being painted was one in which you managed to kill off the sunken, a few drones, and snipe the hatchery before reinforcing zerg units came to chase or kill off your zealots.
If you somehow manage to overwhelm all zergs defense and all his reinforcements with 2gateways worth of zealots, you already won and what you do thereafter doesnt really matter, the zerg shouldve already typed gg.
On the other hand, if zerg still has hydralisks and just pumped drones for too long before massing hydras, lost the hatchery and some drones/sunkens, he still has a (small) chance of overwhelming your front with an all in hydralisk counter attack.
Any attempt to expand by the protoss will give zerg a better chance at pulling this off, by spreading the protoss forces too thinly and reducing gateway count. Corsair harass during the time of attack would not much matter either, because zergs supply would already be extremely low, so losing a few lords would not hinder reinforcements, and the decisive battle would most likely be over by the time you manage to pick off a significant amount (or theyd more likely actually be involved in that battle, because the zerg would opt to bring them in force to in ensure adequate detection for his all in attack)
or corrections from those of higher skill levels,
thats what im trying to do atm. plz respect my advice. If you disagree with it I can explain my thinking, but you dont seem to be too open to the corrections you asked for atm.
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10387 Posts
On February 20 2011 15:42 FyRe_DragOn wrote:Show nested quote +Ok, well that could be added to the other thread/Liquipedia. Unless that's really specific for this build.. yeah its really specific to this build, why would I talk about something else here? The one Bisu uses almost every pvz these days lol. Show nested quote +200/200 is still a big investment, and to delay those additional 2 gates against a mass Hydra strat is really risky imo. The solution to this kind of tech switch is to just keep up with your mass Zealot/Templar to hold and then pressure so that you can see when the Lurker eggs are going to be morphing (to which you'll get a robo). Or you can get the Robo after the Sixth Gate instead yes it is a big investment, but it is necessary. If you see lurker eggs and you do not have a robotics, that is way too late. The zerg will be able to contain you, cut off your 3rd and kill it, or macro up to 4-5 bases at his hearts desire. Basically it gives zerg map control for the entire duration of (robotics + observatory + at least 1 ob build time), which is about 3x as long as he should in any evenly matched game. Its enough to give zerg a huge advantage. Getting the robotics after 6th gateway works when the zerg stays on pure hydralisk for a while, but you dont know when that is going to happen and when it isnt, so its better not to put yourself into a huge disadvantage some of the time. Again, you can just NOT build your observatory and observers until necessary when seeing pure hydralisk, which with just 2 observers (any decent toss will want at least 2) makes up more than half the gas costs of the observer tech tree, so it doesnt have to be a full investment if you dont need it. And then you get the option of making shuttles for harass too, which would have great synergy with the mass corsairs already employed. Show nested quote +Disagree, you will have just killed 2 Hatcheries, a bunch of drones and units if your attack was successful. His production capability will be utter shit at that moment, and your 4 gates production should be enough to hold off any attack by him (remember you have your sair fleet too, so you can go around killing his ovies too to limit his production). OK, in your OP you did not mention killing all the fighting units zerg had. I was under the assumption that the scenario being painted was one in which you managed to kill off the sunken, a few drones, and snipe the hatchery before reinforcing zerg units came to chase or kill off your zealots. If you somehow manage to overwhelm all zergs defense and all his reinforcements with 2gateways worth of zealots, you already won and what you do thereafter doesnt really matter, the zerg shouldve already typed gg. On the other hand, if zerg still has hydralisks and just pumped drones for too long before massing hydras, lost the hatchery and some drones/sunkens, he still has a (small) chance of overwhelming your front with an all in hydralisk counter attack. Any attempt to expand by the protoss will give zerg a better chance at pulling this off, by spreading the protoss forces too thinly and reducing gateway count. Corsair harass during the time of attack would not much matter either, because zergs supply would already be extremely low, so losing a few lords would not hinder reinforcements, and the decisive battle would most likely be over by the time you manage to pick off a significant amount (or theyd more likely actually be involved in that battle, because the zerg would opt to bring them in force to in ensure adequate detection for his all in attack) thats what im trying to do atm. plz respect my advice. If you disagree with it I can explain my thinking, but you dont seem to be too open to the corrections you asked for atm.
alright then I'll add the gas tidbit then, thanks for that one. I still maintain that getting a Robo after the sixth Gate or Third is best though against mass Hydra, and that you should be able to see the Lurkers in time by keeping up the pressure with the Zealot/Templar army. However you're route is definitely the safest, so I'll add your thoughts into the guide though.
As for the thing about the response for killing the third, I suppose my scenario was a bit specific, so I'll edit that too. I respect your advice, me making counterarguments does not necessarily mean disrespect, but rather a way of getting you to explain further. Thanks for the remarks :D
Edit: Turns out, after looking very closely at some PvZ VODs the Nat Gas timing is definitely not right after the Stargate. So I made that re-revision, but your other points are valid (like the +1 Air Weapons).
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10387 Posts
made corrections and revisions. Still not sure on some stuff, but I'll keep looking into it!
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10387 Posts
fawk pls delete >< even worse wtffff
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Amazing that can help despite being C-. I'm B and I find this very helpful. I've heard of Bisu's new style of not getting dragoons and slowly accumulating corsairs, and using zealots to fight mass hydras for as long as possible, but I didn't know about the details.
Thanks for this!
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thanks, I haven't really learnt this build yet. I'm B- level myself but this is handy, thanks.
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I've been using this build a lot lately (read:every non 3hatch hydra pvz that I FE'd, as in 90%), and I find it to be pretty flexible.
Here are some of my thoughts on it. They totally >might< be incorrect, but worked for me on good zergs better and more regularly than any alternative I know.
1)Second cannon.
I prefer to make 2nd cannon only when 1st cannon does not cover both passage and nexus(gay maps) or zerg made 6+ lings. Now, if it's a map where if you start 2nd cannon when lings pop, and they still reach you before it finished or is near completion(so much that you can't really block with probes, and there's still a danger of 8 lings from 12hatch build), then I like to start 2nd cannon, hotkey it, and be ready to instantly cancel it once I see drones pop. Gateway/core are still delayed for 150, but at least you get the minerals back and map risk is minimized.
2)Gas spending. Here's what I do: once core finishes, stargate -> goon. Usually I have resources for both asap. Now, why dragoon before +1? First of all, having +1 too fast won't be very efficient anyway, since you actually need _some_ zealots to go with it. Second, dragoon is a cool unit that can snipe an ovie if it's still in your main\nat, and on some maps like destination, where speedlings might want to chew on your 2nd gas, unprotected by cannons, getting that goon is necessary to shoot at them, while zealot is guarding your passage. Also, goon is awesome for shooting containing lings in the legs - they might be provoked on cannons, or, if they are on hold, they're taking damage, and if zerg is microing them and you have more APM, you're getting ahead on time.
Okay, so after dragoon, on 100 gas, I get +1, then sair; then, once sairs are being produced, I'll get adun ASAP but so that it won't interfere with non-stop sair production. Thinking that, if anything, I can attack with slowlots +1 and it'll finish a bit later, but I can't really go with 4sairs vs scourge.
After adun finishes, speed - you should have the gas. After that, non-stop sair production -> 200 gas -> archives.
3)Second gas timing.
I get my second gas like this: stargate -> goon -> +1 -> 2nd gas -> pylon.
This guarantees things like non-stop sair production, speed matched with +1, +1 air before archives, archives done on 9 zealots and 300 gas for 2 HTs.
I usually have a 7zealot/1goon attack going out before speed/+1, finishing somewhere midmap, followed by 2 zealots reinforcing (whey're out few seconds after upgrades finish).
3)I get my adun when I'm about to start 2nd sair.
4)Second gate timing.
Okay, this one is totally up to you. Cut 2 probes, get an extra zealot with attack, etc. Usually I take it after adun before speed. Sometimes, with speed. Sometimes, before adun.
It depends on things like: whether you play vs overpool, 12hatch, did you make 1 cannon or 2, etc.
The "after adun before speed" works for me on the most common "play vs overpool, make 2 cannons before nexus, nexus on 15, pylon, gate".
If, for some reason, I've lost my probe scout before lair start timing, and I can't get another in, no matter what, and zerg has a cheesy reputation, I go for a variation: add 2nd gateway during core and move out with 3zealots/goon. If zerg made many lings, I might get 5zealots/goon. If probe slip attempts reveal that zerg has speedlings, I stop worrying about a hydra bust and stay back.
You'd need to cut a few probes for 2nd gateway production not resulting in delay of tech. The danger that could undermine your "scout-pressure" moveout is, if when you're moving out, he has not much lings and no speed, but when you're halfway onto map, it finishes and he has a ton of lings. Personally I see zergs who get lair->speed have it earlier, but this is my assumption.
If it happened when you reached zergs nat/3rd, you can hug hatcheries/get behind sim city/ hug minerals/whatever and have an okay trade even against superior ling count. Then, you're good since he spent too much larva on soon-useless lings; your zealot attack with +1 is no longer possible(not enough zealots), but a zealot/archon/+1sair follow-up will be deadly.
If it's 3hatch hydra, you'll meet the incoming force somewhere in the middle of map, and they'll have to micro long enough for you to add cannons.
5) Further tech timings:
Okaay, there are things to get later: namely robo, goon range, storm and your 3rd nexus,
Unfortunatelly, I'm not sure enough on any of those as far as reacting to zerg goes; at least, not sure enough to give advice. For example, in my games with Dragon, I'd try to get storm/robo after 3rd(after 6-7 gates), and he'd mostly go for hydra -> hydra/lurker; and depending on earlier game, sometimes I'd get my nexus separated and killed, sometimes I'd get it up and get a few cannons/guarded enough, but unable to transfer probes, and sometimes it'd all go nicely. Since I don't have a definitive answer, I need to play more to be able to say.
6) Using your force: same as OP. Go in if you can do damage. If you can't do damage, do not go in and try to separate the hydra force into two blocks. Once you have a sair mass that's hotkeyed with stuck probe and large enough(read:5-6) count to kill scourge, go and harrass. If your ground army is comparable to hydra army, go and attack with your force, and use the distraction to kill ovies with sairs, since hydras are shooting zealots. No more ovies and you're starting to lose battle due to zerg reinforcements? Zealots back off, sairs go raid another currently naked base; also a good time to try and slip DTs in.
As far as later game goes, aim to deny expansions while taking bases yourself; and as far as busts into sunken/lurk, you need a reaver or an estabilished economy advantage.
7)Weird stuff:
Okay, this build is hard to outline because early game is flexible. Not only your nexus timing varies on zerg builds; sometimes you need to scout with 2 probes, sometimes you play greedy and don't scout at all(maps where it beats overpool and you're still prepared to autolose to 9pool).
Also, pylons. Once your 2nd gate is done, your production round consists of 4 probes, 2 zealots and a sair. That's because 2 probe build time equals 1 zealot build time equals 1 sair build time.
That's 10 supply, so making 1 pylon regularly will regularly make you supply capped. Be ready to alternate between 2pylons and 1, or to cut 2 probes(not recommended).
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Vatican City State2594 Posts
Great post, glad you found the time to make it and thanks again for the help! This will be very useful for me on ICC!
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Thanks for the guide Arvick. i've been trying imitating the new Bisu's build but lost in the midst after the 5-6 +1 zeals push. Keep' em coming. Bookmarked this thread!
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@ gas timing hrm ya i might have made a mistake there. In the vods i watched they show gas being mined when the stargate is complete, it could have been made a bit earlier than that but I couldnt tell for sure. Most important is to get it early enough though so that you have enough to continue templar tech later.
and 1+ air should be made immediately after leg speed with the next 100 gas (aside from corsair production)
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Thanks for this excellent write-up man. I have been using this build recently and really like it; article really help clear up some of the things I was hazy on such as second gas timing and more importantly how to transition and react to the various things your opponent is doing.
Great work man.
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Made some corrections, regarding the +1 Air weapons timing and response against the Lurkers. Added some notes to the "other" and build. I'm fairly certain that there's still more I can add or correct, so its still somewhat of a work in progress  I'm glad you guys are finding this guide useful ^^
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Thats why protoss can beat me so easily (sad face) !!
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i was thinking of making this exact topic... well done
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I hate this build 
Good for Protoss though.
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GJ! Maybe I'll try someday but nowadays I never play and can't even 2gate right.
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On February 23 2011 02:08 SuperJongMan wrote:
GJ! Maybe I'll try someday but nowadays I never play and can't even 2gate right.
thanks, this was somewhat inspired by your guides in the past ^^
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ohhh yess. this is sexy.
it's frightening to imagine the APM necessary to execute the Bisu Build 2.0 though. those sairs already take up half my APM (make em, rally em, control em, watch over em), and you gotta send zealots, rally zealots, micro zealots.
that, and the timing. bisu more or less always hits at the perfect time, right before the critical mass of hydralisks. but i remember his game against hydra, where the runby and the mutalisk followup completely threw bisu's timing off and the zealot attack never came because hydras were already massing up.
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LoL. I think I faced this build a couple of times yesterday and it's pretty gay. How can I counter to this build as a Zerg. Thanks
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what i think would be a good counter is for zerg to actually go for a strong muta scourge combo at the start to prevent the zealots from dealing too much damage. +1 air weapons for toss won't be done any time soon so i think muta with scourge should deal with them quite well.
because of the slightly delayed tech, toss can't suddenly switch to a whole bunch of archons and templars to effectively combat against zerg. as zerg, i feel that getting the 4th base right after mutas are out and then transitioning into a muta hydra combo to get footing into mid game and get lurkers mid to late and eventually ultralisks.
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o.O this is new era pvz? I remember doing this exact build/plan back in early 2008, got inspired to practice it off some pro replay... think it might actually have been Bisu's rep!
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Going 0-6 against this build on Iccup.... to everyone giving their advice on this thread, FUCK YOU! + Show Spoiler +JK you guys are awesome!
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Hmm, I wonder about this. Usually when zerg's teching mutalisk against me, it just means that I won't attack >right now<. Since my usual attack timing is such that after I moveout I make 2 HTs and 4 gates, and a full produciton wave or 2 after a 3rd nexus, what I would do is just start a +2 asap, add more sairs, move out again on +1air / take 3rd, force enough hydras for zerg to survive and still harrass him with sairs, back off until +2/storm/(obs if neede), and then make a deathball push again. If zerg after muta skips hydras for lurkers, he's basically askings to get sair harrassed while zealots are being elevated to his 4th.
Basically, mutalisks, after 3hatch force you to cancel zealot attack plans, and after 5hatch they are kinda risky/slow, zealots might go for a suicide trade on drones and succeed. Anyhow, mutalisks are going to be a flying waste of gas soon after that critical mass of sair is achieved, that pretty much forces you to switch to hydras. If you try to keep on muta count...well, perhaps it might work, but I'd say it's way more work for zerg than it's work.
The regular option of "read the build and make just enough defences" into hydra/lurk deathball is still there.
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Soo painful to both watch and play against as a Zerg.
The key to fighting seems to rely most on scourge micro imo.
Its an interesting thought by op that 4 hatch before gas might fare well against it...I hadn't really thought to try it, despite it being one of my favorite builds to do...Unfortunately it is a pretty map specific opening to grab a gas 3rd that is easily defendible by ground.
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I feel that Muta/Scourge is potentially the strongest composition against +1 Sair/Speedlot, but it can horribly blow up in your face if your micro sucks. Basically, the Mutas (if timed correctly) should deflect the initial push, and if your cloning micro is good enough and the Protoss is too careless the Zerg can take out enough Sairs to have the upper hand to control the game (or even win the game outright)
If the Zerg went Mutas they will need to rely on more sunkens for defense from any attack from the Protoss, as they will not be able to get any mass Hydras or Lurkers very quickly if they didn't inflict a heavy amount of damage w/ the Muta/Scourge. Bisu vs Jaedong on Fortress is a really good example of the strength of Muta openings against +1 Sair/Speedlot (also note that Jaedong got away with no lost overlords, killed the scouting probe early and killed 2 Zealots for minimal costs) in the early to early-midgame, but then the disaster that awaits if you stay on that composition too long and don't switch to Lurkers fast enough
Of course, on 2-player maps Muta/Scourge openings are a lot weaker due to not having the free fourth, but it should still work as a safe way of surviving the first timing push.
For those Zergs at the D/D+ level who are having trouble against this build, remember to keep some sort of scouting out in the front of the Protoss's base so you can see the Zealots incoming. In all cases, 2 Sunkens and proper unit timing should always thwart the initial timing attack. The 3 Base Spire 5 Hatch Hydra build in Liquipedia is pretty outdated in regards to timings relative to this build, so you'll need to make adjustments yourself (and someone needs to update that build)
Also EthrealDeath, I'm curious about this rep you are talking about, can you upload it so I can watch it?
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and just some info, if you want +1 attack to finish with zealot speed, you can start your adun at around 20% of +1 attack completion and research leg speed right after adun is done.
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As far as mutalisks and scourge goes, do not forget the trapped probe hotkeyed with sairs. Ever since I started using it, it's been much easier to dodge hydras\scourge and snipe ovies. Subscribe to "trapped probe" today!
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On February 24 2011 17:28 ArvickHero wrote:
I feel that Muta/Scourge is potentially the strongest composition against +1 Sair/Speedlot, but it can horribly blow up in your face if your micro sucks. Basically, the Mutas (if timed correctly) should deflect the initial push, and if your cloning micro is good enough and the Protoss is too careless the Zerg can take out enough Sairs to have the upper hand to control the game (or even win the game outright)
If the Zerg went Mutas they will need to rely on more sunkens for defense from any attack from the Protoss, as they will not be able to get any mass Hydras or Lurkers very quickly if they didn't inflict a heavy amount of damage w/ the Muta/Scourge. Bisu vs Jaedong on Fortress is a really good example of the strength of Muta openings against +1 Sair/Speedlot (also note that Jaedong got away with no lost overlords, killed the scouting probe early and killed 2 Zealots for minimal costs) in the early to early-midgame, but then the disaster that awaits if you stay on that composition too long and don't switch to Lurkers fast enough
Of course, on 2-player maps Muta/Scourge openings are a lot weaker due to not having the free fourth, but it should still work as a safe way of surviving the first timing push.
For those Zergs at the D/D+ level who are having trouble against this build, remember to keep some sort of scouting out in the front of the Protoss's base so you can see the Zealots incoming. In all cases, 2 Sunkens and proper unit timing should always thwart the initial timing attack. The 3 Base Spire 5 Hatch Hydra build in Liquipedia is pretty outdated in regards to timings relative to this build, so you'll need to make adjustments yourself (and someone needs to update that build)
Also EthrealDeath, I'm curious about this rep you are talking about, can you upload it so I can watch it?
I've reformatted my computer since, so it's not there anymore
And since I haven't played BW since SC2 came out, haven't really bothered looking lately. The description though sounds so familiar.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=105834
Slightly changed version of the build for the purposes of D+, but the idea and general build seems pretty similar, except there was a slower templar archives in my case because I was going for heavier pressure with the zealots, but of course you can always build it sooner - lots of gas anyways, so no reason not to.
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On February 24 2011 19:20 JMave wrote:
and just some info, if you want +1 attack to finish with zealot speed, you can start your adun at around 20% of +1 attack completion and research leg speed right after adun is done.
thanks, this is the really precise stuff that makes this build super polished :D
On February 24 2011 22:57 Soulforged wrote:
As far as mutalisks and scourge goes, do not forget the trapped probe hotkeyed with sairs. Ever since I started using it, it's been much easier to dodge hydras\scourge and snipe ovies. Subscribe to "trapped probe" today!
I thought I had placed this info somewhere in the guide, but it's either in a really obscure place or I forgot lol ^^;;; Thanks
EtherealDeath, your +1 build is a lot different from this modern iteration of the build. Firstly, yours hits at a far later timing than this build. I'm certain of this because you start the +1 after the citadel (instead of the stargate), and you get a gateway count of up to 6 before you attack? Your build, while it could fuck up those at D/D+, wouldn't be viable at higher levels (whereas this build is used all the way to the highest of levels). The important thing to note here is the 2 Gateway count of this modern +1 rush build, which trades off a massive amount of Zealots for a really early timing that Zergs are vulnerable when they do the 3 Base Spire 5 Hatch (insert unit) build, forcing Zergs to cut back on Droning to survive Your build also omits the +1 Air Weapons upgrade that is crucial for the +1 Sair/Speedlot
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This build is designed to fight against the standard 3 hatch spire -> 5 hatch hydra right?
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Would avoiding spire altogether and going straight to four expansions hydra+1+1+ be even better against this?
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doubleupgradeobbies!
Australia1187 Posts
On February 26 2011 13:04 etheovermind wrote:
Would avoiding spire altogether and going straight to four expansions hydra+1+1+ be even better against this?
I'm sure not every variation has been tried yet so maybe it could work, but mass sairs are a bitch to defend with only pure hydras.
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On February 26 2011 13:04 etheovermind wrote:
Would avoiding spire altogether and going straight to four expansions hydra+1+1+ be even better against this?
If they scout this (most likely cuz of lack of spire meaning more corsair map control), they can tech up straight to High Templars cuz no mutalisks meaning no HT sniping and trust me a protoss player that has free reign with the High Templars can evaporate anything coming to the way.
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On February 27 2011 02:23 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 13:04 etheovermind wrote:
Would avoiding spire altogether and going straight to four expansions hydra+1+1+ be even better against this? If they scout this (most likely cuz of lack of spire meaning more corsair map control), they can tech up straight to High Templars cuz no mutalisks meaning no HT sniping and trust me a protoss player that has free reign with the High Templars can evaporate anything coming to the way.
Excellent point. I agree.
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An update regarding the 4th Zealot timing
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if zerg skips the spire protoss can do a big fat dragoon templar push and roll zerg. the reason protoss is making the corsairs is to defend their templar from the muta snipe. with no spire, protoss just goes back to 2 control groups of goons with 4 hts +2 timing attack and roll zerg with no corsairs needed.
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I have been looking at recent games of PvZ, the Zerg usually tries to rush straight into 4th expo with limited defence, I was wondering if staying on third base and get those fast upgrades that might be able to stop the "invincible" forces of Zealots army with +1/+1 Hydralisks. Until you repeled the Zealots forces, don't think about taking another expansion.
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if you want to see examples of zerg staying on 3 base and surviving, you can refer to any PvZ on Benzene or Bloody Ridge
Granted, Zergs seem to take their fourth later in comparison to before on 3+ player maps, but if a Zerg can take that natural of another base and hold it, then there's no reason to not take that fourth rather quickly
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As far as i know, fe P makes corsair to see what zerg makes to adapt, meaning koreans belive it is almost imperative to play that way.
As far as i know, the ideal situation is to keep probe alive till stargate is done, then get out to scout the expansion in case the tech was hidden there.
That bo is almost auto death if zerg sees the zealots and rushes to lurk/scourge contain. Basicly you will lose since you will need to get 3 way tech before you can get out (ht/storm+range goons+obs). giving zerg enought time to take 4 expos and outmacro you.
im not saying its a bad build, im saying you cant use it as a standart.
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On March 08 2011 03:25 iloveav wrote:
As far as i know, fe P makes corsair to see what zerg makes to adapt, meaning koreans belive it is almost imperative to play that way.
As far as i know, the ideal situation is to keep probe alive till stargate is done, then get out to scout the expansion in case the tech was hidden there.
That bo is almost auto death if zerg sees the zealots and rushes to lurk/scourge contain. Basicly you will lose since you will need to get 3 way tech before you can get out (ht/storm+range goons+obs). giving zerg enought time to take 4 expos and outmacro you.
im not saying its a bad build, im saying you cant use it as a standart.
if zerg tries to contain with scourge and lurker all protoss has to do is delay the lurkers with his +1 zeals as long as possible from getting to his front door. then by the time they are there obs wont be far from out, 6 +1 corsairs kill the scourge and 1 dt cleans up the lurkers lol.
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Original bisu build came as a hard counter to fast lurker contain (and also as a good option against 3hatch muta). Both were really popular back then. Zerg can't really set up a lurker contain that can hold sair/dt/obs without sacrificing so much economy that it loses it's meaning.
Basically zerg still needs scourge earlier - cheapier than spores, saves ovies until sairs reach ~count 6; but once it's up, zerg also needs a hydra mass potent enough to block ovie sniping; overlords need to have speed(basically, all nearby overlords will be sniped anyway, and you need to bring new ones); and the lurkers themselves - you need a sizeable count not to get run over by zealots alone.
That's just too much gas. Not getting spire will get more drones killed and first DTs alone could roughen you up quite a bit.
Today I saw a 5hatch hydra opening, where 5th wasn't done, and zerg cut spire + got den/saved 3 larva for it. Killed me - I did scout it but thought I'd have enough anyway and didn't add a single extra count. Oh well, it's scoutable(by sair), anyway - and zerg cut a lot of drones for it. If I just added ~2 extra cannons and didn't try to fight hydras with zealots until extra gateways kicked in, and abused the fact that hydras weren't at home more, I'd roll that over.
What helped the zerg was that I mistook lot of triple eggs at time for mutalisk timing and started cannons in main. Oh well, I should've trusted seeing 4 hatches/no gas at nat. Thought there was gas at 3rd and I did not scout it; lair was up pretty early too -_-.
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On March 08 2011 05:15 Soulforged wrote:
Original bisu build came as a hard counter to fast lurker contain (and also as a good option against 3hatch muta). Both were really popular back then. Zerg can't really set up a lurker contain that can hold sair/dt/obs without sacrificing so much economy that it loses it's meaning.
Basically zerg still needs scourge earlier - cheapier than spores, saves ovies until sairs reach ~count 6; but once it's up, zerg also needs a hydra mass potent enough to block ovie sniping; overlords need to have speed(basically, all nearby overlords will be sniped anyway, and you need to bring new ones); and the lurkers themselves - you need a sizeable count not to get run over by zealots alone.
That's just too much gas. Not getting spire will get more drones killed and first DTs alone could roughen you up quite a bit.
Today I saw a 5hatch hydra opening, where 5th wasn't done, and zerg cut spire + got den/saved 3 larva for it. Killed me - I did scout it but thought I'd have enough anyway and didn't add a single extra count. Oh well, it's scoutable(by sair), anyway - and zerg cut a lot of drones for it. If I just added ~2 extra cannons and didn't try to fight hydras with zealots until extra gateways kicked in, and abused the fact that hydras weren't at home more, I'd roll that over.
What helped the zerg was that I mistook lot of triple eggs at time for mutalisk timing and started cannons in main. Oh well, I should've trusted seeing 4 hatches/no gas at nat. Thought there was gas at 3rd and I did not scout it; lair was up pretty early too -_-.
the original bisu build isn't designed to hard counter lurkers. because before that, protosses spent their first 150 gas on a citadel instead of a stargate for a fast +1speedzeal rush without corsair support. so zergs just went for this 3 hatch mutalisk timing that would destroy this speedzeal push and since p wouldn't have enough anti-air, the mutas could basically harass like crazy until he could have a massive economy.
the bisu build was the other way around, focusing alot on corsair production and not going for a +1speedzeal attack but to go for extreme harass. since zerg at that time didn't have overlord speed, he would have to slowly clump all his overlords to one place and that left holes in his bases to sneak dts in to kill off drones or whatever. so basically, the bisu build was designed to hard counter this 3 hatch muta play through the usage of the corsair-cannon combo long enough to stall him for templar tech and basically just harass him all game long.
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I did not say just lurkers, but lurker contains. That and 3hatch muta were common options for zerg at the time, and both were pretty weak against bisu build: you mentioned the muta option, but as far as lurker contain, protoss with 2nd gas during core could tech robo and archives at same time, while still pumping sairs and keep the harrass. At that time, bisu would often literally take his 3rd nexus off first 2 DTs(maps like peaks of baekdu). It was as a response to that that zergs started to go for faster lair and grab both den/spire(after a period of 9pool speed and 3hatch hydra allins).
Who I'm writing this for isn't you, but iloveav, who mentioned lurkers owning the new variation. Well, it doesn't; even if there's less gas, dt/obs are a step away, and we aren't commited to initial zealots having to deal ton of damage.
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I've beaten some B+/A- zergs with varaitions to this strat.. pretty much love it!
In my experience a good counter to this is pretty simple for the zerg -->hydra+sunken+sim city
This build is pretty easy to scout because you see the forge spining really early +ling/ol scouting for zealot and gateway count as much as possible. Maps like FS you want to put 2 sunkens at third and 1 at natural with good sim city.. and have a handful of hydra out for the zealot speed + 1 attack
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Also agree with all the comments FyRe_DragOn made on this first page, at least thats how I do my build
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This build functions like 2port wraith; wraiths (air) forces hydras, bio (small units) absolutely destroy hydras. Primary difference is that sairs can't kill drones and instead only harass ovies.
While lurkers are supposedly the counter, it also means that Z gets much fewer mutas (mutas are countered by sairs anyways), which means more storms (which also ravage hydras). Also, lurker contains still don't deal with ovie harass/map control by sairs.
Only issue I see is sunken breaking with hydra support, but zealots are relatively powerful against sunkens with their small size and ovie harass should help supply block the zerg.
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I bump this, asking fellow protoss players to try out something like this, which lately had been working wonders for me:
1)+1 before stargate. If you cut like half a probe for earlier gas, or you got away with 1 cannon, you can still get 150 gas on core completion despite having started +1 already.
2)Stargate -> 2nd gas -> citadel -> first sair -> 2nd gateway -> speed -> 2nd sair -> +1 air attack
3)Move out with either 5 or 7 zealots. Five will reach the opponent a little bit before +1 kicks in, but if there's no defences, why not? Unless there is a speed ling threat, you can deal plenty damage and 15 seconds into the fight it'll finish. If there are speedlings, either stay back, or just hug some wall mid map for those 15 seconds, there are ways to win time/save zealots if it's only a short waiting time.
This build usually cuts the goon, unless you want to get it after you start sair. By the time you decide to start +1 ground, zerg usually has lair recently started: if he hasn't, it is most probably not a 3hatch lair build, so you might as well change the plan.
Overall cost is that later goon, you make the investment to +1 earlier and that might backfire against some misscouted 4 hatch hydra or even a 3hatch bust. Another issue is possible delay on first sair for a little while, though in most cases I get stargate instantly. Haven't checked all the possible situations, such as nex before cannons vs overpool, etc - but 15nexus after 2cannons clears out just fine.
The benefit is, you have +1/speed finished at 07:00 instead of something like 07:40. If zerg gets away with early low ling count, like they occasionally do, and later cuts drones and starts getting hydras, with great timing, they could get away with no or nearly no sunkens and prepare a counter-attack soon - that is, vs a +1 after stargate timing. Pretty sure most top protosses, doing this build, experienced this situation once in a while.
The 07:00, vs a 5hatch-oriented build, comes at a much scarier timing. It's basically hard for zerg to afford the defence/hydras/wall evo chambers, and even if they do, their economy is damaged even before the attack. If the zerg got away with only 6 lings, he'll usually just barely get 2sunkens/2-3 hydras per base, so if you adequately pressure with 4 zealots(standard speed should be finishing, though, so careful), you'll be able to damage economy and get some ground for mid game. I, personally, find that if I did not force zerg to make 2 sunkens per passage, it can get really hard to hold 3rd later, so hopefully this helps people with issues like mine.
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some zerg needs to step up and make a guide like this ) :
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oh yeah! i had totally forgotten about that guide! shame on me ) :
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Sounds like there needs to be a revised update to that ZvP guide lol, 09 seems so long ago..
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i'm actually quite curious though. what's the best way to counter this? because this timing attack does more than just that initial damage but the amount of threat it has against zerg. i.e. being forced to make more sunkens, which means using more drones at that critical point in the larvae to unit transition.
if i add more sunkens, my econ is quite significantly delayed and i cannot sustain a 5 hatch hydra production. if i were to move right into lurkers, then i will need the third gas very fast, possibly halfway of lurker tech completion. this means using even more drones and possibly reach a very weird drone count.
for this short period of time that i turtle, p can take a third gas and the lurker contain with hydra-ling isn't as effective because even if he spends all his storms on the lurkers, his 3 base economy gives him way more army size to deal with my remainin army. this effectively delays my 4th base because i need to keep replacing my lurkers and my army.
i have seen that the best and most effective counter is the 4 hatch muta but it requires so much multi-task and coordination, something that i do not have at this point.
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i really dont think any type of muta build counters this. neither does lurker contain, because the corsairs force zerg to have units in his base as well as at the contain, protecting overlords and defending from potential dt drops, which would be very effective with minimal units at home.
toss can get a 3rd base pretty quickly on FS, and its not a good idea for zerg to contest that because toss will have both storm and corsairs ( air and ground defence) with only 2 narrow choke points to defend, and if toss puts 2 zealots holding position at the ramp of the 3rd, his whole army can sit outside the natural and still protect the 3rd base in time in case of an attack.
Good options imo are to open with hydralisks, then tech to lurkers and turtle to hive, as illustrated by hero in his MSL game vs grape recently, or to take a 4th immediately before using any tech, and mass hydralisks off 7 hatches, also illustrated by hero in his recent MSL game vs snow. I dont think that would be as good of an option on FS as it was on circuit breaker though, because on circuit the 3rd base is vulnerable and can be contested by a ground army, where on FS as mentioned above it cant. So the best option on FS is simply to defend and take the game to a point where protoss has to expand past his initial 3 bases.
edit: i have also revised my opinion on the robotics timing for this build. If you scout hydralisk first u can have 6gateways before robo and still be fine even if zerg goes speed > lurker aspect > range. If you scout lurker first though, obviously make a robotics on 4 gates. Getting the robotics before 6gates vs hydralisks (or mutalisk) is only a good idea if you are going for a dt drop.
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will having additional spores to protect overlords be a better idea? since you will need quite a few hydras to hold off that massive corsair fleet, it will probably take quite a whole lot more hydras that could be used in the battle front.
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I'm sorry if this is too much, but can anyone provide some replays of this build. I tend to learn better if I see something done before me as well as reading it instead of just reading it. ^^;
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updated the build a bit.. not completely up to the most modern iteration used in progames, but I tried
as for replays.. I'll try looking for some lol, but my hands are a bit slow so I don't execute this build perfectly : P
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You should also add in the all-in variation of 4 gates where you delay the second and plant down all three once your stargate is approx mid-way. However, this is only strong on open maps where it is quite hard to have a completely tight simcity like Bloody Ridge, Python and Longinus.
If your opponent opens for fast hydra lurk, then you are dead but if he goes mutas, then you are in a good spot to win it right there. Use your zeals to distract the mutas away from your base and net as many drone kills as well as structure kills i.e. spire, hatchery.
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On May 18 2011 14:22 JMave wrote:
You should also add in the all-in variation of 4 gates where you delay the second and plant down all three once your stargate is approx mid-way. However, this is only strong on open maps where it is quite hard to have a completely tight simcity like Bloody Ridge, Python and Longinus.
If your opponent opens for fast hydra lurk, then you are dead but if he goes mutas, then you are in a good spot to win it right there. Use your zeals to distract the mutas away from your base and net as many drone kills as well as structure kills i.e. spire, hatchery.
I alluded to that variant in the sections pertaining to 3 Hatch Hydra and 4 Hatch No Gas, but I guess I should add that tidbit to the OP.
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I think going this against 4 hatch no gas is a bad idea since you will require storm asap. But I don't know. Is it in time before he masses hydras?
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10387 Posts
On May 19 2011 11:04 JMave wrote:
I think going this against 4 hatch no gas is a bad idea since you will require storm asap. But I don't know. Is it in time before he masses hydras?
It's not very good against 4 Hatch No Gas, I did say that you should get a fast Storm to deal with that strategy. However, should the Zerg try to drone hardcore and only make very few Hydras to pressure, you should be able to take out his paltry Hydra/Zergling force and possibly hit a good timing. But that's really a coinflip, so delaying Leg Speed in favor for a faster Archives/Storm is usually the better choice
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im having trouble using this vs zerg that play extremly defensive, once they deffend the 1st push usually hive is in the making, and is nearly impossible to take my 4th gas...
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10387 Posts
On May 19 2011 11:31 XenOsky- wrote:
im having trouble using this vs zerg that play extremly defensive, once they deffend the 1st push usually hive is in the making, and is nearly impossible to take my 4th gas...
When you see that kind of greedy fast tech play with a super fast fourth, the best option is to preserve your initial Zealots and take a third off 4 Gateways, and grabbing more bases quickly while harassing with elevator drops. Post troops around the expansions you are making, because if you don't you'll probably end up losing them to a bunch of Zerglings. The only way to be really sure if they are going for this kind of super greedy play is if they get 3+ sunkens/spore and go Muta. Refer to Bisu's recent games on Neo Aztec for this..
Should add this to the OP.. I'll do that soonish
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On May 19 2011 11:37 ArvickHero wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 11:31 XenOsky- wrote:
im having trouble using this vs zerg that play extremly defensive, once they deffend the 1st push usually hive is in the making, and is nearly impossible to take my 4th gas... When you see that kind of greedy fast tech play with a super fast fourth, the best option is to take a third off 4 Gateways, and grabbing more bases while harassing with elevator drops. Post troops around the expansions you are making, because if you don't you'll probably end up losing them to a bunch of Zerglings. The only way to be really sure if they are going for this kind of super greedy play is if they get 3+ sunkens/spore and go Muta. Refer to Bisu's recent games on Neo Aztec for this.. Should add this to the OP.. I'll do that soonish
it was pretty much what i was thinking... but instead of multiple drops, i was making earlier reavers to break the sunken/spore line..
from now on, i will harass with this shuttles instead of trying to break with reavers, thanks for the advice.
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10387 Posts
On May 19 2011 11:41 XenOsky- wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 11:37 ArvickHero wrote:On May 19 2011 11:31 XenOsky- wrote:
im having trouble using this vs zerg that play extremly defensive, once they deffend the 1st push usually hive is in the making, and is nearly impossible to take my 4th gas... When you see that kind of greedy fast tech play with a super fast fourth, the best option is to take a third off 4 Gateways, and grabbing more bases while harassing with elevator drops. Post troops around the expansions you are making, because if you don't you'll probably end up losing them to a bunch of Zerglings. The only way to be really sure if they are going for this kind of super greedy play is if they get 3+ sunkens/spore and go Muta. Refer to Bisu's recent games on Neo Aztec for this.. Should add this to the OP.. I'll do that soonish it was pretty much what i was thinking... but instead of multiple drops, i was making earlier reavers to break the sunken/spore line.. from now on, i will harass with this shuttles instead of trying to break with reavers, thanks for the advice.
The problem with getting Reavers to bust in response to turtle play is that it's pretty much all-in, since you have to either go for a strong economy to keep up with the Zerg, or commit to a bust (not both). If you're interested in busting the Zerg Splash-toss style with Reavers, open Sair-Reaver first and quickly add many gates+Templar tech for Storm. I think Stork vs Jaedong on Aztec is a good example of such an all-in.
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If you cannot bust him with the initial zealots and you were on 2 gateways, then you need to rush a 3rd base. 4 base zerg is still manageable with 3 base. Depending on his unit composition, you should adjust your units as well.
Depending on his lurker timing, you can probably even get a fourth and mass up a nice goon ht army that will be very hard to stop.
Once you establish a 4 base gas, then going reavers becomes increasingly strong to break defenses, harass as well as for supporting your confrontations.
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just watched a game of JaeHoon, where he gets arbiters, doesnt seems like a bad idea given the fact that the protoss already has stargate/archvies and a good amount of corsairs to protect the arbiter... a huge recall on his main is in theory viable... (against 4 gas fast hive).
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10387 Posts
On May 19 2011 16:47 XenOsky- wrote:
just watched a game of JaeHoon, where he gets arbiters, doesnt seems like a bad idea given the fact that the protoss already has stargate/archvies and a good amount of corsairs to protect the arbiter... a huge recall on his main is in theory viable... (against 4 gas fast hive).
My theory with Arbiter play is that Protoss must plan well in advance to use it effectively, because the timing of a Recall would be most effective before or soon after Hive finishes, which then the effectiveness of a recall rapidly diminshes after that timing. So I'm thinking getting a Tribunal before or with a third would be the most effective way of doing it, along with researching Arbiter energy first and then Recall.
There's also the other side of the Stargate tech tree, which is the Fleet Beacon. Players such as Kal and Violet (I think) were able to preserve their Corsairs well, and busted the Zerg Simcity/Lurker fields with Dragoons and DWeb.
Just some things that show that PvZ still has room to grow strategically.. we may see these as semi-standard late-game strategies in the future ^^
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thanks for the insight.
and happy birth day.
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Bumping this, just wanted to ask around for optimal responses to zergs who:
Builds great simcity, uses mutalisks to hold off the initial zealot attack while grabbing a quick 4th, and then transitions back into mass hydralisks. Yes, zealot templars are good against mass hydralisks, but a 4 base 7/8 hatchery zerg pumping hydras is just overwhelming at times, and hydra production can begin fairly quickly after the 4th hatch is done, with around 10 drones mining minerals (you'll have lots of left over min from the initial muta/scourage). By the time the zerg attacks, its almost impossible to have a mixed army of goons, templars and zealots.
Anyone know of any good counters to this? The one I use currently is just a fast third off of 4 gates and then making pure templar/zealots til my third gas comes online. That's around the time the hydras hit, and if I win that battle, then I'll most likely be able to make a protoss "deathball". If we end up trading armies, I'm usually on the backfoot.
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I would think that you will have to constantly harass the drone line/snipe overlords while posing the threat with your deathball in order to come out ahead since drone/ovie production is sacrificing the potential hydra/zergling production. Also, you should also add a speed shuttle with 2 reavers to your deathball. They are surprisingly useful if you can keep your eye on the shuttle and such.
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@renzy
I think at this stage you should start a new thread and post a replay.
But heres some stuff anyway.
1. There is no counter.
2. 4 gates then 3rd nexus is not advised by me.
3. Dont look for a drastic change to standard. Simply delay your robotics a bit because you know that lurkers are delayed due to the fact he got mutas first.
Furthermore, the op guide is really good:
Buy 2 archons with your first 4 hts. Get a cannon at both mineral lines. Also, probably commit with your initial zealots, send 2 to the main to disrupt mining, use the rest to attack the nat. If you pull back with your zealots, they will just get attacked by the mutas anyway and then the mutas will be closer to your base after the zealots die so better to commit and keep the mutas at bay for as long as possible.
At this point hopefully you have 6 gates recently completed. Look to take your 3rd nexus then get your robo. Next get obs and 8 gates. Then 4th nexus. Then 5th nexus.
Mutas first means delayed hydras or lurkers. The robo timing I mention above should be good. Get 2 cannons at your third incase zerg goes muta then lurker directly without hydras inbetween and to help against lings.
You could also throw in a storm drop (shuttle before observer). This is always viable but is especially powerful against what you outline.
But yeah post a replay in a new thread if you want people to give you more meaningful advice, or get some guys to obs you in game.
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Hmm check this BvJ out:
It appears that even though JD held Bisu off, he just kept attacking and attacking. Perhaps it was also due to the map and how easy it was for Bisu to hold a third. I think the key is to keep forcing him into making more mutalisks and to make a hydra transition unfavourable i.e. attacking before the hydras get mass.
If you note that his natural gas timing is late, then even more pressure will force mutalisks because of the lack of gas to get lurkers fast in order to defend the attacks.
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10387 Posts
BvJ on Fortress was, imo, Bisu's victory mainly because Jaedong was using the wrong strategy on Fortress, due to how difficult it is to get a safe simcity defense on Fortress, the wide perimeter of bases making it easy for Protoss to harass, the open center making it easy for Protoss to fight Lurkers and the easy, safe expansions Protoss can secure. Not to mention difficult for Zerg to secure Fifth/Sixth bases...
As for dealing with 4base Hydra pump, just know that if you can hold it off without sustaining many losses, you will almost definitely win the game if you keep up your macro and micro well. The key is to stay close to your expos, and use Cannon/Storm/Zealot to repulse any Hydra attack. If he can't do much, you're quite ahead.
Third off of 4gates is pretty risky using +1 Sair/Speedlot, but doable. I would rather recommend to do such an expo timing off of modern Sair/DT instead, which one day I'll get around to write I guess lol..
bleh PvZ has changed a bit since I initially wrote this guide lol.. I need to study some more games and update this
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On June 30 2011 08:55 ArvickHero wrote:
BvJ on Fortress was, imo, Bisu's victory mainly because Jaedong was using the wrong strategy on Fortress, due to how difficult it is to get a safe simcity defense on Fortress, the wide perimeter of bases making it easy for Protoss to harass, the open center making it easy for Protoss to fight Lurkers and the easy, safe expansions Protoss can secure. Not to mention difficult for Zerg to secure Fifth/Sixth bases...
As for dealing with 4base Hydra pump, just know that if you can hold it off without sustaining many losses, you will almost definitely win the game if you keep up your macro and micro well. The key is to stay close to your expos, and use Cannon/Storm/Zealot to repulse any Hydra attack. If he can't do much, you're quite ahead.
Third off of 4gates is pretty risky using +1 Sair/Speedlot, but doable. I would rather recommend to do such an expo timing off of modern Sair/DT instead, which one day I'll get around to write I guess lol..
bleh PvZ has changed a bit since I initially wrote this guide lol.. I need to study some more games and update this
So what type of strategy should JD have used instead? Wider natural choke maps seem to favour muta transitions more because of your inability to hold off the timing attack with hydras and sunkens alone and the mutas still arrive before the corsairs have mass.
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imba bo ,but im not sure if the ht come more later
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OMG THIS GUIDE IS SO PRO!!!!1111!!1!!!11EXCLAMATION!!!11!1ONEONEONENEEE!!!1!! lol
User was warned for this post
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10387 Posts
On July 01 2011 15:11 JMave wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2011 08:55 ArvickHero wrote:
BvJ on Fortress was, imo, Bisu's victory mainly because Jaedong was using the wrong strategy on Fortress, due to how difficult it is to get a safe simcity defense on Fortress, the wide perimeter of bases making it easy for Protoss to harass, the open center making it easy for Protoss to fight Lurkers and the easy, safe expansions Protoss can secure. Not to mention difficult for Zerg to secure Fifth/Sixth bases...
As for dealing with 4base Hydra pump, just know that if you can hold it off without sustaining many losses, you will almost definitely win the game if you keep up your macro and micro well. The key is to stay close to your expos, and use Cannon/Storm/Zealot to repulse any Hydra attack. If he can't do much, you're quite ahead.
Third off of 4gates is pretty risky using +1 Sair/Speedlot, but doable. I would rather recommend to do such an expo timing off of modern Sair/DT instead, which one day I'll get around to write I guess lol..
bleh PvZ has changed a bit since I initially wrote this guide lol.. I need to study some more games and update this So what type of strategy should JD have used instead? Wider natural choke maps seem to favour muta transitions more because of your inability to hold off the timing attack with hydras and sunkens alone and the mutas still arrive before the corsairs have mass.
Yea, if you wanted to 4base turtle on Fortress you'd almost NEED open up Mutas.. but doing so is veryyy risky nowadays, and you see it backfire terribly on Jaedong once he lost air control. Fortress is simply not a good map for 4 Base turtling.. in fact Fortress seems to suit 3base mass Hydra play instead, due to the open center, rich center expoes and difficult expoes for Protoss to hold against midgame aggression (except for islands, but Zerg should just get drop in that case lol..). But considering how +1 Speedlot/Sair is almost a hard counter to mass Hydra/Muta play, idk haha..
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I didnt see if anyone posted a link to rep, could someone do that for me? I'd love to learn this build since EVERY zerg it seems go for 3 spire 5 hatch xD
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Bumping this.
After a very long BW hiatus, I want to get back onto the ladder, playing the only game where you get maximum satisfaction when you win
So I want to use this build for PvZ. One question: I've watched a few recent Bisu vods (Bisu vs Zero, Bisu vs Songduri). He seems to get the +1 air weapons as soon as possible with a relatively late +1 ground weapons. In Bisu vs Songduri for example I only saw the forge spinning when the leg enhancements upgrade was almost done. So his build goes something like this:
Forge FE
2nd gas after cybernetics
@100% core = Stargate
@150 gas = Citadel
@100% stargate = Corsair
@100% citadel = Zealot speed
@100 gas = +1 Air weapons
@100 gas = +1 ground weapons
What's up with the much later +1 ground weapons? Also, when attacking the zerg with your first ~6 zealots, is it better to try to kill as many drones as possible or try to kill as much of his army as possible?
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10387 Posts
A good portion of this guide is outdated so I need to go back and revise/update/delete a fair amount. However to explain Bisu's delayed +1 ground weaps, normally when Zergs see a late +1 they'll assume DTs so it could be Bisu mindgaming the Zerg. Or he knew that most Zergs can block the timing nowadays, so he felt that it was better to simply get faster +1 air than ground. I need to rewatch the game later lol
Note that nowadays this build is normally done off 1 Gate, so most of the time Protosses are not aiming to kill the Zerg at all, unless the Zerg is doing something outrageously greedy. The 6-7 +1 Speedlots are more for early-midgame map control, and are mostly a means to keep scouting the Zerg so Protoss can reactly optimally.
Tis a busy time for me, so it could be a while before I can fully update this guide .. think of the build order as more of a very very very general guideline atm
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On October 02 2011 13:47 ArvickHero wrote:
A good portion of this guide is outdated so I need to go back and revise/update/delete a fair amount. However to explain Bisu's delayed +1 ground weaps, normally when Zergs see a late +1 they'll assume DTs so it could be Bisu mindgaming the Zerg. Or he knew that most Zergs can block the timing nowadays, so he felt that it was better to simply get faster +1 air than ground. I need to rewatch the game later lol
Note that nowadays this build is normally done off 1 Gate, so most of the time Protosses are not aiming to kill the Zerg at all, unless the Zerg is doing something outrageously greedy. The 6-7 +1 Speedlots are more for early-midgame map control, and are mostly a means to keep scouting the Zerg so Protoss can reactly optimally.
Tis a busy time for me, so it could be a while before I can fully update this guide .. think of the build order as more of a very very very general guideline atm
Will do! I really appreciate this guide and hope you can get it updated as it is always hard to find detailed builds that are up-to-date. Also, replays have been requested several times in this thread. If possible that would be great too.
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Well spotted writer22816. I believe part of the reason some Protoss players are delaying +1 ground attack currently, is due to the increased commonality of Zergs using early hydras to snipe the forge and gateway wall at the natural. The Zerg players dont necessarily commit at this point but rather expand behind this, having sucessfully upset the Protoss timings.
But ArvickHero is being too modest here. The OP is still fantastic and legit. Use it as a guide or use it word for word, its your choice.
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This thread has motivated me to put this build on Liquipedia. Obviously it's very in-progress and some stuff might be wrong, hopefully others can chip in and help.
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The main reason why all those guides are sort of useless is becouse there is a great deal of expirinece from the players writing it. This means they react decent enought to things that have not been taken into consideration, like for example map size, layout, spawning locations, etc.
I think PvZ is somewhat same as the most important part is a decent scouting. Once we have that covered, the rest is mostly automatic, and its our paractice what will determine our over all performance.
I remmber bisu and others of the same caliber beating slightly lower zergs with a good executed build, but versus zergs of the same skill (or close to it) early builds are basicly transitions to mid-late game.
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What's up with the much later +1 ground weapons? Also, when attacking the zerg with your first ~6 zealots, is it better to try to kill as many drones as possible or try to kill as much of his army as possible?
bisu wanted to focus on getting faster dts instead of a more powerful zealot attack, in the game vs zero he doesnt go for a speedzealot attack at all but goes straight for dts. vs songduri he squeezed in a small speedzlot attack first, probably to try to catch songduri offguard. hes not just not getting 1+ because he doesnt think its useful, its because hes focusing on other things (the dt and fast air control through 1+ air).
when attacking with the initial zealots, first look to take map control by reducing the zergs units; if you see that you already have map control and hes overextended himself in economy you can go in and damage/kill him. sacrificing zealots to kill drones when the zerg already has a decent defense (as opposed to just slow lings) is not a good idea, he can just retreat the drones and trap your zealots inside his base.
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10387 Posts
On October 04 2011 00:40 iloveav wrote:
The main reason why all those guides are sort of useless is becouse there is a great deal of expirinece from the players writing it. This means they react decent enought to things that have not been taken into consideration, like for example map size, layout, spawning locations, etc.
I think PvZ is somewhat same as the most important part is a decent scouting. Once we have that covered, the rest is mostly automatic, and its our paractice what will determine our over all performance.
I remmber bisu and others of the same caliber beating slightly lower zergs with a good executed build, but versus zergs of the same skill (or close to it) early builds are basicly transitions to mid-late game.
so my guide is useless? :<
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EPT
