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On February 27 2011 02:23 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 13:04 etheovermind wrote:
Would avoiding spire altogether and going straight to four expansions hydra+1+1+ be even better against this? If they scout this (most likely cuz of lack of spire meaning more corsair map control), they can tech up straight to High Templars cuz no mutalisks meaning no HT sniping and trust me a protoss player that has free reign with the High Templars can evaporate anything coming to the way.
Excellent point. I agree.
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10387 Posts
An update regarding the 4th Zealot timing
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if zerg skips the spire protoss can do a big fat dragoon templar push and roll zerg. the reason protoss is making the corsairs is to defend their templar from the muta snipe. with no spire, protoss just goes back to 2 control groups of goons with 4 hts +2 timing attack and roll zerg with no corsairs needed.
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I have been looking at recent games of PvZ, the Zerg usually tries to rush straight into 4th expo with limited defence, I was wondering if staying on third base and get those fast upgrades that might be able to stop the "invincible" forces of Zealots army with +1/+1 Hydralisks. Until you repeled the Zealots forces, don't think about taking another expansion.
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10387 Posts
if you want to see examples of zerg staying on 3 base and surviving, you can refer to any PvZ on Benzene or Bloody Ridge
Granted, Zergs seem to take their fourth later in comparison to before on 3+ player maps, but if a Zerg can take that natural of another base and hold it, then there's no reason to not take that fourth rather quickly
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As far as i know, fe P makes corsair to see what zerg makes to adapt, meaning koreans belive it is almost imperative to play that way.
As far as i know, the ideal situation is to keep probe alive till stargate is done, then get out to scout the expansion in case the tech was hidden there.
That bo is almost auto death if zerg sees the zealots and rushes to lurk/scourge contain. Basicly you will lose since you will need to get 3 way tech before you can get out (ht/storm+range goons+obs). giving zerg enought time to take 4 expos and outmacro you.
im not saying its a bad build, im saying you cant use it as a standart.
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On March 08 2011 03:25 iloveav wrote:
As far as i know, fe P makes corsair to see what zerg makes to adapt, meaning koreans belive it is almost imperative to play that way.
As far as i know, the ideal situation is to keep probe alive till stargate is done, then get out to scout the expansion in case the tech was hidden there.
That bo is almost auto death if zerg sees the zealots and rushes to lurk/scourge contain. Basicly you will lose since you will need to get 3 way tech before you can get out (ht/storm+range goons+obs). giving zerg enought time to take 4 expos and outmacro you.
im not saying its a bad build, im saying you cant use it as a standart.
if zerg tries to contain with scourge and lurker all protoss has to do is delay the lurkers with his +1 zeals as long as possible from getting to his front door. then by the time they are there obs wont be far from out, 6 +1 corsairs kill the scourge and 1 dt cleans up the lurkers lol.
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Original bisu build came as a hard counter to fast lurker contain (and also as a good option against 3hatch muta). Both were really popular back then. Zerg can't really set up a lurker contain that can hold sair/dt/obs without sacrificing so much economy that it loses it's meaning.
Basically zerg still needs scourge earlier - cheapier than spores, saves ovies until sairs reach ~count 6; but once it's up, zerg also needs a hydra mass potent enough to block ovie sniping; overlords need to have speed(basically, all nearby overlords will be sniped anyway, and you need to bring new ones); and the lurkers themselves - you need a sizeable count not to get run over by zealots alone.
That's just too much gas. Not getting spire will get more drones killed and first DTs alone could roughen you up quite a bit.
Today I saw a 5hatch hydra opening, where 5th wasn't done, and zerg cut spire + got den/saved 3 larva for it. Killed me - I did scout it but thought I'd have enough anyway and didn't add a single extra count. Oh well, it's scoutable(by sair), anyway - and zerg cut a lot of drones for it. If I just added ~2 extra cannons and didn't try to fight hydras with zealots until extra gateways kicked in, and abused the fact that hydras weren't at home more, I'd roll that over.
What helped the zerg was that I mistook lot of triple eggs at time for mutalisk timing and started cannons in main. Oh well, I should've trusted seeing 4 hatches/no gas at nat. Thought there was gas at 3rd and I did not scout it; lair was up pretty early too -_-.
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On March 08 2011 05:15 Soulforged wrote:
Original bisu build came as a hard counter to fast lurker contain (and also as a good option against 3hatch muta). Both were really popular back then. Zerg can't really set up a lurker contain that can hold sair/dt/obs without sacrificing so much economy that it loses it's meaning.
Basically zerg still needs scourge earlier - cheapier than spores, saves ovies until sairs reach ~count 6; but once it's up, zerg also needs a hydra mass potent enough to block ovie sniping; overlords need to have speed(basically, all nearby overlords will be sniped anyway, and you need to bring new ones); and the lurkers themselves - you need a sizeable count not to get run over by zealots alone.
That's just too much gas. Not getting spire will get more drones killed and first DTs alone could roughen you up quite a bit.
Today I saw a 5hatch hydra opening, where 5th wasn't done, and zerg cut spire + got den/saved 3 larva for it. Killed me - I did scout it but thought I'd have enough anyway and didn't add a single extra count. Oh well, it's scoutable(by sair), anyway - and zerg cut a lot of drones for it. If I just added ~2 extra cannons and didn't try to fight hydras with zealots until extra gateways kicked in, and abused the fact that hydras weren't at home more, I'd roll that over.
What helped the zerg was that I mistook lot of triple eggs at time for mutalisk timing and started cannons in main. Oh well, I should've trusted seeing 4 hatches/no gas at nat. Thought there was gas at 3rd and I did not scout it; lair was up pretty early too -_-.
the original bisu build isn't designed to hard counter lurkers. because before that, protosses spent their first 150 gas on a citadel instead of a stargate for a fast +1speedzeal rush without corsair support. so zergs just went for this 3 hatch mutalisk timing that would destroy this speedzeal push and since p wouldn't have enough anti-air, the mutas could basically harass like crazy until he could have a massive economy.
the bisu build was the other way around, focusing alot on corsair production and not going for a +1speedzeal attack but to go for extreme harass. since zerg at that time didn't have overlord speed, he would have to slowly clump all his overlords to one place and that left holes in his bases to sneak dts in to kill off drones or whatever. so basically, the bisu build was designed to hard counter this 3 hatch muta play through the usage of the corsair-cannon combo long enough to stall him for templar tech and basically just harass him all game long.
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I did not say just lurkers, but lurker contains. That and 3hatch muta were common options for zerg at the time, and both were pretty weak against bisu build: you mentioned the muta option, but as far as lurker contain, protoss with 2nd gas during core could tech robo and archives at same time, while still pumping sairs and keep the harrass. At that time, bisu would often literally take his 3rd nexus off first 2 DTs(maps like peaks of baekdu). It was as a response to that that zergs started to go for faster lair and grab both den/spire(after a period of 9pool speed and 3hatch hydra allins).
Who I'm writing this for isn't you, but iloveav, who mentioned lurkers owning the new variation. Well, it doesn't; even if there's less gas, dt/obs are a step away, and we aren't commited to initial zealots having to deal ton of damage.
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I've beaten some B+/A- zergs with varaitions to this strat.. pretty much love it!
In my experience a good counter to this is pretty simple for the zerg -->hydra+sunken+sim city
This build is pretty easy to scout because you see the forge spining really early +ling/ol scouting for zealot and gateway count as much as possible. Maps like FS you want to put 2 sunkens at third and 1 at natural with good sim city.. and have a handful of hydra out for the zealot speed + 1 attack
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Also agree with all the comments FyRe_DragOn made on this first page, at least thats how I do my build
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This build functions like 2port wraith; wraiths (air) forces hydras, bio (small units) absolutely destroy hydras. Primary difference is that sairs can't kill drones and instead only harass ovies.
While lurkers are supposedly the counter, it also means that Z gets much fewer mutas (mutas are countered by sairs anyways), which means more storms (which also ravage hydras). Also, lurker contains still don't deal with ovie harass/map control by sairs.
Only issue I see is sunken breaking with hydra support, but zealots are relatively powerful against sunkens with their small size and ovie harass should help supply block the zerg.
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I bump this, asking fellow protoss players to try out something like this, which lately had been working wonders for me:
1)+1 before stargate. If you cut like half a probe for earlier gas, or you got away with 1 cannon, you can still get 150 gas on core completion despite having started +1 already.
2)Stargate -> 2nd gas -> citadel -> first sair -> 2nd gateway -> speed -> 2nd sair -> +1 air attack
3)Move out with either 5 or 7 zealots. Five will reach the opponent a little bit before +1 kicks in, but if there's no defences, why not? Unless there is a speed ling threat, you can deal plenty damage and 15 seconds into the fight it'll finish. If there are speedlings, either stay back, or just hug some wall mid map for those 15 seconds, there are ways to win time/save zealots if it's only a short waiting time.
This build usually cuts the goon, unless you want to get it after you start sair. By the time you decide to start +1 ground, zerg usually has lair recently started: if he hasn't, it is most probably not a 3hatch lair build, so you might as well change the plan.
Overall cost is that later goon, you make the investment to +1 earlier and that might backfire against some misscouted 4 hatch hydra or even a 3hatch bust. Another issue is possible delay on first sair for a little while, though in most cases I get stargate instantly. Haven't checked all the possible situations, such as nex before cannons vs overpool, etc - but 15nexus after 2cannons clears out just fine.
The benefit is, you have +1/speed finished at 07:00 instead of something like 07:40. If zerg gets away with early low ling count, like they occasionally do, and later cuts drones and starts getting hydras, with great timing, they could get away with no or nearly no sunkens and prepare a counter-attack soon - that is, vs a +1 after stargate timing. Pretty sure most top protosses, doing this build, experienced this situation once in a while.
The 07:00, vs a 5hatch-oriented build, comes at a much scarier timing. It's basically hard for zerg to afford the defence/hydras/wall evo chambers, and even if they do, their economy is damaged even before the attack. If the zerg got away with only 6 lings, he'll usually just barely get 2sunkens/2-3 hydras per base, so if you adequately pressure with 4 zealots(standard speed should be finishing, though, so careful), you'll be able to damage economy and get some ground for mid game. I, personally, find that if I did not force zerg to make 2 sunkens per passage, it can get really hard to hold 3rd later, so hopefully this helps people with issues like mine.
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some zerg needs to step up and make a guide like this ) :
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oh yeah! i had totally forgotten about that guide! shame on me ) :
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10387 Posts
Sounds like there needs to be a revised update to that ZvP guide lol, 09 seems so long ago..
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i'm actually quite curious though. what's the best way to counter this? because this timing attack does more than just that initial damage but the amount of threat it has against zerg. i.e. being forced to make more sunkens, which means using more drones at that critical point in the larvae to unit transition.
if i add more sunkens, my econ is quite significantly delayed and i cannot sustain a 5 hatch hydra production. if i were to move right into lurkers, then i will need the third gas very fast, possibly halfway of lurker tech completion. this means using even more drones and possibly reach a very weird drone count.
for this short period of time that i turtle, p can take a third gas and the lurker contain with hydra-ling isn't as effective because even if he spends all his storms on the lurkers, his 3 base economy gives him way more army size to deal with my remainin army. this effectively delays my 4th base because i need to keep replacing my lurkers and my army.
i have seen that the best and most effective counter is the 4 hatch muta but it requires so much multi-task and coordination, something that i do not have at this point.
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i really dont think any type of muta build counters this. neither does lurker contain, because the corsairs force zerg to have units in his base as well as at the contain, protecting overlords and defending from potential dt drops, which would be very effective with minimal units at home.
toss can get a 3rd base pretty quickly on FS, and its not a good idea for zerg to contest that because toss will have both storm and corsairs ( air and ground defence) with only 2 narrow choke points to defend, and if toss puts 2 zealots holding position at the ramp of the 3rd, his whole army can sit outside the natural and still protect the 3rd base in time in case of an attack.
Good options imo are to open with hydralisks, then tech to lurkers and turtle to hive, as illustrated by hero in his MSL game vs grape recently, or to take a 4th immediately before using any tech, and mass hydralisks off 7 hatches, also illustrated by hero in his recent MSL game vs snow. I dont think that would be as good of an option on FS as it was on circuit breaker though, because on circuit the 3rd base is vulnerable and can be contested by a ground army, where on FS as mentioned above it cant. So the best option on FS is simply to defend and take the game to a point where protoss has to expand past his initial 3 bases.
edit: i have also revised my opinion on the robotics timing for this build. If you scout hydralisk first u can have 6gateways before robo and still be fine even if zerg goes speed > lurker aspect > range. If you scout lurker first though, obviously make a robotics on 4 gates. Getting the robotics before 6gates vs hydralisks (or mutalisk) is only a good idea if you are going for a dt drop.
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EPT
