EPT[G] PvZ +1 Sair/Speedlot - Page 2
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XenOsky
Chile2310 Posts
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nbaker
United States1341 Posts
 Good for Protoss though. | ||
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SuperJongMan
Jamaica11586 Posts
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ArvickHero
10387 Posts
On February 23 2011 02:08 SuperJongMan wrote: GJ! Maybe I'll try someday but nowadays I never play and can't even 2gate right. thanks, this was somewhat inspired by your guides in the past ^^ | ||
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holyhalo5
United States187 Posts
it's frightening to imagine the APM necessary to execute the Bisu Build 2.0 though. those sairs already take up half my APM (make em, rally em, control em, watch over em), and you gotta send zealots, rally zealots, micro zealots. that, and the timing. bisu more or less always hits at the perfect time, right before the critical mass of hydralisks. but i remember his game against hydra, where the runby and the mutalisk followup completely threw bisu's timing off and the zealot attack never came because hydras were already massing up. | ||
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[Cute]Pjnkje
Vietnam50 Posts
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JMave
Singapore1806 Posts
because of the slightly delayed tech, toss can't suddenly switch to a whole bunch of archons and templars to effectively combat against zerg. as zerg, i feel that getting the 4th base right after mutas are out and then transitioning into a muta hydra combo to get footing into mid game and get lurkers mid to late and eventually ultralisks. | ||
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EtherealDeath
United States8366 Posts
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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
JK you guys are awesome!  | ||
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Soulforged
Latvia935 Posts
Basically, mutalisks, after 3hatch force you to cancel zealot attack plans, and after 5hatch they are kinda risky/slow, zealots might go for a suicide trade on drones and succeed. Anyhow, mutalisks are going to be a flying waste of gas soon after that critical mass of sair is achieved, that pretty much forces you to switch to hydras. If you try to keep on muta count...well, perhaps it might work, but I'd say it's way more work for zerg than it's work. The regular option of "read the build and make just enough defences" into hydra/lurk deathball is still there. | ||
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sheaRZerg
United States613 Posts
The key to fighting seems to rely most on scourge micro imo. Its an interesting thought by op that 4 hatch before gas might fare well against it...I hadn't really thought to try it, despite it being one of my favorite builds to do...Unfortunately it is a pretty map specific opening to grab a gas 3rd that is easily defendible by ground. | ||
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ArvickHero
10387 Posts
If the Zerg went Mutas they will need to rely on more sunkens for defense from any attack from the Protoss, as they will not be able to get any mass Hydras or Lurkers very quickly if they didn't inflict a heavy amount of damage w/ the Muta/Scourge. Bisu vs Jaedong on Fortress is a really good example of the strength of Muta openings against +1 Sair/Speedlot (also note that Jaedong got away with no lost overlords, killed the scouting probe early and killed 2 Zealots for minimal costs) in the early to early-midgame, but then the disaster that awaits if you stay on that composition too long and don't switch to Lurkers fast enough Of course, on 2-player maps Muta/Scourge openings are a lot weaker due to not having the free fourth, but it should still work as a safe way of surviving the first timing push. For those Zergs at the D/D+ level who are having trouble against this build, remember to keep some sort of scouting out in the front of the Protoss's base so you can see the Zealots incoming. In all cases, 2 Sunkens and proper unit timing should always thwart the initial timing attack. The 3 Base Spire 5 Hatch Hydra build in Liquipedia is pretty outdated in regards to timings relative to this build, so you'll need to make adjustments yourself (and someone needs to update that build) Also EthrealDeath, I'm curious about this rep you are talking about, can you upload it so I can watch it? | ||
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JMave
Singapore1806 Posts
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Soulforged
Latvia935 Posts
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EtherealDeath
United States8366 Posts
On February 24 2011 17:28 ArvickHero wrote: I feel that Muta/Scourge is potentially the strongest composition against +1 Sair/Speedlot, but it can horribly blow up in your face if your micro sucks. Basically, the Mutas (if timed correctly) should deflect the initial push, and if your cloning micro is good enough and the Protoss is too careless the Zerg can take out enough Sairs to have the upper hand to control the game (or even win the game outright) If the Zerg went Mutas they will need to rely on more sunkens for defense from any attack from the Protoss, as they will not be able to get any mass Hydras or Lurkers very quickly if they didn't inflict a heavy amount of damage w/ the Muta/Scourge. Bisu vs Jaedong on Fortress is a really good example of the strength of Muta openings against +1 Sair/Speedlot (also note that Jaedong got away with no lost overlords, killed the scouting probe early and killed 2 Zealots for minimal costs) in the early to early-midgame, but then the disaster that awaits if you stay on that composition too long and don't switch to Lurkers fast enough Of course, on 2-player maps Muta/Scourge openings are a lot weaker due to not having the free fourth, but it should still work as a safe way of surviving the first timing push. For those Zergs at the D/D+ level who are having trouble against this build, remember to keep some sort of scouting out in the front of the Protoss's base so you can see the Zealots incoming. In all cases, 2 Sunkens and proper unit timing should always thwart the initial timing attack. The 3 Base Spire 5 Hatch Hydra build in Liquipedia is pretty outdated in regards to timings relative to this build, so you'll need to make adjustments yourself (and someone needs to update that build) Also EthrealDeath, I'm curious about this rep you are talking about, can you upload it so I can watch it? I've reformatted my computer since, so it's not there anymore And since I haven't played BW since SC2 came out, haven't really bothered looking lately. The description though sounds so familiar. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=105834 Slightly changed version of the build for the purposes of D+, but the idea and general build seems pretty similar, except there was a slower templar archives in my case because I was going for heavier pressure with the zealots, but of course you can always build it sooner - lots of gas anyways, so no reason not to. | ||
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ArvickHero
10387 Posts
On February 24 2011 19:20 JMave wrote: and just some info, if you want +1 attack to finish with zealot speed, you can start your adun at around 20% of +1 attack completion and research leg speed right after adun is done. thanks, this is the really precise stuff that makes this build super polished :D On February 24 2011 22:57 Soulforged wrote: As far as mutalisks and scourge goes, do not forget the trapped probe hotkeyed with sairs. Ever since I started using it, it's been much easier to dodge hydras\scourge and snipe ovies. Subscribe to "trapped probe" today! I thought I had placed this info somewhere in the guide, but it's either in a really obscure place or I forgot lol ^^;;; Thanks EtherealDeath, your +1 build is a lot different from this modern iteration of the build. Firstly, yours hits at a far later timing than this build. I'm certain of this because you start the +1 after the citadel (instead of the stargate), and you get a gateway count of up to 6 before you attack? Your build, while it could fuck up those at D/D+, wouldn't be viable at higher levels (whereas this build is used all the way to the highest of levels). The important thing to note here is the 2 Gateway count of this modern +1 rush build, which trades off a massive amount of Zealots for a really early timing that Zergs are vulnerable when they do the 3 Base Spire 5 Hatch (insert unit) build, forcing Zergs to cut back on Droning to survive Your build also omits the +1 Air Weapons upgrade that is crucial for the +1 Sair/Speedlot | ||
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writer22816
United States5775 Posts
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IamBach
United States1059 Posts
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doubleupgradeobbies!
Australia1189 Posts
On February 26 2011 13:04 etheovermind wrote: Would avoiding spire altogether and going straight to four expansions hydra+1+1+ be even better against this? I'm sure not every variation has been tried yet so maybe it could work, but mass sairs are a bitch to defend with only pure hydras. | ||
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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
On February 26 2011 13:04 etheovermind wrote: Would avoiding spire altogether and going straight to four expansions hydra+1+1+ be even better against this? If they scout this (most likely cuz of lack of spire meaning more corsair map control), they can tech up straight to High Templars cuz no mutalisks meaning no HT sniping and trust me a protoss player that has free reign with the High Templars can evaporate anything coming to the way. | ||
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