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BvJ on Fortress was, imo, Bisu's victory mainly because Jaedong was using the wrong strategy on Fortress, due to how difficult it is to get a safe simcity defense on Fortress, the wide perimeter of bases making it easy for Protoss to harass, the open center making it easy for Protoss to fight Lurkers and the easy, safe expansions Protoss can secure. Not to mention difficult for Zerg to secure Fifth/Sixth bases...
As for dealing with 4base Hydra pump, just know that if you can hold it off without sustaining many losses, you will almost definitely win the game if you keep up your macro and micro well. The key is to stay close to your expos, and use Cannon/Storm/Zealot to repulse any Hydra attack. If he can't do much, you're quite ahead.
Third off of 4gates is pretty risky using +1 Sair/Speedlot, but doable. I would rather recommend to do such an expo timing off of modern Sair/DT instead, which one day I'll get around to write I guess lol..
bleh PvZ has changed a bit since I initially wrote this guide lol.. I need to study some more games and update this
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On June 30 2011 08:55 ArvickHero wrote:
BvJ on Fortress was, imo, Bisu's victory mainly because Jaedong was using the wrong strategy on Fortress, due to how difficult it is to get a safe simcity defense on Fortress, the wide perimeter of bases making it easy for Protoss to harass, the open center making it easy for Protoss to fight Lurkers and the easy, safe expansions Protoss can secure. Not to mention difficult for Zerg to secure Fifth/Sixth bases...
As for dealing with 4base Hydra pump, just know that if you can hold it off without sustaining many losses, you will almost definitely win the game if you keep up your macro and micro well. The key is to stay close to your expos, and use Cannon/Storm/Zealot to repulse any Hydra attack. If he can't do much, you're quite ahead.
Third off of 4gates is pretty risky using +1 Sair/Speedlot, but doable. I would rather recommend to do such an expo timing off of modern Sair/DT instead, which one day I'll get around to write I guess lol..
bleh PvZ has changed a bit since I initially wrote this guide lol.. I need to study some more games and update this
So what type of strategy should JD have used instead? Wider natural choke maps seem to favour muta transitions more because of your inability to hold off the timing attack with hydras and sunkens alone and the mutas still arrive before the corsairs have mass.
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imba bo ,but im not sure if the ht come more later
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OMG THIS GUIDE IS SO PRO!!!!1111!!1!!!11EXCLAMATION!!!11!1ONEONEONENEEE!!!1!! lol
User was warned for this post
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10387 Posts
On July 01 2011 15:11 JMave wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2011 08:55 ArvickHero wrote:
BvJ on Fortress was, imo, Bisu's victory mainly because Jaedong was using the wrong strategy on Fortress, due to how difficult it is to get a safe simcity defense on Fortress, the wide perimeter of bases making it easy for Protoss to harass, the open center making it easy for Protoss to fight Lurkers and the easy, safe expansions Protoss can secure. Not to mention difficult for Zerg to secure Fifth/Sixth bases...
As for dealing with 4base Hydra pump, just know that if you can hold it off without sustaining many losses, you will almost definitely win the game if you keep up your macro and micro well. The key is to stay close to your expos, and use Cannon/Storm/Zealot to repulse any Hydra attack. If he can't do much, you're quite ahead.
Third off of 4gates is pretty risky using +1 Sair/Speedlot, but doable. I would rather recommend to do such an expo timing off of modern Sair/DT instead, which one day I'll get around to write I guess lol..
bleh PvZ has changed a bit since I initially wrote this guide lol.. I need to study some more games and update this So what type of strategy should JD have used instead? Wider natural choke maps seem to favour muta transitions more because of your inability to hold off the timing attack with hydras and sunkens alone and the mutas still arrive before the corsairs have mass.
Yea, if you wanted to 4base turtle on Fortress you'd almost NEED open up Mutas.. but doing so is veryyy risky nowadays, and you see it backfire terribly on Jaedong once he lost air control. Fortress is simply not a good map for 4 Base turtling.. in fact Fortress seems to suit 3base mass Hydra play instead, due to the open center, rich center expoes and difficult expoes for Protoss to hold against midgame aggression (except for islands, but Zerg should just get drop in that case lol..). But considering how +1 Speedlot/Sair is almost a hard counter to mass Hydra/Muta play, idk haha..
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I didnt see if anyone posted a link to rep, could someone do that for me? I'd love to learn this build since EVERY zerg it seems go for 3 spire 5 hatch xD
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Bumping this.
After a very long BW hiatus, I want to get back onto the ladder, playing the only game where you get maximum satisfaction when you win 
So I want to use this build for PvZ. One question: I've watched a few recent Bisu vods (Bisu vs Zero, Bisu vs Songduri). He seems to get the +1 air weapons as soon as possible with a relatively late +1 ground weapons. In Bisu vs Songduri for example I only saw the forge spinning when the leg enhancements upgrade was almost done. So his build goes something like this:
Forge FE
2nd gas after cybernetics
@100% core = Stargate
@150 gas = Citadel
@100% stargate = Corsair
@100% citadel = Zealot speed
@100 gas = +1 Air weapons
@100 gas = +1 ground weapons
What's up with the much later +1 ground weapons? Also, when attacking the zerg with your first ~6 zealots, is it better to try to kill as many drones as possible or try to kill as much of his army as possible?
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10387 Posts
A good portion of this guide is outdated so I need to go back and revise/update/delete a fair amount. However to explain Bisu's delayed +1 ground weaps, normally when Zergs see a late +1 they'll assume DTs so it could be Bisu mindgaming the Zerg. Or he knew that most Zergs can block the timing nowadays, so he felt that it was better to simply get faster +1 air than ground. I need to rewatch the game later lol
Note that nowadays this build is normally done off 1 Gate, so most of the time Protosses are not aiming to kill the Zerg at all, unless the Zerg is doing something outrageously greedy. The 6-7 +1 Speedlots are more for early-midgame map control, and are mostly a means to keep scouting the Zerg so Protoss can reactly optimally.
Tis a busy time for me, so it could be a while before I can fully update this guide .. think of the build order as more of a very very very general guideline atm
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On October 02 2011 13:47 ArvickHero wrote:
A good portion of this guide is outdated so I need to go back and revise/update/delete a fair amount. However to explain Bisu's delayed +1 ground weaps, normally when Zergs see a late +1 they'll assume DTs so it could be Bisu mindgaming the Zerg. Or he knew that most Zergs can block the timing nowadays, so he felt that it was better to simply get faster +1 air than ground. I need to rewatch the game later lol
Note that nowadays this build is normally done off 1 Gate, so most of the time Protosses are not aiming to kill the Zerg at all, unless the Zerg is doing something outrageously greedy. The 6-7 +1 Speedlots are more for early-midgame map control, and are mostly a means to keep scouting the Zerg so Protoss can reactly optimally.
Tis a busy time for me, so it could be a while before I can fully update this guide .. think of the build order as more of a very very very general guideline atm
Will do! I really appreciate this guide and hope you can get it updated as it is always hard to find detailed builds that are up-to-date. Also, replays have been requested several times in this thread. If possible that would be great too.
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Well spotted writer22816. I believe part of the reason some Protoss players are delaying +1 ground attack currently, is due to the increased commonality of Zergs using early hydras to snipe the forge and gateway wall at the natural. The Zerg players dont necessarily commit at this point but rather expand behind this, having sucessfully upset the Protoss timings.
But ArvickHero is being too modest here. The OP is still fantastic and legit. Use it as a guide or use it word for word, its your choice.
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This thread has motivated me to put this build on Liquipedia. Obviously it's very in-progress and some stuff might be wrong, hopefully others can chip in and help.
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The main reason why all those guides are sort of useless is becouse there is a great deal of expirinece from the players writing it. This means they react decent enought to things that have not been taken into consideration, like for example map size, layout, spawning locations, etc.
I think PvZ is somewhat same as the most important part is a decent scouting. Once we have that covered, the rest is mostly automatic, and its our paractice what will determine our over all performance.
I remmber bisu and others of the same caliber beating slightly lower zergs with a good executed build, but versus zergs of the same skill (or close to it) early builds are basicly transitions to mid-late game.
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What's up with the much later +1 ground weapons? Also, when attacking the zerg with your first ~6 zealots, is it better to try to kill as many drones as possible or try to kill as much of his army as possible?
bisu wanted to focus on getting faster dts instead of a more powerful zealot attack, in the game vs zero he doesnt go for a speedzealot attack at all but goes straight for dts. vs songduri he squeezed in a small speedzlot attack first, probably to try to catch songduri offguard. hes not just not getting 1+ because he doesnt think its useful, its because hes focusing on other things (the dt and fast air control through 1+ air).
when attacking with the initial zealots, first look to take map control by reducing the zergs units; if you see that you already have map control and hes overextended himself in economy you can go in and damage/kill him. sacrificing zealots to kill drones when the zerg already has a decent defense (as opposed to just slow lings) is not a good idea, he can just retreat the drones and trap your zealots inside his base.
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10387 Posts
On October 04 2011 00:40 iloveav wrote:
The main reason why all those guides are sort of useless is becouse there is a great deal of expirinece from the players writing it. This means they react decent enought to things that have not been taken into consideration, like for example map size, layout, spawning locations, etc.
I think PvZ is somewhat same as the most important part is a decent scouting. Once we have that covered, the rest is mostly automatic, and its our paractice what will determine our over all performance.
I remmber bisu and others of the same caliber beating slightly lower zergs with a good executed build, but versus zergs of the same skill (or close to it) early builds are basicly transitions to mid-late game.
so my guide is useless? :<
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EPT
