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10387 Posts
So a lot of people seem to not know what to do with their scouting info in PvZ, so I thought it'd be a good idea to throw this together so we all have a common thread to reference to. I figured I had enough knowledge to start this thread :D
This is all assuming that you placed a pylon at your nat, and if it was a 2+ player map, you built a Forge after scouting an empty main (and if it was a 4 player map, sending a second scouting probe after building the Forge)
5 Pool: Depending on how fast Protoss scouted the Zerg and how far the rush distance is, Protoss can choose to either complete their simcity or abandon the natural in favor for building a cannon in the main and 1-basing it.
In regards to the first option, Protoss will need to quickly plant 2 cannons, complete the simcity w/ a gateway and block with 5-6 probes (refer to Bisu vs 815 on FS in PL, Bisu vs Zero on Othello, Free vs Hyuk Andromeda). If you are able to complete your wall with another forge (or gate), you could get away with making only one cannon and warp in the second forge (cancelling it when the coast is clear), while getting away w/ less probes pulled (refer to Best vs Great on Dreamliner, just don't fuck up w/ the probe block.)
The other option is to warp a pylon in the main immediately and place a cannon in your mineral line, and go for either 2 gate pressure or 1 gate tech (refer to Bisu vs keke on Neo Medusa). I don't really know much about this option so someone more knowledgeable about this should enlighten us on this ^^
9 Pool Gas: Generally, speedlings will be on the way. 2 Cannons after your forge, cut probes at 15. A Nexus and Gateway at 15, and resume probe production after the Gateway. 16 pylon, gas afterwards, etc etc. Pull a couple of probes to block speedlings from darting in. Try to keep your scouting probe alive to see if he's getting speed on his lings (generally yes, but he could also be going for a retardedly fast lair). Depending on how big the hole is in your simcity, it's your choice to build another pylon or a core to fill the hole.
9 Pool: One cannon must go up for sure. If he makes 6 lings, then you will have to make 2 cannons to have sufficient defense. Nexus-Gate afterwards ofc
Overpool: I'm not exactly sure how to verify this in-game, but the proper response is Forge-Nexus, followed by a probe cut and an immediate cannon.
12 Pool: Forge-Nexus-Cannon, I'm assuming. It might be possible to get away with a Nexus first, but I'm not very sure about the timings against this build, so someone more familiar with the timings against this build speak up ^^
Liquipedia says 14 Nex/14 Forge >__>
12 Hatch: If you scouted him first, you get to have the pleasure of going Nexus-Forge-Gate (or Gate-Forge, not sure if you can do this on a normal map), If you scouted him second, going Forge-Nexus-Gate-Cannon is sufficient. If you did go Nexus first, you should skip the second pylon.
3 Hatch No Pool: I'm unfamiliar with the proper counter to this build. Doing a cannon rush is possible, and I've gotten away with going Nexus-Gate-Core-Forge against this build. Somebody more knowledgeable please enlighten us ^^
So Liquipedia says to 2 Gate after making the Nexus, but I don't ever recall seeing that in progames. Any VODs/reps on this?
I do realize that there are map attributes that allows for Protoss to be exceptionally greedy, namely maps that have an huge rush distance and/or have naturals that can be completely walled-in, or the main/nat sharing 1 small ramp (Benzene, Longinus, Triathlon to name a few), The exact details about how much Protoss can get away with, I'm not sure at all, so those with more game knowledge please input your thoughts on these map-specific things where Protoss can get away with more :D
Also regarding nat gas timings, which many people don't actually know for sure, I'm certain you build it when your Core is halfway finished, or at least before its finished preferably.
also if there are any corrections to be made (surely there is at least one lol), or things to be added, please do say so.
edit: oh.. a lot of this was already covered in Liquipedia >< I don't remember seeing that section there before, but I should've checked before I hit post D: At the very least I put in stuff about vs 5pool and map attributes that allow for greedier play >__>
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This seems like a good idea. But can you add about what you scout later. Like gas at natural means 2-3 hatch muta or w/e.
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3 Hatch No Pool: I'm unfamiliar with the proper counter to this build. Doing a cannon rush is possible, and I've gotten away with going Nexus-Gate-Core-Forge against this build. Somebody more knowledgeable please enlighten us ^^
I too am very curious about this. Can you anything to punish it or do you just go ahead and try to get insanely fast tech out or what?
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10387 Posts
All that stuff should be in Liquipedia's PvZ guide. Midgame scouting is pretty dependent on what strategy you chose (Sair/Zealot, Sair/Reaver, Sair/DT, or Sair/Dragoon).
One thing I will note though is that you should always be scouting with your corsair throughout the game, especially at D/D+/C-. I've encountered a fair number of Zergs where I scouted a lack of units and an extremely fast Hive, which usually was followed up by a bunch of cows. The first time this happened I was taken offguard and I lost to the sea of Ultras (I was more focused on expanding a lot >_>). Won every single time in the same/similar scenarios afterwards tho.
On February 01 2011 15:03 L_Master wrote:Show nested quote +3 Hatch No Pool: I'm unfamiliar with the proper counter to this build. Doing a cannon rush is possible, and I've gotten away with going Nexus-Gate-Core-Forge against this build. Somebody more knowledgeable please enlighten us ^^ I too am very curious about this. Can you anything to punish it or do you just go ahead and try to get insanely fast tech out or what?
I tried Liquipedia's suggestion of Nexus first followed by 2 gates, and I'd have to say I don't really like it :\ I felt very uncomfortable using it and felt like I would've gotten destroyed if the Zerg wasn't so bad looool. I think going for an ultrafast tech route works, and I personally am much more comfortable using it
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On February 01 2011 15:03 L_Master wrote:Show nested quote +3 Hatch No Pool: I'm unfamiliar with the proper counter to this build. Doing a cannon rush is possible, and I've gotten away with going Nexus-Gate-Core-Forge against this build. Somebody more knowledgeable please enlighten us ^^ I too am very curious about this. Can you anything to punish it or do you just go ahead and try to get insanely fast tech out or what?
I'm thinking a fast tech would work well. Since he's going 3hatch before pool, his gas will be extraordinarily late. He'll almost certainly have to make hydras to deal with your fast corsair, and if you follow it with some quick speedlot pressure he'll have to make even MORE hydras, lowering his drone count.
I've never actually played the scenario though.
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There was a very rare example of a 3hatch no pool in a ZvP in the recent Zero vs. Stork game where Stork went gate -> core before forge. The stargate was up ridiculously fast, but Stork lost because he was cutting mad corners and didn't scout Zero's ling all-in early enough. I don't remember Stork's exact build off the top of my head right now, but the forge was really late.
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Russian Federation4405 Posts
3 Hatch No Pool: I'm unfamiliar with the proper counter to this build. Doing a cannon rush is possible, and I've gotten away with going Nexus-Gate-Core-Forge against this build.
well... Stork didn't.
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Australia7069 Posts
stork was doing a weird build. if he'd just made a forge straight after his stargate he would've been fine, he just didn't expect the lings from the third so quickly. the build was probably practiced against a 12 hat, not 3 hat before pool
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On February 01 2011 15:03 L_Master wrote:Show nested quote +3 Hatch No Pool: I'm unfamiliar with the proper counter to this build. Doing a cannon rush is possible, and I've gotten away with going Nexus-Gate-Core-Forge against this build. Somebody more knowledgeable please enlighten us ^^ I too am very curious about this. Can you anything to punish it or do you just go ahead and try to get insanely fast tech out or what?
you can skip cannons and forge early on which can give you a fast nex. usually they want to build up drone count then have the option to either tech up or to suddenly pump out alot of lings.
so therefore, its really up to what you scout. if you see only 2 lings, then sending in 2 zealots to harass him is a good idea. if he is building up ling count, then teching up is the wiser option.
just another note, always be scouting him. note pool timing. its almost always good to get cannons anyway to prevent a sudden ling rush
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Mystlord
United States10264 Posts
Overpool is easily verified just by checking the pool timing in comparison to your Forge timing. I can't give you specifics, but there's a big gap between the 9 pool timing vs the overpool timing if you compare it the timing of your forge. Also, going Forge-Nexus-Canon is just a tad risky against Overpool, depending on the map, assuming that the Zerg gets 6 lings. There was a phase when Protoss tried to do Forge-Nex on every map against Overpool, and it blew up in their faces >.>
12 Pool against Protoss is terrible. You can do pretty much any variation of Forge/Nex/Cannon and come out ahead.
And against 3 hatch before pool, either 2 gate after nex skipping the forge is fine, or a fast tech transition are fine options. The thing with the 2 gate option is that the choke has to be big to accommodate the 2 gates without cramping your natural. Just remember that your goal isn't to win outright, but to deal damage with the 2 gate. Depending on the distance, it's possible to get a seal on Zerg's ramp to his natural, which is pretty much game over. Competent Zergs won't let you do that, but you want to devote the majority of his larva to Ling production instead of Drone production. If you want some VODs, I think that this transition was more popular around the era of Savior, so you might want to look back there for some more concrete examples.
As for the fast tech option, it's pretty self explanatory I think. Take map control with corsairs, and you can follow up with straight up Zealot pressure into a quick third with Templar tech.
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EPT
